fluidian Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I've gone out with a girl 4 times - the first meeting was drinks and we talked about getting together again at the end of the date. She didn't want a kiss - so it was a hug. The second time we got together, it was ~10 hours - she seemed to want to keep extending the date, but at some point, she was probably getting a bit annoyed and started some really aggressive questioning. At that point, I don't know if I really wanted to see her again, and I found out last night she was thinking the same thing - namely that 2 dates was likely the end. Needless to say, at that point there wasn't much romantic interaction or even a kiss, as it we both thought it was over. Anyhow, a few days after the second date, she called me with one of her friends, as she wanted to ask some questions about a conversation that we had had. I'm not sure if it was a round about way of trying to score a date or not (but given that she told me yesterday she wasn't planning on seeing me again after the second date - it probably was just for the info). Regardless, on that call I mentioned getting together again over the weekend (it was more of a, "what's the worst that could happen" type thing)- so we went out again on that Saturday. The 3rd meeting was 5 hours at my condo - I cooked dinner and brought in everything that she had mentioned liking on our first 2 dates. Apparently that went over well (at least that's what she said yesterday), although regardless of whether or not it went well, she seemed romantically distant, although seemed amenable to mild, occasional contact. I was on the fence, and thinking the only way I'd see her again is she asked me out. Sure enough, towards the end of this past week, she asked me out for drinks after work on Friday (yesterday). I met her last night, had a few too many drinks, and then she took me back to her apartment, gave me wine, we snuggled on the couch (she was definitely getting cozy), and we talked until 3:30 in the morning. At that point she says she wants to keep on talking, and here more of my stories, but move to her bed, because she was getting tired - fine - but she immediately paired that statement with "nothing weird", implying that it was more platonic. We chatted for another 30-45 minutes, spooned and she was holding my hands pretty close for the majority of the night. Anyhow, got up this morning pretty late, chatted a bit, and I headed out. When I was leaving, she first stated that she would give me an "awkward side hug", and then said, followed it with, "I guess I can give you a real hug". Seriously, a hug after all that? All of that happened, the night at her place, cozy, snuggling, and she wants to end with a hug and seems perhaps a bit scared of kissing (haven't actually kissed her). It's those statements which make me confused. Up until last night she was giving out no vibes about romantic interest (and actually told me it was likely done at date 2). It definitely escalated yesterday, but she wants to go for a hug...help me out! What's she thinking - romantic or platonic? Is she wanting me to move faster, is she comfortable at that pace? If it matters, she described a past relationship that seemed to be with a sexual deviant - I suppose that may make her romantically and sexually cautious. Moreover, she apologized for being a bit confrontational on our second date, and seemed to want to try to ensure that I thought that she was a good person instead of a bit$h - which makes me think that her perspective is changing a bit. Just curious to know how to proceed and your thoughts on the situation - I've been out of the dating pool for nearly a decade, so just starting to get my feet wet again.
Fhsjkfjrhsdh3646 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Just skimmed it - but if you have to wonder, you are probably in the friendzone.
smackie9 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 You do not waste your time on someone like this. You date those who treat you the way YOU want to be treated, you don't wait for it to happen, it should just happen. She isn't really ready for anything serious so you are best to bail and keep looking. Oh and here's a tip....you never go to the bedroom unless sex is going to happen. Don't be a cuddle b itch. 5
katiegrl Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 You do not waste your time on someone like this. You date those who treat you the way YOU want to be treated, you don't wait for it to happen, it should just happen. She isn't really ready for anything serious so you are best to bail and keep looking. Oh and here's a tip....you never go to the bedroom unless sex is going to happen. Don't be a cuddle b itch. LOL @ cuddle b itch.... too funny. Very true too!
preraph Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 To me she sounds like someone who is being very cautious about taking it to the next level, for whatever reason. And if she's been OLD, then that is probably the reason because both men and women have to deal with so much BS and people not being honest on OLD that it would make any prudent person want to know someone a bit before jumping into the waters. I think you should just ask her if she's had some bad experiences that are causing her to be cautious. I do think she is looking for romance, but I think she wants to make sure you're a right guy first and not just playing. 3
Author fluidian Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 Hmmm - 3 for "she's a cuddle bitch", 1 for romantic, but cautious. It would be great to get some more thoughts. If she were viewing things as romantic, would it be bad I just outright asked her if she views this as romantic or platonic? I don't see it doing any harm if it is platonic...
