xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I understand your point, however... Its kind of a passive aggressive way of handling that, though.... TFY I agree. I'd be surprised if it were a one-sided issue, even leading up to the drop off in sex. If a wife posts about not desiring sex, I'd tell her to open her eyes and deal with her crap. Either confront the husband about the ways he's turning her off, or appreciate the husband she has fully and show it. I don't justify passive aggression in either gender. 1
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 But you ignore the fact that in some relationships, the emotional connection that is so important to some women diminishes, they no longer feel close to a man who they feel is distant, preoccupied or even downright hostile or they have pain or are too tired, too stressed from raising children to even contemplate sex and what is left is often a man demanding sex, or whining when it is not on offer. That leads to resentment as the man clearly no longer understands her, and that leads to even less sex. Instead of attempting to truly understand or work through it, it appears lack of sex is often seen by men as the woman wielding "control" and therefore it needs stamped upon by punishment - ie cheating or leaving. How often do women explain this stuff though? I am only now hearing about lack of connection (rather than just lack of attraction) with their partner. If the witholder sits the other partner down and has a frank discussion and offers solutions then fair enough. However it seems from what I read on here and hear IRL that the standard reaction is for sex to dwindle and nothing is said, the other partner is shut out and confused and the witholder knows full well what is going on and consciousky does not confront it because the status quo of little to no sex suits their purpose. Confronting it results in tough decisions having to be made and a challenge to the comfort zone that the witholder has created. I must admit the scenario above seems to most commonly play out where the witholder is having an affair and sees their sex drive as the property of their AP rather than their spouse. In those threads you never hear about any frank discussion taking place, just that one partner lets their commitment dwindle until its once a month duty sex. If there are problems then surely its the domain of the party with the issue to discuss their problems-- or maybe judging by the way this thread is going its the problem of the other partner for daring to have a sex drive and still finding the partner they married attractive?
truncated Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Where I am drawing the line is cases like this one where the withholder simply does not want to have intimacy with the withholdee anymore and expects the withholdee to continue to provide and just suck it up and live with it. It doesn't really have anything to do with frequency. If someone is just begrudgingly putting out some starfish sex and letting their partner masturbate with their body every now and then to shut them up and they lay there looking at clock and telling them to hurry up, then it doesn't count. When someone is doing that then all bets are off. No cheating is not righteous or just or called for in that situation but at that point the withholder has waived their right to exclusivity. The reason this makes people uncomfortable is all of have declined our partner at some point or another. I am the horniest guy on the planet and even I have declined my wife on occasion. Does that mean she should go get it elsewhere??? No. No because I am still committed to trying to meet her needs and trying to have an intimate and full service relationship. She knows that I may be too tired or too sick or too stressed out on Friday night but she knows that by Sat or Sun night I will bring the thunder and love her up good....twice. I'm not talking about normal couples that have normal things come up to interfer with a night of passion now and then. I am talking about cases like this one where it is established that one party no longer wants to be intimate with the other and has no room in their life for intimacy with them and they begrudge that the other still wants a sex life. For those people, they have no right to expect or demand exclusivity. The cheating may still be wrong but it is a natural and to be expected result of the environment that they created. I just can't help but thhink that if it's a situation where someone feels noe desire to ever have sex with ther partner ( baring some sort of medical issue) and the other spouse is at a point where they feel they need to cheat to get their needs met and are issuin ultimatums, then what is the point of stayin g married anyway.? What kind of marriage is that? 2
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 If there are problems then surely its the domain of the party with the issue to discuss their problems-- or maybe judging by the way this thread is going its the problem of the other partner for daring to have a sex drive and still finding the partner they married attractive? I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I don't justify withholding sex anymore than I justify affairs. What do you think of when you hear the word "nag"? A man or a woman? A woman who brings up her feelings and problems can be dismissed as "nagging". It's in the societal script. THis can lead to resentment building in wives, especially after the babies arrive (new parents are navigating a stress and resentment minefield). And resentment kills women's sexual attraction. 2
