Boundries, and the Point of no Return (Updated)

[merrmeade]

...No one knows if one day someone comes along and suddenly one forgets to keep their boundaries up, or lets it down just a little to experience something attractive.

 

Personally, I think Shirley Glass was onto something when she talks about Walls and Windows. Allowing persons outside the wall to get a glimpse of your personal, emotional side is to put a window in the wall (call it a boundary if you like, but this is different to me). Once you open windows for others, it is difficult to close them. The "other" has seen you "half naked" and wants more, is equally enjoying the feeling that comes from being a voyeur in your life, killing the drab boring routines of daily work. And we are off to the races.

 

I also think that there exists an unexplored aspect of infidelity that can be honestly borrowed from Psychotherapy, the concept of "transference". Every therapist knows that one part of the TREATMENT of an individual is to get them through transference - "falling in love/emotionally connecting" with the therapist. It is a natural consequence of a client giving intimate details about their life and the willingness and readiness of the therapist to TAKE that and mirror it back. The therapist must ALSO BE CAREFUL not to mistake transference for TRUE emotions - and find themselves "in love" with the client. (Lots of movies where this happens!).

 

For me, I don't doubt for a second that part of what happens when two people who have known each other as "colleagues" start to see each other as "friends" and then as "confidants" - even if its not good marriage/bad marriage talk, could easily create this transference onto the growing EA.

 

One does not have to be down in the dumps, in a sh--ty marriage for this to happen. One only needs that these issues form together at the right moment with someone even just adequately attractive enough to want to sit with them for more than to talk shop.

There are more circumstances that may contribute, but excellent summary.

 

I still think that if both partners are as other-directed as Saltine and his wife, it takes care of the circumstances.

[Saltine]

Attacking you for your strength? Hating your for your great beauty too? Please....

 

It is useful to see a person state a worthy, if theoretical, boundary. It is funny to see them try to predict the future. Why is he here if he has no fear of infidelity? Perhaps to incite an argument? Or perhaps it is subconscious fear.

 

I never said that I have no fear of infidelity. Of course I fear it. Do I think there is or has been anything going on? No I do not. I fear it like anyone else fears it. I fear it because I know it would be the end of what has been a very loving, wonderful relationship and marriage. I fear it because it would destroy my children's and grandchildren's image of what a great marriage looks like.

Both of my daughters and their prospective husbands attended a couple of pre-marriage counseling sessions before their weddings. Both couples were asked in those sessions if they knew of a married couple whose marriage was one which they admire, and would like to model their own marriage after. All said that they admire me and my wifes marriage. They are both still married to their husbands, the oldest daughter is now married for 20 years, and the younger daughter is now married for 16 years. Both marriages seem to be very strong at this point. I like to think that our example has had an influence on their relationships.

[Buckeye2]

I've asked this same question many times and have never gotten a clear answer. And maybe there is no clear or understandable answer - especially to those of us who have been betrayed, or to those who have never had an affair.

 

There's a lot of talk about a slippery slope - where an innocent friendship starts up, but over time those involved become increasingly attached to each other. All that I can understand because it happened to me.

 

But there is a point where the relationship takes a BIG step. You've been sliding down that slippery slope and suddenly you realize you are about to plunge off a cliff. For me, I call this the "get naked moment". And it is in that moment that I cannot imagine how anyone can leap from that cliff.. wouldn't a person's inner voice be screaming, warning lights flashing... all that. And yet they go ahead, get naked and consummate their relationship - and there isn't any going back from that.

 

To quote my WW: "I cried all the way home after the first time we did it, and I swore to myself that it would never happen again, that I'd never do that again. But it did."

 

I agree. Just to add a fine point. I think that a happy marriage can make the slope even more slippery. It’s like wearing a seatbelt and having four wheel drive. You think you’re protected so feel safe to drive closer to the edge of the cliff.

 

If you’re in an unhappy marriage the danger of the cliff is more evident.

[fellini]

If I had had fear of fidelity I wouldn't need to be today. It was precisely my lack of it that allowed my WS to become so involved behind me back and to my face.

