Author insert_name Posted January 1, 2015 Author Posted January 1, 2015 Oh there are always other choices. I'm just saying if someone knowingly denies their partner and knowingly causes their partner anguish, they waive their expectation of faithfulness. You only have the right to your partner's faithfulness if you are making a good faith effort to meet their needs. If you knowingly choose to not make that good faith effort, then you have no right to bitch if they cheat, if they walk or if they check out of the relationship and they sleep in the guest room and are out with their friends 24/7. The motive in this situation seems to be purely sex, if the wife had put more effort in in that department the affair would not have happened. Nobody should be forced to have sex if they do not want it, but I don't think the wife can absolve herself of any responsibility. If one partner can't match the sexual needs of the other then they have to be part of the search for a solution. From what I understand I think my friend should have been more vocal about where the relationship was heading. She seemed to think that everything was fine with sex once a month. Mind you, in this particular case given how she reacted to the affair and her attitude to sex in general I don't think she would have been any more sympathetic if it had been discussed prior to an affair taking place. He would have been told to put the family first before his needs (easy to stonewall when its not your needs that are the issue) and the option of an open relationship turned down. With this relationship, this outcome seems to have been inevitable.
Maleficent Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 Oh there are always other choices. I'm just saying if someone knowingly denies their partner and knowingly causes their partner anguish, they waive their expectation of faithfulness. You only have the right to your partner's faithfulness if you are making a good faith effort to meet their needs. If you knowingly choose to not make that good faith effort, then you have no right to bitch if they cheat, if they walk or if they check out of the relationship and they sleep in the guest room and are out with their friends 24/7. I so disagree with this. If one person is acting like an immature child, doesn't give the other person white card to do the same. It's called being the bigger person... The only mature way to deal with relationship issues is to fix it or leave it. Anything else lowers you to the level of the other person (general you) People feel so justified to hurt other people because they themselves got hurt and it's just not the way to go. Results are visible on this board every day. 4
autumnnight Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 I so disagree with this. If one person is acting like an immature child, doesn't give the other person white card to do the same. It's called being the bigger person... The only mature way to deal with relationship issues is to fix it or leave it. Anything else lowers you to the level of the other person (general you) People feel so justified to hurt other people because they themselves got hurt and it's just not the way to go. Results are visible on this board every day. Exactly. If someone is selfish and immature enough to deny a spouse one of the fundamental needs of marriage, don't compound the issue by becoming a cheater in response. 3
Author insert_name Posted January 1, 2015 Author Posted January 1, 2015 Exactly. If someone is selfish and immature enough to deny a spouse one of the fundamental needs of marriage, don't compound the issue by becoming a cheater in response. Turning the other cheek is all very noble, however denial of intimacy and refusal to entertain compromise is so ignorant and low that in a relationship where the denying spouse holds a weak hand (ie they are already lacking commitment to the marriage in other areas) going outside the marriage to have intimate needs met seems fair game so long as the denying spouse is aware thst there is an issue and what the potential consequences are. I personally don't think its acceptable for one partner to hold the others sex drive under lock and key when they have such little regard for what it is that they hold in their hands. In my opinion when they do that with so little care then they lose the right for any moral judgement on the denied partner and the denied partner should be able to carry on in good conscience. I am not trying to say that two wrongs make a right in this instance, as they don't, but the question for the denied spouse is not 'am I doing something wrong?' But rather 'if I care about the marriage, how does my search for intimate gratification outside the marriage affect the survival of it?'
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 Nobody should be forced to have sex if they do not want it, but I don't think the wife can absolve herself of any responsibility. If one partner can't match the sexual needs of the other then they have to be part of the search for a solution. . I agree. Both parties have an obligation to try to find some common ground and a solution. The frustrated party also has a responsibility to make their needs known and to make the other party aware of the seriousness of the situation. The point I was making above was in regards to the people that thumb their nose at the other persons needs and blow them off as silly and trivial and essentially disregarding their partner's needs. 1
BetrayedH Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 Oh there are always other choices. I'm just saying if someone knowingly denies their partner and knowingly causes their partner anguish, they waive their expectation of faithfulness. You only have the right to your partner's faithfulness if you are making a good faith effort to meet their needs. If you knowingly choose to not make that good faith effort, then you have no right to bitch if they cheat, if they walk or if they check out of the relationship and they sleep in the guest room and are out with their friends 24/7. I agree with all of this except the cheating part in the last paragraph. Other options would be putting down an ultimatum or even announcing that the marriage is now open. What's not needed is a bunch of lying and deceptively keeping one person married while the other plays single. If people feel so strongly about the sexless marriage, stand up and own your position. Don't be a lying coward about it and then blame the other person for you being a lying coward. 1
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 I so disagree with this. If one person is acting like an immature child, doesn't give the other person white card to do the same. It's called being the bigger person... The only mature way to deal with relationship issues is to fix it or leave it. Anything else lowers you to the level of the other person (general you) People feel so justified to hurt other people because they themselves got hurt and it's just not the way to go. Results are visible on this board every day. I understand your point. However I don't think that a lot of denying spouses are acting like immature children. I think they are acting like knowledgable adults that understand the ramifications of their actions but choose to do them anyway. They choose that route because they have lost attraction, respect and desire for they but feel entitled to their spouses continued support, love, companionship and fidelity anyway. My point is not on the rightness or wrongness of infidelity and I am not saying that infidelity is justified or excused. I am saying if they are aware of their partner's needs and frustrations but knowingly chooses to deny them, then they are no longer entitled to anything of those things and have no claim to their partner's fidelity any more. If their partner chooses to cheat, that is on them and they incur whatever ramifications the cheating brings. But the denying partner has no reason to think that it will not occur and has no right to point fingers.
