Secondary relationships after the affair --

[merrmeade]

Is it reasonable to ask your fWS to let go a relationship that happened because of the affair or is that too controlling?

 

My nephews got very close to my H during his A with my sister-in-law, which ended two years ago. Their father, my brother, was in a nursing home several hours away and I was out of the country a great deal. So they became like a little substitute family, and the boys looked up to my H, who was actually a better father-figure than for his own kids at that age (WS personality change). Everybody knows about the A in both families.

 

There's been complete NC between my H and SIL since Dday, and I've only been in contact with her for family matters, including my brother's funeral a few months ago. Obviously normalizing will never happen between the 3 of us.

 

One of my nephews still clearly feels close to my H, closer than to me. He visits us occasionally and likes to talk 'man-to-man' with my H. I got really depressed after the last visit and tried to explain to my H why their reminiscing about those years was upsetting, a trigger.

 

Last week, this nephew texted a holiday greeting to my H, which he answered without telling me. The nephew sent me nothing. This both irked me and hurt my feelings.

 

So here's my question: Am I being petty? Should I try to rise above my issues and stay out of the nephew/uncle bond, even though it was possible only because of the affair? Is it reasonable for me to feel dismissed and disrespected that everybody is so able and willing to resume relations as usual?

[central]

IMO, it's not reasonable to ask him to end the relationship with your nephews, unless they are used as a way for him to remain in contact with your SIL. The kids are innocent, and benefit from his interest, so they are the ones you'd really be punishing.

[merrmeade]

Thank you and I do see this intellectually (their innocence and benefit).

 

The main thing is that (a) she is always a victim and this A became twisted with everything else in the same way so that I was and am, in the end, the villain and the one perpetrating bad feelings and destroying the family and (b) THAT's what her boys are exposed to.

 

Also these factors keep me feeling vulnerable and forgotten in all of it:

 

1 - The FACT that they look up to him and what that means to H.

I mean, he cultivated this admiration. Needed it. Worked at it. Much more than for his own kids and in ways and words I've never associated with him. I read all their emails and KNOW this. For whatever reason, he was trying to be different with them and the whole situation had everybody's head messed up. That my brother had overnight become a quadriplegic made them vulnerable and needy. He says he didn't know if I was coming back (though I didn't know he was even wondering). He needed to be needed, respected and admired. Apparently H told one nephew "I was just trying to help," when he 'fessed up to him - a comment which reveals oodles of cluelessness, entitlement and mind-f--k.

 

2 - These boys are both in their twenties, not children.

 

3 - Yet they what they know about the A and about me is from her. Her attitude in the beginning was - and by all indication still IS - this:

a) It was 90% friendship + 10% oopsies! which they tried to avoid but occasionally "lost it," which they knew was "stupid."

b) He was her best friend. It was about family. H (mine) was family (even though this was only possible because of the spouses they were convincing themselves deserved betraying).

c) She was beginning separation from my brother when he had his stroke. She also blame him and his lack of compliance with medical directives for his condition.

c) She makes me out as a cold, unfriendable, vitriolic and generally all 'round unpleasant person who didn't understand or deserve my husband (with whom she was cuckolding her own). Theirs was a pure relationship, bullsh-t, bullsh-t, bullsh-t, innocent (so NOT!)....

d) I have current indications she STILL views their relationship and those events the SAME way, e.g., she discusses him and us casually and knowledgeably with extended family without compunction.

 

4 - H is pretty dense (another thread) about how to handle all of this.

I actually told him how to help me when nephew visits. It was things like - when the conversation goes in a direction that might create a trigger for me (assuming he can anticipate this), he can change the subject, touch and reassure me, show everybody I am worth protecting. He wasn't sure he could do this, said it makes him feel so bad about himself he'd just rather avoid nephew, etc. So even with counseling, H has to be told what to do and why either by me or the therapist. (Like I said, H is another thread.)

 

5 - My brother died recently. I definitely feel that his family (SIL, nephews) want reconciliation, feel it's possible. THey wanted H to come to the funeral (no). His ashes will be interred in a few months. H won't go but I'll be blamed.

 

I think what I"m really saying is that it - the renewed relationship between my nephew(s) and my H - threatens me, makes me feel vulnerable all over again because the fact is that NO ONE does have my back and my SIL always becomes the victim.

Edited December 30, 2014 by merrmeade

[harrybrown]

So sorry about your brother.

 

I do hope your H will realize what he still could lose and helps you heal.

 

please continue to give him guidance on how to help especially with that part of the family.

 

Some of us guys are dense and do not always pick up on some important things.

 

However, I have always been faithful to my wife. I wish she could say the same.