 

 

I never said that I have no fear of infidelity. Of course I fear it. Do I think there is or has been anything going on? No I do not. I fear it like anyone else fears it. I fear it because I know it would be the end of what has been a very loving, wonderful relationship and marriage. I fear it because it would destroy my children's and grandchildren's image of what a great marriage looks like.

Both of my daughters and their prospective husbands attended a couple of pre-marriage counseling sessions before their weddings. Both couples were asked in those sessions if they knew of a married couple whose marriage was one which they admire, and would like to model their own marriage after. All said that they admire me and my wifes marriage. They are both still married to their husbands, the oldest daughter is now married for 20 years, and the younger daughter is now married for 16 years. Both marriages seem to be very strong at this point. I like to think that our example has had an influence on their relationships.

[merrmeade]

I don't think it's possible to have been fooled (as I and others were) like this:

He wasn't the man I thought he was. He turned out to be a cheater and a liar who only felt entitled to do whatever pleased him.

...if you really and truly—no self-deception, no halfways, no partial—have this:

To this day, I am still deeply in love with my wife, and I know she is still deeply in love with me too. I am firmly convinced that both spouses need to treat their relationship as though they are both still in the courtship phase, even after nearly a half century of marriage. We still kiss and hug frequently, we still cuddle in bed, we often tell each other I love you, we both still do caring things for each other, and we still engage in passionate sex. She is truly my soulmate, and I am hers.

...

I could not bear to bring that kind of pain to my wife, and I know she feels the same.

...which is why they can entertain all kinds of theoreticals about what they would each do IF one of them strayed. But if he's right that they mutually share this deep, other-centered love, trust and vulnerability plus fulfilling sex, it's not going to happen.

[Seachan]

Love this thread.

 

As far as my own marriage - 27 years, together 30 years - no infidelity on either side. I adore my H; he makes me feel like I'm the most beautiful, sexy middle-aged thing.

 

I notice many on infidelity forums, the BS will say that "Everyone thought we had the perfect marriage." No one would say that about my H and I. We air out differences and tackle issues head on when need be. We do not seek out conflict, but we most definitely are not conflict-avoidant.

 

And maybe that is the foundation for good individual boundaries?

 

We make it safe for each other to speak and act according to our own truths - even at the risk of disagreement. I know that as long as I am respectful, my H will not react defensively when I challenge him. My H also does not hesitate to disagree with me.

 

That gives us freedom within the M. No need to seek an OM/OW confidant.

[autumnnight]

Every time someone says "I would never" (usually while holding onto a large Bible or something), I have learned to just sit back and wait. "I would never" is about the most dangerous mindset there is.

[HereNorThere]

I think OP incorrectly assumes that all people are capable of such boundaries. Some adults appear to be normal, functioning adults, but have more issues lying underneath the surface. Some people simply lack the empathy it takes to form the kind of boundaries you need for a lifelong relationship. Some adults lack forethought and impulse control. Some adults are just naturally more aggressive and mean. Some have sexual compulsion issues. I would venture to say that finding a loyal partner without one of these issues is actually much harder than the average person would think.

 

I do like that OP emphasized his personal boundary of leaving if his wife ever cheated. I think it's very important to have your mind made up about these things BEFORE they happen, so you are better prepared and do not have to make decisions in an emotional state. With that being said, I'm sure plenty of cuckolds had their mind made up as well, but couldn't stand the emotion toll of leaving and decided a life of humiliation was easier than starting over.

 

Also, hubris can come back to bite you in the ass sometimes. I highly, highly doubt there isn't a life shattering secret hidden somewhere in OPs life that could go off like a ticking time bomb. The same goes 99% of everyone out there.

[Saltine]

Wow...Way too much drama HNT! I guess that's to be expected though. Most posters here have had more than their share of it.

[merrmeade]

Wow...Way too much drama HNT! I guess that's to be expected though. Most posters here have had more than their share of it.

Now, where did that come from, Saltine? Too much drama??? That's as unexpected as it is disappointing. I think HereNorTHere simply made you uncomfortable by turning the spotlight around on you.