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 I agree with all of this except the cheating part in the last paragraph. Other options would be putting down an ultimatum or even announcing that the marriage is now open. What's not needed is a bunch of lying and deceptively keeping one person married while the other plays single. If people feel so strongly about the sexless marriage, stand up and own your position. Don't be a lying coward about it and then blame the other person for you being a lying coward. I don't disagree with you. I think if a lot of people stood up and took that position and were actually ready, willing and able to carry it out, there would be less cheating in the world. And as I have said ad nauseum, I am not advocating cheating or saying it is right or is a solution or that it is the right choice. - I am saying if someone is denying their spouse - it is to be expected. People should not expect that their spouse will jump through hoops and crawl through broken glass to "work things out" for an eternity and nor should they expect their spouse to follow all the proper steps before presenting them with divorce papers. They should expect that they will get their needs met one way or another and they may not like or agree with how they do it. 1
wish-i-knew Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 My point is not on the rightness or wrongness of infidelity and I am not saying that infidelity is justified or excused. I am saying if they are aware of their partner's needs and frustrations but knowingly chooses to deny them, then they are no longer entitled to anything of those things and have no claim to their partner's fidelity any more. I agree. I don't think cheating is justifiable, but I do think it is understandable. If you have tried and tried to "fix things" and you get nowhere, I think you end up on a very slippery slope, and people who would never even consider cheating, end up cheating, because it seems like an immediate solution to an otherwise insurmountable problem. 1
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 let me put it this way.... if I neglect my wife and tell her that I don't need any love'n and don't need any sex and there for she should just live without it. I have no expectation that she will remain involuntarily celibate forever just because I'm not in the mood and don't feel like lifting a finger. If she makes a sincere attempt to address her concerns and I turn my nose up at her and tell her she's too horny and too focused on sex and that since I don't need it, she shouldn't need it either - do I have the right to be pissed and call her a slut and treat her badly if she get's it elsewhere? For those of you saying she should just leave, I understand what you are saying and you have a point, people probably "Should" do that, but it's just a reality that people don't. As people don't actually do it as a general rule, I have no reason to expect her to do it either. I would have to expect her to cheat at some point if I intentionally deny her. She may cheat on her way out and she may eventually leave but I would have no reason to expect her remain celibate until we were conveniently separated and living separate lives and the ink on the final divorce decree was dry. That is simply unrealistic. 1
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 OK and so here's a question for all of you singing to the chorus of "people should leave and not cheat." - - how many of these denying spouses are going to say, "oh ok, where do I need to sign?" when all these frustrated spouses announce their departure??? How many of these people are going to agree to a cooperative, amicable divorce and sit down and cooperatively and fairly divide up the assets and mutually agree upon all the childcare and custody issues and agree to fair and reasonable child support and graciously agree to ask for any kind of spousal support or anything like that. So in other words if Insert-Name's buddy had come to his wife and said he didn't want to remain in the marriage anymore, would his wife have said, "OK lets sit down and calmly and rationally work out a mutually agreed upon coparenting plan and find a way for both of us to move on as smoothly and equitably as possible"? Let's have a vote shall we? Who here thinks she would have smiled a big ol' grin and gave him a big hug and then sat down to graciously work out an amicable divorce plan for divorcing her because he was sexually dissatisfied?? Let's have a show of hands for who thinks she would do that. And lets have a show of hands for the people who think she would have been enraged and would have done everything in her power to filet him and disembowel him in court and would have slandered his name all over town for leaving her to go chase his dick. How many think that may be the more realistic scenario that would have played out?? 2
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 My point here is, those of you saying that people should just leave aren't being realistic and looking at the true picture. I am sure there are some instances where the denying party would be glad to get rid of them and would not fight a divorce or make it difficult. But for every one of those there is probably a hundred that would be enraged and would dedicate their lives to making the divorce as difficult and bloody as possible. There are some people that deny their spouses that have truly fallen out of love with their partner and are truly ok with them packing their stuff and moving on. But most are so entitled and do self-centered and all about what their frustrated spouse will do for them, that they are enraged that they dare think about leaving just because they aren't getting all the poontang they want. I'd be more willing to join the chorus and sing, "leave, don't cheat" too if the denying partners were cooperative and fair but most aren't. Most are just as cold and cruel and entitled in divorce as there were in marriage. 3
