SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Consider all the permutations of infidelity, all the stories that have ever been typed into LoveShack's database, all the books that have been written on coping. Don't we sound like those sports or news commentators that take something simple and create so much speculation, psychology, interdisciplinary pedantry and mythologizing? X and Y are together. X cheats on Y. X is now with Z. Y is alone and suffering. Y comes to LoveShack. LoveShack trips over itself consoling Y and convincing Y that they are right and X is wrong. So what? The story will happen all over again the next hour with another couple. It's not like humanity is working towards some better version of itself. This has been going on as long as humans have existed. So, is there a point to our moralizing? Isn't it a kind of self-delusion? In the end we all have to accept the natural order of things. 1
Ebelskiver Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Overall, less than half of relationships have infidelity in them. So, at least for half the folk out there it isn't an issue. What do you think of the idea of being "Monogomish" as described by Dan Savage? I'm paraphrasing, but essentially he states that longterm monogamy is difficult and that a mutually agreed upon amount of wandering in the relationship is actually healther in the long term. My current bf and I actually agree. The opportunity to hook up with someone based on pure animal magnetic attraction is fairly rare....and awesome! Just because we're in a relationship with each other doesn't mean we should miss out on those opportunities. So we have mutual blessing to follow through, as long as emotionally the other is still the priority. We're not swingers, we mostly sleep exclusively with each other but occasionally we're 'monogomish'. It helps that neither of us is particularly jealous. 3
Lernaean_Hydra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Well by your logic, we could look at the very basics of just about anything human beings encounter and say "the story will happen all over again" and dismiss it just as easily but rarely is anything as simple as looking at the basics; it's not that simple. What, exactly is it you're arguing is the natural order of things, anyway? Because if it's infidelity I can't say I agree and judging by the shock and dismay with which many of those betrayed react to it, I'd wager many feel the same as I do. And yet, at the same time, anyone who's spent any amount of time here will quickly realize that not everyone views cheating the same way. Yet still, not everyone cheats, so how natural can you really say infidelity is? As far as the point to all our discussion and moralizing surrounding it, well, this is a support site first and foremost. If everyone here suddenly took on the attitude of "eh well it happens" there'd be no point to it and those in need of support would go elsewhere. 1
CALOVELY Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Death has been going on since as long as humanity has existed as well so should that mean we tell the bereaved it is the natural order of things and buzz off? Infidelity hurts people in unimaginable ways and many are often blindsided by it. People try and make sense out of the senseless and come to places like Loveshack for comfort, answers and support. It might be one of hundreds of posts you have read about infidelity here but to them, this is the only one. 5
PegNosePete Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 So, is there a point to our moralizing? Isn't it a kind of self-delusion? What? We are helping people cope, make decisions, and improve their quality of life. Not trying to "cure" infidelity. If you think that's not a worthwhile goal then you're under no obligation to carry on reading/posting. 4
dichotomy Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The desire to kick **** out someone...occurs to a lot of people at one point or another. Its the natural order of things. Why fight the urge to fight? We gave up on laws on adultery since it has no negative affects on society, so why not give up on laws on assault? Ya know - just be peaceful-ish. Beavergeddon: A Swift Kick in the Butt Seriously though - if two people honestly agree to open relationship with rules or whatever - fine. Same way if two people agree to jump into a cage and fight under certain rules. I do understand animal nature, I just think that we were given the means to do more for each other.