thefooloftheyear Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I just can't help but thhink that if it's a situation where someone feels noe desire to ever have sex with ther partner ( baring some sort of medical issue) and the other spouse is at a point where they feel they need to cheat to get their needs met and are issuin ultimatums, then what is the point of stayin g married anyway.? What kind of marriage is that? Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but..... The "point" of staying married may be for the stability of the children, the prevention pf financial collapse of the household, the resultant embarrassment and shame brought about by being divorced...etc...heck, it may even be that everything outside of the bedroom is actually all good...There are a myriad of reasons.. Men compartmentalize these things better than women can...Its not right and we all know it...It just becomes a "survival" tactic or the lesser of evils, I suppose... TFY 1
truncated Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 So I want to pose a question for the group - - since so many think that he should divorce her and he hasn't, should she divorce him? Should she be obligated to divorce him since she didn't want to have intimate relationship with him instead of making him frustrated and putting pressure on her and ultimately having infidelity in the marriage? If he should divorce instead of cheat, Should she divorce instead of deny intimacy? Should she be held accountable for not leaving him before things got to this stage? Yes or no? Why or why not? Assuming that the situation is 100% the way it's described, then yes, she should have sat down with himand explained her point of view, and, as a couple, they should determine what the next steps will be. If that's counseling, trying new things together, trying to figure out why the perosn isn't interested in sex, whatever. If that doesn't work and the "withholder" still doesn't wnat sex or intimacy, then it's best to part ways before they end up resenting and even hating each other. My problem is that the reasons the "withholder" doesnlt wnat sex are being left out of the equation, as is her whole side to the story. She's being vilianized. She could very well be withholding sex unfairly, but there could also be a whole lot more going on. 1
elaine567 Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 A woman who brings up her feelings and problems can be dismissed as "nagging". It's in the societal script. THis can lead to resentment building in wives, especially after the babies arrive (new parents are navigating a stress and resentment minefield). And resentment kills women's sexual attraction. This ^^^^^
elaine567 Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 My problem is that the reasons the "withholder" doesnlt wnat sex are being left out of the equation, as is her whole side to the story. She's being vilianized. She could very well be withholding sex unfairly, but there could also be a whole lot more going on. ...and this ^^^^^
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I don't justify withholding sex anymore than I justify affairs. What do you think of when you hear the word "nag"? A man or a woman? A woman who brings up her feelings and problems can be dismissed as "nagging". It's in the societal script. THis can lead to resentment building in wives, especially after the babies arrive (new parents are navigating a stress and resentment minefield). And resentment kills women's sexual attraction. I think you are right that a certain resentment or enmity has crept in to her for whatever reason- again just judging by the vibe that I pick up when I am there. They were the most un-coupley couple, very little physical interaction. Both have to take the blame for that, what I will say though is that my friend is a very warm person by nature so this distance between them seems more against his nature than hers. Im not saying shes a cold fish, but her insularity means that things seem a lot more to her way of operating than they do to my friends. But I still don't see how a womans perception of herself should preclude her from being very vocal about the marriage not livjng up to her expectations, especially if she is desparate to save it. With this particular situation she claims to have seen nothing wrong. Of course, she wouldnt have seen anything wrong because she doesnt care about sex or lack of intimacy- she sees the family as being the point of their existence together. He is projecting her own ambitions on to him thinking that because she is satisfied with no sex or intimacy and the solitary goal of raising a well adjusted child in a family unit then that is all he cares about too. Its long been a bugbear of mine that a lot of couples lose their own identity when they have kids and they neglect to take care of themselves and retain some ambition in their own lives and effectively make the child their ambitikn and future. My friends wife is very much like this however my friend still has that individualty about him, he cares about his own life and his future still quite aside from his role as the family man and I think that is fuelling their disconnect, certainly when she assumes that he wants exactly what she wants. 1