[merrmeade]

So sorry about your brother.

 

I do hope your H will realize what he still could lose and helps you heal.

 

please continue to give him guidance on how to help especially with that part of the family.

 

Some of us guys are dense and do not always pick up on some important things.

 

However, I have always been faithful to my wife. I wish she could say the same.

Thank you so much, HB. I have always treasured and been touched by your caring posts. It's sometimes the most important thing to post here and just be swept up by the understanding and care.

[merrmeade]

Ok. Maybe I'm good. Maybe this is enough. We're in a vacuum sometimes, H and I, and don't get enough validation. I think this is about us, not them.

 

Anyway, it's clear. They're innocent. They love him and are close to him. Doesn't matter why. I don't need to be jealous or proprietary about their feelings and she has nothing to do with it.

 

I can do this for my brother's sake.

Edited December 30, 2014 by merrmeade

[road]

Do these nephews know that their uncle(your WH) was banging their dad's wife, aka their mom was cheating on their dad with their uncle?

[merrmeade]

Do these nephews know that their uncle(your WH) was banging their dad's wife, aka their mom was cheating on their dad with their uncle?

First, let me explain. Until this year, I was TT'd big time about H's affairs. There were other As and there was intercourse.

 

But in his co-dependent EA with my SIL, he (and, I suppose, she) deluded themselves into believing that the only thing wrong with their relationship was the hand jobs they gave each other on occasion. Nevermind that SIL was in love with him. Nevermind that they were co-dependent and in constant contact. Or that my brother and I knew nothing of the life they were creating together in the name of 'aunt' and 'uncle.' It was an Affair, mostly EA and active all day every day by phone, internet or in person for three years, all hidden because we would've been "uncomfortable." (The hand-f_cks didn't count, see. Just "stupid" accidents. And the sexting, well, I think that was blamed on him and he called it flirting.)

 

Dick in hand. Dick in vagina. Pure semantics with this kind of mind-f_ck. But Bill Clinton and my H aren't alone. At first, my kids also considered intercourse the deal-breaker. Not any more. Without saying a word, I was there, and they saw. They get it now.

 

So back to the nephews. You are right that their tolerance and easy forgiveness raises a doubt. Do they know "mom was cheating on their dad with their uncle"? Dunno. I do know that one of them told my daughter early on that his mother had shared "all the gory details. Question is: What's 'gory' to a squeamish, naive 20-year-old? His brother found out some months later am but unsure when or how much he was told either.

 

I figure she passed on to her kids the same delusional story she lives with, including sympathy for the uncle and judgment for the difficult aunt who just won't understand or forgive.

Edited December 31, 2014 by merrmeade

[road]

First, let me explain. Until this year, I was TT'd big time about H's affairs. There were other As and there was intercourse.

 

But in his co-dependent EA with my SIL, he (and, I suppose, she) deluded themselves into believing that the only thing wrong with their relationship was the hand jobs they gave each other on occasion. Nevermind that SIL was in love with him. Nevermind that they were co-dependent and in constant contact. Or that my brother and I knew nothing of the life they were creating together in the name of 'aunt' and 'uncle.' It was an Affair, mostly EA and active all day every day by phone, internet or in person for three years, all hidden because we would've been "uncomfortable." (The hand-f_cks didn't count, see. Just "stupid" accidents. And the sexting, well, I think that was blamed on him and he called it flirting.)

 

Dick in hand. Dick in vagina. Pure semantics with this kind of mind-f_ck. But Bill Clinton and my H aren't alone. At first, my kids also considered intercourse the deal-breaker. Not any more. Without saying a word, I was there, and they saw. They get it now.

 

So back to the nephews. You are right that their tolerance and easy forgiveness raises a doubt. Do they know "mom was cheating on their dad with their uncle"? Dunno. I do know that one of them told my daughter early on that his mother had shared "all the gory details. Question is: What's 'gory' to a squeamish, naive 20-year-old? His brother found out some months later am but unsure when or how much he was told either.

 

I figure she passed on to her kids the same delusional story she lives with, including sympathy for the uncle and judgment for the difficult aunt who just won't understand or forgive.

 

 

 

If there presence triggers you that much then you need to tell them the truth this way they will know what really happened and why you, your WH, and kids need NC with them and their mom.

[Mr. Lucky]

First, let me explain. Until this year, I was TT'd big time about H's affairs. There were other As and there was intercourse.

 

Why would you forgive your husband his active part but not them their passive one? In other words, why are they the focus of your concern ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

Why would you forgive your husband his active part but not them their passive one? In other words, why are they the focus of your concern ???

