autumnnight Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 ******************************************************************* You da&n right all bets are off...The WS has just Killed the old marriage and it DOES not exist anymore...piece of paper and state statutes be damned...IT is over! The BS and WS can work on Plan B because that is what R is plan B.... Because for a time your WS WANTED the OM/OW MORE than you...so you and the marriage are both Plan B... You disagree , whine or kick and scream...your former marriage is dead.. I am NOT a proponet of revenge affairs..( to self destructive) but can surly see why people would use that as a option.... I'd say moral relativism and entitlement are two things the WS was thinking when they cheated in the first place. It would be a shame for a BS to allow their anger to transform them into someone exactly like the WS. Though I could see the above mindset making a WS feel a lot better. 1
Bartlett67 Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 So basically if one spouse cheats, even if they are still married, all bets are off and the other spouse going out and sleeping with someone else isn't really adultery because spouse A did it first. You don't even have to divorce, the marriage is officially over and you are single once your spouse cheats. I must have missed that in my state's statute..... Statute? How, pray tell, does your state's statute deal with infidelity? Maybe you should check that out. 1
BeatsByDirk Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 If someone cheats on you and you decide to stay I wouldn't agree that a revenge affair is right but then again I don't care about right and wrong. If you feel you've lived up to your part of the bargain and you got crushed while doing so, do what makes you happy, but more often than not a the he affair is just going to complicate things and not provide happiness. Still it's your life and I definitely believe you don't owe your husband faithfulness and if you don't care about the longevity of your marriage since it's in flames anyway do what you want. Most likely you would be happier being upfront and living your life in a way that specifically puts your desires and life first. 1
badkarma2013 Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Bartlett67 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Quote: Originally Posted by autumnnight View Post So basically if one spouse cheats, even if they are still married, all bets are off and the other spouse going out and sleeping with someone else isn't really adultery because spouse A did it first. You don't even have to divorce, the marriage is officially over and you are single once your spouse cheats. I must have missed that in my state's statute..... Statute? How, pray tell, does your state's statute deal with infidelity? Maybe you should check that out. ***************************************************************** Whos cares...The WS has already lit the fuse...Let the NIGHTMARE begin...
Bartlett67 Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I'd say moral relativism and entitlement are two things the WS was thinking when they cheated in the first place. It would be a shame for a BS to allow their anger to transform them into someone exactly like the WS. Though I could see the above mindset making a WS feel a lot better. any waywards out there who are trying to reconcile find this reassuring? Chime in, boys.
ladydesigner Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I'd say moral relativism and entitlement are two things the WS was thinking when they cheated in the first place. It would be a shame for a BS to allow their anger to transform them into someone exactly like the WS. Though I could see the above mindset making a WS feel a lot better. I had a Revenge Affair after I first found my WH was with someone else (OW1). While temporarily I did feel like I got even I also felt like the WS and did realize I had just become one. I do think my RA alleviated my WH's guilt about his own A's. 2
oldshirt Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I need to make clear I am not saying that RAs are good or that people should do them. I am not even saying that they won't have a harmful effect on any attempts at reconciliation. I'm not saying it will make the BS feel any better. I'm not saying it will make the WS feel any worse (as has been indicated here, some WSs will even feel somewhat vindicated) What I am saying is if partner A cheats on partner B, they no longer have any claim over Partner B's fidelity. Once that bridge has been crossed, they no longer can expect the BS to remain faithful. They no longer can expect the BS to remain in the home. They can no longer expect the BS to speak to them or treat them with dignity or respect or warmth. They no longer can expect the BS to be sexual or affectionate or warm with them. They can no longer expect to remain married. The loss of all of those things along with probably countless other things are reasonable expectations that can occur if you cheat on your spouse. That doesn't make any of the "right" but it does make them realistic. You have to expect that if you cheat on your spouse, your spouse will no longer feel entitled, obligated or even want to remain faithful to you. That is simply the risk you take when you crawl into someone else's bed. 4
autumnnight Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 but then again I don't care about right and wrong. Apparently you aren't the only one. Look, an affair is wrong and sleazy and a horrible death blow to a marriage. It makes perfect sense to me that someone would leave after being handed such pain. It also makes sense to me that the betrayed person would want to kind of see what's out there. I guess I just see this scenario where a person has been faithful in their marriage all these years, who holds fidelity and personal values in high regard, and then they find out their spouse cheats, goes and "gets some" the next weekend, and justifies it by saying "well, they did it first so I'm no longer married." If someone lies to me, I do not then consider that is it fine for me to lie. If someone steals from me, I do not consider that it is then fine for me to steal. I guess I just believe that if something is right it is right and if something is wrong then it is wrong and that MY values are my responsibility no matter what someone else chooses to do. BTW, my remark about the statute was pretty obvious sarcasm. Once that bridge has been crossed, they no longer can expect the BS to remain faithful. For me it wouldn't be about what the WS expects of me; it is about what I expect of myself. Finally, if the goal is to have the moral high ground and upper hand over a WS, then becoming one yourself seems kind of counter-productive. 1