Almond_Joy Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 The latter situation seems the most realistic. Why wouldn't the wife fight to keep this situation? Realistically, a lot of people are not going to want to deal with all that and wait for all of it to end to get their needs met. Most of the time, if one's reached the point of infidelity or separation, they've done just about all the waiting they're willing to do. 1
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 OK and so here's a question for all of you singing to the chorus of "people should leave and not cheat." - - how many of these denying spouses are going to say, "oh ok, where do I need to sign?" when all these frustrated spouses announce their departure??? How many of these people are going to agree to a cooperative, amicable divorce and sit down and cooperatively and fairly divide up the assets and mutually agree upon all the childcare and custody issues and agree to fair and reasonable child support and graciously agree to ask for any kind of spousal support or anything like that. So in other words if Insert-Name's buddy had come to his wife and said he didn't want to remain in the marriage anymore, would his wife have said, "OK lets sit down and calmly and rationally work out a mutually agreed upon coparenting plan and find a way for both of us to move on as smoothly and equitably as possible"? Let's have a vote shall we? Who here thinks she would have smiled a big ol' grin and gave him a big hug and then sat down to graciously work out an amicable divorce plan for divorcing her because he was sexually dissatisfied?? Let's have a show of hands for who thinks she would do that. And lets have a show of hands for the people who think she would have been enraged and would have done everything in her power to filet him and disembowel him in court and would have slandered his name all over town for leaving her to go chase his dick. How many think that may be the more realistic scenario that would have played out?? My friend told me something very telling - that in the recent past it came up in conversation that if they did ever split then she couldnt be bothered with finding a new relationship, thats not in the 'I couldnt find anyone like you' sense but rather that she had no need of a relationship with a man if this one failed. To me this seems like a huge red flag that she has no investment in relationships anymore. Its no wonder that the sex dried up, shes only in the relationship with my friend for the family unit that it provides for the child. She doesnt have any desire for a man in her life and considers that she would be fine without it were they to split. So the chances are you are right that any attempt to discuss the situation pre-affair would have fallen on deaf ears. Not that that absolves my friend of course. I find it quite galling how she has changed the parameters of the relationship to suit her own cold fish purposes with little care for how it affects the other partner. And then she has the nerve to call him immature. I hope he leaves ASAP.
oldshirt Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 The latter situation seems the most realistic. Why wouldn't the wife fight to keep this situation? Realistically, a lot of people are not going to want to deal with all that and wait for all of it to end to get their needs met. Most of the time, if one's reached the point of infidelity or separation, they've done just about all the waiting they're willing to do. Yup. In situations like the one being addressed in this thread, it's not like she was tired and turned him down on Friday and by Sunday evening he had a GF without saying a word to his wife. She had been giving him the cold shoulder for 4 years. If she had rolled out the red carpet to divorce him and give him that option, he may have taken it. Instead she dangled a carrot in front of his place and made excuses and said she'd "work on it" when he complained and then continued to wring out whatever support and resources she could from him and then blew a gasket and layed down even more hoops and hurdles and rules for him after she busted him banging some other chick. Personally I think he's a dumbazz for even trying to stay and that is probably largely guilt. Once that wears off he'll probably come to his senses and decide he's finally had enough.
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Did he at least stop having sex with his wife for the duration of the affair?
oldshirt Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Yup. then continued to wring out whatever support and resources she could from him and then blew a gasket and layed down even more hoops and hurdles and rules for him after she busted him banging some other chick. . So here is another point for those saying, "Leave-don't-Cheat!" Considering she didn't divorce him when she busted him cheating. What on earth makes you think should would have divorced him cooperatively and peacefully without the cheating??????? What makes you think that "leaving" would be any easier and any more peaceful and less traumatic than cheating?????
oldshirt Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Did he at least stop having sex with his wife for the duration of the affair? He didn't have to. she did that a loooooooonnnnnnggggggg time ago.
bachdude Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to be in a relationship harbouring a huge guilty secret. I'd much rather live without sex. Obviously for some less difficult than living without emotional and physical intimacy in a marriage.
