central Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Cheating is wrong, but so is denying your spouse sex. I see them as equally bad from a moral perspective. If one person breaks the marriage vows by denying sex, the other is free to break them to redress the imbalance. Yes, better to divorce and move on, but that's not always the best solution. Marriage and lives are very complex and intertwined, so simple answers seldom suffice. 1
salparadise Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Cheating is wrong, but so is denying your spouse sex. I see them as equally bad from a moral perspective. If one person breaks the marriage vows by denying sex, the other is free to break them to redress the imbalance. Yes, better to divorce and move on, but that's not always the best solution. Marriage and lives are very complex and intertwined, so simple answers seldom suffice. Well said for the most part, but with regard to the bolded sentence I don't think it's quite that simple. Replace "free" with "more justified" and I think it's a better statement. And of course the denying of sex would have to be significantly unjustified as well. 1
salparadise Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Let's say a wife doesn;t wnat to ahve sex becuase her hsuabnd treats her badly, or treats sex like it's just for his own pleasre while ignoring hers. She does talk to him about it, but nothing changes. She continues to try to get through to him, but he won't listen. It's no longer an expression of love, partnership and caring, but more a sign of how he refuses to listen to her and care about how she feels. I acknowledge that relationships are complex and there can be extenuating circumstances, but... you sound like someone who is denying sex to their spouse and making these arguments out of a need to feel justified yourself. Are you a woman? Are you using denial of sex to express dissatisfaction? What I hear you saying is that if a woman feels that all is not perfect in her world and she can rationalize a way to put the blame on the husband, or if "he's just not the super stud he'd like to think he is," then it's perfectly reasonable that she'd cut him off as a way of expressing dissatisfaction, keeping him in line, issuing corrections as in operant conditioning or dog training or something. So I'm calling Bull$hit on the teeny-weeny justifications for why denial of sex might be appropriate.
elaine567 Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Hes definitely brought it up in the past as its been an issue before, when she first went off sex after giving birth they had a row because she had an issue with him using pornography as a replacement, so she knew it was a problem way back then. My guess is that she was there feeling like a beached whale, and he was "cheating" on her with internet porn, her insecurity grows, her self esteem takes a tumble, her resentment grows... She has the baby, is he hands on? Or is he sleeping soundly while she does all the work? Her resentment grows... It is very easy to nurture a relationship, women like to feel safe, cosy and warm, respected and loved, before they want to have a good sexual relationship, with their husband. Many have grown up to be "princesses", their children are everything, it is all about cuteness, beauty and love. That may be a bit Disneyfied, but some woman want that bit of romance in their lives. Internet porn, with its gang banging and sluts, and now a fullblown affair, do not fit into that romantic remit. So "the prince" turns into someone who is seen as shameful and dirty, not someone loving and tender - that is why sex is then off the menu... Her resentment grows...
autumnnight Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Cheating is wrong, but so is denying your spouse sex. I see them as equally bad from a moral perspective. If one person breaks the marriage vows by denying sex, the other is free to break them to redress the imbalance. Yes, better to divorce and move on, but that's not always the best solution. Marriage and lives are very complex and intertwined, so simple answers seldom suffice. I do not think one wrong (denying intimacy) makes it okay to commit another wrong (cheating). But here's the thing. When someone talks about their sexless marriage and cheating, they are always told "you should just leave/should have just left." If your spouse is treating you so badly that your only option is to force celibacy on them...then YOU should just leave. 6
Maleficent Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 My friend's affair finally got exposed just after Christmas. According to him he and his wife have hardly had sex since their only child was born 4 years ago. Having the child seemed to put her right off of sex. My friend also has a high sex drive so whilst he undoubtedly was in the wrong for cheating I thought she would not be surprised to find this out and it would blow over quickly for the sake of the kid, the main thing being that she found out 'behind closed doors' so there was no public losing of face involved. But it appears she has really gone off the deep end like it was totally unexpected and all the blame is being put on him, this I find really surprising. She has known him.long enough to know how high his sex drive is, did she really think he was just going to sit there politely and accept that he was hardly ever going to have sex again and just be happy with that? To me this is a big white elephant in the room and as a married couple its both their