 

Mr. Lucky

There's nothing to forgive. They didn't do anything wrong. These were my questions post #1:

Is it reasonable to ask your fWS to let go a relationship that happened because of the affair or is that too controlling? Am I being petty? Should I try to rise above my issues and stay out of the nephew/uncle bond, even though it was possible only because of the affair? Is it reasonable for me to feel dismissed and disrespected that everybody is so able and willing to resume relations as usual?

 

I'm just trying to figure out my feelings and what to do about them. I can tell myself that they have the right to have a relationship with him but what do I do about the sudden "dive" into depression that sweeps over me when they begin to remember a past I cannot share and has only one association for me. I'm swept off a cliff and fall slowly, surely into a sea of despair, despondency and forgottenness. I cannot speak, no one notices and so I continue to fall...

 

...and so forth.

 

What do I do about that?

[road]

If there presence triggers you that much then you need to tell them the truth this way they will know what really happened and why you, your WH, and kids need NC with them and their mom.

 

 

 

 

Why ignore this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's nothing to forgive. They didn't do anything wrong. These were my questions post #1:

Is it reasonable to ask your fWS to let go a relationship that happened because of the affair or is that too controlling? Am I being petty? Should I try to rise above my issues and stay out of the nephew/uncle bond, even though it was possible only because of the affair? Is it reasonable for me to feel dismissed and disrespected that everybody is so able and willing to resume relations as usual?

 

I'm just trying to figure out my feelings and what to do about them. I can tell myself that they have the right to have a relationship with him but what do I do about the sudden "dive" into depression that sweeps over me when they begin to remember a past I cannot share and has only one association for me. I'm swept off a cliff and fall slowly, surely into a sea of despair, despondency and forgottenness. I cannot speak, no one notices and so I continue to fall...

 

...and so forth.

 

What do I do about that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then post this?

[merrmeade]

They don't want to talk to me about it. I don't think I'd get an audience.

[Mal78]

Is it reasonable to ask your fWS to let go a relationship that happened because of the affair or is that too controlling?

 

My nephews got very close to my H during his A with my sister-in-law, which ended two years ago. Their father, my brother, was in a nursing home several hours away and I was out of the country a great deal. So they became like a little substitute family, and the boys looked up to my H, who was actually a better father-figure than for his own kids at that age (WS personality change). Everybody knows about the A in both families.

 

There's been complete NC between my H and SIL since Dday, and I've only been in contact with her for family matters, including my brother's funeral a few months ago. Obviously normalizing will never happen between the 3 of us.

 

One of my nephews still clearly feels close to my H, closer than to me. He visits us occasionally and likes to talk 'man-to-man' with my H. I got really depressed after the last visit and tried to explain to my H why their reminiscing about those years was upsetting, a trigger.

 

Last week, this nephew texted a holiday greeting to my H, which he answered without telling me. The nephew sent me nothing. This both irked me and hurt my feelings.

 

So here's my question: Am I being petty? Should I try to rise above my issues and stay out of the nephew/uncle bond, even though it was possible only because of the affair? Is it reasonable for me to feel dismissed and disrespected that everybody is so able and willing to resume relations as usual?

 

I could honestly see how this would be hurtful and bothersome. It is very rare that good can come out of an A. Your situation is very unique and as hard as it may be you might have to embrace this positive outcome. These boys have a role model (which almost sounds like an oxy moron given the circumstance).

 

How old are your nephews? Do they realize what happened?

[Mr. Lucky]

 

I'm just trying to figure out my feelings and what to do about them. I can tell myself that they have the right to have a relationship with him but what do I do about the sudden "dive" into depression that sweeps over me when they begin to remember a past I cannot share and has only one association for me. I'm swept off a cliff and fall slowly, surely into a sea of despair, despondency and forgottenness. I cannot speak, no one notices and so I continue to fall...

 

...and so forth.

 

What do I do about that?

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. But you do understand it wasn't their actions that put you in this position, right?

 

Hope you're in MC or IC. You understandably have some feelings and anger still to deal with. And I'd certainly wish your H is doing everything he can to help you heal. It's a long road...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

I'm sorry you feel that way. But you do understand it wasn't their actions that put you in this position, right?

 

Hope you're in MC or IC. You understandably have some feelings and anger still to deal with. And I'd certainly wish your H is doing everything he can to help you heal. It's a long road...

 

Mr. Lucky

Yes, of course, I know it wasn't their actions.

