For the sake of the OW, I'd LOVE to stop hearing this...

January 19, 2015

Well, as Arthur Fonzarelli once said, "If you want to swim, don't sit on the beach." If you feel you need to leave, leave and close the door behind you. How many men have you ever heard say, "My mistress and I were at odds because I chose not to leave my wife for her, but she eventually convinced me to and now we're living happily ever after?" If a man wants to leave his wife for another woman, he will. If he doesn't, he won't. You have to understand his end goal isn't necessarily to have one woman.

January 19, 2015

My WW said something similar to me about a week or two after discovery. Trying to find a way to remain in contact with the OM, she said:"But he's my friend." (I could tell as the words were coming out of her mouth, even she could tell how childish it sounded.) Correct. He is/was your friend, I thought to myself. But again, this is about so much more now. Make a decision. Take a step towards SOMETHING. Try to accept that there are now consequences, that there are other people involved, and that "It's hard!" is more a statement of the obvious than an acceptable explanation for wanting some things to remain the same. I know it's hard. And I don't have a problem with someone saying it's hard. Don't expect other people to just rub your back, give you a soft kiss on the forehead and wait for you to make a decision, though.

January 19, 2015

[Affairs] are very entrenched relationships and, as much as everyone outside of these would like to think they're all about you-know-what, they are almost never only about that. While the sex is often heated and wonderful, there's a lot more to them -- a deep connection and attachment.

Bathtub, I see much misinformation in your post.

Affairs are almost never only about sex? I disagree. There certainly are many affairs with a deep emotional component, but to say it's the overwhelming majority isn't plausible to me. But to allow you your point, let's say that 40% of affairs are just about sex (on the MM side), and 60% have a strong emotional component of one type or another (again on MM side). That is hardly an argument in favor of affairs! On the contrary, I think it is WORSE to be used emotionally by a MM than just used for sex.

I am a big advocate of NC for everyone who is trying to exit a painful, destructive relationship but finds themselves slipping back in. Yes, I would apply that to divorcing or separated spouses too if a person were having trouble staying away. (I don't recall seeing that much on LS.) Yes, NC is an end state, and it is also a technique that can be applied starting on Day 1, once a person has come to the realization that they want out. NC has helped numerous people, and it's one of the simplest, easy to use, and effective techniques we have.

If the OW recognizes that the affair needs to end, then she needs to state that to the MM and let him know what she plans to do. In other words, have a goodbye conversation; i.e., "we're not ever going to talk again", or "we're not going to be alone together again", "I'm really sorry, but this is the way it's going to have to be"...whatever.

So, I think you're advocating a goodbye conversation followed by NC? Or a goodbye conversation followed by low contact or moderate contact? How would you recommend the OW deal with the constant temptations, stress, and anguish of repeated contact with her ex-AP? Do you feel that the OW must deliver a goodbye conversation?

BTW, I am not necessarily opposed to goodbye conversations, as long as they're structured to reduce the risk and pain to the person who is trying to exit the toxic relationship. All to often, attempts at in-person goodbye messages turn into affair restarts. And continued contact leads to more anguish and affair restarts.

January 19, 2015

Yes, I agree that there are times when some people don't deserve a goodbye conversation but, most of the time, that's not the case. It's simply not realistic to cut people off without even one last conversation. But I see this advice so often that it baffles me. I wonder how many people would really just end a relationship without a word when the two of you talk numerous times a day and have sex.

*raises hand* I've been involved in long term affairs (first marriage...I'd cut off a foot before cheating on my DH) and simply stopped talking to my AP by going NC. I'm a grown woman. I don't owe anybody an explanation for what I choose to do. The way I see it if you're involved with a married person or are a married person involved with someone not your spouse, what the heck did you think was going to happen? Eventually, the relationship stops working for whatever reason and someone is bound to go NC.

January 19, 2015

Well, as Arthur Fonzarelli once said, "If you want to swim, don't sit on the beach." If you feel you need to leave, leave and close the door behind you. How many men have you ever heard say, "My mistress and I were at odds because I chose not to leave my wife for her, but she eventually convinced me to and now we're living happily ever after?" If a man wants to leave his wife for another woman, he will. If he doesn't, he won't. You have to understand his end goal isn't necessarily to have one woman.