dichotomy Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) The desire to kick the **** out someone...occurs to a lot of people at one point or another. Its the natural order of things. Why fight the urge to fight? We gave up on laws on adultery since it has no negative affects on society, so why not give up on laws on assault? Ya know - just be peaceful-ish. calvinandhobbes.png (image) Seriously though - if two people honestly agree to open relationship with rules or whatever - fine. Same way if two people agree to jump into a cage and fight under certain rules. I do understand animal nature, I just think that we were given the means to do more for each other. I don't understand what love is - without sacrifice. Edited January 16, 2015 by dichotomy
Author SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Monogamish: You're dealing with animal centers of the body. Chemicals are involved. I'm not sure I believe people could control themselves emotionally like that. Maybe I'm wrong. I would reserve Monogamish for mature couples and how would that be determined? And from what I've seen that might be a very small segment of the population. As for our relationship to other things like death---admit that there are other cultures, Mexican for example and Indonesian that are more accepting of death than say, Americans. Also, I'm playing devil's advocate here. Maybe I'd like to convince myself that fidelity doesn't mean as much as it does to me. Edited January 16, 2015 by SycamoreCircle
Author SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 What? We are helping people cope, make decisions, and improve their quality of life. Not trying to "cure" infidelity. If you think that's not a worthwhile goal then you're under no obligation to carry on reading/posting. But if you could persuade a person who has just been horribly wronged, horribly "blindsided", whatever that what has just happened to them fits into a natural order like thunderstorms, birth, the seasons and sickness and to not "fight" it so sanctimoniously, wouldn't you be helping them cope? That last statement sort of rings of "If you don't like America, then get out." Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
PegNosePete Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 But if you could persuade a person who has just been horribly wronged, horribly "blindsided", whatever that what has just happened to them fits into a natural order like thunderstorms, birth, the seasons and sickness and to not "fight" it so sanctimoniously, wouldn't you be helping them cope? If someone has been horribly wronged and blindsided and needs practical advice about how to help and improve their lives, such as "should I go back to him" or "should I forgive her" or "should I file for divorce" or "how can I make sure the kids are looked after", then all that hippie nonsense is not going to help in the slightest. That last statement sort of rings of "If you don't like America, then get out." Indeed.
Author SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) If someone has been horribly wronged and blindsided and needs practical advice about how to help and improve their lives, such as "should I go back to him" or "should I forgive her" or "should I file for divorce" or "how can I make sure the kids are looked after", then all that hippie nonsense is not going to help in the slightest. Indeed. Hippie nonsense? No sir. This is ultra-pink commie nonsense. Now where are my clippers so I can touch up my buzz cut? This is the General Relationship Discussion section. It sounds like you'd be better off in the Put-On-My-Cape-And-Save-Someone-Who-Has-A-Specific-Problem section. Edited January 16, 2015 by SycamoreCircle
salparadise Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 But if you could persuade a person who has just been horribly wronged, horribly "blindsided", whatever that what has just happened to them fits into a natural order like thunderstorms, birth, the seasons and sickness and to not "fight" it so sanctimoniously, wouldn't you be helping them cope? A lot of the divorced women that I've met have made peace with the fact that their husbands had affairs and left them for the other woman. It happens, and although I'm sure it was devastating at the time, a big part of healing is acceptance. They understand that they don't have to take it so personally. It's the ones who remain vehemently outraged years later that have issues (we don't have any of those on this forum, do we?). Humans (and other primates) are not monogamous by nature. Monogamy, and even the concept of morality, are more recent cultural/societal enhancements that are somewhat in conflict with biology. Sometimes biology wins. I find it kind of interesting how some people have such a black and white perspective on how things should be. 1
Author SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 A lot of the divorced women that I've met have made peace with the fact that their husbands had affairs and left them for the other woman. It happens, and although I'm sure it was devastating at the time, a big part of healing is acceptance. They understand that they don't have to take it so personally. It's the ones who remain vehemently outraged years later that have issues (we don't have any of those on this forum, do we?). Humans (and other primates) are not monogamous by nature. Monogamy, and even the concept of morality, are more recent cultural/societal enhancements that are somewhat in conflict with biology. Sometimes biology wins. I find it kind of interesting how some people have such a black and white perspective on how things should be. Why then don't people cheat on their partners in a perfectly caring or neutral frame of mind, if it is biological? Why is there resentment, anger, impulsiveness always or usually always associated with the act?
salparadise Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Why then don't people cheat on their partners in a perfectly caring or neutral frame of mind, if it is biological? Why is there resentment, anger, impulsiveness always or usually always associated with the act? Some do. It's probably an unfounded assumption to say that there is always one or more of these factors associated.