Vintage79 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 There's a fair chance it's slow moving romantic, but the question you have to ask is whether or not you want to deal with the interim stuff for a only a chance that it's romantic. I say that with a bit of pause - her engaging in more intimate activities is a sign of her interest, but tossing a hug your way is a bit confusing...I guess there's a chance she just wants you to man up and go for it...at least yesterday it sounds like she was at least saying that the door could be slightly open. As for out right asking about it - it depends on your interactions so far, but it's likely fine, but there's always a chance that outright asking will scare her away, or seem sufficiently non-romantic. If she's really into you, but simply being cautious, it likely won't be a problem. 1
Buddhist Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) I honestly think that after so much time together and touching, if she can't kiss you now it's not looking good. She seems to expect an inordinate amount of emotional bonding from you when you are yet to establish any kind of sexual touch. I get the impression she will be high maintenance in the extreme. And no......you don't ask a guy friend to lie on a bed with you for any reason at all. You don't even let a guy friend into your bedroom, its a no-go zone. Edited February 21, 2015 by Buddhist
losangelena Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Thoughts/questions: The second time we got together, it was ~10 hours - she seemed to want to keep extending the date, but at some point, she was probably getting a bit annoyed and started some really aggressive questioning. At that point, I don't know if I really wanted to see her again What was the nature of this "aggressive questioning?" Also, if you had doubts about seeing her again, why have you now gone out with her two more times? on that call I mentioned getting together again over the weekend (it was more of a, "what's the worst that could happen" type thing)- so we went out again on that Saturday. The 3rd meeting was 5 hours at my condo - I cooked dinner and brought in everything that she had mentioned liking on our first 2 dates. Apparently that went over well (at least that's what she said yesterday), although regardless of whether or not it went well, she seemed romantically distant, although seemed amenable to mild, occasional contact. What kind of contact do/did you guys have between dates? Had you wanted to initiate seeing her again but was waiting for her to do it? If you're not so sure about her, why invite her to your house and make her dinner? Why stock up on all the things she likes? How much interest are you showing her? I was on the fence, and thinking the only way I'd see her again is she asked me out. Sorry, I keep asking this question, but I rarely hear this kind of thing from a guy. Most guys I know if they're on the fence or not that interested, especially at the beginning, don't think about going out again with a girl. But you're willing to IF she asks you out? Sure enough, towards the end of this past week, she asked me out for drinks after work on Friday (yesterday). I met her last night, had a few too many drinks, and then she took me back to her apartment, gave me wine, we snuggled on the couch, and we talked until 3:30 in the morning. At that point she says she wants to keep on talking, and here more of my stories, but move to her bed, because she was getting tired - fine - but she immediately paired that statement with "nothing weird", implying that it was more platonic. We chatted for another 30-45 minutes, spooned and she was holding my hands pretty close for the majority of the night. Anyhow, got up this morning pretty late, chatted a bit, and I headed out. When I was leaving, she first stated that she would give me an "awkward side hug", and then said, followed it with, "I guess I can give you a real hug". Seriously, a hug after all that? Seriously? You're asking even though you say you're on the fence? Reading your story, I cannot tell how you feel about this girl, and it sounds like you can't really either. Did you want to kiss her? All of that happened, the night at her place, cozy, snuggling, and she wants to end with a hug and seems perhaps a bit scared of kissing (haven't actually kissed her). It's those statements which make me confused. Up until last night she was giving out no vibes about romantic interest (and actually told me it was likely done at date 2). It definitely escalated yesterday, but she wants to go for a hug...help me out! What's she thinking - romantic or platonic? Is she wanting me to move faster, is she comfortable at that pace? Again, from what you've described, it really does sound like you're on the fence, and I wouldn't let how she seems or does not seem to feel dictate how you feel. DO you want a romantic relationship with this woman? You describe yourself as on the fence, and that you kind of lost romantic interest after the second date, yet here you are, getting bent over her not kissing you? I'd say, figure out what YOU want, then act accordingly. Put some moves on her, be the one to dictate the speed of the relationship. See if she follows along. Or, ask (easier said than done). She keeps asking you out, so that's a sign. I generally, even when single, don't tend to get snuggly and cozy with my platonic male friends. I certainly don't let them sleep in my bed. 2
Fhsjkfjrhsdh3646 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Don't be her cuddle bitch OP, move onto the next one =P
Author fluidian Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 Hey Losangelena - thanks for the thoughtful response. Yeah - the take away - I'm torn about how I feel. There's a lot to like about her, but the general lack of romantic vibe from her is what put me on the fence. It's not that I'm conceptually not interested, I just normally get a lot more feedback along the way - flirtatious vibe, contact, etc. I went out with her on the 3rd date more because I thought there could be something there, not because I thought there was something there - it was a no harm, no foul kind of situation, where at worst it would have been a mediocre evening. I stocked up on things that she had mentioned when I invited her over for dinner - well, why not - as I said, I'm conceptually interested, but the lack of projected interest from her is what makes me question things. I figured why not - it gave me an excuse to buy stuff that wouldn't normally be on my short list at the grocery...kind of fun, regardless of how things pan out... I suppose if I see her again, I should just ramp it up and see what happens - probably better than asking her what she's thinking. If she wants it romantic, she'll be receptive, if not, well, the answer should be apparent pretty quickly. Now the question, of course, is should I even bother seeing again?
