LucreziaBorgia Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 Your wife let go of her affair status, and is ready to move past this. If you can't let go of your victim status, and move past this then there is no point in staying married. It sounds like if you do under the circumstances, the affair will never be a part of your past - it will always be a hellish and painful part of your present, right on into the future. That is no way to live. I hope that the 'no contact' period will give you some clarity that you need in this difficult situation.
reservoirdog1 Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 Your wife let go of her affair status, and is ready to move past this. If you can't let go of your victim status, and move past this then there is no point in staying married. It sounds like if you do under the circumstances, the affair will never be a part of your past - it will always be a hellish and painful part of your present, right on into the future. That is no way to live. Absolutely, all good advice. But for god's sake... it's been three months. That's f*ck all. Yes, he does have to let go of his "victim status" -- in time. For now, however, he needs -- and deserves -- total honesty, and all the answers he wants. It's great that she wants to sweep everything under the carpet; why wouldn't she? She got to have her fun and now wants to consign it to history. For him, this is all brand new -- he's just learned that the person he thought he was married to was largely a fraud. He's got a lot to process, and if she's interested in the marriage, she has to take the driver's seat and work with him to get past it. To do otherwise, just because she's being too selfish to help him heal... THAT is no way to live.
dsancious Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 STILL HURTING I have to admit that your comments hit very close to home. She feels likes I am trying to punish her whenever I ask her questions because when I actually get an answer, I get mad or discredit her answer. Why would she want to answer my questions honestly (if at all) if all I do is discredit her or bash her answers? Thanks for pointing out the obvious to an obviously disjointed and confused person like myself. It's like my wife says, our marriage is good except when I get on my "questions" kick.
reservoirdog1 Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 Consider trying something like this. Set aside an hour every few days, or something like that, in which you have total freedom to ask whatever you must ask, and she must answer honestly. The flip side is that, at all other times, you must not ask those questions or bring up her cheating. This could help give you the answers you need and insulate her from constantly feeling "under attack". Doing that will take dedication and commitment from both of you. Give it a try.
dsancious Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 resdog, I have suggested that to her and she hasn't been too open to that suggestion. I think that it's a good idea and will continue to gently bring it back up for consideration.
moimeme Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 For now, however, he needs -- and deserves -- total honesty, and all the answers he wants No, actually, not only does he not, but it will only cause him damage in the long run. You don't need every detail, because that gives you a script to use to construct the elabourate mental images of them together which you will use to continue to torture yourself and to punish her. In fact, the very last thing you need is to know anything more. The more you feed the monster, the bigger it will grow. In fact, what you need to do is to sweep it under the carpet, put it away, and both of you forget about it. Remember, every time you make her remember, you may also be rekindling the feelings she had at the time and if you get mad at her and mistreat her over them, you will make her wish she was still with him. What you want is for her not to think about him anymore and the way you do that is by never mentioning him and occupying her with your new attempt at a relationship.
reservoirdog1 Posted May 22, 2005 Posted May 22, 2005 True, he doesn't need every detail. But that's a decision for him to make, not her. He knows which details he wants, just like I did. Some -- a lot of them, in fact -- I didn't ask for because I knew they'd hurt more than help. Refusal by her to answer his questions hurts reconciliation just as much because it's an in-your-face demonstration of the fact that she's still hiding things from him. And it's that hiding of things by her that put them in the s***hole they're in now. Besides, keep in mind that the truth is rarely worse than what your mind can conjure up.
Owl Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 In fact, what you need to do is to sweep it under the carpet, put it away, and both of you forget about it. Remember, every time you make her remember, you may also be rekindling the feelings she had at the time and if you get mad at her and mistreat her over them, you will make her wish she was still with him. Sorry my friend, but I totally disagree. Sweeping it under the rug, acting like nothing was wrong, trying to pretend that nothing happened is what he's trying to deal with in the first place. The biggest pain from infidelity doesn't come from the act, it comes from the deception, from the destroyed trust. The only way a marriage can recover is for that trust to be rebuilt over time. It takes work. And it starts with the WS (wayward spouse) admitting to EVERYTHING in the affair, and taking responsibility for it. Then, they both have to decide on what steps they can agree on for the WS to demonstrate trustworthiness going forward. And the BS is going to have to see changes in the WS's behavior and attitude to demonstrate that they've made whatever changes needed to happen to ensure that another affair (or the one that they were in) won't start again. Knowing ALL of the details isn't wise though either. "Be careful what you ask for...". What you REALLY need to do is to sit and think about the answers you NEED to have...not the ones you WANT. Ask those questions, and be ready to listen to the answers without judgement. If you can't, you'd better try to do it in the MC's office. Part of the changes that need to happen is that the BS (betrayed spouse) needs to create an environement where the WS feels like they CAN be honest...if that doesn't happen, you'll NEVER hear the whole story. Think about it...take a look at the marriagebuilders website too. And maybe you should look at getting a different MC?