truncated Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 How often do women explain this stuff though? I am only now hearing about lack of connection (rather than just lack of attraction) with their partner. If the witholder sits the other partner down and has a frank discussion and offers solutions then fair enough. However it seems from what I read on here and hear IRL that the standard reaction is for sex to dwindle and nothing is said, the other partner is shut out and confused and the witholder knows full well what is going on and consciousky does not confront it because the status quo of little to no sex suits their purpose. Confronting it results in tough decisions having to be made and a challenge to the comfort zone that the witholder has created. I must admit the scenario above seems to most commonly play out where the witholder is having an affair and sees their sex drive as the property of their AP rather than their spouse. In those threads you never hear about any frank discussion taking place, just that one partner lets their commitment dwindle until its once a month duty sex. If there are problems then surely its the domain of the party with the issue to discuss their problems-- or maybe judging by the way this thread is going its the problem of the other partner for daring to have a sex drive and still finding the partner they married attractive? If you read in the infidelity section, many people who cheat don;t sit down and discus stheir issues with their spouse, especially regrading sex. Yes, it may be uncomfortable to talk about it, and it might bring tears and sadness, and even hurt the feelings of the person with the lower sex drive, but which do you think is more hurtful to hear? - honey, I love you and I wnat to have more sex with you, but you aren't interested and i's hurting me deeply. Something needs to chnage, so what can we do to make things better? or - honey, I;m so sorry I've been cheating on you as for the spouse with lower interest speaking up, I think they should I really do. The problem is, especially for women, many are sublty taught that it will really wound a man's ego to be told that their spouse isn't interested in sex with them, and that they should feel guilty for not wanting to have sex and it's al their own fault if they don't. yes, sometimes it is all their own fault, but it can also be a whole lot more complicated than simply "I don't want to"
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but..... The "point" of staying married may be for the stability of the children, the prevention pf financial collapse of the household, the resultant embarrassment and shame brought about by being divorced...etc...heck, it may even be that everything outside of the bedroom is actually all good...There are a myriad of reasons.. Men compartmentalize these things better than women can...Its not right and we all know it...It just becomes a "survival" tactic or the lesser of evils, I suppose... TFY Thats exactly it- she wants the family unit and is willing to scrifice her happiness in life for a stable environment for the child. If it wasnt for the kid she wouldnt still be there and neither would he. Which is a very sad indictment on their relationship, that the spark between them has gone and its all about the kid. She is being very selfish in not clarifying with him that he is willing to make the same sacrifice. She should have sat him down a long time ago and told him that she doesnt find him attractive snymore but does he still want to stay with her (with no sex or access to it externally) and raise the kid? I wonder what man would sign up for that?
truncated Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I don't justify withholding sex anymore than I justify affairs. What do you think of when you hear the word "nag"? A man or a woman? A woman who brings up her feelings and problems can be dismissed as "nagging". It's in the societal script. THis can lead to resentment building in wives, especially after the babies arrive (new parents are navigating a stress and resentment minefield). And resentment kills women's sexual attraction. Just reading the replies to this thread, I can understand ( but not agree with) why more women don't speak up. Look at the way women who aren't interested in sex are being judged. If she says" I don't feel like hvaing sex because yu are doing, not doing x, y and z" then she is looked down on a sbeing a nag or manipultaive, using sex to get her own way. At any rate, how does one even know if the wife of the guy in the OP 1
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 If you read in the infidelity section, many people who cheat don;t sit down and discus stheir issues with their spouse, especially regrading sex. Yes, it may be uncomfortable to talk about it, and it might bring tears and sadness, and even hurt the feelings of the person with the lower sex drive, but which do you think is more hurtful to hear? - honey, I love you and I wnat to have more sex with you, but you aren't interested and i's hurting me deeply. Something needs to chnage, so what can we do to make things better? or - honey, I;m so sorry I've been cheating on you as for the spouse with lower interest speaking up, I think they should I really do. The problem is, especially for women, many are sublty taught that it will really wound a man's ego to be told that their spouse isn't interested in sex with them, and that they should feel guilty for not wanting to have sex and it's al their own fault if they don't. yes, sometimes it is all their own fault, but it can also be a whole lot more complicated than simply "I don't want to" Excuses, I'm afraid. We are talking about marriage here not a first date in high school. This affects daily life for the forseeable future so quite frankly any woman who hides behind some sort of misguided fear makes them a coward. "Oh honey you know when I went off sex all that time ago and you havent been laid in over 3 years, well it was all cus I was really scared I might hurt and emascualte you by talking about it, so in the end I said nothing". In fact if this is how women truly think then no wonder my friends relatiknship is in the state its in.