Lernaean_Hydra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) But if you could persuade a person who has just been horribly wronged, horribly "blindsided", whatever that what has just happened to them fits into a natural order like thunderstorms, birth, the seasons and sickness and to not "fight" it so sanctimoniously, wouldn't you be helping them cope? No. All you'd be doing is helping yet another person develop a jaded and nihilistic view of relationships. To assert that non-monogamy is "the natural order" in an attempt to lessen the blow of infidelity is, while possibly well-intentioned, largely not only false but also wildly unhelpful. We cannot, as human beings, use "the natural order" as a basis for the way we lead our lives in one respect, then completely reject said order in another. If infidelity is "natural" than so too is killing out of anger or because your neighbor is eating a better meal than you are. Also, saying something is "natural" does not in any way negate the barrage of emotions that come along with such "natural" aspects of life. Death, as others have stated, is as natural as sunrise yet there are still people who need help in coping with it. Saying something is a part of nature changes nothing about the way it makes someone feel. By the way, Mexicans, as per your example, grieve no less than their American or European counterparts when it occurs, however many of them take to coping by making death a sort of celebratory affair. Same thing with creoles in Louisiana. But neither they, nor even natives of war torn countries where death is literally a part of daily life just accept it and move on without a second thought. Acknowledging something as 'natural' doesn't mean one somehow copes "better" or accept it more. Edited January 16, 2015 by Lernaean_Hydra 1
Author SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 No. All you'd be doing is helping yet another person develop a jaded and nihilistic view of relationships. To assert that non-monogamy is "the natural order" in an attempt to lessen the blow of infidelity is, while possibly well-intentioned, largely not only false but also wildly unhelpful. We cannot, as human beings, use "the natural order" as a basis for the way we lead our lives in one respect, then completely reject said order in another. If infidelity is "natural" than so too is killing out of anger or because your neighbor is eating a better meal than you are. Also, saying something is "natural" does not in any way negate the barrage of emotions that come along with such "natural" aspects of life. Death, as others have stated, is as natural as sunrise yet there are still people who need help in coping with it. Saying something is a part of nature changes nothing about the way it makes someone feel. By the way, Mexicans, as per your example, grieve no less than their American or European counterparts when it occurs, however many of them take to coping by making death a sort of celebratory affair. Same thing with creoles in Louisiana. But neither they, nor even natives of war torn countries where death is literally a part of daily life just accept it and move on without a second thought. Acknowledging something as 'natural' doesn't mean one somehow copes "better" or accept it more. I read a book a while back, Sambian Sexual Culture, which focuses on field studies of the Sambia people of Papua New Guinea. One of the traditions of that culture was male insemination of young boys. Now, of course, in our culture such practices would be viewed as sexual assault and potentially damaging to the psyche of the child involved. Were Sambian children psychically damaged? Why can't it be as simple as raising our children to understand that: -one day you will meet someone you find attractive and feel connected to -you will become close and enter into a sexual bond -you or the other person will break that sexual bond -you will decide if you wish to continue together -you will either be together or find someone else to repeat this pattern
Marco Valerio Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 So, is there a point to our moralizing? Isn't it a kind of self-delusion? In the end we all have to accept the natural order of things. Yes, it is right not accepting others bad decisions as options in life. It is not right to be selfish when involves other people. We can not accept bad actions in life like if there were part of a "life style" you have to put up with. What is right is right, if you break up with someone, whatever reasons you have to do it, ok, but there's no need for cheating on someone. If you want or have the need ****ing someone else apart from your partner, sure you can wait 24 hours to do it.
No Limit Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 What is right is right, if you break up with someone, whatever reasons you have to do it, ok, but there's no need for cheating on someone. If you want or have the need ****ing someone else apart from your partner, sure you can wait 24 hours to do it. But so often there's no need for that. So many people reconcile, as long as you don't have things like dignity or morals consciously guarding your every move in your mind you can do as you please. Show a few tears or parade the children around and say "sorry" and "I love you" a lot and they'll take you back eventually. And after a year or two when things have settled down and the BS guard is lowered you can start another affair. You know what, scratch that. If you can find APs at your workplace you can continue without waiting for your BS to calm down. Just find someone who really loves you or is co-dependant and you can use them until their final days.
