DKT3 Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 I think what he means is there are women (and men too) who are inexperienced and perhaps not as intuitive as others who are easily groomed by a skilled manipulator. Doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their choices and actions. But it can be hard for them to see they were played. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Also that its not an issue only with OW/MOW. Its the girl in high school who's BF doesn't want to be seen in public with her, its the college woman who is planning a marriage, while her BF is running rough shot through the freshman class, its the married woman who's husband treats her like crap always promising its the last time. Sure every woman can see the guy in the silk shirt and gold chain, its the guy that puts on the sheeps wool and acts like a friend all the while pushing boundaires. The word victim doesn't mean innocent, it means would she had engaged if he said, "hey my marriage is great, my wife is awesome I just want a side chick to have sex with a couple times a month" 4
Gigigirl Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 This is true. It's easier to believe the MM is unhappy, though, if he actually leaves the M. The only person who knows the whole truth in these situations is unfortunately the one who's benefiting the most. Until actions match words, it's safe to assume he's just cake-eating. Yes thank you, that is kind of my point. Only MM truly knows what he feels and wants and unfortunately the BS and OW comfort themselves with different variations on what they perceive him to be thinking. 3
Gigigirl Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Also that its not an issue only with OW/MOW. Its the girl in high school who's BF doesn't want to be seen in public with her, its the college woman who is planning a marriage, while her BF is running rough shot through the freshman class, its the married woman who's husband treats her like crap always promising its the last time. Sure every woman can see the guy in the silk shirt and gold chain, its the guy that puts on the sheeps wool and acts like a friend all the while pushing boundaires. The word victim doesn't mean innocent, it means would she had engaged if he said, "hey my marriage is great, my wife is awesome I just want a side chick to have sex with a couple times a month" I completely agree. This isn't an OW issue, it is an every woman who has ever been blinded by bullcrap because they loved a man issue, we tell ourselves what we have too to keep believing what we choose to. 3
pheonixrisen Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 I didn't personally say YOU but let's be real. I know there are plenty of BS's who comfort themselves by choosing to believe their H never truly loved his OW, that she was just there for sex. Just like an OW finds comfort in choosing to believe the MM's marriage is terrible and he only stays for blah blah reason. Most people tell themselves whatever they have to and believe what they want. Just like posters are saying "What OW would really want a MM if he told her how happy he was, how in love with his wife he was", well what BS would really want to reconcile if their H told them he truly did love and care for OW but he had a sense of duty and obligation to her, his wife? I'm just saying. when you use the term B's you are talking to every B's out there ....I actually believe my h cared quite deeply for the ow even though he refused to admit it ..but is it love I don't think so I remember a conversation with my h following dday me : why did you choose her ? H : because she showed interest even though she knew I was married . me : do you love her? H : no I don't even like her me: (bull****) so you just spent 18 months with a woman you don't even like . h: quite for a while ...followed by she was just a mean to an end and no I don't love her. so I believe my h did actually care for the ow ...to what degree he will never say ...but anything less than this answer would actually be upsetting to me because than you cannot destroy a marriage over a woman you did not have some kind of feelings for ...was it enough ? No ? Was his feelings for her stronger? no Was his borrowed time with her better than his everyday life in his marriage ? No....All that he feels and felt was simply not more than what he had/has in his marriage. 3
MJJean Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 I completely agree. This isn't an OW issue, it is an every woman who has ever been blinded by bullcrap because they loved a man issue, we tell ourselves what we have too to keep believing what we choose to. Yeah, but we tell ourselves that while there is a voice inside us screaming "It's a trap!" We tell that voice to STFU and sit down. That's victimizing ourselves, if anything. 4