job to tackle it and come to a compromise early on- this was obviously not done. Undoubtedly he should have left before committing the affair, so has to accept most of the blame but I don't think her naievety is an excuse for her part in going off sex and blindly carrying on thinking everything was going to be tickety boo. So I feel bad for him in the sense that he has no say in whatever happens from here and is the bad guy because she holds the moral high ground, when she has to admit that she had no interest in whether his needs were met. So I am interested in what the female POV is on this? If you went off sex how would you deal with this in regard to your husband's sex drive? Keep in mind I haven't read the entire thread here but I want to say; yes, that man is entirely to blame. He chose to have an affair. I don't believe in this whole 'but my partner and I haven't had sex in weeks/months/year and I'm soooo hornyyy!' People often try to justify their actions by finding reasons to blame the other person or at least make them responsible in a way but the truth is there are other and and much better ways to deal with a situation like this. What he chose to do (in this case, cheating) is on him. 3
elaine567 Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 yes, that man is entirely to blame. He chose to have an affair. I don't believe in this whole 'but my partner and I haven't had sex in weeks/months/year and I'm soooo hornyyy!' People often try to justify their actions by finding reasons to blame the other person or at least make them responsible in a way but the truth is there are other and and much better ways to deal with a situation like this. What he chose to do (in this case, cheating) is on him. This in bold ^^^ It is well known that cheaters try to rewrite history to justify their cheating. "denial is one of the coping mechanisms that cheating men use to mentally make it okay to cheat, rewriting history and blaming their partners shouldn’t come as much of a surprise. When cheaters rewrite history and blame everything on their partners there’s even less that they have to deny. Men who are cheating will try anything to avoid taking responsibility for their wrong behavior, and re-writing history and blaming others is one of the best ways to do that.." Why Do Men Cheat & Blame Their Partner 3
Snaggletooth Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to be in a relationship harbouring a huge guilty secret. I'd much rather live without sex. Agreed. I'd rather cut my dick off than either cheat or walk out on a wife and split a family. Their wants and needs are placed above the trivialities of my pecker. 1
Author insert_name Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Keep in mind I haven't read the entire thread here but I want to say; yes, that man is entirely to blame. He chose to have an affair. I don't believe in this whole 'but my partner and I haven't had sex in weeks/months/year and I'm soooo hornyyy!' People often try to justify their actions by finding reasons to blame the other person or at least make them responsible in a way but the truth is there are other and and much better ways to deal with a situation like this. What he chose to do (in this case, cheating) is on him. There are ways of handling it better. But the signs were there that there were problems and she has willfully ignored them. I think the denial not only of sex, but the denial of human being's needs just because you dont feel like fulfilling them is also an issue that has to be addressed and putting your hands over your ears and going "lalalalala everything is tickety boo" because you are fine with a cuddle and a kiss on the cheek before bed is absolutely not a valid approach to take. From what I hear she literally thinks hes immature for wanting to have sex more than once a month and thinks that because she doesnt have any desire for sex that its acceptable for him to live without it as well. So not only is she denying him sex, she is denying that he has any needs at all on the basis that she has no sex drive! The cynical part of me thinks that she was of course happy to have sex while she was trying to conceive and now that is mission accomplished she has got what she wants and now can let herself go into a slow decline. Whenever I go round and visit she seems to be very insular and quiet, has no real opinion on anything and is pre-occupied with playing with the child or watching TV. She leaves the house to go to work or to the shops and thats about it. My friend says that in recent months he has tried to build some bridges by offering for his mum to babysit so they can go to the cinema or to a restaurant but this is always rejected with the stock response of "we can't afford it". She seems to have lost any passion for life that she may have had (and she didnt have a great deal of that even before they were married, she has always been incredibly withdrawn which is what makes them such an odd couple as he is quite an outgoing, funny character ). I can see why she is staying even though she probably needs a clean break as she needs to start doing something with her life. She comes across like she has given up on her own happiness so by staying nothing will really change for her and its the path of least resistance. She is freed from any intimacy obligations and gets to keep a family unit together for the kid- bringing up the child is her only ambition now so she will sacrifice her happiness for that. The funny thing is her telling my friend that hes lucky she is staying! The only card she is holding that makes him lucky is an acrimonious battle over visitation rights. He has offered an open relationship, which she has denied. So if he chooses to stay he will effectively be agreeing that he will not have sex for a very long time, if at all and will face an uphill battle to win her over again which she has already told him is likely to take years and in blunt terms does not seem worth the trouble considering how things were before. They both need to be brave enough to move on so they can get their lives back. If she stays she will stagnate and drag him down with her. Edited December 31, 2014 by insert_name