Janesays Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 OK, so if my roofer doesn't show up to fix my roof, I AM obligated to pay him anyway. Otherwise, I lose the "moral high ground." Got it. 2
autumnnight Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) ten characters Edited January 23, 2015 by autumnnight
Bartlett67 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Apparently you aren't the only one. Look, an affair is wrong and sleazy and a horrible death blow to a marriage. It makes perfect sense to me that someone would leave after being handed such pain. It also makes sense to me that the betrayed person would want to kind of see what's out there. I guess I just see this scenario where a person has been faithful in their marriage all these years, who holds fidelity and personal values in high regard, and then they find out their spouse cheats, goes and "gets some" the next weekend, and justifies it by saying "well, they did it first so I'm no longer married." If someone lies to me, I do not then consider that is it fine for me to lie. If someone steals from me, I do not consider that it is then fine for me to steal. I guess I just believe that if something is right it is right and if something is wrong then it is wrong and that MY values are my responsibility no matter what someone else chooses to do. BTW, my remark about the statute was pretty obvious sarcasm. For me it wouldn't be about what the WS expects of me; it is about what I expect of myself. Finally, if the goal is to have the moral high ground and upper hand over a WS, then becoming one yourself seems kind of counter-productive. A. I don't give a rat's a about "moral high ground. b. There is very little I could do that would match his level of betrayal. C. He violated everything and has no standing to demand anything of me. I couldn't cede moral high ground to him if I tried. You do what you want, but you don't know crap about me or my situation. My interest might just be doing what I want after years of sacrificing for someone who proved himself totally unworthy. 1
oldshirt Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Apparently you aren't the only one. Look, an affair is wrong and sleazy and a horrible death blow to a marriage. It makes perfect sense to me that someone would leave after being handed such pain. It also makes sense to me that the betrayed person would want to kind of see what's out there. I guess I just see this scenario where a person has been faithful in their marriage all these years, who holds fidelity and personal values in high regard, and then they find out their spouse cheats, goes and "gets some" the next weekend, and justifies it by saying "well, they did it first so I'm no longer married." If someone lies to me, I do not then consider that is it fine for me to lie. If someone steals from me, I do not consider that it is then fine for me to steal. I guess I just believe that if something is right it is right and if something is wrong then it is wrong and that MY values are my responsibility no matter what someone else chooses to do. BTW, my remark about the statute was pretty obvious sarcasm. For me it wouldn't be about what the WS expects of me; it is about what I expect of myself. Finally, if the goal is to have the moral high ground and upper hand over a WS, then becoming one yourself seems kind of counter-productive. I think you are assuming that everyone who goes out with someone else after finding out about their partner cheater is doing it for revenge or what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I think that is an erroneous assumption. I think there are a lot of people that upon finding out their partner is cheating just considers the relationship dead and are simply moving forward with their lives and getting back on the dating market is just a component of that. Some people may choose to try to salvage the marriage and reconcile. Those people will likely see getting some poontang themselves as throwing gas on the fire and won't do it as they will see it as harmful to the reconciliation process. But there are going to be others that don't want to R and are simply starting to move forward with their lives. It's not part of any grand scheme of revenge, it's just leaving the cheater behind and moving on with their lives. Some people think it's important to wait for the ink to dry on the final divorce decree before they can date again. Others will see the marriage as null and void on DDay and the rest will reach that point somewhere between the two. 2
autumnnight Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I think you are assuming that everyone who goes out with someone else after finding out about their partner cheater is doing it for revenge or what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I think that is an erroneous assumption. I think there are a lot of people that upon finding out their partner is cheating just considers the relationship dead and are simply moving forward with their lives and getting back on the dating market is just a component of that. Some people may choose to try to salvage the marriage and reconcile. Those people will likely see getting some poontang themselves as throwing gas on the fire and won't do it as they will see it as harmful to the reconciliation process. But there are going to be others that don't want to R and are simply starting to move forward with their lives. It's not part of any grand scheme of revenge, it's just leaving the cheater behind and moving on with their lives. Some people think it's important to wait for the ink to dry on the final divorce decree before they can date again. Others will see the marriage as null and void on DDay and the rest will reach that point somewhere between the two. This makes sense. I especially like that last part, where you respect the fact that not everyone sees it the same. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with having friendships or even dinner with someone once your spouse has blown up your marriage. In fact, I could see needing that in a sense. My original point was just that if sleeping with someone else while married is adultery, in my own opinion, the fact that someone else does it first does not necessarily mean it is not still adultery. For some reason instead of acknowledging that possibility it devolved into anger and comparing a marriage commitment to getting a contractor to do short term work on your house. I apologize for commenting.
