moimeme Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 only the few people that get divorced 50% of marriages end in divorce. There's actually a lot of them out there. North American statistics list more single people of all ages than there ever have been.
d'Arthez Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 Originally posted by moimeme 50% of marriages end in divorce. There's actually a lot of them out there. North American statistics list more single people of all ages than there ever have been. But on an annual basis that is only a few percent of that particular group. If the average Canadian marriage that ends in a divorce lasts for 10 years, that is only 10% of 50% is 5% of the group per year, that becomes available moimeme.
moimeme Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 Huh? 50% of marriages each year break up. The number of divorces per year equals half the number of marriages per year. They don't pro-rate back for each decade!
alphamale Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 let me also point out that at any point in time the vast majority of folks are either in a marriage or LTR, at least the ones worth having. So that leaves quite a small pool of eligible, available and normal singles at any given time. That is why when one goes to singles events they see the same group over and over again with just a little bit of new faces.
d'Arthez Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 Originally posted by moimeme Huh? 50% of marriages each year break up. The number of divorces per year equals half the number of marriages per year. They don't pro-rate back for each decade! It has been a few years since I have done statistics, so I can have made a mistake in the following: Moimeme, you make a valid point as I miscalculated by 50%; so the actual number should not be 5% but 2.5% of the professional educated group, per year on average. The average marriage does not (yet!) dissolve in 1 years time. If it would than 50% of the (then - formerly) married people would simply be available per year. If marriages would last on average for 50 years, a lot less people would be available. So the average length of a marriage that does end in a divorce is vital. The longer the "average failing marriage" lasts the less men and women are available. Imagine that they would not remarry ever again. That would leave at the end of the line 50% of the professional educated group single, PLUS the group of confirmed bachelors. Of course these 50% (plus the confirmed bachelors in which Topaze has no interest) are never available at any given point in time. They remarry or re-commit to someone else for instance after on average xx years, or are simply not interested in a LTR. In the last group Topaze has no interest. Say that the average time to re-commit oneself is 4 years. That leaves 4 x 2.5 = 10% of the professional and educated group available for dating MINUS the proportion of the group that is not interested in a LTR anymore. Say that is 20%, so that would leave a grand total of 8% of the professional educated group that would be eligible to be dated. Of course a few women would waste their time on the professionals who don't wish to commit. This is assuming that the average marriage which ends in a divorce lasts 10 years, and that the average time to re-commit oneself is 4 years, if a man is open for a LTR. If the last statistic would be only 2 years, divide the percentage of the professional educated group that is eligible to be dated (from Topaze's perspective) by 2. And if cohabitation (without marriage at one point) is as popular as marriage in Canada, multiply the numbers by 2 again. For the group that is still interested in a LTR, Topaze has to face competition with a lot of women. So she needs to have a lot to offer in the perception of the men. These men can make the demands, as a lot of women are interested in them. Making demands on men is easy, but you always have to be able to back them up. One of the questions is, can Topaze do that.
newby Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 d'Arthez, did you study pure mathematics or psychology? i always had you down as a psychologist til now.
moimeme Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 The number of each group is not static, D'Arthez. The stats aren't calculated on length of marriage at time of divorce. It's a simple calculation - they take the number of marriages per year and then the number of divorces per year and divide them into each other. So if there are 600 marriages this year and 300 divorces, it's calculated there are 50% divorces. And the same numbers occur next year so it's another 50% next year as a whole new batch of people marry and another whole new batch of people divorce. http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_18.pdf http://www.divorcereform.org/rates.html Stats on singles and marriage 54% and 57% The percentages of American women and men, respectively, who are 15 and over and currently married. <http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabMS-1.pdf> 4.6 milllion Number of cohabitating couples who maintained households in 2003. These couples comprised 4.2 percent of all households, up from 2.9 percent in 1996. <http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/families_households/003118.html> \http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabMS-1.pdf
meanon Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 Most men do want serious relationships but, quite sensibly, they want them with those they love. There's nothing wrong with aiming for what you want, a serious relationship, but like all commitments (marriage, kids etc) the best time to undertake such an arrangement is when it feels right to do so with a particular person. My guess is that many of those that suddenly decided they wanted friendship instead may have felt they were being asked to make too big a commitment too soon.