MJJean Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 when you use the term B's you are talking to every B's out there ....I actually believe my h cared quite deeply for the ow even though he refused to admit it ..but is it love I don't think so I remember a conversation with my h following dday me : why did you choose her ? H : because she showed interest even though she knew I was married . me : do you love her? H : no I don't even like her me: (bull****) so you just spent 18 months with a woman you don't even like . h: quite for a while ...followed by she was just a mean to an end and no I don't love her. so I believe my h did actually care for the ow ...to what degree he will never say ...but anything less than this answer would actually be upsetting to me because than you cannot destroy a marriage over a woman you did not have some kind of feelings for ...was it enough ? No ? Was his feelings for her stronger? no Was his borrowed time with her better than his everyday life in his marriage ? No....All that he feels and felt was simply not more than what he had/has in his marriage. His pause was most likely him running a system check and analyzing his feelings or lack of feelings. Take him at his word. I know it's got to be rough to acknowledge that your H betrayed you for someone he didn't even like, much less love, but it's likely the truth. You don't have to like a person to have sex with them. Sometimes, hate sex is amazing. If I were taking a guess, not knowing either of them, I'd say he was repulsed and compelled by her willingness to pursue a married man and it went from there. She knew he was married and she showed interest in him. He liked the ego stroking, the flattery, liked the sex, and that's that. I've been there from both sides during my disastrous first sham of a marriage. I got accused many, many, times of loving or at least caring about the ones I kept around for a while. The truth was that they were just amusing company and great in the sack. But that's not a pretty truth and it makes people uncomfortable. 4
xxoo Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 In so many aspects of life, people tend not to appreciate what they have until they face losing it. Marriage is no different. The bored/irritated/resentful husband can easily transform into a genuinely appreciative, adoring, needy husband when d-day occurs and the fantasy bubble bursts and he is faced with losing his wife. 5
badkarma2013 Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Yeah, but we tell ourselves that while there is a voice inside us screaming "It's a trap!" We tell that voice to STFU and sit down. That's victimizing ourselves, if anything. ************How Many married women who have engaged in Affair...have had some guy in the office ...compliment her...tell her she is beautiful...do something her husband doesnt do for her(send flowers etc..)..and the next thing you know she is in the sack with him...taking a huge risk...because he fed her A Fuc&ing line and she bought it hook line and sinker...It was a line by a player nothing more... My Point exactly.... 1
Gigigirl Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 when you use the term B's you are talking to every B's out there ....I actually believe my h cared quite deeply for the ow even though he refused to admit it ..but is it love I don't think so I remember a conversation with my h following dday me : why did you choose her ? H : because she showed interest even though she knew I was married . me : do you love her? H : no I don't even like her me: (bull****) so you just spent 18 months with a woman you don't even like . h: quite for a while ...followed by she was just a mean to an end and no I don't love her. so I believe my h did actually care for the ow ...to what degree he will never say ...but anything less than this answer would actually be upsetting to me because than you cannot destroy a marriage over a woman you did not have some kind of feelings for ...was it enough ? No ? Was his feelings for her stronger? no Was his borrowed time with her better than his everyday life in his marriage ? No....All that he feels and felt was simply not more than what he had/has in his marriage. I'm sorry you are going through that. My intention wasn't to say that a MM loves his OW more, cherished his time with her more, I don't believe that, just it's possible he could...but even if he did, do you really think that he would tell you that while trying to reconcile? And would you even want to R if he did? I can't speak to how your H felt either way. I was just pointing out that in the way a MM will downplay his marriage/commitment to the OW is the same as MM will downplay an affair to his BS. A liar is a liar is a liar. In your case, your H probably did dislike her but for whatever reason had an affair with her. Every case is different. 3
Gigigirl Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 His pause was most likely him running a system check and analyzing his feelings or lack of feelings. Take him at his word. I know it's got to be rough to acknowledge that your H betrayed you for someone he didn't even like, much less love, but it's likely the truth. You don't have to like a person to have sex with them. Sometimes, hate sex is amazing. If I were taking a guess, not knowing either of them, I'd say he was repulsed and compelled by her willingness to pursue a married man and it went from there. She knew he was married and she showed interest in him. He liked the ego stroking, the flattery, liked the sex, and that's that. I've been there from both sides during my disastrous first sham of a marriage. I got accused many, many, times of loving or at least caring about the ones I kept around for a while. The truth was that they were just amusing company and great in the sack. But that's not a pretty truth and it makes people uncomfortable. I can agree to this. My affairs were all EAs and I found my APs fun and amusing and like having them around but love? No. Unfortunately I can easily drop them for months at a time. I'm not heartless I promise, but these guys fill a purpose for the time being. When I meet them I am not looking for a BF or H, I already have one of those. I'm looking for a fun new fresh friend to talk and enjoy. I think most MM/MW are like this, in a certain mind frame when they approach or let themselves be approached by OW/OM. They are not looking for another spouse or commitment, they are looking for a break, for relief, for fun and to get away. 3