Confused48 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) OK, so if my roofer doesn't show up to fix my roof, I AM obligated to pay him anyway. Otherwise, I lose the "moral high ground." Got it. I like analogies so lets run with this. No you do not have to pay him. Even if he takes you to court, you will not have to pay him. However, if you are so upset that he was a no show, that you then go over to his house and chop some holes in his roof, well then he might collect some damages against you in a court of law. You have lost the moral high ground then. To bring Oldshirt's point into this, your first roofer would not have a right to object if you terminate his contract and hire a new roofer. That is all expected. Just be sure you examine the requirement of the contract and make sure you terminate it correctly, otherwise then you would be liable. Edited January 23, 2015 by Confused48 1
oldshirt Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I like analogies so lets run with this. No you do not have to pay him. Even if he takes you to court, you will not have to pay him. However, if you are so upset that he was a no show, that you then go over to his house and chop some holes in his roof, well then he might collect some damages against you in a court of law. You have lost the moral high ground then. To bring Oldshirt's point into this, your first roofer would not have a right to object if you terminate his contract and hire a new roofer. That is all expected. Just be sure you examine the requirement of the contract and make sure you terminate it correctly, otherwise then you would be liable. I agree and that's a good way to put it. If on DDay or at some point thereafter you declare the relationship dead and you file and start moving on with your life, that's just how that cookie crumbles. But if you stay in the home, hold it over the cheaters head and start screwing other people just to seek revenge or inflict pain on the WS, that's just an A-hole. 3
Janesays Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I like analogies so lets run with this. No you do not have to pay him. Even if he takes you to court, you will not have to pay him. However, if you are so upset that he was a no show, that you then go over to his house and chop some holes in his roof, well then he might collect some damages against you in a court of law. You have lost the moral high ground then. To bring Oldshirt's point into this, your first roofer would not have a right to object if you terminate his contract and hire a new roofer. That is all expected. Just be sure you examine the requirement of the contract and make sure you terminate it correctly, otherwise then you would be liable. That analogy doesn't fly because the agreement was NEVER my roof for his roof. It was my money for his work. No work? No money. Now, in the case of marriage, it WAS my fidelity for his fidelity. When he cheated, he broke the contract rendering the marriage null and void. Does that give me the right to go burn his house down (chop holes in his roof). No, and no one is arguing that. We are simply saying that by not upholding his end of the marriage contract, he renders the contract null and void. You end your marriage the very second you cheat. The marriage is over. Dead. Done. And the betrayed is free to replace you with someone who can do the job the right way. Sorry, not sorry. My morals are intact. I don't owe anyone jack. And if you live in a no fault state, that holds up legally as well. I specifically asked my lawyer about dating and, in my state, it's perfectly legit. However, if you live in a fault state, you might have to wait for the ink to dry. Good thing there are very few fault states. Edited January 23, 2015 by Janesays 1
BetrayedH Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 That analogy doesn't fly because the agreement was NEVER my roof for his roof. It was my money for his work. No work? No money. Now, in the case of marriage, it WAS my fidelity for his fidelity. When he cheated, he broke the contract rendering the marriage null and void. Does that give me the right to go burn his house down (chop holes in his roof). No, and no one is arguing that. We are simply saying that by not upholding his end of the marriage contract, he renders the contract null and void. You end your marriage the very second you cheat. The marriage is over. Dead. Done. And the betrayed is free to replace you with someone who can do the job the right way. Sorry, not sorry. My morals are intact. I don't owe anyone jack. And if you live in a not fault state, that holds up legally as well. I specifically asked my lawyer about dating and, in my state, it's perfectly legit. However, if you live in a fault state, you might have to wait for the ink to dry. Good thing there are very few fault states. I think this is all well and good as long as you're not essentially renewing the contract by keeping him in the marriage/reconciling and secretly breaking your end of the contract. Some may say it's "not right" or that it's immoral to date while still technically married. Personally on that note, I agree with you and oldshirt that the WS gave up the right to the marriage when they broke the agreement. It may not be wise to date someone that early but I wouldn't judge someone for it. In some cases, it can bring legal complications and in others, it won't. In the case of the OP, it sounds like he was secretly lurking on dating websites during his reconciliation. For me, that was a slippery slope and one I fell on. I think he's lucky it didn't go further. I also don't like that I was straight-up lying to my WS during the process. I compromised my own standards just because someone else did. Grr.
