Author Amilcar Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 Some of these responses are a bit insane. The suggestions that my posts are emblematic of misogyny really smack of self-righteous myopia conditioned by posters' own traumas rather than anything I actually said. I never said she "owed"me anything. I decided to share this situation with a bunch of strangers because I am genuinely confused. Some of the confusion is, no doubt, tied to my own mediocre ability at reading behavioral signs. But I feel like she has contributed to this in her own way by saying things (again, unsolicited) like "I like you very much. I could see us together long term." She's said that a few times now. Then, when I bring up the exclusivity talk it turns into a very indeterminate "We'll see." Vague discussions about eventual exclusivity are not cutting it for me, and I imagine they wouldn't for many of the posters keen to point to my "sense of entitlement." She has sent mixed signals and I do want to clear things up. As for the contention that my push for exclusivity is coming from a profoundly narcissistic place I would probably say no more than it does for anyone else. If we're going to have a debate about the psychological underpinnings of romantic relationships, anyone who enters into one of these looking for certain "needs" to be met (emotional, sexual), as we all do, is certainly operating from an at least partially narcissistic position. The fact is, we are not two people in love. The one time I was truly in love I did feel like I could sacrifice what I wanted for her on a consistent basis. And for at least some of that stretch, I saw her doing the same for me. But love is built over time and if the current person has "commitment issues" we couldn't possibly ever get to that stage and that's something I need to know. I'm not ready to just disappear entirely, I think that would be the behavior of a petulant child. I do think that a frank conversation about how I feel and why I'm no longer happy with the arrangement is my only option. If she decides to break things off it'll hurt but probably not as much as remaining silent. 2
acrosstheuniverse Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 As for the contention that my push for exclusivity is coming from a profoundly narcissistic place I would probably say no more than it does for anyone else. Although I've read the thread, I didn't see that post in particular... but that is a bizarre outlook indeed. Seems you can't win on this board sometimes... if you push for exclusivity, you're narcissistic, insecure, moving too fast... if you don't, and let it just amble on, you get chastised for not discussing exclusivity, not drawing the boundaries, not being brave enough to assert what you want in a relationship, and therefore it's your own fault for getting hurt because a) you weren't exclusive so you have no reason to be upset they're sleeping with others and b) you kept dating them anyway. Screw that, if you want an exclusive relationship (and most people do), it's absolutely the right thing to do to assert that it's what you're looking for, and gauge whether or not your dating partner is the person who can give it to you. In my mind it would be the more ridiculous thing to keep dating someone for more than a few weeks without discussing whether you are seeing others or not. It's a waste of time, one party can end up developing feelings while the other is just seeing it as a way to pass the time. Talk to her again and see what she wants. All it takes is 'so I brought up being exclusive a couple of weeks ago, and you didn't want to date me exclusively at the time. I'm looking for an exclusive relationship, and I'm not sure if you're the person who I'm going to have that with, because I already know that I'd like to date you properly and you're still not sure. What are your feelings on the matter? and then listen. If she keeps up with the 'I'm enjoying where it's going right now and don't want to rush', well I would take that as your goodbye, because after a couple months if she was into you enough she'd be delighted to agree to exclusivity and keep seeing each other.
callingyouuu Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 It's perfectly fine if the girl doesn't feel comfortable with being intimate after however many dates. In the meantime, I'd just hope to see signs that she's interested in going somewhere with our relationship. Her being vague about exclusivity after 6 dates would make me unsure as to whether she's taking it slow or that she just isn't interested in us going anywhere. I do think that a frank conversation about how I feel and why I'm no longer happy with the arrangement is my only option. If she decides to break things off it'll hurt but probably not as much as remaining silent. I agree with this plan.