d'Arthez Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 I see. But the percentage of the divorces are a bit useless; you can't date a statistic, but you can date a person. The divorce rate per year in Canada is 2.46 per 1000 persons; if you know the number of marriages (and we do), you can actually calculate how long the average failing marriage lasts. I worked the other way around, with reasonable assumptions on the length of marriage in case of failure, I believe. The point was to show that even though marriage failure rates are high, it does not mean that a lot of men and women are single and without LTRs at any given time. The newly divorced will not remain uncommitted for the rest of their lifes in all cases. But get themselves involved in LTRs and possibly second marriages. The divorce rate per year of 2.46 persons seems a lot less impressive than the 45% divorce (as in percentage of marriage rates) would suggest, does not it? Given the preferences of Topaze, that points to the fact there are simply not many men, who would fit her demands in the first place.
nzchick Posted April 2, 2005 Posted April 2, 2005 Originally posted by Topaze "Why buy a cow if you can get milk for free?" I think part of it is the woman's fault. Having sex with a perfect stranger (one night stands) is definitely part of the reason why men dont want serious relationships!! of course most men wouldnt want to go out and be serious with someone who they had sex with the first night or two!! Hello! They dont want a cheap girl to be with forever!! .. Do we seriously expect the opposite sex to introduce us to their parents and friends when they just met us in a bar and had sex with us even before they find out what our name is?? give yourself a lil more value and you'll get the good men swarming.... hmm or so i think!
Author Topaze Posted April 3, 2005 Author Posted April 3, 2005 Well I don't do one night stands or sex before marriage for that matter. My point was that if men can have all the sex and female companionship they can handle without commitment and marriage...many will just go along for the ride. As women we have been our worst enemies in this respect. That is why there are so many confirmed bachelors in their late 30s and older who have never had a wife or kid and have NO intentions of marrying. This whole thing seems like a hopeless business. I am better to wait until I am in a position to move. This is very discouraging.
moimeme Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 her demands I suspect this is the essence of the problem.
Author Topaze Posted April 3, 2005 Author Posted April 3, 2005 Try to meet more Asian men. I've hit it off really well with the Asian men I have dated and who I have as platonic friends. It is much easier for me to meet eligible professional and educated Asian men. The Asian men in this city are having even more trouble finding partners than the Black women as many Asian women, particularly if they were raised here, seem to prefer White guys and the White guys are now heavily pursuing Asian women they would have shunned a few years ago. If that doesn't work....take some work overseas in the summer months and move when my kid finishes school.
kellyp1 Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 I don't know that it is all men. I know plenty of women this way too. I blame it on what we have let society become. Relationships have become more disposable now then ever before. Plus, they have published countless statistics on my generation (25-35 year olds of today) that say we are far more idealistic than other generations. We believe more in the 1-right person theory than anyone in the past has. We don't want to settle. Those that are less idealistic to me seemed to have settled down already. My parents have been married for 43 years. I already have 4 sets of friends that have been through divorce. It means making a committment and sticking with it. Look at the same people's history of staying with a company. Disposable society! As for me, I know I am single, successful, fairly good looking, love sports. I am open to dating that waiter, clerk, whatever if I believe they are capable of enjoying life and being with me. I can and do take good care of myself and make very good money. I don't need someone to be exactly like me or fit into a mold for them to pass my dating criteria. Have an open mind and maybe someone will surprise you. It doesn't hurt to have a coffee with someone and maybe you will find that they are stable as a waiter or whatever role they are in. Perhaps it is a step off point for them before they own their own restaurant. You never know... As you would not want them to jump to a judgement of you because of your child, maybe you should not be in judgement of them based on the job they hold.