truncated Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 btw, this is an interesting conversation, lots of different points of view
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 Just reading the replies to this thread, I can understand ( but not agree with) why more women don't speak up. Look at the way women who aren't interested in sex are being judged. If she says" I don't feel like hvaing sex because yu are doing, not doing x, y and z" then she is looked down on a sbeing a nag or manipultaive, using sex to get her own way. At any rate, how does one even know if the wife of the guy in the OP What a convenient way to absolve women of the responsibility of fixing the issues they have have in there head that their partner does not know about. Perhaps its all the mans fault for not being a mind reader?
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) What a convenient way to absolve women of the responsibility of fixing the issues they have have in there head that their partner does not know about. Perhaps its all the mans fault for not being a mind reader? Often the woman tries to express her unhappiness many times over, and is dismissed as nagging. What is "nagging"? Why is that even a word? When a wife is dismissed as nagging, it feels similar to sex being denied. It is a dismissal of need. Edited January 2, 2015 by xxoo 2
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 Often the woman tries to express her unhappiness many times over, and is dismissed as nagging. What is "nagging"? Why is that even a word? When a wife is dismissed as nagging, it feels similar to sex being denied. It is a dismissal of need. How is it exoressed? I can only soeak for myself, but if my (imaginary!) wife came to me and said the reason we are not having sex is because of x y and z then I would at least sit up and listen very closely. I struggle to believe that other men would not pay similar attention and given the way women like to be very indirect about how they feel can only imagine a lot of dmthis dissatisifaction manifests itself in very subtle ways that are not at all clear to the husband. Again I think it comes down to an abdication of responsibility. If the witholder has an issue with physical intimacy they need to spit it out ASAP. They have the issue and they know the extent of it so they have the responsibility to bring it to the table and be blunt about it. Whatever haopens from there is a joint decision. To carry on regardless is the worst thing possible as resentment grows. 1
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 How is it exoressed? I can only soeak for myself, but if my (imaginary!) wife came to me and said the reason we are not having sex is because of x y and z then I would at least sit up and listen very closely. I struggle to believe that other men would not pay similar attention and given the way women like to be very indirect about how they feel can only imagine a lot of dmthis dissatisifaction manifests itself in very subtle ways that are not at all clear to the husband. It's not a one-to-one relationship: you did this/I don't want sex. It's typically more like needs OUTSIDE the bedroom are expressed and dismissed, resentment grows in the woman, as resentment grows desire shrinks, and at some point the man is noticing that his own (sexual) needs are being unmet. At that point the wife's needs may have gone unmet for a LONG time (expressed and dismissed ages ago). 2
autumnnight Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Bottom line, people who withhold sex, in general, think that sex isn't important. And since it isn't important to THEM, then their spouse should get over it. The percentage of people who are so sickly and disabled that they cannot even give their spouse manual relief is so small it's not really even worth talking about. And we do all sorts of things our partner needs even when we don't "feel like it" based on wanting to do the right thing or caring about our spouse or because we know our spouse thinks it is important. I do not know of a single person who, if the withholding spouse sat them down and said "I would feel closer and want more intimacy if your would do X", would not at least TRY to make that happen. It comes down to whether we think our spouse is important. If we do, then we will at least TRY to meet their needs, even if they aren't OUR needs. If a spouse will not do this, it does NOT justify cheating. It does, however, say a lot about their character. 2
elaine567 Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 How is it exoressed? I can only soeak for myself, but if my (imaginary!) wife came to me and said the reason we are not having sex is because of x y and z then I would at least sit up and listen very closely. The problem is that resentment doesn't tend to lead to expression, it tends to lead to bottling up emotions and the lack of sex is a symptom, not the problem itself, as seen by the wife. She is not going to bring up sex as a topic, she is going to say things like "you never change the nappies" and "why is it all my responsibility" and "why are you going to the pub again leaving me to look after the kids?" If he doesn't listen or is "busy", then she stores it all in her mind and the resentment builds. It is interesting that you bring up his "individuality" being retained. This highlights the difference between them, he retains his individuality, whereas her individuality gets swallowed up by the maternal role, another cause of resentment perhaps... Resentment (also called ranklement or bitterness) is the experience of a negative emotion (anger or hatred, for instance) felt as a result of a real or imagined wrong done.