Ninjainpajamas Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 The reality is that she could be having sex with her FWB just fine, while dating 4 other guys and just dating you because she doesn't particularly feel all that interested in you so she's giving it "time" to see if she can convince herself to give you a chance since you seem to be the nicest, most respectable guy who's sticking around as guy number 2 and 3 that she really had the hots for have fallen off the radar mysteriously...and maybe she'll just turn that corner and some light will flicker with you. Or just out of a LTR and is just back onto the scene, appreciates the time and attention but doesn't really want to open herself emotionally or sexually... Or...the typical heart-broken story of getting back out in the dating world and you're just one of the guinea pigs she doesn't really feel really into but doesn't know what to expect and the pace seems too fast no matter what the pace is. But why is it always assumed the woman is the victim? for all you know she could be playing games or worried about her own needs...but the one thing that's clear is she isn't into the guy. I don't know what you're doing with her or what your communication is about Amilcar but this situation sounds like it really isn't going anywhere, I mean what have you been talking about? are you just hanging out like a bunch of robots doing the normal superficial crap and then seeing where it goes? Whatever you're doing when you're with her doesn't seem to be working, I would cut your losses before you waste your time...this definitely doesn't sound like a "love connection" unless you can really justify or establish some pivotal moments or other romantic connections you are having that wouldn't just lead me to believe she's just kind of stringing you along...because I very highly doubt she's got it for you, this is just not a situation you would find yourself in if she was interested in you, she would be asking you the questions if she was. I don't suspect it has anything to do with making you wait, that doesn't even add up at this point in time...she seems romantically disinterested.
Author Amilcar Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 To the last commenter, I do feel delusional at times. You're right, I have received ample indication that her interest is not all the strong. But I've also received considerable signs that it might be. Beyond the vague comments about envisioning us together, I have not imagined the affection. When we're together she is extremely affectionate, tons of kissing and caressing. The last time we hung out she came over and cooked for me, something I didn't ask for. I mean all of this could mean absolutely nothing, but I'm not so sure either way. She talks a lot about the past, guys who betrayed her or mistreated her. I've certainly been through it all as well, but my past doesn't weigh on me to the degree that it seems to weigh on her. At the heart of this issue is the fact that I really enjoy the time we spend together and can't wait to see her again after we part company. She stimulates me intellectually and physically (albeit without sex) and I feel a special connection. It's not easy to throw that away, especially when I could interpret her trepidation as less a reflection of her feelings for me than an ongoing struggle with previous experiences. I think it's a mistake to think that all women (or people in general) would jump into bed with someone they're strongly attracted to on a physical level. I've been cheated on before, and it made being sexual a real challenge for some time. But her last LTR ended about a year ago. How do you progress with someone for whom the past is still such a strong determinant of the present?
Awon Apanilerin Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 To the last commenter, I do feel delusional at times. You're right, I have received ample indication that her interest is not all the strong. But I've also received considerable signs that it might be. Beyond the vague comments about envisioning us together, I have not imagined the affection. When we're together she is extremely affectionate, tons of kissing and caressing. The last time we hung out she came over and cooked for me, something I didn't ask for. I mean all of this could mean absolutely nothing, but I'm not so sure either way. She talks a lot about the past, guys who betrayed her or mistreated her. I've certainly been through it all as well, but my past doesn't weigh on me to the degree that it seems to weigh on her. At the heart of this issue is the fact that I really enjoy the time we spend together and can't wait to see her again after we part company. She stimulates me intellectually and physically (albeit without sex) and I feel a special connection. It's not easy to throw that away, especially when I could interpret her trepidation as less a reflection of her feelings for me than an ongoing struggle with previous experiences. I think it's a mistake to think that all women (or people in general) would jump into bed with someone they're strongly attracted to on a physical level. I've been cheated on before, and it made being sexual a real challenge for some time. But her last LTR ended about a year ago. How do you progress with someone for whom the past is still such a strong determinant of the present? An interested woman will never confuse you. What you just posted is a classic sign of a confused man trying to rationalize the woman's behavior. No amount of rationalization will hide the truth. It's up to you to decide. If what you really want is to be with a woman who will tease you and withdraw at the last moment, a woman that will leave you in a confused state as to where you stand with her relationship wise, a woman that gets all the satisfaction she needs emotionally while leaving your own physical needs untouched then go ahead and continue dating her.