Author Topaze Posted April 3, 2005 Author Posted April 3, 2005 First off I did not have my child out of wedlock so what is there to judge? I am divorced. Secondly, at this stage of my life it would be ridiculous to hook up with someone who is still a bus boy or dishwasher. If a man hasn't progresesd beyond that by his mid 30s to early 40s, when will he progress. Besides, what the heck would we have in common. It makes more sense to seek someone with whom I would be compatible rather than just settle for anyone don't you think?
april Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 Originally posted by Topaze Between the guys who monoplize your time for months and then play the "just friends" card, the plethora of severe charachter flaws and I am not talking about minor stuff (depression, bi-polar disorder, panic attacks, alcohol problems, jail time, abuse of ex-spouses), no show wonders, and players just interested in sex dating seems to be a HOPELESS business. You forgot to mention the pathological liars, and the cheaters. None of us women were looking for these type of guys - they came on to US like gangbusters, declaring their undying love. We as women, gave them the benefit of the doubt. ignored the red flags, then much later discovered what @$$holes they are, because they are expert manipulators. The saddest part? these type of men have given ALL men a bad name. So the trust issues are on the surface still, and when we do meet a 'good guy' we don't even recognize it.
RecordProducer Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 We should prohibit entrance to men in this thread. Topaze is asking WHY they don't want a serious relationship then guys come here and say "oh, that's not true we don't want one". Look who's talking! Alpha who is 40, single and loves it that way, but he doesn't mind dating women as long as he doesn't have to marry them. D'Arthez is too young so he is not attacked by this thread as a man who doesn't want to get serious with a woman. Once he is 40 and has pulled a few women's noses for months or years, he will be on our black list too. Anyway, it's a big problem. We waste our precious emotions and time with people we want to be serious with just to find out at the end that they were merely having fun and "why buy the whole cow"? So how do we recognize the right ones? Okay...how do we make a difference between a nice guy and a nice guy? (One is truly nice, the other one is a manipulator). Perhaps we should buy a lie detector and test them next time we talk about mar...oops!...the "M" word...
d'Arthez Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 Originally posted by RecordProducer D'Arthez is too young so he is not attacked by this thread as a man who doesn't want to get serious with a woman. Once he is 40 and has pulled a few women's noses for months or years, he will be on our black list too. Yes, I may be young RP. But I haven't made any major mistakes. I am no father to a child born out of wedlock, nor have I ever been married. I never knocked a girl up. I don't do drugs. And I have never been seriously interested in ONS, FWB or anything like that. I may be an idiot in your perception who is wasting his youth by behaving in a responsible fashion, but give me credit for that. Now by the time I am 40, these things might have changed. By that time, I might have an appreciation for pop music, if something better is available than the "music" which is forced upon us right now. I might have made a great career, and retired already. For all I know I might even be married. I don't know, I don't dare to predict that. Women don't differ as much from men, as you pretend RP. Women want to have their fun too, and use men for their gains too, and often leave a man behind who does not understand what he did do wrong to deserve a break-up. Of course not ALL women. But it does happen, does not it? Should I honestly expect that when I am 35 and single, and would date a woman who is just as young, that she does not have a few emotional scars, that she has never used a man for sex or money? Never had a ONS or FWB? Of course not. These "innocent" women are few and far in between. As to the question WHY men don't want serious relationships, that is not true. The majority of men are married, or are in LTRs. The question is with whom do they want serious relationships. If you were single and were approached by a man who is not suitable in your perception for you, and you reject him, he can't honestly say that women don't want serious relationships, can he? The only thing he can say is that you don't want a relationship with him. And that might be true for Topaze, at the moment.
RecordProducer Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 D'Arthez, I see. You're right. But sometimes men keep relationships for years without even considering being serious with those women. I have been non-serious with people for a few hours or days, but not months or years. The moment I had realized that I didn't want to get more serious I had broken up. By the way, I think you're an extraordinary person and a very smart young man. I have the feeling that you wouldn't hurt anyone out of selfishness. Or at least that's what it appears from your thoughts. I honestly don't know what women are like except for what I know about myself and hear from other women. You don't know what most guys do. So it doesn't necessarily refers to you. In fact, you might benefit from the fact that you're not like the rest of the guys. If you're better you can choose.
