LookAtThisPOst Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Though this could have fallen under the Religion thread, this is a dating issue as well. There's this woman I know, early 40s, church organist, involved in her children's church activities and the like. Heavily involved. She's dating a man that hasn't set foot in a church since he was a child and his faith is "meh" at best...he'd rather be fishing or golfing on Sunday mornings and guess what...that's okay with her. Why? Her last marriage was a hellish nightmare. She did the whole "be a good girl before the wedding night" thing, only to have found out she married a man that cheated and abused alcohol. He was an avid church goer too, and were both of the Christian faith. The man she is with now, though agnostic at the very least, treats her with respect, loyalty, and honors her. Heck, she'd probably date a Scientoligist if he treated her right. Except...there's always that pesky "human" side to most people. Now, she's living with the guy...and guess what, regardless of Christian belief of living is sin...she said, "That's between me and God whilst we meet." She said never again will she not live together outside of marraige until she finds out a great deal about the person by LIVING with them. Quite contradictory in nature of an active Christian, but it is quite perplexing that a woman of great faith to make an exception. Seems most women/men put religious beliefs like on the 5th or 6th run on the ladder of "what they are looking for in a mate." these days. Can't say I blame them when the Pastor cheats on his wife with the church secretary. That all being said, would you change your convictions if you had experienced the same thing as this person's?
Gaeta Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 I completely understand because I have been there but I re-acted worse than your friend. I was a devoted Catholic and after I left my long abusive marriage I stopped going to Church and I stopped praying. When people asked what was going on with me I just say I pout God. I threw the rules out the window and now I watch for myself cause all those times I had to hide with my baby girl because I was afraid my husband would kill me, HE was not watching over me. 2
losangelena Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 I don't think it's really anyone's business what this woman does or doesn't do in her love life. I grew up in the church, too, and when I started dating around (Christians and non Christians) I started to realize that a lot of what I thought were convictions were simply things to hide behind out of fear (I believed in no sex before marriage because I was afraid of men, for instance), and when I went ahead and had sex, and realized it wasn't scary at all, it forced me to look at my other beliefs, and then I realized that I used God as a way to not grow up. For instance, I never learned to be financially responsible because I figured, God will take care of me, so whatever. Anyway, point being, there are a lot of reasons why people step away from their faith. In this woman's case, it sounds like she's quite disillusioned by her marriage, and I don't blame her. Doesn't sound like she's casting off her beliefs FOR this man. I can understand, too, if she doesn't feel comfortable casting off her church life completely, especially if it's a culture she's been around for a long time. I bet if you were to delve into the private lives of a lot of churchgoers, you'd find a lot of things that don't jive with how church people should be. Again, not really anyone else's business. 2
Author LookAtThisPOst Posted February 14, 2015 Author Posted February 14, 2015 I don't think it's really anyone's business what this woman does or doesn't do in her love life. I grew up in the church, too, and when I started dating around (Christians and non Christians) I started to realize that a lot of what I thought were convictions were simply things to hide behind out of fear (I believed in no sex before marriage because I was afraid of men, for instance), and when I went ahead and had sex, and realized it wasn't scary at all, it forced me to look at my other beliefs, and then I realized that I used God as a way to not grow up. For instance, I never learned to be financially responsible because I figured, God will take care of me, so whatever. Anyway, point being, there are a lot of reasons why people step away from their faith. In this woman's case, it sounds like she's quite disillusioned by her marriage, and I don't blame her. Doesn't sound like she's casting off her beliefs FOR this man. I can understand, too, if she doesn't feel comfortable casting off her church life completely, especially if it's a culture she's been around for a long time. I bet if you were to delve into the private lives of a lot of churchgoers, you'd find a lot of things that don't jive with how church people should be. Again, not really anyone else's business. Right, I know what you mean, however, there are some things where I think it can affect my dating life. For instance, a woman that's Christian that treats leads a man on, plays head games, etc., I would expect better of her. Been having experiences lately with even the most faith-based woman acting just as such. Esp. after kind of bonding with them when it comes to shared experiences.
central Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Sure. Faith is based on an unprovable assumption, so could be entirely delusion. Some of the "rules" and attitudes promoted by religion may be wrong or counter-productive. Better to compromise faith than reality in the pursuit of happiness, because reality doesn't compromise back.