autumnnight Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Agreed. I'd rather cut my dick off than either cheat or walk out on a wife and split a family. Their wants and needs are placed above the trivialities of my pecker. Again, this is why people dying on the inside from lack of intimacy eventually consider sharing their pain not worth it. "Trivialities of my pecker." nice
CALOVELY Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 There are ways of handling it better. But the signs were there that there were problems and she has willfully ignored them. I think the denial not only of sex, but the denial of human being's needs just because you dont feel like fulfilling them is also an issue that has to be addressed and putting your hands over your ears and going "lalalalala everything is tickety boo" because you are fine with a cuddle and a kiss on the cheek before bed is absolutely not a valid approach to take. From what I hear she literally thinks hes immature for wanting to have sex more than once a month and thinks that because she doesnt have any desire for sex that its acceptable for him to live without it as well. So not only is she denying him sex, she is denying that he has any needs at all on the basis that she has no sex drive! The cynical part of me thinks that she was of course happy to have sex while she was trying to conceive and now that is mission accomplished she has got what she wants and now can let herself go into a slow decline. Whenever I go round and visit she seems to be very insular and quiet, has no real opinion on anything and is pre-occupied with playing with the child or watching TV. She leaves the house to go to work or to the shops and thats about it. My friend says that in recent months he has tried to build some bridges by offering for his mum to babysit so they can go to the cinema or to a restaurant but this is always rejected with the stock response of "we can't afford it". She seems to have lost any passion for life that she may have had (and she didnt have a great deal of that even before they were married, she has always been incredibly withdrawn which is what makes them such an odd couple as he is quite an outgoing, funny character ). I can see why she is staying even though she probably needs a clean break as she needs to start doing something with her life. She comes across like she has given up on her own happiness so by staying nothing will really change for her and its the path of least resistance. She is freed from any intimacy obligations and gets to keep a family unit together for the kid- bringing up the child is her only ambition now so she will sacrifice her happiness for that. The funny thing is her telling my friend that hes lucky she is staying! The only card she is holding that makes him lucky is an acrimonious battle over visitation rights. He has offered an open relationship, which she has denied. So if he chooses to stay he will effectively be agreeing that he will not have sex for a very long time, if at all and will face an uphill battle to win her over again which she has already told him is likely to take years and in blunt terms does not seem worth the trouble considering how things were before. They both need to be brave enough to move on so they can get their lives back. If she stays she will stagnate and drag him down with her. The bolded statement applies to him as well. People do things because they get something out of it, his is an intact family. It must be of great importance to him as he is willing to sacrifice his happiness for it and none of that would be possible if she walked out the door. So yes, he is lucky she is staying.
Author insert_name Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 The bolded statement applies to him as well. People do things because they get something out of it, his is an intact family. It must be of great importance to him as he is willing to sacrifice his happiness for it and none of that would be possible if she walked out the door. So yes, he is lucky she is staying. I don't think hes staying.
Snaggletooth Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Again, this is why people dying on the inside from lack of intimacy eventually consider sharing their pain not worth it. "Trivialities of my pecker." nice I spoke for myself, nobody else. When with my both ex and late wife my pecker was prioritised below the needs and wants of them and any kid in the house. Should others have differing priorities that is down to them. I've made no judgement or criticism. They are allowed to express their choice, as am I mine. 1
CALOVELY Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I don't think hes staying. That is probably for the best. Her anger will force him in to further celibacy, which will slowly hurt him even more. I am not sure if it was asked but is he still with OW?