d'Arthez Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 RecordProducer, thanks for the kind words for me You deserve these words too, as you are a woman who is dedicated to her dreams . Few people will give you credit for that, until you actually have succeeded. I do know a few of the tricks that guys can pull. For instance, one of my friends is always in relationships with women, without taking them serious. We discussed that openly, and soberly if you doubt that, and he was honest with me about that, but he has not been honest with the women he has been involved with. In fact he managed to forget one of his 4 ex's of the last 2 years - a friend had to remind him of her! For him the relationships were all about convenience, and nothing more. And for the women who become involved with him, these relationships are full of hurt, and nothing more. I know some "men" who have had relationships with 2 or 3 women at the same time, and making them believe that they were exclusive with each of them. Sometimes they were found out, other times they were not found out. If these women meet a few of these men in their prime years of their lifes, I am sad to say that it will have a negative impact on their views on life and men. In their thoughts men will become b*stards, and the nice guys will be wolves in sheepsclothing (hopefully the expression is clear). Of course, these views are not entirely without foundation. No therapy can annul the effect the consistent bad behavior has had on these women and men. But of course some women do act in similar ways, and use men for sex or money. What does this lead to? That a lot of damage to men and women alike is done by these behaviors. And you cannot get away with it, as these behaviors are part of you and your thought-processes. Surely people can change, but a lot less than we think. Originally posted by april The saddest part? these type of men have given ALL men a bad name. So the trust issues are on the surface still, and when we do meet a 'good guy' we don't even recognize it. I can't judge how true april's (post 43) observations are, but from a psychological perspective, they do make a lot of sense. Egotism, issues and selfishness won't magically disappear when entering the relationship with Mr(s). Right. Even our perception of who is Mr(s). Right will be influenced by our past achievements and screw-ups.
Donut Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 quote:Originally posted by april The saddest part? these type of men have given ALL men a bad name. So the trust issues are on the surface still, and when we do meet a 'good guy' we don't even recognize it. I can't judge how true april's (post 43) observations are, but from a psychological perspective, they do make a lot of sense. Egotism, issues and selfishness won't magically disappear when entering the relationship with Mr(s). Right. Even our perception of who is Mr(s). Right will be influenced by our past achievements and screw-ups. Well said D'arthez
Lonestar Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 Originally posted by Topaze But my question is in earnest, I really don't run into a lot of men who are interested in pursuing a serious relationship just a bunch of players, head cases and "just friends" junkies. Topaze, I'm in my late 30s and running into the same problem. It seems that all the single men are single for a reason. Many of them like being players and have no interest in settling down. They're looking for FWBs, and then if they meet a women who won't give them sex on the 2nd 3rd date, they either move on to the next woman or see her as a challenge and will date her only for the outcome of winning. I've also met a lot of men my age who are not established in life. Recently I dated a career bartender who turned out to have not progressed past the mental age of 18. I've dated younger men too, up to 10 years younger than me, and they seem to be the exact same way, but have an excuse b/c of their age. Now these are the men I'm "interested" in for one reason or another. Usually I find myself attracted to strong, popular, good looking men, which is probably why I'm banging my head against this wall. I have met a few men here and there that had their sh*t together and are looking for a serious relationship, but I was not at all attracted to them physically, and that's a deal breaker for me. Either that or their lack of a backbone turns me off. I admit I am attracted to the alphamale (no connection to our very own LS alphamale).
Pocky Posted April 3, 2005 Posted April 3, 2005 Originally posted by Topaze First off I did not have my child out of wedlock so what is there to judge? I am divorced. Secondly, at this stage of my life it would be ridiculous to hook up with someone who is still a bus boy or dishwasher. If a man hasn't progresesd beyond that by his mid 30s to early 40s, when will he progress. Besides, what the heck would we have in common. It makes more sense to seek someone with whom I would be compatible rather than just settle for anyone don't you think? As you can see, compatibility is a personal issue and there is really no one that can tell you who you'd be compatible with. You personally do not feel you would be compatible with someone that you consider unsuccessful or economically inferior and some people do not feel they would be compatible with someone that is a different race. It's so hard to just love everyone for who they are on the inside isn't it?
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