mightycpa Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Though this could have fallen under the Religion thread, this is a dating issue as well. There's this woman I know, early 40s, church organist, involved in her children's church activities and the like. Heavily involved. She's dating a man that hasn't set foot in a church since he was a child and his faith is "meh" at best...he'd rather be fishing or golfing on Sunday mornings and guess what...that's okay with her. Why? Her last marriage was a hellish nightmare. She did the whole "be a good girl before the wedding night" thing, only to have found out she married a man that cheated and abused alcohol. He was an avid church goer too, and were both of the Christian faith. The man she is with now, though agnostic at the very least, treats her with respect, loyalty, and honors her. Heck, she'd probably date a Scientoligist if he treated her right. Except...there's always that pesky "human" side to most people. Now, she's living with the guy...and guess what, regardless of Christian belief of living is sin...she said, "That's between me and God whilst we meet." She said never again will she not live together outside of marraige until she finds out a great deal about the person by LIVING with them. Quite contradictory in nature of an active Christian, but it is quite perplexing that a woman of great faith to make an exception. Seems most women/men put religious beliefs like on the 5th or 6th run on the ladder of "what they are looking for in a mate." these days. Can't say I blame them when the Pastor cheats on his wife with the church secretary. That all being said, would you change your convictions if you had experienced the same thing as this person's? Why? Why would you even care why? Most people I know don't know enough about themselves or their beliefs to know why they believe something, or why they later reject those beliefs. They point to some incident in their lives which they say caused them to re-evaluate. Maybe some did, but I'd say most simply react because God didn't do this for them, or He didn't do that. Religion is just one of several ways that people express something about themselves. It can be that, or drama, or politics or Boy Scouts, or whatever. As to playing games or being hypocritical, religion has no monopoly on that behavior. For example, I've prepared tax returns for a couple thousand people, and I've learned something that almost always holds true. Liberal democrats are the worst tax cheats, and their favorite way of doing it was by overstating their contributions to charity. New IRS rules and the ease of recording and reporting have recently put the kibosh on those practices, but the instincts are still there. Of course, they are the ones who support politicians who support higher taxation. Republicans, in general, complain bitterly, but use the law to avoid taxation. Go figure. Anyway, my point is that most people are ****ed up in one way or another, and in the end, love is about acceptance of an imperfect being. If you're lucky, before you meet Ms. Right, you'll meet a lot of people who aren't right for you and you'll learn something about yourself and why they aren't right for you. If you're lucky, you'll be heartbroken once, and you'll learn a ton and you'll grow. Don't sweat the church lady and her way of coping. She's right. It is between her and God. Just keep your eyes open as you date and look around, and don't blame others for what you experienced in the past. Do those things, and you'll be fine.
Mr.D.E.B.T. Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 People are going to do what they want to do despite having belief in any religion. If she is willing to live with the reality of her situation, that's what she will do. She can't blame her decisions good or bad on her pastor, minister, bishop, etc. She made a choice and will just have to see what that means in time.
Arieswoman Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 I am of the opinion that everyone needs a belief system and whatever that is, it should be respected. (Unless it involves human sacrifices and circumcising women, of course ) What really ticks me off is when people are non-church-goers/agnostic/atheist etc etc and then want to get married in a church - WTF ?? Why would these people want their marriage blessed in front of a God they didn't believe in?? Duh ? 1
losangelena Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Right, I know what you mean, however, there are some things where I think it can affect my dating life. For instance, a woman that's Christian that treats leads a man on, plays head games, etc., I would expect better of her. Been having experiences lately with even the most faith-based woman acting just as such. Esp. after kind of bonding with them when it comes to shared experiences. I knew this had something to do with your own experience. Back when I identified more strongly with Christianity, I could have pointed to plenty of men in the church who were dating exclusively outside the church and say, "well who the heck am I supposed to date?" I know it's frustrating, but it really has nothing to do with you.
Erised Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 That all being said, would you change your convictions if you had experienced the same thing as this person's? I have no such convictions to look the other way on, so all I can say is I wouldn't date a religious person just because they treated me right. Agnostic is as far as I'd deviate. (I'm an atheist.) I'll be friends with practicing Christians, Muslims, Pagans, what have you, but I wouldn't be compatible or have the high interpersonal respect needed in a relationship with someone who engages in a lot of magical thought or lack of skepticism. (Not just in religion.) So far as what I morally believe is good and proper conduct, I wouldn't change that for anybody. However, clearly it's not a moral issue with her, only an issue with the book she proclaims to follow.
Erised Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 What really ticks me off is when people are non-church-goers/agnostic/atheist etc etc and then want to get married in a church -: Maybe they think the space is pretty and the price is right. It's pretty much just another space for consideration from that vantage. Or perhaps they want to honor the tradition intheir family, even if they don't honor the religion.