^^^This in bold.

So true, but a fact often ignored by those besotted.

January 19, 2015

BTW, I am not necessarily opposed to goodbye conversations, as long as they're structured to reduce the risk and pain to the person who is trying to exit the toxic relationship. All too often, attempts at in-person goodbye messages turn into affair restarts. And continued contact leads to more anguish and affair restarts.

YES! If one chooses to notify their AP they are going to go NC the AP usually tries to suck them back in. Just going NC gets the point across fairly quickly and greatly reduces drama. Not to mention the AP gets the point much faster than if there was still contact even if its limited contact.

January 19, 2015

I,individually, have no problem with couples trying to reconcile (though I have yet to see it truly work), but I think those that post in the OM/OW forum are angry, and do not help the issue at hand.

Does this mean that you do not believe any of the reconciled posters on here have truly reconciled?

January 20, 2015

I haven't been able to read all responses yet. I'll be back soon, just a really crazy, busy day today.

January 20, 2015

I'm not at all opposed to marriages being worked out. That's ridiculous. I do think that a lot of people stay in marriages that they shouldn't be in, and they screw up their kids in the process. But that's their business. All I'm saying is that people in an affair aren't any more likely to just cut bait and run anymore than a married couple would. No one would tell a married person to just cut off communication and walk, because they know how ridiculous that is.

Honestly, my affair with xMM was more intense than my marriage was. In many ways, I felt married to him because of the intensity and emotional closeness. I had a bf once that I felt the same way about. It's just not always about whether you share the same four walls and pay bills together. Maybe that's the pisser. Maybe that's what annoys so many people. They'd like to think an affair is nothing and their anger about that prompts them to give unrealistic advice.

I do understand that sometimes a person does need to finally just end it, for whatever reason. It's the stock responses that I see over and over again that make me concerned for the OW who is in enough turmoil without having to digest that info. Then again, that's probably the intent. Well, I expected my post to be misunderstood but I'm happy to see that a lot of people understand where I'm coming from.

Edited January 20, 2015 by bathtub-row

January 20, 2015

Does this mean that you do not believe any of the reconciled posters on here have truly reconciled?

I feel I was clear in my feelings regarding this.

January 20, 2015

Does this mean that you do not believe any of the reconciled posters on here have truly reconciled?

I feel like reconciliation is a process and most of us BS on here are still "in process" so to speak- I also believe there are some that believe an affair is so powerful that the WS will never again be able to love their spouse, they have to believe this because otherwise they had to admit that sometimes, affairs are nothing more than a huge mistake in the eyes of the WS, one that brings nothing but shame and pain- JMO-

January 20, 2015

I,individually, have no problem with couples trying to reconcile (though I have yet to see it truly work), but I think those that post in the OM/OW forum are angry, and do not help the issue at hand.

Does this mean that you do not believe any of the reconciled posters on here have truly reconciled?

I feel I was clear in my feelings regarding this.

Cool. You are judging my marriage and that of others on LS. Please tell me what else you know about my marriage that I am unaware of.

January 20, 2015

Cool. You are judging my marriage and that of others on LS. Please tell me what else you know about my marriage that I am unaware of.

I am simply stating that what I see is a bunch of people in unhappy relationships. If you feel you are happy, awesome. I hope your partner is too. From what I see, it almost never works. I hope the best for you, but am sad that you will probably always have pain.

January 20, 2015

I wouldn't see it as any different than thinking a M that started as an A couldn't "truly" work. This is probably a topic for a different thread, but one could easily argue that couples who R after infidelity are more likely to truly work out than couples who started as A's. I know just from personal experience that's definitely the case.

January 20, 2015

I wouldn't see it as any different than thinking a M that started as an A couldn't "truly" work. This is probably a topic for a different thread, but one could easily argue that couples who R after infidelity are more likely to truly work out than couples who started as A's. I know just from personal experience that's definitely the case.

I understand your point and will take the jab. I see very few who reconcile and are truly happy. I hope it happens because I believe in love. It seems that I have a reputation for not wanting R couples to be happy. Absolutely not the case. I hope more than anything that if you (general) reconcile that it is a true reconciliation and not just "staying for the money" "staying for the kids" "staying because I don't have any life skills", which is what I see a lot here. Especially here.