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 It comes down to whether we think our spouse is important. If we do, then we will at least TRY to meet their needs, even if they aren't OUR needs. I agree with this. And not meeting needs is a major reason that women lose sexual desire. It's all interrelated.
thefooloftheyear Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Bottom line, people who withhold sex, in general, think that sex isn't important. And since it isn't important to THEM, then their spouse should get over it. The percentage of people who are so sickly and disabled that they cannot even give their spouse manual relief is so small it's not really even worth talking about. And we do all sorts of things our partner needs even when we don't "feel like it" based on wanting to do the right thing or caring about our spouse or because we know our spouse thinks it is important. I do not know of a single person who, if the withholding spouse sat them down and said "I would feel closer and want more intimacy if your would do X", would not at least TRY to make that happen. It comes down to whether we think our spouse is important. If we do, then we will at least TRY to meet their needs, even if they aren't OUR needs. If a spouse will not do this, it does NOT justify cheating. It does, however, say a lot about their character. Oh....They are out there.....In droves... I know many men who no longer are intimate with their wives because they have put on a lot of weight-or have let themselves go.......Its never pleasant-especially for a man-to bring this stuff up without being called mean or uncaring...but they really dont ever do anything about it...so the rug sweeping just continues.. So what does that guy do, then?? Blow up his life over it??, or shut his mouth and be a good Indian?? TFY 1
autumnnight Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I agree with this. And not meeting needs is a major reason that women lose sexual desire. It's all interrelated. I agree. And if a woman is not having her needs met, perhaps it is because the man is starved for intimacy. So who goes first? At some point, instead of saying "I can't do this because they won't do that," someone has to care enough about the marriage to go first. Or care enough about the other person to set them free. Look, I know what it is like to have NO desire for someone who has horribly neglected me. But I have to say, it never entered my mind that they should just "get over it" and we should both be content in a terrible marriage. So once either spouse stops trying and thinks the OTHER person's actions justify theirs, there are problems. Sex is a legitimate need and can only be met by a spouse. Isn't withholding that knowingly and blaming the other spouse the same kind of thinking as cheating and them blaming the spouse? Unless of course we are back to the thinking that sex is not important and the only betrayal that matters is infidelity. 2
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I agree. And if a woman is not having her needs met, perhaps it is because the man is starved for intimacy. So who goes first? At some point, instead of saying "I can't do this because they won't do that," someone has to care enough about the marriage to go first. Or care enough about the other person to set them free. Look, I know what it is like to have NO desire for someone who has horribly neglected me. But I have to say, it never entered my mind that they should just "get over it" and we should both be content in a terrible marriage. So once either spouse stops trying and thinks the OTHER person's actions justify theirs, there are problems. Sex is a legitimate need and can only be met by a spouse. Isn't withholding that knowingly and blaming the other spouse the same kind of thinking as cheating and them blaming the spouse? Unless of course we are back to the thinking that sex is not important and the only betrayal that matters is infidelity. It's not about justification, just explaining the two sides of unmet needs. I think both spouses in this example absolutely suck at relationship skills. But no, I don't think withholding sex is the same as cheating. The same as cheating would be cheating, ie. dating another man to fulfill the non-sexual intimate needs that the husband has withheld. Some women do have affairs for exactly that reason (not so much for the sex, but the attention care they are not getting from their spouse). As for who goes first--I think marriage counseling would be a first step if it has come to neither partner wanting to put the other first. 1
regine_phalange Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Both partners didn't play a fair game... As an outsider I consider them "even". I highly disapprove of cheating, but the manipulative motives or the avoidance of the person who's withholding sex are equally disrespectful. 2
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