HereNorThere Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 OW/OM's date married people for a numbers of reasons, but the most common one is a lack of self-esteem. Think for a moment about how bad you would have to feel about yourself to date someone who is A) married B) a known cheater C) and know liar D) exposing you to someone else sexual fluids, etc. etc. I don't think someone that desperate really cares about whether or not their partner in crime is happy in their marriage. In fact, I'm sure it feels more like a "victory" to them if the marriage is in a good state, because at least at that point they can feel like they actually won someone over instead of being a side chick. 5
MJJean Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 I can agree to this. My affairs were all EAs and I found my APs fun and amusing and like having them around but love? No. Unfortunately I can easily drop them for months at a time. I'm not heartless I promise, but these guys fill a purpose for the time being. When I meet them I am not looking for a BF or H, I already have one of those. I'm looking for a fun new fresh friend to talk and enjoy. I think most MM/MW are like this, in a certain mind frame when they approach or let themselves be approached by OW/OM. They are not looking for another spouse or commitment, they are looking for a break, for relief, for fun and to get away. EA implies some kind of emotional involvement similar to love. I think we need a new term. MA. Mental affair without emotional involvement. 2
pheonixrisen Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry you are going through that. My intention wasn't to say that a MM loves his OW more, cherished his time with her more, I don't believe that, just it's possible he could...but even if he did, do you really think that he would tell you that while trying to reconcile? And would you even want to R if he did? I can't speak to how your H felt either way. I was just pointing out that in the way a MM will downplay his marriage/commitment to the OW is the same as MM will downplay an affair to his BS. A liar is a liar is a liar. In your case, your H probably did dislike her but for whatever reason had an affair with her. Every case is different. Thank you, I know you were trying to say that you never know and he will never say if ow is more imp like he would never tell the ow that his wife is actually good and his marriage is great.. I was just trying to point out that after dday not all B's walks with blinders on Believing what h says yes I am sure they down play their feelings etc..but I am no body's fool ...he is not on the same pedestal I now know what he is capable off , I don't go around deluding my self that he did not feel for the ow for 18 months you gotta have some kind of feelings ...for the time he was with her I am sure he did ...and I don't want to look at the ow and say ha! He did not have feelings for you he chose me ,No he had feelings for her but when push came to shove his feelings for me were stronger .when he knew he was going to loose me he dropped her his this action showed his feelings for her was not stronger (even though his words did not have much value) On dday all we had together was our history that he had rewritten to suit his needs and a marriage certificate ..He had more things in common with the ow their back ground culture etc....and a 18 month fairytale history ....i gave him option to leave on dday and told him i would file for divorce immediately he refused ..and said he cannot imagine his life without me ...once again his words did not mean anything and i made his life a living hell for following 6 months to 1 year ...but he stood fighting with me for us every time i looked he was there ...he never left ...his this action showed he was committed to us.not some fancy words i don't love the ow blah blah. I Only went by his actions. On the other hand for the ow ..to keep believing and justifying that he loves me and stayed in his loveless marriage Out of a sense of duty and obligation and guilt is just plain deluding themselves . People who have affairs are selfish not selfless. Edited February 10, 2015 by pheonixrisen 3
truncated Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 this whole situation makes me think of a bomber pilot during a war. If you don't know the people who will be hurt, if you don't see the damage you cause and if you belive they are somehow to blame for their own pain, then it's easier to do what you do. If you put that same pilot in a room with the people who will be hurt by the bomb, let them get to know them as people, then it would probably be a heck of a lot harder to drop that bomb. Affairs seem like that. The "other" never really knows for sure what the betrayed spouse is like, and it's much easier to help hurt someone and then to justify it to yourslef if you don't know them, and the only thing you know about them is that the marraige is 'bad". where does this information come from? The ws, and perhaps some gleanings from social media, filtered through the lens of what information the WS has provided about them. I wonder what would happen if the "other" were to spend some time with the BS and get to know them and the actual dynamics of the marraige before the affair starts. Would it still be so easy to participate in something that would hurt them? 6