acrosstheuniverse Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I hate to break it to you, but being affectionate with someone isn't an indicator of relationship-strength affection... there have been guys that I've dated with whom I've been very affectionate, kissing, snuggling, touch, and I've cooked for them, but deep down there hasn't been that fire that's made me want to lock them down just for me, or made me willing to take myself off the market for someone else who might just stimulate me that extra bit more. Generally with dating I tend to go by... if there are all 'good' signs, great. If there are all 'bad' signs, that sucks but their interest is clear. But if there are a mix of both, take the 'bad' signs. Because if it was truly going to work and go somewhere, those bad signs wouldn't be there at all. If she's still hurting from her past, there's nothing you can do to help her get past that. And she must still be hurting or she wouldn't be telling a new date about guys from her past that have hurt her, she'd be wanting to make a good impression! When I've had relationships before, they've all started with a bang... attraction, a desire to be exclusive even if it's very quick, excitement to be around each other, so into each other that dating other people would be a poor way to pass the time in comparison and so you focus your time and energy on this amazing new person who has luckily walked into your life. If someone is interested, you'll know. You won't have to question it.
Redhead14 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I've been seeing this girl since mid November. We both have very busy schedules but have still managed to go on about 8 dates. That's not an incredibly high number, I know, but we've certainly learned a great deal about one another. There seems to be mutual physical attraction, she does a lot of kissing, touching, hand-holding etc. But there seems to be a real aversion to sex on her part. She's been over to my place at this point, and we start to make out, things progress, and all of a sudden she's able to just pull away as easy as one would flick off a light switch. This must be an almost absurdly cliche, to the point of self-parody, but what is the waiting game really all about? I would love to get some women to weigh in on this. I have come up with a few possibilities. The first, she's not all that attracted to me and her hesitation at this point is indicative of this lukewarm attraction. I hope this isn't the case, but am acutely aware that it could be. The second possibility is that she's making me "earn it" which I've always found bizarre and almost insulting. I'm not the guy who pushes sex, much less requests it, so whenever I'm told (unsolicited) that I'm going to have to work to have the honor of intercourse I wince. There have been plenty of times that I wasn't sure I wanted to have sex with someone off the bat. I think it's immature to frame it in this manner--it should be an experience that two mutually attracted and respectful individuals share, not a point-based reward system. The third possibility is that bad experiences in her past have convinced her that this is the best way to proceed when looking for a long-term, monogamous relationship. I haven't been on a date with anyone since we started talking, but I can tell you that the sexlessness of this "thing" we're in is pushing me away. As an irreligious 27 year old living in a large urban center, I have never placed priority on "waiting" and she knows all of this about me. Nothing she has ever told me beyond a vague desire to "take it slow" would suggest that this is coming from a profound moral conviction. It feels like a game at this point. I really like her but I'm thinking of just having an honest conversation with her about the importance I place on sex in the context of a relationship (if we are to have one) and my confusion about where all of this is going. Is there a way to do this and not come off as a totally reprehensible dog? And, again, what is this waiting game really all about? Communication is the key. There is nothing wrong with being upfront about what it is you want and need for a relationship and making sure the other person is on the same page. I do not advocate having sex early in a dating scenario, however, if both parties agree to the "terms", go ahead. I would simply open a casual, non-specific, non-confrontational conversation with her about what your needs and wants are for a relationship in general. Don't say it's about her specifically, just overall goals and the elements that are most important to you and let her speak about what her goals, wants, needs are. You are kind of in a little bit of a bad spot, though, because you place emphasis and are making sexual compatibility a big part of your goals. You need to be delicate about that with her for sure. You run the risk of making her think all you want is sex, when in fact, you just want to know whether you "click" in that area. It's fine line to walk with woman. I would venture to guess that she is looking for some kind of declaration of exclusivity from you before she has sex with you. My "definition" of exclusivity is about sex. In other words, when a couple declares exclusivity, it means they are agreeing not to have sex with anyone else after they've had sex with each other unless and until they decide to have sex with someone else. They can date others, but not become sexual. Nor should they do that for an extended period of time. And, when/if they or you do, you both need to agree to be honest and upfront and realize that if either of you has sex with someone else, it's likely that you aren't as into one another as you had first thought. You need to be clear about what exclusivity means to you and her. She may feel that exclusivity is a declaration of commitment as in boyfriend/girlfriend. So just make sure you two want the same thing. If you are not prepared to declare her as your girlfriend and she wants that, I'd say you should move on. Please keep in mind too, that even if there is some incompatibility sexually, this is an area where communication is important as well. If there are things you like or want sexually with someone, you need to discuss them as well. She might agree to try new things with you and/or share her likes and needs. If you are being sexual with someone and feel like you can't have an honest, open discussion about it, then you probably shouldn't be sleeping with people or thinking about a relationship. I don't think people should discard potential dating partners for a relationship based on their performance in bed without talking about it. It's an important aspect in a relationship and if both are willing to work together, it can improve/change. Edited January 17, 2015 by Redhead14
guest569 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 An interested woman will never confuse you. What you just posted is a classic sign of a confused man trying to rationalize the woman's behavior. No amount of rationalization will hide the truth. It's up to you to decide. If what you really want is to be with a woman who will tease you and withdraw at the last moment, a woman that will leave you in a confused state as to where you stand with her relationship wise, a woman that gets all the satisfaction she needs emotionally while leaving your own physical needs untouched then go ahead and continue dating her. 8 whole dates..