 

To be honest, your question sounded more like rhetorical judgment to me anyway. Did you think that no WS or BS has thought about boundaries before? You must realize that it's assumed when you post you're open to guidance even from people who might be younger, wiser and might expose a vulnerability. Your 49-year perfect union isn't immunity from equal treatment.

 

To try and answer the thread question, I agree with other posters that you don't know what you'll do when the time comes. Though most of us assumed we'd walk right out if we ever found out our spouses had cheated, when the time comes reactions may be radically different and previous conversations on the topic, forgotten. It should not be judged, especially by someone who hasn't known this world and probably won't.

Edited January 21, 2015 by merrmeade

[Saltine]

Not sure why this thread took this turn, but while I agree that most people have a few "secrets" in their past that they would like to keep in their past, (myself included) I don't think mine rise to the level of "life shattering".

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we have witnessed infidelity among friends and family. My own brother stepped out on his wife of 25 years. She busted him by finding incriminating text messages on his cell phone. She immediately kicked him out of their house, and saw an attorney the very next day and filed for divorce. No second chances. They are now divorced for 2 years, and both he and she have moved on. Another sad case involves a couple who we were pretty good friends with. The wife in this couple found out that her husband was involved in a long term sexual affair with her best friend. Lots of crying, accusations, friendships destroyed, children scared for their future, etc. For the sake of their kids, they decided to stay together. Since we were close friends, and often spent time at their pool during summers, we got a close up glimpse of the ensuing fallout. For the next 22 years, they were constantly sniping at each other, or out and out screaming at each other, snooping on each other, constantly suspicious of what the other was doing. The resentment in their relationship was palpable. Basically, they created a living hell for themselves. He was constantly worried that his betrayed wife was going to have a revenge affair, and she was always worried that he was hiding things from her. After 22 years of hell, they divorced after he found out that she indeed had found herself a boyfriend. This episode has made us even more certain that infidelity should end a marriage. Aside from the terrible hurt that the infidelities caused upon discovery, they spent a considerable portion of their lives in anger, resentment, uncertainty, snooping and grief, only to end up divorced. That 22 years could have been spent rebuilding their own separate lives into some kind of happiness. How can you do that to yourself? In spite of what many of you are saying, I just know that I couldn't.

[autumnnight]

I cannot remember from your first post, but are you a religious man, Saltine?

[Saltine]

I cannot remember from your first post, but are you a religious man, Saltine?

 

No, I am not.

[fellini]

I don't know about you but I'm not big on building a philosophy based on what I see from behind a margarita poolside during the summer months.

 

You would really have to explain the who, the what the where the why and the when of their reconciliation process to be certain of being able to draw a conclusion from one couple's journey.

 

For all we know they just made the decision to stay for the kids and then did zilch about the fallout.

 

Another couple down the street might have had the same experience and lived to celebrate it.

 

MARRIAGE is an institution, but A MARRIAGE is not. The values are in the nuances and details in the daily life of all those involved.

 

 

Not sure why this thread took this turn, but while I agree that most people have a few "secrets" in their past that they would like to keep in their past, (myself included) I don't think mine rise to the level of "life shattering".

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we have witnessed infidelity among friends and family. My own brother stepped out on his wife of 25 years. She busted him by finding incriminating text messages on his cell phone. She immediately kicked him out of their house, and saw an attorney the very next day and filed for divorce. No second chances. They are now divorced for 2 years, and both he and she have moved on. Another sad case involves a couple who we were pretty good friends with. The wife in this couple found out that her husband was involved in a long term sexual affair with her best friend. Lots of crying, accusations, friendships destroyed, children scared for their future, etc. For the sake of their kids, they decided to stay together. Since we were close friends, and often spent time at their pool during summers, we got a close up glimpse of the ensuing fallout. For the next 22 years, they were constantly sniping at each other, or out and out screaming at each other, snooping on each other, constantly suspicious of what the other was doing. The resentment in their relationship was palpable. Basically, they created a living hell for themselves. He was constantly worried that his betrayed wife was going to have a revenge affair, and she was always worried that he was hiding things from her. After 22 years of hell, they divorced after he found out that she indeed had found herself a boyfriend. This episode has made us even more certain that infidelity should end a marriage. Aside from the terrible hurt that the infidelities caused upon discovery, they spent a considerable portion of their lives in anger, resentment, uncertainty, snooping and grief, only to end up divorced. That 22 years could have been spent rebuilding their own separate lives into some kind of happiness. How can you do that to yourself? In spite of what many of you are saying, I just know that I couldn't.