Quiet Storm Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 When I give advice to the betrayed, I don't have perspective that "this happens to everyone" or "its the natural order of things". However, I think that what I believe also helps the cheater to cope and not take it personally. I feel that many cheaters have issues. They are often conflict avoidant (I don't want to fight or disappoint my spouse, so I'll keep this issue to myself). They often have poor coping skills (I'm not happy, so I want to escape...drinking, cheating, drugs, etc). They often have a sense of entitlement (I am a good husband and father, so I deserve a little fun on the side, what she doesn't know won't hurt her). They often have low self esteem (I'm a crappy person anyway, so what the hell, I'll cheat & lie). They often have a need for validation (My husband works a lot and doesn't pay attention to me, but my coworker compliments me & talks to me). They often have family of origin issues (If I get caught, she'll forgive me like Mom forgave Dad all those times). They are often impulsive and led by their emotions (It just happened! I don't know what came over me!). I don't think it's natural to betray someone you love. I think in order to do that, you have issues within yourself that led to that decision. If it's an open relationship with no betrayal, that's a different story. Betrayal hurts, but if a person can take a step back and see their spouse for the flawed person that they are, and not take it as a personal attack against them or the marriage, I think it helps with healing. 1
Lernaean_Hydra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Why can't it be as simple as raising our children to understand that: -one day you will meet someone you find attractive and feel connected to -you will become close and enter into a sexual bond -you or the other person will break that sexual bond -you will decide if you wish to continue together -you will either be together or find someone else to repeat this pattern I'm sorry, we're now to teach our children that fidelity should neither be expected nor practiced? I can't get behind that idea at all. Again, not everyone cheats nor feels it's perfectly fine and well so "raising our children to understand" such things is nonsense. I'm not about to teach my children that betrayal is a-ok. 1
Quiet Storm Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I don't teach my kids that betrayal is OK, but I do prepare them for the real world. I teach them how to recognize dysfunctional people. I teach them to not be so forgiving of liars. I teach them to pay attention to a person's past. I tell them to look at their values- Are they dishonest? Do they have integrity? Do they keep their promises? Do they have respect for others? How do they handle conflict, adversity, boredom? How do they cope with disappointments? Do they value themselves? Do they crave drama? How is their family of origin? Do they constantly need attention & validation? Many cheaters have issues that can be spotted long before the betrayal if you just know what to look for. The key is teaching your kids to choose emotionally healthy partners, not telling them that betrayal is normal. I do prepare my kids for the difficult parts of life, but I feel like normalizing betrayal would just keep their standards low. I want them to kick liars and cheaters to the curb. I don't want them to ever tolerate bad behavior just because there are a lot of messed up people in the world. 2
Lernaean_Hydra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I do prepare my kids for the difficult parts of life, but I feel like normalizing betrayal would just keep their standards low. I want them to kick liars and cheaters to the curb. I don't want them to ever tolerate bad behavior just because there are a lot of messed up people in the world. Right. It's one thing to teach your kids that there are things in life that are beyond their control and that people can and do act in ways counter to their own set of beliefs but teaching them that such things should be treated as acceptable? Nah. Not in a million years. Saying nothing of the fact that I'd feel awful knowing I was raising little cheaters. 2
Author SycamoreCircle Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 I don't teach my kids that betrayal is OK, but I do prepare them for the real world. I teach them how to recognize dysfunctional people. I teach them to not be so forgiving of liars. I teach them to pay attention to a person's past. I tell them to look at their values- Are they dishonest? Do they have integrity? Do they keep their promises? Do they have respect for others? How do they handle conflict, adversity, boredom? How do they cope with disappointments? Do they value themselves? Do they crave drama? How is their family of origin? Do they constantly need attention & validation? Many cheaters have issues that can be spotted long before the betrayal if you just know what to look for. The key is teaching your kids to choose emotionally healthy partners, not telling them that betrayal is normal. I do prepare my kids for the difficult parts of life, but I feel like normalizing betrayal would just keep their standards low. I want them to kick liars and cheaters to the curb. I don't want them to ever tolerate bad behavior just because there are a lot of messed up people in the world. You've made some strong points in this and your previous post. So, from your experience, you don't feel like some of the disreputable behavior of cheaters stems from the fact that the cheater recognizes partly that their behavior is morally corrupt, that it goes against moral uprightness?
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