moimeme Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 admitting to EVERYTHING in the affair, and taking responsibility for it Fine, but that doesn't mean details. How does knowing when he put his hand on her butt help? How will knowing what they did and said together help? I agree the spouse has to build trust, but that's done by being open and transparent about her current activities, IMHO, not by 'fessing up to all the details of the fling.
I Survived Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Reading through the most recent postings on this thread helped me remember something that my husband and I did. About 50% of the preliminary "work" my husband and I did when I first discovered his infidelity was done by writing emails to each other. He was at work and I'd send him an email saying "I have a question". He'd respond by saying "ask away" and I'd write back my questions. In the very beginning, I sent him a list of about 20 questions and even though he was reluctant to answer them, he did. It gave me time to read his answers and at the same time, helped him think about the pain and hurt he caused me. We were both much braver to ask and answer the questions and it also helped us start other conversations on the phone or in person. If you and your wife have the ability to do that, I think it would be great. It gives you more time to think about the questions, gives her more time to think about her answers and neither one of you will see that initial facial expression that most often leads to other complications. After you plow through the crap that will allow you to engage in honest, open conversations about your feelings and relationship. I hope you and your wife have separate email accounts that will allow you to do this. Even if it's at home, same computer. Just give yourselves the time to be alone when you write/read them. Let me know how it works if you do it.
Owl Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 Originally posted by moimeme Fine, but that doesn't mean details. How does knowing when he put his hand on her butt help? How will knowing what they did and said together help? I agree the spouse has to build trust, but that's done by being open and transparent about her current activities, IMHO, not by 'fessing up to all the details of the fling. It helps by showing her WILLINGNESS to be honest and open and truthful now. It was the fact that she hid this information in the FIRST place that he's dealing with. And notice that I feel he needs to ask questions that matter...not just anything that pops into his head. And the spouse starts building that trust by demonstrating the willingness to 'come clean' about the affair, and demonstrating changed behavior after the truth is known. In my case, my wife had a 'EA only'. So I didn't have to deal with the physical details (beyond knowing that she was fantasizing about him when WE were together, etc...). But I STILL had the need to know how it started, who did what first, etc... That is NORMAL, and it's important that he feels like he's going to hear the truth from now on in order for him to begin healing.
dsancious Posted May 23, 2005 Posted May 23, 2005 My wife has agreed to set aside about 20-30 minutes a week for me to ask any questions that I may have. And I have agreed not to respond in a negative way or to degrade or bash her verbally for telling me the truth, however much it may hurt. I pretty much have decided that I don't want to know any sexual details. Besides, she had already told me soon after I found out about the affair that "we didn't do anything that we hadn't done before." In return, I have agreed not to ask any questions except during this set-aside time or possibly in couseling, if needed. I want to get past this anger/depression roller coaster and work on recovery. If we didn't love each other, I believe that we would be wasting our time in couseling and by staying in the marriage. We have also called off our 2 week seperation in June because how can you work on recovery when you're not even together? Thanks for all the great replies and suggestions.