Janesays Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I think this is all well and good as long as you're not essentially renewing the contract by keeping him in the marriage/reconciling and secretly breaking your end of the contract. I think the only problem I have there is the word 'secret.' If the BS straight up says, "I'd consider R, but I will be getting my own extramarital jollies until I feel able to commit to fidelity," then I see zero problem. I think the BS is at least being honest and giving the WS the ability to protect themselves from STDs and CHOOSE whether or not that arrangement is agreeable to them. Which is a heck of a lot more respect than their WS ever gave them. We're told over and over that R is a gift. A GIFT. So no, the WS doesn't not get to dictate the parameters of that gift. They can choose to accept that gift as the BS feels fit to give it or they can refuse that gift and divorce. But they lost any and all rights to the original contract the second they trashed it. As long as their BS is honest about their intentions and gives their WS the ability to protect their health and choose to walk away if they feel their emotional health is threatened intolerably, then the BS is morally clear in my book. Oh look! I just reoffered my roofer the job...only now I'm offering to pay him less money. If he doesnt want the job, fine. I'll hire a new roofer. Edited January 23, 2015 by Janesays 3
badkarma2013 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I think the only problem I have there is the word 'secret.' If the BS straight up says, "I'd consider R, but I will be getting my own extramarital jollies until I feel able to commit to fidelity," then I see zero problem. I think the BS is at least being honest and giving the WS the ability to protect themselves from STDs and CHOOSE whether or not that arrangement is agreeable to them. Which is a heck of a lot more respect than their WS ever gave them. We're told over and over that R is a gift. A GIFT. So no, the WS doesn't not get to dictate the parameters of that gift. They can choose to accept that gift as the BS feels fit to give it or they can refuse that gift and divorce. But they lost any and all rights to the original contract the second they trashed it. As long as their BS is honest about their intentions and gives their WS the ability to protect their health and choose to walk away if they feel their emotional health is threatened intolerably, then the BS is morally clear in my book. Oh look! I just reoffered my roofer the job...only now I'm offering to pay him less money. If he doesnt want the job, fine. I'll hire a new roofer. God I love Jane ...Another straight shooter NO BS... Love the honesty ...Quite refreshing from a BW.....Ive never done roofing BUT...lol
Bartlett67 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I think the only problem I have there is the word 'secret.' If the BS straight up says, "I'd consider R, but I will be getting my own extramarital jollies until I feel able to commit to fidelity," then I see zero problem. I think the BS is at least being honest and giving the WS the ability to protect themselves from STDs and CHOOSE whether or not that arrangement is agreeable to them. Which is a heck of a lot more respect than their WS ever gave them. We're told over and over that R is a gift. A GIFT. So no, the WS doesn't not get to dictate the parameters of that gift. They can choose to accept that gift as the BS feels fit to give it or they can refuse that gift and divorce. But they lost any and all rights to the original contract the second they trashed it. As long as their BS is honest about their intentions and gives their WS the ability to protect their health and choose to walk away if they feel their emotional health is threatened intolerably, then the BS is morally clear in my book. Oh look! I just reoffered my roofer the job...only now I'm offering to pay him less money. If he doesnt want the job, fine. I'll hire a new roofer. Right. I'd like to chime in on the idiotic concept of "moral high ground" as it applies to the betrayed. My husband and I entered into a mutual monogamous relationship, both of our own free will. He didn't have to, and had he not, I'd have kept seeing others without feeling obligated to tell hom anything of my private goings on. He didn't just end the monogamous reationship. He. Did it dishonestly. His was an act of pure dishonor. I have no moral obligation to him. None. Ill tell you where the moral high ground lies: it's with me remaining faithful to him for twenty-one years through a hell of a lot more thin than thick. It's with me sacrificing myself over and over to aid his ambitions. I even put up with his plummeting sex drive only to have the old cliche "sexless marriage," thrown in my face when he f'd around. I owe him some kind of accounting of my doings? Yeah. Right. I am free. I have no moral obligation to him. No more than if he were someone I picked up for a quick roll in the hay. He did that. 2
