For the sake of the OW, I'd LOVE to stop hearing this...

January 19, 2015

Stop communicating!
Block him!
End all communication now!
Don't ever speak to him again!
Why are you even texting him???
Block all emails!
Quit your job tomorrow!
Call his wife!
Cut off your right arm!

(Ok, maybe not the last one...)

I just need to say it. I see these statements all the time and I'm sure that when people say them to the OW, they mean well. But, for the most part, this isn't useful or realistic advice, and I feel the need to point this out for the sake of the OW who's already in a lot of turmoil. Someone who's in a relationship that's as intense as an affair is, is not going to just cut off contact and walk away out of the clear blue sky. It just doesn't work that way.

If the OW sees the need to end the relationship, then they're unlikely to just block the guy and refuse to speak from that point on. These are very entrenched relationships and, as much as everyone outside of these would like to think they're all about you-know-what, they are almost never only about that. While the sex is often heated and wonderful, there's a lot more to them -- a deep connection and attachment.

Just because a MM chooses to stay in his marriage, don't necessarily take that to mean that the OW meant/means nothing to him. It's often out of practicality that the MM stays in his marriage. I know a lot of people don't like to hear this, but it's true. I will never, ever forget a post by a woman on another site about infidelity who talked about when she found out about her husband's affair and told him that, if they were going to stay together, he could never contact the OW again. She said that he cried his heart out and through his tears, begged her, "Please don't take away my best friend!" I think that shows in a very clear way that, while a man will stay in his marriage (for whatever reason) like this man did, he is often going through a kind of living hell himself. Now, before everyone jumps in with examples of how this isn't true, I know already. I'm just pointing out how complicated these relationships, these love triangles, can be. That was years ago when I read that. To this day, I can't shake the image of that man crying his heart out and, in a ridiculous plea, begging not to be separated from his best friend. Very, very sad.

Instead of giving advice that just isn't going to work, I really wish people would stop saying these things. If the OW recognizes that the affair needs to end, then she needs to state that to the MM and let him know what she plans to do. In other words, have a goodbye conversation; i.e., "we're not ever going to talk again", or "we're not going to be alone together again", "I'm really sorry, but this is the way it's going to have to be"...whatever. I just wish all the unrealistic advice would stop. These are not robots you're dealing with.

I suppose this post will irritate some people but I think these words create a lot of confusion and tension with the person who's trying to end a relationship that is deeply emotional for them. Just my thoughts.

Edited January 19, 2015 by bathtub-row

January 19, 2015

Respectfully, you have the right to your opinion and how you'd like others to give advice, but unfortunately it doesn't work this way. It's up to each individual who is posting to decide for themselves what is helpful and what it isn't.

It's unfair of you to try to dictate what advice may or may not work for each person on LS posting.

January 19, 2015

Bathtub,

I am fond of your posts. I agree with your sentiments.

I advocate NC because it is a way to distance oneself from the deeply disturbing emotions of the A. It gave me breathing space away from the pressure of a secret relationship.

I talked at length to xAP about how I needed to do this. He was distraught and cried too. He kept saying..."Forever is such a long time not to see each other. and we don't have many years left to enjoy".

It wasn't like we were teenagers. As you may know I am 67 and he is 72. Of course he wasn't going to uproot his life at that late stage and he could see I was becoming deeply unhappy with the secrecy of the A.

Everybody should exit the A in their own fashion. Some strategies make it a little easier... whatever floats the boat Bath tub..... that's a dreadful pun.

Poppy.

January 19, 2015

Most of the OW who come here are hurting. They feel marginalized, used, lied to, etc. It is sound advice to tell those who feel that way to leave the relationship. Often times they already want to and just need encouragement from others to take that step. What would you prefer the advice be?

January 19, 2015

If the OW sees the need to end the relationship, then they're unlikely to just block the guy and refuse to speak from that point on. These are very entrenched relationships and, as much as everyone outside of these would like to think they're all about you-know-what, they are almost never only about that. While the sex is often heated and wonderful, there's a lot more to them -- a deep connection and attachment.

While there certainly are affairs out there like this, there are also ones that are complete use jobs and yes, only about one thing and one thing only. These often become complete destructive to a female's (or male's, won't be sexist here) well being. While I do agree having a NC conversation is the best way to go, I think NC is the absolute best way to begin healing, especially in these types of affairs.

January 19, 2015

The blocking and NC route are not for the WSs who are losing their best friends. It is to help the OW/OMs heal from what is usually a toxic relationship. It is to help them move on. Many MMs don't want to lose their APs and will continue to push this issue. And many OW/OM have an admitted weakness where the MM is concerned. So block, stop communicating, and even quit your job may be really good advice.

But the thing that makes LS so great is we all have different ways of looking at the situation and give different advice.