Author fluidian Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 Don't be her cuddle bitch OP, move onto the next one =P That's what I'm kind of thinking - I'm torn about whether or not to give her another shot. I never thought of myself as a cuddle bitch before...
Fhsjkfjrhsdh3646 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Hey Losangelena - thanks for the thoughtful response. Yeah - the take away - I'm torn about how I feel. There's a lot to like about her, but the general lack of romantic vibe from her is what put me on the fence. It's not that I'm conceptually not interested, I just normally get a lot more feedback along the way - flirtatious vibe, contact, etc. I went out with her on the 3rd date more because I thought there could be something there, not because I thought there was something there - it was a no harm, no foul kind of situation, where at worst it would have been a mediocre evening. I stocked up on things that she had mentioned when I invited her over for dinner - well, why not - as I said, I'm conceptually interested, but the lack of projected interest from her is what makes me question things. I figured why not - it gave me an excuse to buy stuff that wouldn't normally be on my short list at the grocery...kind of fun, regardless of how things pan out... I suppose if I see her again, I should just ramp it up and see what happens - probably better than asking her what she's thinking. If she wants it romantic, she'll be receptive, if not, well, the answer should be apparent pretty quickly. Now the question, of course, is should I even bother seeing again? No ... Move on. She invited you to sleep in her bed but not have sex with you. You are friendzoned. If she was even remotely interested in you still, she would have sent you home that night OR sleep with you. You were basically her cuddle bitch. You can't really salvage this one. Fortunately there are plenty of other women out there to date - and one of them will click with you and it will feel right.
losangelena Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 What the hell does the term, "cuddle bitch" even mean, by the way? It sounds so demeaning. There's nothing demeaning about cuddling, first of all, my BF and I do it all the time. Secondly, it's not like she forced him to get into bed. He could have left or stayed on the couch. Furthermore, if they're already in bed and that's, apparently, the international sign for "OK let's have sex," was he trying to put the moves on her? I guess I just don't understand why it seems like OP keeps on waiting to see what SHE does in order to gauge his actions. Asking us if she'd like it if he ramps up effort? We don't know! Just try it and find out. Maybe she's scratching her head right now going, man, I don't know if this guy's into me. That street goes both ways. Escalate, OP. That's the only way you'll know for sure. If she doesn't reciprocate, then you stop seeing her. End of story. 3
Fhsjkfjrhsdh3646 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) What the hell does the term, "cuddle bitch" even mean, by the way? It sounds so demeaning. There's nothing demeaning about cuddling, first of all, my BF and I do it all the time. Secondly, it's not like she forced him to get into bed. He could have left or stayed on the couch. Furthermore, if they're already in bed and that's, apparently, the international sign for "OK let's have sex," was he trying to put the moves on her? I guess I just don't understand why it seems like OP keeps on waiting to see what SHE does in order to gauge his actions. Asking us if she'd like it if he ramps up effort? We don't know! Just try it and find out. Maybe she's scratching her head right now going, man, I don't know if this guy's into me. That street goes both ways. Escalate, OP. That's the only way you'll know for sure. If she doesn't reciprocate, then you stop seeing her. End of story. Nothing wrong with cuddling.. But when you're a few dates in and she's not into you - its pretty demeaning for her to invite you into her bed (overnight) but not to have sex. You're right though - not sure if he tried escalating with her? She did say NO to "anything weird" which makes it sound like he didn't stand a chance. It's a pretty clear sign she doesn't intend to have sex with him at all - which means the whole thing is pointless. I would have just left. Run away OP. Run away from this one. Edited February 21, 2015 by barcode88
losangelena Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Alright, if she didn't want to have sex, she shouldn't have invited him in. But again, we don't know if he went for it or not. Maybe at that point, drunk and at 3:30 in the morning, sex wasn't an option—it's not exactly an ideal setting for sexytimes when you're cross-eyed and barely conscious. But, she DID ask him out for a fourth date. And invited him back to her place, gave him more wine, and cuddled and listened to his stories. Again, I don't know all women, but I would never do that with a guy who I was merely platonically interested in, it would be too weird, too intimate. To me, it felt like she set the stage for OP and he never walked on. Her quips about "nothing weird" and "side hugs" to me suggest a certain level of insecurity, downplaying her feelings, and maybe wondering how OP feels. If I brought a guy home with me, took him to bed, and all we did was snuggle, I'd wake up the next morning feeling a bit foolish, like he wasn't that into me. I could be totally wrong. Even so, I still think it would behoove the OP to square away how HE feels, and act accordingly. If she was amenable to "mild, occasional" contact, that's OP's cue to ramp it up. 4