Author gettingstronger Posted February 10, 2015 Author Posted February 10, 2015 Trunated-great point-I think a lot of MMs paint their marriage as not so good not only for themselves but for the OW as well-whats odd in our situation is our OW was drawn to our relationship-she asked about it all the time, the things we did as a family, etc... she painted her marriage as awful and would ask for advice from my H on how to build a stronger family (ick right?)- I think it fed my husbands ego, the whole knight in shining armour thing- What I don't get and I have to say lots of these responses help me better understand is why hold on to the idea that the MM picked a bad marriage over them- that would make me feel worse, not better- like his marriage sucks but being with me would suck even worse- 3
purplesorrow Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Trunated-great point-I think a lot of MMs paint their marriage as not so good not only for themselves but for the OW as well-whats odd in our situation is our OW was drawn to our relationship-she asked about it all the time, the things we did as a family, etc... she painted her marriage as awful and would ask for advice from my H on how to build a stronger family (ick right?)- I think it fed my husbands ego, the whole knight in shining armour thing- What I don't get and I have to say lots of these responses help me better understand is why hold on to the idea that the MM picked a bad marriage over them- that would make me feel worse, not better- like his marriage sucks but being with me would suck even worse- Because he is being so noble and staying for his kids. He will deal with 'the wife' as best he can. 2
elaine567 Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 this whole situation makes me think of a bomber pilot during a war. If you don't know the people who will be hurt, if you don't see the damage you cause and if you belive they are somehow to blame for their own pain, then it's easier to do what you do. If you put that same pilot in a room with the people who will be hurt by the bomb, let them get to know them as people, then it would probably be a heck of a lot harder to drop that bomb. Affairs seem like that. The "other" never really knows for sure what the betrayed spouse is like, and it's much easier to help hurt someone and then to justify it to yourslef if you don't know them, and the only thing you know about them is that the marraige is 'bad". where does this information come from? The ws, and perhaps some gleanings from social media, filtered through the lens of what information the WS has provided about them. I wonder what would happen if the "other" were to spend some time with the BS and get to know them and the actual dynamics of the marraige before the affair starts. Would it still be so easy to participate in something that would hurt them? Agreed, but sometimes the OW/OM betrays their best friend, by sleeping with the best friend's spouse. That takes a special kind of OM/OW to do that, I think. 2
Author gettingstronger Posted February 10, 2015 Author Posted February 10, 2015 Agreed, but sometimes the OW/OM betrays their best friend, by sleeping with the best friend's spouse. That takes a special kind of OM/OW to do that, I think. Oh yuck- forgot about those for a minute- so true- yes, in that case what Truncated said does not apply- I think those types of affairs are about power- the whole mean girl syndrome left over from high school days- 2
Author gettingstronger Posted February 10, 2015 Author Posted February 10, 2015 Because he is being so noble and staying for his kids. He will deal with 'the wife' as best he can. Oh yes, the noble cheater- we ALL know about those right? 7
waterwoman Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 OW and I knew each other. We weren't 'best friends' but we had met several times and I thought we got on OK. We had actually been in touch a few times during the A as I was helping her out with arranging H's 50th birthday present from his pupils. We had each others mobiles numbers and were texting each other quite often, had been to each others houses. Hell! I even gave her a hug and offered her a bed for the night when she was having problems with her H. She knew I was real alright and seemed to quite like me, and H had never painted me as an evil old cow either. H just hadn't thought it through and somehow thought he could have us both somehow. OW just went along with what was on offer I think. She felt pretty powerless to do much else, hence some of the (possible) attempted manipulation that went on. Impression I had from what she did was that she just thought if she just hung on in there long enough she'd become more important than me to him. But who knows... I know H was shell shocked on dday when I was so distraught and when the people at his work that heard the rumours were so concerned and worried for me. He simply hadn't taken it seriously until then.