On a side note. some of the healthiest marriages are where they are best friends with each other and put the others needs as a higher priority than "outsiders". And an AP is a perfect example of an outsider.

January 19, 2015

I'm a fOW and I found NC guidelines incredibly useful- it really got me out of a bad space with mm and constant up and downs. I think it broke the cycle- and was the only way to do it.

I ended up getting back together with MM and he divorced but I still think NC is a fantastic tool to get somebody out of a viscous circle that is soul destroying.

January 19, 2015

I partly agree. Based on different situations between OWs and MMs, the NC has to be realistic for OW to act upon, otherwise NC rules are just another kind of unrealistic new year resolution for people to display their mindsetting at that very moment, but then without willpower, those NC rules just go to the smoke.

And also first of all, OWs need to (wo)man to be honest with herself, knowing what she really wants in reality. If determining to be OW for the MM, then stick with it and carrying on a right affair. If OW determines to cut off communication with MM, then using NC rule and stick with it.

Supposely NC rule is not a game or bargain power just because MM at that moment did not leave wife.

Stop communicating!
Block him!
End all communication now!
Don't ever speak to him again!
Why are you even texting him???
Block all emails!
Quit your job tomorrow!
Call his wife!
Cut off your right arm!

(Ok, maybe not the last one...)

I just need to say it. I see these statements all the time and I'm sure that when people say them to the OW, they mean well. But, for the most part, this isn't useful or realistic advice, and I feel the need to point this out for the sake of the OW who's already in a lot of turmoil. Someone who's in a relationship that's as intense as an affair is, is not going to just cut off contact and walk away out of the clear blue sky. It just doesn't work that way.

If the OW sees the need to end the relationship, then they're unlikely to just block the guy and refuse to speak from that point on. These are very entrenched relationships and, as much as everyone outside of these would like to think they're all about you-know-what, they are almost never only about that. While the sex is often heated and wonderful, there's a lot more to them -- a deep connection and attachment.

Just because a MM chooses to stay in his marriage, don't necessarily take that to mean that the OW meant/means nothing to him. It's often out of practicality that the MM stays in his marriage. I know a lot of people don't like to hear this, but it's true. I will never, ever forget a post by a woman on another site about infidelity who talked about when she found out about her husband's affair and told him that, if they were going to stay together, he could never contact the OW again. She said that he cried his heart out and through his tears, begged her, "Please don't take away my best friend!" I think that shows in a very clear way that, while a man will stay in his marriage (for whatever reason) like this man did, he is often going through a kind of living hell himself. Now, before everyone jumps in with examples of how this isn't true, I know already. I'm just pointing out how complicated these relationships, these love triangles, can be. That was years ago when I read that. To this day, I can't shake the image of that man crying his heart out and, in a ridiculous plea, begging not to be separated from his best friend. Very, very sad.

Instead of giving advice that just isn't going to work, I really wish people would stop saying these things. If the OW recognizes that the affair needs to end, then she needs to state that to the MM and let him know what she plans to do. In other words, have a goodbye conversation; i.e., "we're not ever going to talk again", or "we're not going to be alone together again", "I'm really sorry, but this is the way it's going to have to be"...whatever. I just wish all the unrealistic advice would stop. These are not robots you're dealing with.

I suppose this post will irritate some people but I think these words create a lot of confusion and tension with the person who's trying to end a relationship that is deeply emotional for them. Just my thoughts.

January 19, 2015

NC shouldn't be a weapon against an A partner at all. Otherwise it becomes a foolish childish game.

Poppy

January 19, 2015

I know someone who suffers from agoraphobia (she is too fearful to leave her house). Her daughters tell her she needs to take steps to be able to overcome her fear, for example walking to her letterbox. She makes every excuse to avoid confronting her fear. She would say that her daughters advice is not useful, but it is only because she doesn't want to make changes. She likes to complain about life passing her by, but is not prepared to do anything to change it.

January 19, 2015

I know someone who suffers from agoraphobia (she is too fearful to leave her house). Her daughters tell her she needs to take steps to be able to overcome her fear, for example walking to her letterbox. She makes every excuse to avoid confronting her fear. She would say that her daughters advice is not useful, but it is only because she doesn't want to make changes. She likes to complain about life passing her by, but is not prepared to do anything to change it.

That's a really good example that partially supports the OP's point. The reason saying 'just get out' to an agoraphobic or an OW rarely works is because it's usually really just an expression of an end state that everyone probably supports, but the subject has no idea how to achieve it. Akin to telling someone suffering depression to just pull their socks up. It's never that simple.

While it's great to reiterate the desired end state so it stays in view, it is just as important to advocate methods to get there. Without the latter, the former is just a pipe dream.