dsancious Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 Well, so much for the agreement that my wife and I had on her answering any questions that I had about the affair one day a week for 15-30 minutes. She has reneged on this agreement saying she doesn't see what good it will do and that she's already answered all my questions. She says that she is willing to do anything to recover but her actions are starting to belie her words. I am telling her what I need to recover from her affair and she is not willing to help me out. She continues to want to "sweep it under the rug" and doesn't believe that talking about the affair will help us recover. I'm sure it will help HER recover, but there is no doubt in MY mind that this continued attitude is just going to lead to more and more resentment on my part and the marriage won't stand a chance. I have asked her to read books/article/postings on this site but she is not interested in doing so. It doesn't sound like she truly is willing to do anything to save our marriage. I am going to sit down tonight and write her a letter letting her know exactly what I need from her to help me get over her affair. I do not think that I am asking too much from her. I just think that a WILLINGNESS on her part to answer my questions would go a long way in helping me recover and regain her trust. We continue to go to counseling but I may cease going if the counselor doesn't agree that I deserve more than just basic answers or the "I don't know" or "I can't remember" bull---! I am about ready to say "F--k it" and ask for a separation/divorce. I am willing to go to counseling and work on our marriage for 9-12 months but I am starting to believe that I am wasting my time and money. When do you say "enough is enough?" Whe
fleafly Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 I am going through the same thing as you, and I dont believe there is a true answer for this. I will ask you a question, even though I already know the answer, what do the details matter?!? What is done is done, and nothing will EVER change that. I know that doesnt really help does it? Ive tried to convince myself of this a million times, Ive thought all day long about how many good time Ive had with my wife, how it would be such a waste to just throw it all away, and how I just want to drive "home" and tell her how much I love her. These feeling vanish as soon as I pull in the drive way. The truth of the matter is your wife/my wife dont UNDERSTAND what it is like to go through something like this, to have the person you loved the most so callously disreghard everything that has been shared for something so shortsighted. I guess the only advice I can give is, try and find it within yourself to let go, although I think some men can do this easier then others? From my own experience, you could be in counseling for the rest of your life, but if you cant let go of the anger and forgive, all is lost-- Ive tried everything, any other suggestions besides a gun in the mouth would be greatly appreciated. Flea
whichwayisup Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 Hey Flea, long time no see/post on LS. I take it things are not moving along any better than before. Is she still seeing him or is it over? Sooner or later she has to decide what she wants - as do you. Hope you're hanging in okay though.
Soul Searching JJ Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 I too want details... Although I'm not sure why I want to hurt myself with them. They are actually extra marital details not done during my current marriage but that my hubby cheated on his past wife. They hurt because I did not know of his infidelity to his past wife until after we were married and with every detail, I loose more and more respect for him... almost like I'm learning about who he really is and it hurts and is scary...
Owl Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 I think that part of the problem is that you are ASKING your wife to give you this information. In truth, I think that you should consider letting her know that this is a condition of continuing your marriage. If she isn't willing to do what it takes to help you recover, then she may need to face the consequences of that action. Tell her point blank: If you want to continue to be married to me, then I'm going to require the following: 1. Marriage and individual counseling for both of us. - We need to understand WHY this happened, and how we can prevent it from happening again. 2. Full disclosure, and full openess NOW. - You need to know the answers to your questions. She can no longer hide details, etc... In addition, she needs to SHOW you that she's made the changes you both need by providing you open access to EVERYTHING...cell phone, emails, IMs, etc... 3. She needs to accept responsibility for her actions. - She has to recognize and demonstrate to you that she is truly sorry for what has happened, and that she's willing to 'make it up' to you. That doesn't mean kissing your behind...it DOES mean that she needs to help you to heal from what she did to you and your marriage. If she says no, then let her know that you're not going to be able to remain with her if she's not willing to do what's needed to recover your marriage.
Soul Searching JJ Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 Great advice from Owl. I think in part we all may want to know every detail because in short, we were left out. Being in the dark can be scary because we realize we lost control of our relationship. Truly our imaginations can be worse than what actually happened. Seeking the details is a way to try and make sense of the amosity and come to terms with whether or not you can make it past them. You must set boundaries for yourself in the questions you ask. It is VERY true that if you ask detailed information about the reaction of the other person during this or that or, what did he/she do, say... it will eat you alive always. I know the thought of my H cheating makes me sick and would make me feel like the fool. I would never make it past the small details.
blind_otter Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 I going to go against the grain and disagree with OWL. I have been in therapy for rape trauma syndrome and PTSD for 7 years now. You know what? The details AREN'T important and you need to suppress this compulsion to torture yourself. It's a common reaction to someone who has suffered hurts, but re-living the experience simply re-opens the wound. It's like picking at a scab. You keep picking, it may very well heal, and it will leave a big, nasty, ugly scar on your marriage. I don't ever go over the details of my trauma, but the inadequate coping skills I developed and would like to change, as a result. You can either forgive the infidelity, or you can't. Knowing the details can't really change the essential attitude you have towards it and IMO only serves some bizarre masochistic purpose. In my last relationship I was cheated on 8 times. I have come to accept that it is in the nature of many if not all people to cheat. I simply expect it and accept it, now.