Fhsjkfjrhsdh3646 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Alright, if she didn't want to have sex, she shouldn't have invited him in. But again, we don't know if he went for it or not. Maybe at that point, drunk and at 3:30 in the morning, sex wasn't an option—it's not exactly an ideal setting for sexytimes when you're cross-eyed and barely conscious. But, she DID ask him out for a fourth date. And invited him back to her place, gave him more wine, and cuddled and listened to his stories. Again, I don't know all women, but I would never do that with a guy who I was merely platonically interested in, it would be too weird, too intimate. To me, it felt like she set the stage for OP and he never walked on. Her quips about "nothing weird" and "side hugs" to me suggest a certain level of insecurity, downplaying her feelings, and maybe wondering how OP feels. If I brought a guy home with me, took him to bed, and all we did was snuggle, I'd wake up the next morning feeling a bit foolish, like he wasn't that into me. I could be totally wrong. Even so, I still think it would behoove the OP to square away how HE feels, and act accordingly. If she was amenable to "mild, occasional" contact, that's OP's cue to ramp it up. Yeah you might not know this type, but I do. Girls like this do exist, and OP is firmly in the friendzone. I'm getting a vibe that the contact is merely "tolerated" and not "reciprocated". The OP said it was an awkward hug the next day. I wouldn't waste anymore time on that girl. That being said, OP needs to learn to be better around women.
katiegrl Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Alright, if she didn't want to have sex, she shouldn't have invited him in. But again, we don't know if he went for it or not. Maybe at that point, drunk and at 3:30 in the morning, sex wasn't an option—it's not exactly an ideal setting for sexytimes when you're cross-eyed and barely conscious. But, she DID ask him out for a fourth date. And invited him back to her place, gave him more wine, and cuddled and listened to his stories. Again, I don't know all women, but I would never do that with a guy who I was merely platonically interested in, it would be too weird, too intimate. To me, it felt like she set the stage for OP and he never walked on. Her quips about "nothing weird" and "side hugs" to me suggest a certain level of insecurity, downplaying her feelings, and maybe wondering how OP feels. If I brought a guy home with me, took him to bed, and all we did was snuggle, I'd wake up the next morning feeling a bit foolish, like he wasn't that into me. I could be totally wrong. Even so, I still think it would behoove the OP to square away how HE feels, and act accordingly. If she was amenable to "mild, occasional" contact, that's OP's cue to ramp it up. ^^ Oh man this....all the way this!!! And every other post by losangelena on this thread. She is right on....OP listen to losangel...!!! 2
katiegrl Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Yeah you might not know this type, but I do. Girls like this do exist, and OP is firmly in the friendzone. I'm getting a vibe that the contact is merely "tolerated" and not "reciprocated". The OP said it was an awkward hug the next day. I wouldn't waste anymore time on that girl. That being said, OP needs to learn to be better around women. barcode it sounds like you may be projecting....cause I'm getting a completely different vibe. She's into him....but confused by the OP's actions. Or lack thereof. OP if you're into her...step it up dude! At the very least kiss her!!! You were in her bed for crying out loud...snuggling and cuddling ...and you did nothing??? No doubt SHE is scratching her head right now...thinking you're either gay or just not into her!!! If you try to kiss her or make other romantic moves....and she pushes you away....then okay you're friend zoned. But you will never know till you try, right? Don't wait for her, geez. Hell, again she invited you into her bed! Friends don't do that.... Edited February 22, 2015 by katiegrl 4
losangelena Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Thanks, katiegrl! OP, just a couple of more questions for you. How old are the two of you? You say you've been out of the dating scene for a while now, but who knows, you could have met your last GF when you were very young. For this girl to have called you with a friend sounds like a very young person thing to do. Save for family conference calls, I have not ever called anyone WITH anyone else. Also, what did you end up doing for Valentine's Day? Was that dinner at your place?