Author Amilcar Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 Update: Texted her around noon to get confirmation of plans we made for tomorrow. No response after about 4 hours. I call her twice and again, nothing. This was the breaking point. I left her a message telling her I enjoyed our time together but I don't think I'd be seeing her again. The other day she had the nerve to tell me that I rarely pick up the phone when she calls (not at all true). Even if I don't get to the phone I call her back within an hour, almost without fail. She is REGULARLY inaccessible via text or phone call. I do think I was one of several options and probably on the low end of the list. It stings a bit, but it's a relief to not have to wait for a call back anymore or for someone to come around when things are not progressing naturally.
lil hoodlum Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Update: Texted her around noon to get confirmation of plans we made for tomorrow. No response after about 4 hours. I call her twice and again, nothing. This was the breaking point. I left her a message telling her I enjoyed our time together but I don't think I'd be seeing her again. The other day she had the nerve to tell me that I rarely pick up the phone when she calls (not at all true). Even if I don't get to the phone I call her back within an hour, almost without fail. She is REGULARLY inaccessible via text or phone call. I do think I was one of several options and probably on the low end of the list. It stings a bit, but it's a relief to not have to wait for a call back anymore or for someone to come around when things are not progressing naturally. Bummer! Sorry to hear that. At least you have diserned her true intentions. Sounds like she enjoyed your company as well. As others have stated if she was really into she would have been more responsive.
Ninjainpajamas Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Update: Texted her around noon to get confirmation of plans we made for tomorrow. No response after about 4 hours. I call her twice and again, nothing. This was the breaking point. I left her a message telling her I enjoyed our time together but I don't think I'd be seeing her again. The other day she had the nerve to tell me that I rarely pick up the phone when she calls (not at all true). Even if I don't get to the phone I call her back within an hour, almost without fail. She is REGULARLY inaccessible via text or phone call. I do think I was one of several options and probably on the low end of the list. It stings a bit, but it's a relief to not have to wait for a call back anymore or for someone to come around when things are not progressing naturally. She was just complaining and putting the critique on you, you can't fall for that. Don't be the nice guy that always falls on the back foot if a woman says something and get on the defensive and think it's something you are doing wrong...a lot of times women are just messing with your head, they like getting reactions out of men and manipulating them a bit. Plus women are moody and can change from second to second, minute to minute, day to day without a logical reason or explanation, they're more reactive than well though out rational thinkers to say the least. You've got to have your own thing and game plan going, you can't let her manipulate and control so much of the situation. Women will just use you as a potential side option because I can almost guarantee you that she's sleeping with someone else right now. And to really pour salt in the wound...when THAT GUY doesn't do something she likes, or plays around with her, she'll come on LS and cry about how men play games and how they never just are straight-forward and blah blah blah. And that's just the way it is. In fact, wouldn't be at all surprised if she didn't sleep with you because she was sleeping with someone else. She could have had some other guys man-chowder floating around in her vagina from the previous night that she didn't want to mix. Some women are able to sleep around with multiple guys at once, others feel a bit "icky" and just want to sleep with one guy but date like 4 others at the same time, but not take it all the way home. 1
Noproblem Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 The waiting game if it wasn't effective, you wouldn't be here complaining about it But seriously, she wouldn't have kissed you and come to your place if she wasn't attracted! 1