SexKitten Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 i think you will needelessly obsess over the details for your whole life if you stay with her. do yourselves both a favour and set each other free. you want to torment yourself with the details, and use it against her to place blame and lay guilt. she wants to stop reliving it--she knows it was a nearly unforgivable mistake and it probably makes her sick to think about it now and she does want to forget and move on--but you won't let her.
Owl Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 Again, I don't suggest that you ask for all the DETAILS....what I've said repeatedly is to ask the questions that are RELEVANT. Knowing dates and times and specific events that happened are one thing...asking about specific sexual acts, physical attributes, etc...none of that has anything to do with getting past what happened. So I'm NOT suggesting that the BS needs to know (or ask) for THAT kind of information. And like I've said, it's not the information that you need to heal. It's really the willingness of the person who had the affair to GIVE you that information. To show that they're being honest NOW at least. To show that they're willing to help YOU get over what happened, even if its not comfortable or easy for them to do. It shows that THEY are willing to take responsibility and willing to WORK on fixing their part in the marriage. I can appreciate where you're coming from, B_O. And while there are LOT of similarities in the trauma you experience from infidelity and the trauma from a rape, there are some major differences in the two as well. A rape victim has to work to get past the event, to let it go. Unless the perp was a family member or friend, contact between the victim and the perp ends there. And it's important for the victim to let the memories fade into nothing. But with infidelity, the CAUSE of the event has to be fixed, or it will NEVER be recovered from. There is no cause with rape. And the secrecy issue is a major factor (even cause) of the event. And that SECRECY, DECEPTION, LYING, etc...that is a major CAUSE of the trauma to the betrayed spouse. That trauma is different from rape. And the way to heal from it is different as well. Perhaps that might make my advice a little more understandable?
blind_otter Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 Ok. I was wondering if you meant, how many times did you f*ck, where, when, whose name did you call out - that sort of thing. Because I've asked them myself. But I also think having a mediator may be good because otherwise you can get carried away. And demand those details, which are nothing more than a way to make your spouse feel defensive.
Owl Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 I TOTALLY agree that a mediator would be a HUGE help in this. That is a major value of marriage counseling, if you get the right counselor.
reservoirdog1 Posted May 25, 2005 Posted May 25, 2005 And like I've said, it's not the information that you need to heal. It's really the willingness of the person who had the affair to GIVE you that information. To show that they're being honest NOW at least. Exactly... couldn't have said it better myself. By being willing to answer the questions, the former cheater demonstrates that they've changed. They demonstrate that the dishonesty and lack of respect they demonstrated are being replaced with honesty and respect. And demonstrations of change are exactly what the betrayed needs. Lack of willingness to answer certain questions leads the betrayed to conclude, understandably, that the cheater is still hiding something.
dsancious Posted May 28, 2005 Posted May 28, 2005 Well, my wife went to Ind. counseling last night as I had a previous engagement. My wife had asked me to write down any questions I had about the affair and I did. Mind you, these were not of an intimate, sexual nature but just general questions about the affair. She refused to write down answers to any of the questions. Some examples "Did you have a 'relationship' with her ex BEFORE we got married?" "When was the first time and the last time?" (she says she can't remember dates and has been trying to forget about the affair." "Why did you call your ex on our wedding day?" Again, I got a "I don't know" response. I asked her about specific nignts when she stayed at her Mom's and had phone contact with her ex during these nights. I asked her if she had been with him during any of those times. Again, she refuses to answer the questions. She took the questions to counseling last night and let the counselor read them. The counselor called the questions "emotional abuse" on my part. Tonight, my wife complained that I will never stop asking questions and that I will just find/dig up new ones. I told her that I may from time to time have a question come to me that I hadn't thought of before and may want to know the answer. My wife told me that if she answers my questions honestly then there will be more questions generated from her answers. This makes me believe that she is definitely witholding info. for fear of the truth and extent of her affair coming to light. I told her that I am not going back to our present counselor. She has just left to spend the next three days at her Mom's. There will be no contact between us. We are also planning a week-long seperation in 2-3 weeks with no contact. I don't know if we can wait 2-3 more weeks but job-wise she is unable to leave right now. I think that we are both about ready to throw in the towel. Counseling has only made things worse and there is no passion/intimacy between us anymore. I am truly starting to believe that this marriage is not going to survive and I need to just move on with my life. This belief becomes stronger everyday that passes. I also believe that many of my emotional and physical problems (that have started since I married her) may be relieved by her leaving. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
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