January 20, 2015

Stop communicating!
Block him!
End all communication now!
Don't ever speak to him again!
Why are you even texting him???
Block all emails!
Quit your job tomorrow!
Call his wife!
Cut off your right arm!

(Ok, maybe not the last one...)

I just need to say it. I see these statements all the time and I'm sure that when people say them to the OW, they mean well. But, for the most part, this isn't useful or realistic advice, and I feel the need to point this out for the sake of the OW who's already in a lot of turmoil. Someone who's in a relationship that's as intense as an affair is, is not going to just cut off contact and walk away out of the clear blue sky. It just doesn't work that way.

If the OW sees the need to end the relationship, then they're unlikely to just block the guy and refuse to speak from that point on. These are very entrenched relationships and, as much as everyone outside of these would like to think they're all about you-know-what, they are almost never only about that. While the sex is often heated and wonderful, there's a lot more to them -- a deep connection and attachment.

Just because a MM chooses to stay in his marriage, don't necessarily take that to mean that the OW meant/means nothing to him. It's often out of practicality that the MM stays in his marriage. I know a lot of people don't like to hear this, but it's true. I will never, ever forget a post by a woman on another site about infidelity who talked about when she found out about her husband's affair and told him that, if they were going to stay together, he could never contact the OW again. She said that he cried his heart out and through his tears, begged her, "Please don't take away my best friend!" I think that shows in a very clear way that, while a man will stay in his marriage (for whatever reason) like this man did, he is often going through a kind of living hell himself. Now, before everyone jumps in with examples of how this isn't true, I know already. I'm just pointing out how complicated these relationships, these love triangles, can be. That was years ago when I read that. To this day, I can't shake the image of that man crying his heart out and, in a ridiculous plea, begging not to be separated from his best friend. Very, very sad.

Instead of giving advice that just isn't going to work, I really wish people would stop saying these things. If the OW recognizes that the affair needs to end, then she needs to state that to the MM and let him know what she plans to do. In other words, have a goodbye conversation; i.e., "we're not ever going to talk again", or "we're not going to be alone together again", "I'm really sorry, but this is the way it's going to have to be"...whatever. I just wish all the unrealistic advice would stop. These are not robots you're dealing with.

I suppose this post will irritate some people but I think these words create a lot of confusion and tension with the person who's trying to end a relationship that is deeply emotional for them. Just my thoughts.

I agree with you to an extent. In my situation I wished my husband well and I would not stand in the way of his affair.

I had no wish to give ultimatums or demands. Ironically, and naive as I was it had the opposite affect and he immediately, on his own accord, went into immediate no contact with the ow.

It's odd how, in some situations, the reality of be free to go, is not really the goal. Often, it's wanting both, but once there's a real choice to be made most WS's are faced with their own issues in regard to their actions and consequences.

The affair triangulation is built on thin ice. It's really a positioning of narrow narrative that many ow/om buy into as fact but is only from one perspective.

If I had two homes, one I lived in and one I secretly had, I am sure it would be difficult to give it up. It's human nature to crave more if more is available.

I don't go to restaurants that are " all you can eat buffets", the first time I went to one it was a turn off for me personally, most of the patrons were overweight and clearly not lacking nourishment, it was just more of more.

January 20, 2015

I am simply stating that what I see is a bunch of people in unhappy relationships. If you feel you are happy, awesome. I hope your partner is too. From what I see, it almost never works. I hope the best for you, but am sad that you will probably always have pain.

I wouldn't paint it with as broad a brush as this, but when someone is still posting about angst and woe and wondering if their FWS is really good enough years after the fact, then I have my doubts as to whether that is actually a recovered marriage. When someone's life and conversations are still so pervasive with the infidelity topic years after the fact, that is not recovery, that is replay followed by replay followed by replay. I have yet to figure out what the secondary gain is for that.

January 20, 2015

I will never, ever forget a post by a woman on another site about infidelity who talked about when she found out about her husband's affair and told him that, if they were going to stay together, he could never contact the OW again. She said that he cried his heart out and through his tears, begged her, "Please don't take away my best friend!"
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I could NEVER EVER stay with a man who said this to me. I would be selling myself way short. I wonder how he would have felt if his wife was getting laid by an OM, but wanted to keep him as her 'best friend'.