Fhsjkfjrhsdh3646 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 barcode it sounds like you may be projecting....cause I'm getting a completely different vibe. She's into him....but confused by the OP's actions. Or lack thereof. OP if you're into her...step it up dude! At the very least kiss her!!! You were in her bed for crying out loud...snuggling and cuddling ...and you did nothing??? No doubt SHE is scratching her head right now...thinking you're either gay or just not into her!!! Well - maybe a bit. I had a similar situation once. But I reread it and came to the same conclusion. This girl doesn't seem physically "at ease" with the OP. I agree the OP needs to step up his game, getting into her bed he should have at least made out with her - otherwise said good night and left. It's kind of emasculating to sleep in a bed with a woman you're on a 3rd date with and not be having sex with her. He can keep trying I guess - but I feel like this girl is on the fence about him - never a good sign. 1
Author fluidian Posted February 22, 2015 Author Posted February 22, 2015 How old are the two of you? Also, what did you end up doing for Valentine's Day? Was that dinner at your place? Losangelena - I'm 35 - been out of the scene for a decade - she's 32. I totally agree that calling me with her friend is a weird thing to do for a 32 year old. I had a few of those experiences in high school, but not since... Yes - we did Valentine's Day together - that was dinner at my place, although there was no mention of Valentine's Day when we were together - it was basically just a get together. We ate at my place because by the time we coordinated, it was impossible to get a decent reservation. As I had stated, we were both kind of on the fence leading into that date/Valentine's, and even through that evening, contact with pretty mild/tame - likely due to both of us being on the fence - at that point she hadn't yet initiated any contact or really any flirting...which was likely pushing her towards my friendzone... Regardless, she definitely warmed up an awful lot between Valentine's and last night. I say that because all of a sudden she was initiating some contact and trying to get closer...she was quite a bit different and finally seem comfortable - this extended beyond her actions - and was evident even in how she was talking.
Vintage79 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Teeing off of one of Barcode's comments - did the girl start to seem at ease last time you saw her? Or was she still kind of icy? If she changed her approach between date 2/3 and date 4, she may have been working through some things - you had mentioned that there was a potential glitch on date 2 that had both of you on the fence. As such, on date 3, she may have effectively started with, "why am I seeing this guy again", and even if she slowly came around, it may not have been sufficient to see much of a change on date 3. If she was different on date 4, the switch may have flipped, and things COULD be different - note the could. As such, date 4 may more closely resembled a typical second meeting. Regardless, Fluidian, you're dragging your feet - if you see her again, just go for a kiss right away...as at this point, she either wants it and will appreciate it then as opposed to being an awkward good-bye, or she'll not want it, and you can cut your losses sooner. You may be able to get some cues about what she's thinking about how she was approaching the end of date 4 - did she seem like she wanted you to stay and hang out for the day? Did she talk about seeing you again? These would be positives in context of romance. I'm kind of of the mentality of one of the prior posters - she wouldn't have invited you into her bed if she had literally no interest...why not at least a few kisses? Tsk, tsk... 2
Gary S Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 The answer to this one is simple. If a woman won't kiss you on date one, there will probably never be a relationship between you two; she's just not attracted to you enough. Everything after date one was a waste of time. Women who feel something for you, enough to kick off a relationship, will kiss you on date one. The kiss test is one of the greatest signs of attraction there is.
smackie9 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 What the hell does the term, "cuddle bitch" even mean, by the way? It sounds so demeaning. There's nothing demeaning about cuddling, first of all, my BF and I do it all the time. Cuddle bi tch is a term coined in The Ladder Theory where a guy never gets to sleep with a girl but gets to have intimate moments with her like cuddling, spooning, or otherwise being affectionate. Usually this will occur in private. She probably considers him a really sweet guy, which is the kiss of death. Note that the guy DOES NOT get to engage in ANY kind of sexual relations with the girl. The girl merely uses him to fulfill a lack of intimacy in her relationship with her bf or she is using him till she does find a guy she actually wants to have sex with......or another term : friends without benefits.
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