badkarma2013 Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 I can agree to this. My affairs were all EAs and I found my APs fun and amusing and like having them around but love? No. Unfortunately I can easily drop them for months at a time. I'm not heartless I promise, but these guys fill a purpose for the time being. When I meet them I am not looking for a BF or H, I already have one of those. I'm looking for a fun new fresh friend to talk and enjoy. I think most MM/MW are like this, in a certain mind frame when they approach or let themselves be approached by OW/OM. They are not looking for another spouse or commitment, they are looking for a break, for relief, for fun and to get away. ******************************************************************* Gigigirl.....it may be just that simple...They are not looking for commitment but for a break from the kids ..spouse and everyday life...And its Da&n exciting..and wrong and from what i can see..feels like nothing else..But neither does D-DAY.. I am curious how did you hold your boundries to keep it from turning into a PA...Shirley Glass noted Infidelity author states "It is a Long Road to the first Kiss...but and quick step there after to having sex." Not asking to ridicule ...just curious... 1
truncated Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Agreed, but sometimes the OW/OM betrays their best friend, by sleeping with the best friend's spouse. That takes a special kind of OM/OW to do that, I think. Sadly, there are some people who will justify anything they do. You can drive yourself crazy trying to understand their mindset, when the reality is taht it's just so foreign to the wya most peopple think, that's an impossibility. Just based on the thing I read on here, most 'others' don't seem like that. they are capable of empathy and remorse, which is why they have to perform a complex series of mental gymnatics to make what they do okay to themselves. 2
autumnnight Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Sadly, there are some people who will justify anything they do. You can drive yourself crazy trying to understand their mindset, when the reality is taht it's just so foreign to the wya most peopple think, that's an impossibility. Just based on the thing I read on here, most 'others' don't seem like that. they are capable of empathy and remorse, which is why they have to perform a complex series of mental gymnatics to make what they do okay to themselves. I am of the mindset that it is almost comforting when I CANNOT understand some types of evil. 4
DKT3 Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Trunated-great point-I think a lot of MMs paint their marriage as not so good not only for themselves but for the OW as well-whats odd in our situation is our OW was drawn to our relationship-she asked about it all the time, the things we did as a family, etc... she painted her marriage as awful and would ask for advice from my H on how to build a stronger family (ick right?)- I think it fed my husbands ego, the whole knight in shining armour thing- What I don't get and I have to say lots of these responses help me better understand is why hold on to the idea that the MM picked a bad marriage over them- that would make me feel worse, not better- like his marriage sucks but being with me would suck even worse- Simply because many convince themselves that he is picking the kids, and not the wife and marriage. He is such a honorable man that he would give up his own happiness to benefit others. The irony in that is he is cheating which goes against everything they've convinced themselves of. But of course that's because they share this awesome special bond that no one would ever understand. Weird how that works in so many affairs. So I believe they totally deny the impact of the relationship MM has with his BW as not only a factor but likely the main factor that he made the decision to stay, more like he didn't leave because his intent was always to stay. 9%, is the number of MM that leave the marriage for the affair partner, over half were actually thrown out. Another fact that OW won't face. There is a MOW now hanging everything on the fact that MM left the home, even if all the evidence shows he was tossed by his wife. He was in constant contact with the wife then moved back in, yeah he got tossed. 2
badkarma2013 Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I am of the mindset that it is almost comforting when I CANNOT understand some types of evil. Autumn....I really understand..I know I have beat this horse to death...But I have Never understood how my WW turned into an and pornstar for the OM and did things she had said for years was sick and disgusting.....but she did them with him... I never got Why...never ..The more i read here about WWs, I have never understood how such an extreme change in behavior can happen so quickly.. Evil ..i dont know.... emotionally devastating ..Absolutely ..... PS The OM was married had 2 kids made 300k a year and was from all indications was in a happy marriage...go figure.. Edited February 10, 2015 by badkarma2013
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