Pure selfishness.

No kidding. I would be so sickened that he behaved like a whining toddler and I his mother that I would never look at him with anything other than disgust. Yet somehow this is an example of MM's love for OW? No, it is a sign of utter weakness, ridiculousness and delusion.

January 20, 2015

I agree that many times there is a connection in an affair and love is shared. However, when a relationship is creating a lot of emotional stress in a person, and it's apparent that the relationship has no future, the intensity of the feelings won't change the outcome. Whether there is intense passion on both sides or it is only the OW in love, the most effective way of ending the pain and reducing the likelihood of being "sucked back in" is No Contact.

I don't think it is unrealistic at all. Hard? Yes, but not unrealistic. We are not slaves to our emotions. We do not have to be led around by our feelings. And even though OW may feel weak, there is strength there to allow logic and self preservation to override those feelings. We learn during our toddler years that we cannot act on all of our emotions. So it's very possible for an OW (like all humans) to have intense emotions, but decide not to act on them.

I have seen in many posts how No Contact empowers an OW to move on with their lives. OW have come on LS to say they lost themselves with MM and No Contact brought them back. It gives them a sense of control over their lives again. During the affair, it seems that many OW's put their future in MM's hands, waiting for MM to choose, their own lives stuck in limbo. The emotions are actually keeping them stuck, as they would never tolerate it if the feelings weren't so intense. No Contact allows them to control their future again. Any contact with the MM is likely to create an emotional response or stress in the OW.

No Contact is a healthy boundary that the OW can set to protect herself from further pain. Continuing contact, trying to be friends, discussing feelings, reminiscing... all of that prolongs healing when the end goal is to get over MM and move on with their lives. It's easy to see this over & over on LS- OWs will get tired of waiting. The relationship gets more "push pull" as both MM and OW try to keep the good parts of the affair active, and suppress the reality that this affair has an expiration date. So more arguments happen, OW feels hurt and used and MM tries to keep OW there with false promises and declarations of love. This dynamic can go on for years and meanwhile, in many cases, OWs youth is passing her by. If she wants her own family, precious time is wasted. NC helps to end the dynamic and puts the focus back on herself, instead of MM and the affair.

Emotions and love are awesome feelings if they happen in an environment where the feelings can grow and be expressed. However, feelings and emotions can hinder growth if they happen in affair scenarios, relationships with addicts or other unhealthy situations. Love doesn't conquer all, and the sooner OW realizes this the better off she'll be. There comes a point when OW must realize "Yes, we love each other, but this love is harming me. It is destroying me. And it is not healthy for me to be in contact with him even though I love him." No contact helps to keep that resolve and keeps MM from being able to sweet talk his way back in for more.

I don't dispute that some MM's feel they love OW intensely, but most of these MM know they will never leave their marriages. They know that eventually OW will get tired of their broken promises. They expect the affair will end, but try to prolong it for as long as OW is willing, despite her pain. They don't want to lose OW, even though they know they will not give her the future she wants. I think that is very selfish of MM and exploits an OW's hopes and dreams. I don't think that is very loving, and I believe if MM truly loved OW in the sense that he cared for her well being and, had her best interests at heart, then he will let her go. When he doesn't, no contact helps OW to detach, so that her emotions don't lead her down the wrong path again.

Just like you bathtub row, I see many OW focus on the love and the intensity of the feelings. And I do understand because they are on the receiving end of MM's emotions, which are often genuine. But for many men, love and connection is just not as important to them as their commitment to their families. The romance is thought of as an extra indulgence, but they view their marriage is essential. They want it, but don't need it. So in that sense, I don't think an affair compares to the marriage at all. OW may think that feeling in love is the most important thing in the world, but if MM feels that his commitment to his wife & family are more important, what's the point of feeding into the emotions & romantic energy? Many OW hang on way too long because of love, and they also feel that love validates the relationship. I understand this, because love/romance/connection is a top priority to OW. However, what I think they miss is even when love/romance/connection exists, it's not enough to trump a MM's commitment to his marriage. So unless OW is willing to put her hopes and dreams aside in order to feel love and connection, what is the point of contact? I think it just brings OW more pain, and that is why I will advise No Contact.