kaylan Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) 2 months? I would have bailed already. You have been on enough dates to know if the chemistry is there or not. Why waste more time? With the exception of one of my exes, I have never waited over a month to have sex with a woman. My ex and I waited because she was a virgin at the time, and even with her, we were doing everything else a few weeks into our dating. In my experience, if Im seeing a woman frequently and we are making out...neither of can stand it too long before we rip each other's clothes off. Im thinking this girl isnt really into you OP. Ive had women hang out with me, kiss me when we spend time together, and things not move forward physically...but when that happens we dont keep hanging out over a period of months. It usually becomes pretty clear how they feel about me or how I feel about them, and we part ways. And its not always the woman not being into it. Ive kissed women and then decided I couldn't see myself sleeping with them. Or I might have decided that before kissing them and tried to get into the moment anyway. Usually you know pretty quickly if youre attracted enough to someone to want to have sex. 2 months in and she doesnt want sex or exclusivity? NEXT! Edited January 18, 2015 by kaylan 1
guest569 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 She was just complaining and putting the critique on you, you can't fall for that. Don't be the nice guy that always falls on the back foot if a woman says something and get on the defensive and think it's something you are doing wrong...a lot of times women are just messing with your head, they like getting reactions out of men and manipulating them a bit. Plus women are moody and can change from second to second, minute to minute, day to day without a logical reason or explanation, they're more reactive than well though out rational thinkers to say the least. You've got to have your own thing and game plan going, you can't let her manipulate and control so much of the situation. Women will just use you as a potential side option because I can almost guarantee you that she's sleeping with someone else right now. And to really pour salt in the wound...when THAT GUY doesn't do something she likes, or plays around with her, she'll come on LS and cry about how men play games and how they never just are straight-forward and blah blah blah. And that's just the way it is. In fact, wouldn't be at all surprised if she didn't sleep with you because she was sleeping with someone else. She could have had some other guys man-chowder floating around in her vagina from the previous night that she didn't want to mix. Some women are able to sleep around with multiple guys at once, others feel a bit "icky" and just want to sleep with one guy but date like 4 others at the same time, but not take it all the way home. A tad bitter and sexist?
kaylan Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Update: Texted her around noon to get confirmation of plans we made for tomorrow. No response after about 4 hours. I call her twice and again, nothing. This was the breaking point. I left her a message telling her I enjoyed our time together but I don't think I'd be seeing her again. The other day she had the nerve to tell me that I rarely pick up the phone when she calls (not at all true). Even if I don't get to the phone I call her back within an hour, almost without fail. She is REGULARLY inaccessible via text or phone call. I do think I was one of several options and probably on the low end of the list. It stings a bit, but it's a relief to not have to wait for a call back anymore or for someone to come around when things are not progressing naturally. Rule of thumb for the future. Always mirror the communication pattern of someone youre dating. Dont be too available for someone who isnt available to you. If you encounter a woman like this in the future, keep your options open..the same way she is likely keeping her options open. This chick was simply butthurt that you decided to move on. Her ego is hurt that you pulled the plug before she did and that youre no longer interested. 3
kaylan Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 The waiting game if it wasn't effective, you wouldn't be here complaining about it But seriously, she wouldn't have kissed you and come to your place if she wasn't attracted! Ive known girls like her. Wishy washy, but dating around. Wishy washy with some guys...but having a main guy on call for when she needs her sexual itch scratched. Its not uncommon for both men and women to date around, kiss several people, but pump the breaks on moving forward with their options because they are sexually exclusive to someone else at the time. It happens, and I suspect that this is what was going on with the girl that OP was dating.
Ninjainpajamas Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 A tad bitter and sexist? Nothing to be bitter about, they're not my problems. And I'd call the same things out if a man is doing it...just because it's seen as a "negative", doesn't mean it's sexist. People are not just good.