Arieswoman Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Erised, Maybe they think the space is pretty and the price is right. It's pretty much just another space for consideration from that vantage. Or perhaps they want to honor the tradition intheir family, even if they don't honor the religion. Who knows what their motivations are? I just think that if they don't honour the religion, then the promises don't mean much, and are just words. 1
Joyvke Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 If she is happy and he treats her with respect who cares if he's agnostic or whatever. People care too much about some fictional book and too less about what's right and what's wrong blindly following the word of others. It seems this guy is a better fit for her than her religious ex husband was. 1
xxoo Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Better to forsake religion for love than to forsake love for religion. Erised, Who knows what their motivations are? I just think that if they don't honour the religion, then the promises don't mean much, and are just words. No, the words in the religious ceremony didn't mean much to me. In fact, much of it was in a language I don't even understand! But we made our own promises to each other, outside the ceremony, and they very much mean something. So we good, no worries 1
Author LookAtThisPOst Posted February 14, 2015 Author Posted February 14, 2015 I know of some churches that will not marry co-habitating couples
Erised Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Erised, Who knows what their motivations are? I just think that if they don't honour the religion, then the promises don't mean much, and are just words. For most people, their promise means something regardless of where it was said and what stern supervisor may or may not be checking in on their adherence.... That's character. Say what you mean,and stick to it.
Joyvke Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 the bible is just garbage Yup, and also pretty sure there are other ways to get married that are actually legal on paper.
Gloria25 Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 Where do I begin.... Ok, on Sex and the City, Charlotte converted into Judaism to marry that atty. I lost respect for her. There are significant differences in Judaism and other religions. You just can't change your belief in Jesus on a whim. I will not give up my religion just to have a dude. I also do not follow many things in my religion - which include the requirement to marry someone of the same faith. I don't care. One guy I really liked, asked me straight up if I'd change religions for his and I said "no". Another, I "had" to tell him cuz he asked what was "x" hanging in my vehicle and I wasn't gonna lie. Another, he saw paintings and stuff in my home and figured out pretty quick what religion I believed in. So, I do not respect someone who will renounce their faith to appease some person. Now, we all do things outside of our religious beliefs - like me, who has sex outside of marriage - but, I do not consider that renouncing my religion. And yes, I do not get people who do not believe in God and/or go to church once a year and/or never - yet wanna get married in front of a preacher and/or in the name of the Lord. BTW, another reason I prefer FWB/casual situations...cuz, since I won't be marrying and/or having kids - no need for us to share the same faith.
Author LookAtThisPOst Posted February 15, 2015 Author Posted February 15, 2015 BTW, another reason I prefer FWB/casual situations. I find this statement rather disturbing, you do this and then call yourself Christian...well, there's some loss of integrity there. No offense to you, because there was this one woman I wanted to get seriously involved with that wanted to do ONLY the FWB thing with me. I had to walk away from that one. (Yes, I turned down casual sex...and I'm a man.) I was trying to talk her into dating me exclusively, and she said she would not as she felt we had not much in common. She wanted to have sex with me because I was a sweet guy that was there for her in her time of need. Like she was rewarding me for keeping her company or something. I found it ironic that she would routinely go to Bible study and attend church. Just couldn't wrap my mind around how a woman could have emotionless sex and then call herself Christian. Now, if she had said, "I have done the FWB thing, but I'm not proud of myself for doing so and attempting to move away from that...then I could see some merit to admitting to her faults." I would shy away from any Christian woman that lacked integrity, esp. if they had no shame in knowingly and willfully committing a sin...and even plans to sin further in the future.
scorpiogirl Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 I don't think you know the mean of ironic, though you often use it. It's ironic that you judge the woman for having a fwb because it makes her a bad Christian, but you don't think there's anything wrong with you yourself having ANY sec outside of marriage. The bible doesn't say you shouldn't have a fwb. It says save sex for marriage. Why is it your business? For a Christian you're awfully judgemental of everyone. 1
smackie9 Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 There are plenty of other more open minded churches out there that would accept her for who and how she lives. I agree there are bad people that hide behind the religion cloak. My mom knows this first hand. A contractor from her church did some work on her kitchen. He ended up being shady and ripped her off. My experience, I was waiting in a line up at a family restaurant one Sunday with my husband when a church group came in and had to wait too. An older man from that group started to rub up against me on purpose the perve, and I had to jump out of the way and move out of the line up. I was so furious.