For a true agoraphobic to make it even to the letter box, he or she needs first to learn the coping mechanisms to deal with the crippling anxiety that even that thought will induce. Then he or she needs to be able to enact them in a slow and steady progression. Then to continue to expose, cope and extend. This is actually a really great metaphor for what a codependant OW/M needs to do!

While there certainly are posters who provide really insightful advice for OW/M that includes strategies and enlightening points and questions (as opposed to just the good Ol' go NC now!) here on LS, I would like to see some more.

January 19, 2015

Often times affairs are compared to addictions and some of the methods used in AA Meetings have been applied to ending the affair addiction because they've been proven to work!

I believe that's why the NC rule is used often here. Because for some, their AP has indeed become an addiction that the only way to break free is to have zero contact with the source of their "drug." Same as alchohol or any chemical addiction.

January 19, 2015

SolG, that's really what I'm trying to say. Thank you. I'm not trying to tell people what to post, just trying to make a point about how often I see these comments and for the OW to be aware of it because it can cause a lot of desperate and conflicting feelings.

Yes, I agree that there are times when some people don't deserve a goodbye conversation but, most of the time, that's not the case. It's simply not realistic to cut people off without even one last conversation. But I see this advice so often that it baffles me. I wonder how many people would really just end a relationship without a word when the two of you talk numerous times a day and have sex.

January 19, 2015

This relationship needs two people to go on. The best situation would be the MM cutting her off - it has a reason why they prey on emotionally weak women 'cause they won't stop degrading themselves as affair partner for years, sometimes even decades.

January 19, 2015

Often times affairs are compared to addictions and some of the methods used in AA Meetings have been applied to ending the affair addiction because they've been proven to work!
I believe that's why the NC rule is used often here. Because for some, their AP has indeed become an addiction that the only way to break free is to have zero contact with the source of their "drug." Same as alchohol or any chemical addiction.

It's really no different than a spouse who's so addicted to their bad marriage that they refuse to let it go. But that's ok because they have a license to be addicted, right? In both cases - married or the OW/OM - they're addicted to love and the relationship. The affair just creates the judgement about the inability to let go. Whereas with a marriage, well, they're just holding on to their marriage so the addiction is much more understandable.

Edited January 19, 2015 by bathtub-row

January 19, 2015

I believe most of the times advice like that is given after numerous attempts to end the A, limit contact, etc. I think most people on here - even BS's - understand the rationale behind one last conversation with a relationship partner. What most are getting at, however, is finding the strength to make the hard decision at some point. It may come through as "block email" or "go NC". But the point is the same. That may seem unrealistic, but I think there are numerous occasions where something less is just coddling. You may find the story of the MM losing his best friend in a flood of tears sad. I find that a vast majority of the time THAT's what's unrealistic. Not the desire of the S to end the A or not take a phone call. It's just another means to eat cake or continue with the status quo.

January 19, 2015

And 'he is where he wants to be' Nope. Why would he have an affair for years then? As in my mm he was in complete turmoil That's another useless sentence. He is where two women allow him to be.

January 19, 2015

I think many of the OWs posting here for help are in toxic or one sided relationships that are unhealthy for the mental health of the OW.

I do not believe that as soon as an OW pops her head above the parapet, that she needs to go NC with her AP right away, that would be ridiculous as some have good relationships with their MM. As I do not walk in their shoes, then who am I to judge.

However for many of the sad, hurting OWs who come here for advice, then often NC is the best option.

Many of those particular OWs are essentially being used by the MM.

They are in push/pull relationships or in relationships with controlling/abusive/psychopathic men, or are being lied to frequently to keep them on side, but to their own detriment

Frequently the advise given re NC, is no different that that given to any women/man who is in a toxic situation.

January 19, 2015

It's really no different than a spouse who's so addicted to their bad marriage that they refuse to let it go. But that's ok because they have a license to be addicted, right? In both cases - married or the OW/OM - they're addicted to love and the relationship. The affair just creates the judgement about the inability to let go. Whereas with a marriage, well, they're just holding on to their marriage so the addiction is much more understandable.

Actually, yes. Because in a marriage you have 2 people who made vows to each other. In the eyes of the law the marriage is a different relationship. So comparing a legal and marital bond to a relationship that should have never begun is not really a fair comparison.

That said, I agree with you that drive by, robot, say-the-same-thing-every-time posters are not very helpful. I have seen this on lots of forums. Particular posters on various forums throughout the internet will say the same phrases or throw up the same quotes pretty much everywhere. It's like they just have a list of things they copy and paste everywhere. Not much thought or compassion.