badkarma2013 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Right. I'd like to chime in on the idiotic concept of "moral high ground" as it applies to the betrayed. My husband and I entered into a mutual monogamous relationship, both of our own free will. He didn't have to, and had he not, I'd have kept seeing others without feeling obligated to tell hom anything of my private goings on. He didn't just end the monogamous reationship. He. Did it dishonestly. His was an act of pure dishonor. I have no moral obligation to him. None. Ill tell you where the moral high ground lies: it's with me remaining faithful to him for twenty-one years through a hell of a lot more thin than thick. It's with me sacrificing myself over and over to aid his ambitions. I even put up with his plummeting sex drive only to have the old cliche "sexless marriage," thrown in my face when he f'd around. I owe him some kind of accounting of my doings? Yeah. Right. I am free. I have no moral obligation to him. No more than if he were someone I picked up for a quick roll in the hay. He did that. ************************************************************** Quid Pro Quo...If can not handle the fallout from your A...Don't commit infidelity...Lest you take the chance of coming home and finding them in bed with someone...Looking at you and saying "well how do you like me now." Thanks for the blunt honesty Bartlett67
Confused48 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 ************************************************************** Quid Pro Quo...If can not handle the fallout from your A...Don't commit infidelity...Lest you take the chance of coming home and finding them in bed with someone...Looking at you and saying "well how do you like me now." I'm not a WS, but I imagine if I were, I'd say, so we are the same! Thank goodness and to think that until now I was beating myself up over this! Just like I told you, its no big deal. All the cool kids are doing it. Now you too! Right or wrong, justified or not, that is how a lot of WS would react. As a BS in that situation I'd be thinking, Crap! I'm a rutting pig with no restraint or sense of decorum and got caught in my rutting. Not good! Even if some how I could put a blame shifting, justifying face on it, still, not good. Not a place I would willingly go. But that is just me. I leave you all to your own decisions on this. Everyone has their own level of comfort about such things. Now if I had said to the WS, get out, I'm going to bringing the party home tonight, well then that is horse of a whole different color. IMHO.
Bartlett67 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I'm not a WS, but I imagine if I were, I'd say, so we are the same! Thank goodness and to think that until now I was beating myself up over this! Just like I told you, its no big deal. All the cool kids are doing it. Now you too! Right or wrong, justified or not, that is how a lot of WS would react. As a BS in that situation I'd be thinking, Crap! I'm a rutting pig with no restraint or sense of decorum and got caught in my rutting. Not good! Even if some how I could put a blame shifting, justifying face on it, still, not good. Not a place I would willingly go. But that is just me. I leave you all to your own decisions on this. Everyone has their own level of comfort about such things. Now if I had said to the WS, get out, I'm going to bringing the party home tonight, well then that is horse of a whole different color. IMHO. Like I said, I spent twenty- plus years being faithful and at great sacrifice. He and I will never be equal. Not ever again. And why would a non-attached person have to feel guilty about pursuing sexual relationships?
Confused48 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Like I said, I spent twenty- plus years being faithful and at great sacrifice. He and I will never be equal. Not ever again. And why would a non-attached person have to feel guilty about pursuing sexual relationships? As long as a person handles it in a reasonable manner, then I agree, no cause for shame. However, I assume that if, as in the example presented, the WS comes home to be surprised at finding the BS in bed with another, well then that IMHO is not handling the moving on process in a reasonable manner.
Bartlett67 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 As long as a person handles it in a reasonable manner, then I agree, no cause for shame. However, I assume that if, as in the example presented, the WS comes home to be surprised at finding the BS in bed with another, well then that IMHO is not handling the moving on process in a reasonable manner. You may be using the wrong frame, here. He is making every effort to reconcile,as am I. I'm not moving on, so much as trying to make peace with his decision to nuke 21 years of marriage for a sleaze of no consequence. I had no part in that decision. Wasn't consulted. Was lied to, repeatedly. He needs to win me back, not assume I'm his default. Me: lookin out for number one, yo.
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