todreaminblue Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 living with someone first......doesnt protect you from a man who isnt good....you can know a guy fro years and years ....and years and years........and then he turns into ted bundy one day because somebody forgot to ask him if he wanted fries with that..... having sex before marriage and living with a guy doesnt help you decipher if a guy is going to give you a black eye or not..... what gives you more of an idea ...is actual friendship...not a full on intimate relationship with a man...... as far as celibacy goes......if you choose not to be celibate and claim christianity i would hope that you actually were permissable in having sex because you wanted to have sex......not because it didnt work before when you tried being celibate......or that you are forced into being promiscuous now......from a partner who wont wait..... you either believe that celibacy is a commandment or you dont......you either want to follow gods ways or you dont....because you actually want to hav esex....theres no use blamign it on a past relationship.......thats not what celibacy is about...its a commandment followed not a lifestyle followed.......deb
Gloria25 Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I find this statement rather disturbing, you do this and then call yourself Christian...well, there's some loss of integrity there. No offense to you, because there was this one woman I wanted to get seriously involved with that wanted to do ONLY the FWB thing with me. I had to walk away from that one. (Yes, I turned down casual sex...and I'm a man.) I was trying to talk her into dating me exclusively, and she said she would not as she felt we had not much in common. She wanted to have sex with me because I was a sweet guy that was there for her in her time of need. Like she was rewarding me for keeping her company or something. I found it ironic that she would routinely go to Bible study and attend church. Just couldn't wrap my mind around how a woman could have emotionless sex and then call herself Christian. Now, if she had said, "I have done the FWB thing, but I'm not proud of myself for doing so and attempting to move away from that...then I could see some merit to admitting to her faults." I would shy away from any Christian woman that lacked integrity, esp. if they had no shame in knowingly and willfully committing a sin...and even plans to sin further in the future. Who said that I'm a Christian? And, you have a right to date who you feel conforms to your religious beliefs. And, that's one reason why I don't date within my religion and/or want to marry them. I've had friends start quoting me scriptures on simple things and I don't need a friend to "lecture" me - much less a husband. Also, this is one reason why I go into droughts. It does bother me that I am not complying with my religious beliefs, but I have needs to you know. When God puts better men on this planet - especially in my religion - to date, then I'll reconsider how I see about going into certain relationships. I am not going to "submit" to some guy when he will use the religion to control me. My father was like that. He'd read off the scriptures where women had to do this/that. But, he somehow missed where we submit because we are putting ourselves in a guy's hands and he has his end of the bargain to live up to also. So, my dad wanted all the "perks" of a good wife/woman - w/o him having a job, staying with one woman, etc. My connection with God is between "me" and God. What I do in relationships is not hurting anyone and God will punish me as "He" sees fit. Again, if I was to marry and have kids - then religious connection is important because to set up a nest on conflicting religious beliefs is not good for the kids and if I had kids, I want them raised with my beliefs. Also, even "if" I was not to have kids - if I married someone and we didn't share religious beliefs, there's have to be lots of tolerance to go around. Edited February 15, 2015 by Gloria25
Author LookAtThisPOst Posted February 15, 2015 Author Posted February 15, 2015 living with someone first......doesnt protect you from a man who isnt good....you can know a guy fro years and years ....and years and years........and then he turns into ted bundy one day because somebody forgot to ask him if he wanted fries with that..... having sex before marriage and living with a guy doesnt help you decipher if a guy is going to give you a black eye or not..... what gives you more of an idea ...is actual friendship...not a full on intimate relationship with a man...... as far as celibacy goes......if you choose not to be celibate and claim christianity i would hope that you actually were permissable in having sex because you wanted to have sex......not because it didnt work before when you tried being celibate......or that you are forced into being promiscuous now......from a partner who wont wait..... you either believe that celibacy is a commandment or you dont......you either want to follow gods ways or you dont....because you actually want to hav esex....theres no use blamign it on a past relationship.......thats not what celibacy is about...its a commandment followed not a lifestyle followed.......deb I know what you mean in a lot of this, except I really don't buy this statement, never did... living with someone first......doesnt protect you from a man who isnt good....you can know a guy fro years and years ....and years and years. You can actually know someone for YEARS, and still not know how they'll be? I tend to disagree. Usually its already happening, and they are ignoring the signs or putting it into the back of their minds. If not, there's either a lack of awareness on that person's part to not notice how this person behaves or they are choosing to ignore it...esp. after having lived with them for years.
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