 

We're in MC and I'm in IC and, though I KNOCKED myself out for MONTHS looking for the right therapists, I'm afraid maybe they're not right. The MC guy tries to draw out my H, who is pathologically uncommunicative and conflict avoidant, but offers ZERO reflection or guidance. His focus seems to be on keeping us both talking. Going over the affairs has become less relevant. We changed to twice a month, which is like not going at all, and with the recent holidays and a trip out of state, we missed a lot of sessions. I'm not so happy with it and my H doesn't say. He did hang his head when I said I didn't see any point in continuing since nothing had changed because of it and when I suggested stopping it he said we really couldn't afford it anyway. Yeah. Lack of initiative is putting it mildly.

 

I've seen the IC therapist twice. She's pleasantly motivating, shares a lot more than the MC guy but focuses on my depression and lifestyle issues more than exhuming the affair skeleton.

 

I must say - and this will be a bit of a shock:

I have talked to NO ONE about the affair. Only anonymous Loveshack posters. My parents are dead. My children are off limits. My cousin sided with my SIL. My childhood friend considers herself friend to the whole family and could not or would not help. My brother's health issues precluded his being told. My other brother sympathizes with no one and would hold it against my H. I let friends slip away over the years, having moved a lot, lived abroad, worked too hard and struggled to parent virtually alone.

 

This latter was SIL's poison dart on Dday. The moment I realized SIL = OW, she began justifying concealment of the 'friendship' because I wouldn't understand since I don't have any. Ironically, I'd loved SIL as a friend and sister.

 

Several traumas like that need to be purged. So, agreed: IC is needed.

[merrmeade]

I'm sorry you feel that way. But you do understand it wasn't their actions that put you in this position, right?

 

Hope you're in MC or IC. You understandably have some feelings and anger still to deal with. And I'd certainly wish your H is doing everything he can to help you heal. It's a long road...

 

Mr. Lucky

Yes, of course, I know it wasn't their actions.

 

We're in MC and I'm in IC and, though I KNOCKED myself out for MONTHS looking for the right therapists, I'm afraid maybe they're not right. The MC guy tries to draw out my H, who is pathologically uncommunicative and conflict avoidant, but offers ZERO reflection or guidance. His focus seems to be on keeping us both talking. Going over the affairs has become less relevant. We changed to twice a month, which is like not going at all, and with the recent holidays and a trip out of state, we missed a lot of sessions. I'm not so happy with it and my H doesn't say. He did hang his head when I said I didn't see any point in continuing since nothing had changed because of it and when I suggested stopping it he said we really couldn't afford it anyway. Yeah. Lack of initiative is putting it mildly.

 

I've seen the IC therapist twice. She's pleasantly motivating, shares a lot more than the MC guy but focuses on my depression and lifestyle issues more than exhuming the affair skeleton.

 

I must say - and this will be a bit of a shock:

I have talked to NO ONE about the affair. Only anonymous Loveshack posters. My parents are dead. My children are off limits. My cousin sided with my SIL. My childhood friend considers herself friend to the whole family and could not or would not help. My brother's health issues precluded his being told. My other brother sympathizes with no one and would hold it against my H. I let friends slip away over the years, having moved a lot, lived abroad, worked too hard and struggled to parent virtually alone.

 

This latter was SIL's poison dart on Dday. At the moment I was realizing SIL = OW, she began justifying concealment of the 'friendship' because I wouldn't understand since I don't have any. Ironically, I'd loved SIL as a friend and sister.

 

Several traumas like that need to be purged. So, agreed: IC is needed.

[merrmeade]

... as hard as it may be you might have to embrace this positive outcome. These boys have a role model (which almost sounds like an oxy moron given the circumstance).

 

How old are your nephews? Do they realize what happened?

I agree about the positive outcome and role model. I saw it the last time one of them was here. I do see the bond with my husband is real, not merely H's need for validation, and even other positives from my husband's time with that family.

 

It's hard to admit, harder to encourage, especially realizing that they do not know me and do not care to. What they do know is from family stories and these are slanted by others' bias. My brother always treated me as the goofy little sister. My H doesn't sing anyone's praises, and SIL, of course, would not have been charitable. I've heard myself ridiculed through the family stories the nephews do recount and see no interest on their parts in changing the profile they have in their minds.

 

In one of my SIL's emails to my husband, she wrote that he was the "one family member who has consistently been there for me." That is what my nephews heard; that is what has touched them. That he is their 'uncle' because of me is incidental. So be it.

 

I'll try to focus on what's good for them - for my brother's sake.

[road]

They don't want to talk to me about it. I don't think I'd get an audience.

 

 

 

It is not about want they want it is about what you need.

 

 

That is you sit them down and tell them what happened and that NC is to be in place.

[LifesontheUp]

Sorry to read this Merrmeade.