Edited January 21, 2015 by fellini

[waterwoman]

"Basically, they created a living hell for themselves. He was constantly worried that his betrayed wife was going to have a revenge affair, and she was always worried that he was hiding things from her"

 

Well there's the problem. They didn't reconcile, or even attempt to. They just stayed married.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

This sounds cliche, but your thoughts are the same thoughts of most BS's until the truth shatters their world. Just imagine if your wife DID cheat. Then what?

 

I could've written the exact same post the day before D-Day.

 

Boundaries? We didn't openly discuss boundaries because most spouses trust their partner to use boundaries and common sense. But it's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart.

[Got it]

I get never seeing yourself as someone that cheats. I think that is reasonable and commendable. But what your post, to me at least, smacks of is some condemnation about the person who finds out they have been cheated on. I hope life never tests you and you never find yourself as a BS. But I would not judge too harshly what others choose to do or not do with their marriage decisions.

 

I hope your marriage continues to be so happy and fulfilling, that is wonderful to hear. Please note, you are in the minority. Why? I don't know. But it is. What would be more helpful, I think, would be to go over some helpful tips that you two have done on a daily basis to stay so committed in life's ups and downs. How you continue to fulfill each other's "love banks".

[merrmeade]

I get never seeing yourself as someone that cheats. I think that is reasonable and commendable. But what your post, to me at least, smacks of is some condemnation about the person who finds out they have been cheated on. I hope life never tests you and you never find yourself as a BS. But I would not judge too harshly what others choose to do or not do with their marriage decisions.

 

I hope your marriage continues to be so happy and fulfilling, that is wonderful to hear. Please note, you are in the minority. Why? I don't know. But it is. What would be more helpful, I think, would be to go over some helpful tips that you two have done on a daily basis to stay so committed in life's ups and downs. How you continue to fulfill each other's "love banks".

Great post. Thank you, Got it, and I look forward to Saltine's follow-up to your request.

[Saltine]

I get never seeing yourself as someone that cheats. I think that is reasonable and commendable. But what your post, to me at least, smacks of is some condemnation about the person who finds out they have been cheated on. I hope life never tests you and you never find yourself as a BS. But I would not judge too harshly what others choose to do or not do with their marriage decisions.

 

I hope your marriage continues to be so happy and fulfilling, that is wonderful to hear. Please note, you are in the minority. Why? I don't know. But it is. What would be more helpful, I think, would be to go over some helpful tips that you two have done on a daily basis to stay so committed in life's ups and downs. How you continue to fulfill each other's "love banks".

 

Listen, I did not mean to sound like I was condemning anybody for trying to reconcile. In my OP, I was simply stating a fact; that neither my wife nor I could move past infidelity. I know my wife very well. She is a very resolute person. The guy she dated in high school before me cheated on her. She immediately dumped him when she found out. He tried to smooth things out and get back with her, begged her to forgive him, but she would have nothing to do with him after that. I have seen this resolve and determination from her many times throughout our lives, in many situations not related to cheating. She's just an extremely strong woman. I simply just KNOW she would end our marriage if she caught me stepping out. And I feel just as strongly as she does about cheating. Knowing that I would leave her if she cheated, if she did it anyway, then she must not have cared enough about preserving our marriage. Yes I would be crushed. I'm sure I would wish things could be the same again, but deep down I know things would never be the same. I wouldn't put myself through all of that pain while wondering if she would just do it again sometime.