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 Obviously for some less difficult than living without emotional and physical intimacy in a marriage. I think its totally understandable that people have differrnt perspectives on this, probably based on the severity of sex in importance to them. If I were in that situation my wife putting my balls in her purse and then closing the clasp would be a massive act of disrespect which I would not put up with. 99% of the time I am not an 'eye for an eye' kind of person but in a situation like this where my wife was knowingly trying to control my sex drive without compromise and hiding behind the vows of marriage in order to ensure that control then I would have no qualms about fighting fire with fire by seeking it elsewhere whilst still in the marriage. That sort of devious action does not demand a devious response but can have no complaints if such a response ends up forthcoming.
oldshirt Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 . To me this seems like a huge red flag that she has no investment in relationships anymore. Its no wonder that the sex dried up, shes only in the relationship with my friend for the family unit that it provides for the child. She doesnt have any desire for a man in her life and considers that she would be fine without it were they to split. . correction : she's in it for what it provides for HER. this is all part of the process. She was in it for the child and for resources and a roof over her head and food on the table and a place to keep her stuff. your buddy is just the sap that fell for it and foots the bill. Otherwise she would have left him and the fact that she kept him after he got caught cheating and she became even more vile and demanding is even more telling. She will eventually find someone else and cheat herself and will leave him and just collect his child support when she finds someone "better." Right now she is just making a power play to wring as much out of him as she can and is using his guilt and her "moral high ground" to do it. Hopefully your buddy will wise up soon and get a good lawyer. 2
xxoo Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 He didn't have to. she did that a loooooooonnnnnnggggggg time ago. I thought I read that sex was once a month, and I'm wondering if it continued to be once a month during the affair.
oldshirt Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 In cases like this (DISCLAIMER: I AM TALKING ABOUT EXTREME CASES LIKE THIS CASE. NOT GARDEN VARIETY CHEATING WHERE SOMEONE IS JUST AN ASSHAT), cheating serves a purpose regardless of whether people think it is justified or morally reprehensible. For the cheater, they have suffered under the iron hand of deprivation and manipulation so long that having someone else up against them breathes a breath of life into them again that they haven't felt for so long. It makes them realize what is out there and what they have been missing for so long. And it gives them the confidence boost in realizing that someone can feel desire for them again after their self-esteem had been destroyed by their captors. Many cheaters in such situations don't leave for the AP per se after the sht hits the fan. They leave because their night(s) of passion has reminded them what they are missing and what can be out there for them again whether it is with the AP or with someone else. It can also break the strangle hold that the spouse has on them. As the spouse often dangles the pu$$y just out of reach like a carrot, the AP comes along and offers it up on the side thus taking away the Spouses trump card. This case is a perfect example of that. Note how infuriated his wife was when she found out. After all why should she care? If she doesn't want to have sex with him, why was she engaged when someone else gave it to him? Why did she go all strong-arm on him with a whole new list of demands and rules and threats?? It was a power play to put him back under her thumb. Now she has told him it will be years before he has it again if he doesn't comply to her demands. What's going to be happening now is he will be laying in bed alone in the dark with memories of the AP clinging on to him and breathing hot, heavy air into his ear and gasping for more as he pumps it into her. That memory will be burned into is mind and will give him strength and resolve. Cheating also serves a purpose for the BS. It can give them the disdain and disgust they need to finally push them past the breaking point and potentially cut the WS loose after all. They have had a lack of respect and lack of desire for years but have continued to condem themselves to a passionless existence also in an effort to keep the other benefits of the marriage. Remember if the denier is not getting it on the side themselves, they are also in a sexless marriage. The infidelity can at times give them the incentive they need to pull the plug and sht and get off the pot and move on with their lives as well. 2
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 I thought I read that sex was once a month, and I'm wondering if it continued to be once a month during the affair. It was once a month, I don't know whether that then completely stopped and the affair started.
Author insert_name Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 correction : she's in it for what it provides for HER. this is all part of the process. She was in it for the child and for resources and a roof over her head and food on the table and a place to keep her stuff. your buddy is just the sap that fell for it and foots the bill. Otherwise she would have left him and the fact that she kept him after he got caught cheating and she became even more vile and demanding is even more telling. She will eventually find someone else and cheat herself and will leave him and just collect his child support when she finds someone "better." Right now she is just making a power play to wring as much out of him as she can and is using his guilt and her "moral high ground" to do it. Hopefully your buddy will wise up soon and get a good lawyer. Its all one and the same really- her needs are what the kid wants, she is living vicariously through the child so a family unit is the main priority. She is certainly not staying through any desire for my friend. My friend is also not staying through any desire. Its so depressing, its actually putting me off kids myself. I know most couoles don't descend into this sort of nonsense but I don't even wsnt to take the risk that I will be trapped in a loveless relationship with a wife who mentally checked out and is beyond recovery and have to stagnate in that environment in order to raise a child.
Recommended Posts