 

I agree with Road that they should be told - they are old enough! And I find it wrong that you are having to feel bad in the circumstances.

 

What I can't pick up from your posts, is what is your husband doing about this as it clearly is upsetting you?

[Mr. Lucky]

What I can't pick up from your posts, is what is your husband doing about this as it clearly is upsetting you?

 

Also a mystery to me. merrmeade, your few references to him are mostly about what he isn't doing so hard to understand what he's proactively contributing to your recovery. When emotions get bottled up, they look for an outlet. I'd guess your angst over your nephews is an example of this.

 

Hope you have a good holiday. Keep posting...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

Time to answer these questions:

What is my husband doing about it? He's hopeless. As has been said, people cheat often because they are broken. Here's what's working against his becoming a 'pro-active,' truly remorseful, compassionate ex-cheater:

 

-- He's incapable of being pro-active about ANYTHING ever in personal or professional life. This is the most passive rug-sweeper you can possibly imagine. He tried to blame the women for 4 of the 5 affairs he confessed. It is also clear that he only 'ended' two of them himself. In fact, he said he finally introduced one of the APs to me as a way of ending the A - young wife, new baby, etc. (i.e.: Maybe she would leave him alone.) This was the AP who fell in love with his brother, confessed the A before marrying him, and stayed married. To make it more nauseating and shocking, I only found out two months ago that the brother told my H that he knew about their A before marrying her. Even that display of character - on both their parts - did not make my H consider telling me.

 

We were both endowed with unusual physical beauty. We also agreed that a random biological phenomenon warranted no pride or ownership though others' responses (and, perhaps, his own libido) may have been beyond our control. I kept being entered into, and winning, beauty contests but was not the female counterpart to his virility. He was simply the handsomest, sexiest man I have ever seen in my life, and women never stopped noticing, flirting and coming onto him. I naively assumed he handled these come-ons with the same black-and-white code of ethics I thought we shared. If I knew people who gave into temptations and attractions, I didn't know I did.

 

I didn't really finish this and can't really explain the thought process connecting these two paragraphs.

 

I'm in depression again. We stopped MC. The guy wasn't helping and we couldn't afford it. I'm in IC, putting everything on a credit card. The last thing she said to me made great sense. She said that this kind of "flat" depression sounds like anger ignored, told me that if I posted here again to focus on my feelings, that I could go on and on forever analyzing and explaining but that wouldn't do anything for the underlying feelings. So what did I just do? I started to analyze and explain (what, I don't know), then stopped abruptly, leaving those two paragraphs disjointed.

 

So I was better about it though I think I stop, knowing that if I do this correctly - allow the underlying feelings to be expressed - it will be the end. So last night I couldn't go to bed, couldn't face the sex, felt myself becoming quite angry. I thought about it. All three of my f-king sisters-in-law have either had intercourse, sexual intimacy or an EA with my husband or wanted to be seduced by him. My kids only know about one of these. No one else in the family knows except the SIL and brother who are married. H is crippled by toxic shame and cannot begin to meet me halfway yet manages to work and make a living. I cannot even do that. I have nothing but my kids, grandchild and another on the way.

 

--His remorse is basically an immobilizing shame. I saw it best after my nephew visited last time and I tried to thwart my own plummet into depression by telling H what he needed to do to help me, thereby, helping us, when situations threaten to become triggers. H could not speak or commit to anything I said. He slumped in his chair unresponsive, looked the way I feel most of the time. He says more nowadays that he doesn't see any end to this, thinks it's hopeless, is ready to quit. Of course, that should be my line.

 

Oh, wtf, it is worse that we are old and so helpless, emotionally stunted and unable to do anything. I talk; he listens; nothing happens.

 

Oh, new development: His sister made the ex-AP/SIL/wife of his brother responsible for selling all the property in her estate when she dies (soon) b/c that's what the SIL did for a livelihood: She handled endowments to a huge university complex, i.e., arranged auctions, sales, etc. My husband is the executor of the estate which means he has to sign off on everything exAP/SIL/wife of his brother does. All of this will have to take place in another state halfway across the country. I f--king quit.

Edited January 13, 2015 by merrmeade
who knows?

[harrybrown]

Tell your H that unless he resigns as the executor and goes NC with your SIL, that he will find out how much he misses his wonderful family.

 

How would he feel if you had all these A's?

 

He would hate it.

[LifesontheUp]

Merrmeade, I am so sorry to read your post.

 

Can I ask why you want to be with him? What is stopping you kicking his a$$ to the kerb?

[merrmeade]

How would he feel if you had all these A's?

 

He would hate it.

Not so sure about that...