 

You ask what tips I can offer to keep the "love banks" full. I dont think there is a one size fits all answer. For us, I think we both recognized that after about 6 or 7 years of marriage, we kind of settled into a lazy comfort zone, like most couples do. It's almost like a mindset that says "Ive already conquered this hill". No need to win his/her heart, because I've already done that, and he/she is mine. A marriage certificate does not grant you a deed to his/her heart. The heart needs to be won over and over and over again.

Do you remember how you felt when you were courting your SO? Do you remember the little things that you said and did back then to win his/her heart? You were always trying to put your best game face on. Constant displays of affection, compliments, small acts of service, little love notes here and there, gifts for no reason. Those things should never stop. Even now, after so many years together, those things still say I love you, and I want your love.

 

And finally, I have to say that I think luck plays a huge part in selecting and marrying a partner. I was 17 years old when I started dating my wife. What could I have possibly known back then about character traits, personality types, her upbringing, etc. Her incredible beauty is what attracted me to her. Yes, she was absolutely gorgeous! As the years rolled by, I came to find out who she really was in her heart. She was raised in a very loving, strongly Catholic household. She had a very solid moral code and ethics. She was/is honest to a fault. She is caring and empathetic. She doesn't dance around issues or pretend like they aren't there. If something is bothering her, she tells me about it immediately, and tries to get things resolved.

Luck could have easily gone the other way with the person you got married to, and the ensuing years would reveal that you are now attached to a person with many character flaws, and is selfish and feels entitled. So, yes I was extremely lucky in that I gave my heart to, and married the right person.

 

I truly wish that all of you find love and happiness in your marriages and lives. If you have suffered the tragedy of infidelity, and make the decision to try to reconcile and get your marriage back on track, I wish you nothing but success.

[Got it]

Listen, I did not mean to sound like I was condemning anybody for trying to reconcile. In my OP, I was simply stating a fact; that neither my wife nor I could move past infidelity. I know my wife very well. She is a very resolute person. The guy she dated in high school before me cheated on her. She immediately dumped him when she found out. He tried to smooth things out and get back with her, begged her to forgive him, but she would have nothing to do with him after that. I have seen this resolve and determination from her many times throughout our lives, in many situations not related to cheating. She's just an extremely strong woman. I simply just KNOW she would end our marriage if she caught me stepping out. And I feel just as strongly as she does about cheating. Knowing that I would leave her if she cheated, if she did it anyway, then she must not have cared enough about preserving our marriage. Yes I would be crushed. I'm sure I would wish things could be the same again, but deep down I know things would never be the same. I wouldn't put myself through all of that pain while wondering if she would just do it again sometime.

 

You ask what tips I can offer to keep the "love banks" full. I dont think there is a one size fits all answer. For us, I think we both recognized that after about 6 or 7 years of marriage, we kind of settled into a lazy comfort zone, like most couples do. It's almost like a mindset that says "Ive already conquered this hill". No need to win his/her heart, because I've already done that, and he/she is mine. A marriage certificate does not grant you a deed to his/her heart. The heart needs to be won over and over and over again.

Do you remember how you felt when you were courting your SO? Do you remember the little things that you said and did back then to win his/her heart? You were always trying to put your best game face on. Constant displays of affection, compliments, small acts of service, little love notes here and there, gifts for no reason. Those things should never stop. Even now, after so many years together, those things still say I love you, and I want your love.

 

And finally, I have to say that I think luck plays a huge part in selecting and marrying a partner. I was 17 years old when I started dating my wife. What could I have possibly known back then about character traits, personality types, her upbringing, etc. Her incredible beauty is what attracted me to her. Yes, she was absolutely gorgeous! As the years rolled by, I came to find out who she really was in her heart. She was raised in a very loving, strongly Catholic household. She had a very solid moral code and ethics. She was/is honest to a fault. She is caring and empathetic. She doesn't dance around issues or pretend like they aren't there. If something is bothering her, she tells me about it immediately, and tries to get things resolved.

Luck could have easily gone the other way with the person you got married to, and the ensuing years would reveal that you are now attached to a person with many character flaws, and is selfish and feels entitled. So, yes I was extremely lucky in that I gave my heart to, and married the right person.