January 19, 2015

Why so much animosity towards reconciling couples? Why compare the plight of the OW to that of the reconciling couple? This seems quite unhealthy and it underlies many of your posts-

As far as NC, I have seen it suggested to OW that are looking for a way to heal- and as much as you don't like it, it has been proven to work- NC has nothing to do with how the AP felt about the OW, nothing to do with whats going on with the APs marriage, it has everything to do with the OW and working towards healing-

For me, if my husband decided to end our marriage, I would only communicate about necessary things like bills and the kids- I would work my butt off to disengage from trying to talk with him about what went wrong, about how he is doing, about what he is doing-because no matter what, when something is over, for whatever reason-you have to make a clean break-

January 19, 2015

Why so much animosity towards reconciling couples? Why compare the plight of the OW to that of the reconciling couple? This seems quite unhealthy and it underlies many of your posts-

As far as NC, I have seen it suggested to OW that are looking for a way to heal- and as much as you don't like it, it has been proven to work- NC has nothing to do with how the AP felt about the OW, nothing to do with whats going on with the APs marriage, it has everything to do with the OW and working towards healing-

For me, if my husband decided to end our marriage, I would only communicate about necessary things like bills and the kids- I would work my butt off to disengage from trying to talk with him about what went wrong, about how he is doing, about what he is doing-because no matter what, when something is over, for whatever reason-you have to make a clean break-

I,individually, have no problem with couples trying to reconcile (though I have yet to see it truly work), but I think those that post in the OM/OW forum are angry, and do not help the issue at hand.

January 19, 2015

It's really no different than a spouse who's so addicted to their bad marriage that they refuse to let it go. But that's ok because they have a license to be addicted, right? In both cases - married or the OW/OM - they're addicted to love and the relationship. The affair just creates the judgement about the inability to let go. Whereas with a marriage, well, they're just holding on to their marriage so the addiction is much more understandable.

I actually haven't seen any posters advising someone to stay addicted to a bad spouse or stay in a bad marriage. Have you read the marriage and infidelity boards? Often there are posters on those boards who are absolutely relentless in their belief that a marriage must end immediately. Obviously no contact is not an option for someone just initiating the ending of a marriage. Spouses usually share children, property and sometimes businesses so it would be silly to tell someone who is just contemplating the end of their marriage to immediately go no contact with their spouse. However once one of the spouses moves out I have seen many posters recommend limited contact.

I'm not sure where you're seeing posters telling other posters it's okay to hold onto a bad marriage or a bad spouse.

January 19, 2015

Also wanted to add that I actually do not tell posters they must go no contact right away at any and all cost.

While I agree with the premise of no contact and can clearly see why that would be the best option I think to advise immediate and total no contact really depends on the poster and the situation because it really is unlikely that someone who is hopelessly in love with their MM is going to follow that advice. However if someone is posting that they are miserable and they do want out of the affair then sometimes no contact is the only way to go. While the poster may not take that advice immediately on board, if they stick around long enough they might begin to see why going no contact will aid them in getting free.

January 19, 2015

The OW who come here are generally hurting and looking for a way out of whatever pain they're in. Though you've taken issue with the things you listed, I can think of no better way to achieve such a goal. When a woman comes here and says she's hurting, getting drunk every night, crying for hours on end and chain smoking her lungs out, etc, how can anyone logically advise them to stick around for that crap? I mean really, what should we say, "Oh sweetie, sorry you're hurting but the good news is, MM totally loves you so just stay with him forever!"

That's...I can't even..it's just ridiculous. Contrary to a somewhat popular belief in certain circles, affairs are not, in fact, magical, mystical entities that exist in bubbles and should be held to completely different standards than any other relationship. If someone comes here and decries they are desperately unhappy in their relationship, are being treated badly by their partner and need help, the advice generally remains the same, single, married or in an affair - "GET OUT NOW!" Frankly I see no reason why OW should not be advised to do the same.

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how much MM might love the OW or genuinely want to be out of his marriage or what have you, if he's not making moves to leave and OW isn't okay with that, she shouldn't hang around or be told to do so. A lot of OW who come here need clear, concise directions and a push to make bold moves (like going NC or telling the wife) or else they're liable to stay OW forever. Some people will relapse if just told to simply wean themselves off their addictions. So yes, sometimes "cold turkey" is the best method. It's that simple.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Lernaean_Hydra

January 19, 2015

I will never, ever forget a post by a woman on another site about infidelity who talked about when she found out about her husband's affair and told him that, if they were going to stay together, he could never contact the OW again. She said that he cried his heart out and through his tears, begged her, "Please don't take away my best friend!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could NEVER EVER stay with a man who said this to me. I would be selling myself way short. I wonder how he would have felt if his wife was getting laid by an OM, but wanted to keep him as her 'best friend'.

Pure selfishness.

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For the sake of the OW, I'd LOVE to stop hearing this...

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