January 20, 2015

I am simply stating that what I see is a bunch of people in unhappy relationships. If you feel you are happy, awesome. I hope your partner is too. From what I see, it almost never works. I hope the best for you, but am sad that you will probably always have pain.

oh dear goody my friend and I mean that,i know you are a very nice person,misunderstood perhaps

I promise you ive haven't been this happy in years with my husband,it hasn't been easy,and I know marriage is hard work,but we are both putting in the work.

but lets not forget to mention what the stats say about being in a relationship with your xap,hardly ever works out,but you guys seem to be making it work right?so lets not lump everyone who decides to reconcile in the category that it will never work out,and I will also never tell an xow/xom that it will never work out with there xap either.

if 2 people are willing and able to put in the work it can work out,and sometimes better than it ever was

January 20, 2015

I understand your point and will take the jab. I see very few who reconcile and are truly happy. I hope it happens because I believe in love. It seems that I have a reputation for not wanting R couples to be happy. Absolutely not the case. I hope more than anything that if you (general) reconcile that it is a true reconciliation and not just "staying for the money" "staying for the kids" "staying because I don't have any life skills", which is what I see a lot here. Especially here.

The assumption that most R for your listed reasons is frustrating. In my case I make pretty much the same as my H, we are both in careers that we have had for years and are stable, our kids are teen and young adult and could both decide for themselves how custody would work if we separated. I decided to stay with him because I love him and he making up for his choice. He had an A that lasted under 4 months and it has been over a year since it ended with no red flags. We are happy, not happy about what has happened, but happy together. Actually a lot happier than the year prior to the A. You claim to be really happy and not a worry that your relationship will end in the same way that it started, and the odds are against you. I personally have no idea if your relationship will survive against the odds, but you seem to feel that mine won't. I think we are all coming from our own experience and the man you are with left a marriage for another woman, the man I'm with didn't. So it depends on how each situation is viewed some might think I have a better shot than you, others may not. Please try not to make blanket statements about people who are living differently than you.

January 20, 2015

I am simply stating that what I see is a bunch of people in unhappy relationships. If you feel you are happy, awesome. I hope your partner is too. From what I see, it almost never works. I hope the best for you, but am sad that you will probably always have pain.

Hmm... How do you feel about posts which suggest that a marriage between the OW and the MM is doomed to fail, that it can never be truly successful because of how it started? I bet you would be (quite rightly) pi$$ed off. In fact I have seen you totally pi$$ed off at posts like that and you complain about it. So therefore why do you then feel the need to make sweeping generalisations about reconciled marriages?

I should add that I find your "sadness" for my pain rather condescending, totally ignoring the fact that I am not I pain and that you got that judgement of my marriage completely wrong. Unless of course you really do believe that you know more about my marriage than my husband and I do.

Reconciliation can and does work. Not for all but for way more than you think (or may want to believe)

January 20, 2015

oh dear goody my friend and I mean that,i know you are a very nice person,misunderstood perhaps
I promise you ive haven't been this happy in years with my husband,it hasn't been easy,and I know marriage is hard work,but we are both putting in the work.
but lets not forget to mention what the stats say about being in a relationship with your xap,hardly ever works out,but you guys seem to be making it work right?so lets not lump everyone who decides to reconcile in the category that it will never work out,and I will also never tell an xow/xom that it will never work out with there xap either.
if 2 people are willing and able to put in the work it can work out,and sometimes better than it ever was

I sure hope so. I want to be proven wrong.

January 20, 2015

Hmm... How do you feel about posts which suggest that a marriage between the OW and the MM is doomed to fail, that it can never be truly successful because of how it started? I bet you would be (quite rightly) pi$$ed off. In fact I have seen you totally pi$$ed off at posts like that and you complain about it. So therefore why do you then feel the need to make sweeping generalisations about reconciled marriages?

I should add that I find your "sadness" for my pain rather condescending, totally ignoring the fact that I am not I pain and that you got that judgement of my marriage completely wrong. Unless of course you really do believe that you know more about my marriage than my husband and I do.

Reconciliation can and does work. Not for all but for way more than you think (or may want to believe)

I guess we shall see. I did not mean to infer condescension. My apologies. I have clearly hit a nerve.

January 21, 2015

I sure hope so. I want to be proven wrong.

In your case...

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For the sake of the OW, I'd LOVE to stop hearing this...

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