 

I truly wish that all of you find love and happiness in your marriages and lives. If you have suffered the tragedy of infidelity, and make the decision to try to reconcile and get your marriage back on track, I wish you nothing but success.

 

Saltine, I get it. I just think it is hard for anyone to predict the future for themselves let alone another person. And there is a wide chasm difference between dating and breaking up and a marriage as long as yours and breaking up. But I honestly hope you never have to come close to addressing that.

 

Thank you for suggestions, I agree, one size doesn't fit all, but most of what you wrote is pretty universal. It is true, one most invest every day. I can't say I did that in my first marriage but it is something I am acutely aware of in my second. I too met my ex husband at 17 and didn't know anything about anything. While we divorced it was a good marriage and a good guy. But what I have now is what I always knew marriage should have. Not all sunshine and roses (goodness no) but the enormity of the love, the all encompassing connection, it is hard to describe but makes it very black and white.

 

Some of what you have stated I have read in John Gottman's books. I have learned so much about how one fights, appreciates, and acknowledges has the biggest impact on the success of the marriage.

 

And I agree, some luck doesn't hurt.

 

Good luck to you and yours, stick around, I think you could be a very good voice of advice for those seeking marital happiness.

 

The one thing LS has taught me is be humble. You never know what tomorrow will throw at you and you see the struggles that some face.

[autumnnight]

You ask what tips I can offer to keep the "love banks" full. I dont think there is a one size fits all answer. For us, I think we both recognized that after about 6 or 7 years of marriage, we kind of settled into a lazy comfort zone, like most couples do. It's almost like a mindset that says "Ive already conquered this hill". No need to win his/her heart, because I've already done that, and he/she is mine. A marriage certificate does not grant you a deed to his/her heart. The heart needs to be won over and over and over again.

Do you remember how you felt when you were courting your SO? Do you remember the little things that you said and did back then to win his/her heart? You were always trying to put your best game face on. Constant displays of affection, compliments, small acts of service, little love notes here and there, gifts for no reason. Those things should never stop. Even now, after so many years together, those things still say I love you, and I want your love.

 

This is gold.

[TrustedthenBusted]

Love this thread.

 

As far as my own marriage - 27 years, together 30 years - no infidelity on either side. I adore my H; he makes me feel like I'm the most beautiful, sexy middle-aged thing.

 

I notice many on infidelity forums, the BS will say that "Everyone thought we had the perfect marriage." No one would say that about my H and I. We air out differences and tackle issues head on when need be. We do not seek out conflict, but we most definitely are not conflict-avoidant.

 

And maybe that is the foundation for good individual boundaries?

 

We make it safe for each other to speak and act according to our own truths - even at the risk of disagreement. I know that as long as I am respectful, my H will not react defensively when I challenge him. My H also does not hesitate to disagree with me.

 

That gives us freedom within the M. No need to seek an OM/OW confidant.

 

This is wonderful. Good for you. Doesn't actually offer an ounce of protection, but still wonderful.

 

I have to ask... how do you "know" there has been no infidelity? I mean we all knew too.....until we didn't.

[Seachan]

Ok. Fair question. I *know* there's been no infidelity on my side. As far as h, no suspicious behavior, no hiding phone, password is open to me, no sliding eyes towards other women.

 

Also, we were both each other's first. We were in early 20‘s when we met. He's very handsome and athletic. Had plenty of opportunity but waited for the right one: me . Even then, he didn't want us to have full on sexual R until we were married. (Lots of time spent on third base though. LOL). I sense he would feel he violated himself were he to have an A.

 

I've spent lots of time on infidelity forums trying to heal from the A in my parents' M, and the nightmare that ensued. I don't see any red flags in my H's behavior.

 

But no one is immune. And so I stay on these forums to learn. I can try to protect my M by connecting with him as much as I can. If he were to have an A at some point, I want to know I've done everything I can to be a good W. If it happens anyway I can let him go in good conscience.

[SpiralOut]

You can set whatever boundaries you like, but that doesn't mean that other people will respect them. Even if they know the consequences that won't necessarily stop them.