WonderKid Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 I wouldn't have waited. Especially after that episode. I was in a scenario similar to the OP. She was a looker. A bit older than me. She came over to my place. And we were watching TV in the living room. But then we ended up in my room, at night. She started the kissing and dry-humping. And then stopped. I said hell no. I asked what she stop for. She gave a half-assed reply. I told her she could go sleep on the couch out in the living room. She thought I was kidding. I said, ain't no way I am going to have a girl march into my room, sleep on my bed half naked and not have sex. You came in here so you knew what that meant. She called a cab to go home. We ended up sleeping together eventually--it was more like a booty call thing. I did hear that she got around too. The thing is that she liked how I "treated" her. I was not like other guys. I canned that. I don't really mess with virgins because they covet that virginity too much. Women **** who they want to ****. They have the power to. 1
WonderKid Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Society women may say I am an average guy but I don't believe it. So there's no way I'm going to wait while she unwittingly drops her panties for some other golden guy. The reason I don't mess with virgins is because virginity is not special (but I'm a guy saying that). You could have sex, and nine times outta ten, that won't be the guy/girl you end up with for the rest of your life. I don't necessarily like thin chicks. I like average ones. I am still trying to deal with petites now. They are just so small. If she's a looker, and had an original personality about her (and I was serious about dating her) then I'd wait with no problem. But not as long as the chick in OP. Older women start to not car about what other women think of them that's why it is better. Younger women are too into public image: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Honestly, if I find out a girl has an Instagram I shy away. There's just something about them that is never right. Also it wouldn't hurt to experience a foreign woman too. One that is not Americanized but that's my opinion.
guest569 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Women **** who they want to ****. They have the power to. Exactly, and she clearly didnt want to **** you in that instance. No big deal.
thecrucible Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Well this is how guys' think then. I'm not someone who wants to put an arbitrary time on when to have sex. I just want it to feel like the right time, whether that's date one or 6 or whatever. If I know the guy wants a relationship, I don't usually wait more than 2 weeks though. There's a guy I'm insanely attracted to but we only see each other on nights out. Then we usually end up kissing a hell of a lot and he'll invite me back to his place. Although I'm really attracted to him, I'm holding back 'cause I'm not sure if he'll stick around and I kinda feel like I want to have more conversations and getting to know him (he doesn't have to be the love of my life, I just don't want a pump and dump scenario). This has been going on for two or three weeks now. He's probably frustrated and thinks I'm messing about and testing him (he says he thinks I am) but I can't explain it - as tempted though I am, I just don't want to risk getting hurt by getting into that. I have told him I like him and find him attractive...so don't really know what to do now :/. He sent me a text yesterday morning after the night before and I replied a few hours later, but now it's pretty much silence.
guest569 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Its interesting how a lot of men seem to think its all a game that women play, to deliberately annoy them, when in reality there are so many possible reasons. Talk about self absorbed. Virginity, fear, hurt in the past, lack of desire.. Just to name a few. 2
WonderKid Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 If she didn't want to have sex then she shouldn't have started things nor went into my bedroom. It's a territorial thing. I could've let her stay in my room half naked and we sleep together cuddling and I would've been put into a friendzone quickly.Fighting for points just to have sex with her.. She wasn't that beat up about it because when we stopped talking I already seen her with a different guy. If she had personal problems or needed some kind of recovery I don't mind for that. But we are adults. If I am a woman. I'm not going into a guy's room expecting to sleep in his bed and not have sex.
mysteryscape Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I remember a scientific study a number of years back -- wish I could find it -- that claimed that women feel comfortable, typically (half of all women) after knowing a guy for 6 mos. -- whereas for men the time is 1 week! I wonder if this is still true -- I doubt that human nature has changed that much even in 10 or 20 years -- but it seems to me women are willing to "put out" faster than they used to be. I remember the first time I did it I wanted to after a week for sure, she was much less willing. Finally we did it after 2 and half months or so -- I guess we kind of split the difference! -- she knew I was getting antsy and thinking of just moving on. Any thoughts on how long women and men would like to wait (ideally)?
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