Quiet Storm Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 For me it would be about personal integrity- not about whether my spouse deserved it or whether I was justified. Even if my husband denied me sex or cheated on me, I would not cheat on him because I am not a liar or a cheater. I have standards for my own behavior, and the way I behave is a reflection of WHO I AM- not what other people do to me. 4
littleblackheart Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Agreed. I'd rather cut my dick off than either cheat or walk out on a wife and split a family. Their wants and needs are placed above the trivialities of my pecker. Same here, without the pecker reference obviously. 1
Author insert_name Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 That is probably for the best. Her anger will force him in to further celibacy, which will slowly hurt him even more. I am not sure if it was asked but is he still with OW? He ditched her as soon as the affair became known. He was actually relieved, he has been looking to end it with her without his wife finding out. His wife discovering it means the OW talking is no longer an issue.
CALOVELY Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 He ditched her as soon as the affair became known. He was actually relieved, he has been looking to end it with her without his wife finding out. His wife discovering it means the OW talking is no longer an issue. Would counciling be an option? Both of them have poor ways of coping and a professional might be able to help them.
Maleficent Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 There are ways of handling it better. But the signs were there that there were problems and she has willfully ignored them. I think the denial not only of sex, but the denial of human being's needs just because you dont feel like fulfilling them is also an issue that has to be addressed and putting your hands over your ears and going "lalalalala everything is tickety boo" because you are fine with a cuddle and a kiss on the cheek before bed is absolutely not a valid approach to take. From what I hear she literally thinks hes immature for wanting to have sex more than once a month and thinks that because she doesnt have any desire for sex that its acceptable for him to live without it as well. So not only is she denying him sex, she is denying that he has any needs at all on the basis that she has no sex drive! The cynical part of me thinks that she was of course happy to have sex while she was trying to conceive and now that is mission accomplished she has got what she wants and now can let herself go into a slow decline. Whenever I go round and visit she seems to be very insular and quiet, has no real opinion on anything and is pre-occupied with playing with the child or watching TV. She leaves the house to go to work or to the shops and thats about it. My friend says that in recent months he has tried to build some bridges by offering for his mum to babysit so they can go to the cinema or to a restaurant but this is always rejected with the stock response of "we can't afford it". She seems to have lost any passion for life that she may have had (and she didnt have a great deal of that even before they were married, she has always been incredibly withdrawn which is what makes them such an odd couple as he is quite an outgoing, funny character ). I can see why she is staying even though she probably needs a clean break as she needs to start doing something with her life. She comes across like she has given up on her own happiness so by staying nothing will really change for her and its the path of least resistance. She is freed from any intimacy obligations and gets to keep a family unit together for the kid- bringing up the child is her only ambition now so she will sacrifice her happiness for that. The funny thing is her telling my friend that hes lucky she is staying! The only card she is holding that makes him lucky is an acrimonious battle over visitation rights. He has offered an open relationship, which she has denied. So if he chooses to stay he will effectively be agreeing that he will not have sex for a very long time, if at all and will face an uphill battle to win her over again which she has already told him is likely to take years and in blunt terms does not seem worth the trouble considering how things were before. They both need to be brave enough to move on so they can get their lives back. If she stays she will stagnate and drag him down with her. I get it. It's called a defense mechanism.
Author insert_name Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 Would counciling be an option? Both of them have poor ways of coping and a professional might be able to help them. I tried to encourage him in that direction, I think she needs a 3rd party to explain that they both have to work in order to rescue the situation. I think its too easy for her to sit on the moral highground established by his cheating and think thst she brings enough to the table already when really she needs to evaluate her role in this as he does too. So I think counselling would be great for the both of them, but again it comes down to money and the fact that she doesnt see any problem with herself, its him that needs to change. Also her family is very religious and now she wants him to start getting into religion as one of the conditions of staying together. Ubelievable.
autumnnight Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 For me it would be about personal integrity- not about whether my spouse deserved it or whether I was justified. Even if my husband denied me sex or cheated on me, I would not cheat on him because I am not a liar or a cheater. I have standards for my own behavior, and the way I behave is a reflection of WHO I AM- not what other people do to me. Exactly. Just because my spouse was so selfish and thought so little of me as to dismiss my legitimate need for intimacy would not mean it would be okay for me to cheat. Just because they deem me unimportant does not mean my values and morals become unimportant. 1
CALOVELY Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I tried to encourage him in that direction, I think she needs a 3rd party to explain that they both have to work in order to rescue the situation. I think its too easy for her to sit on the moral highground established by his cheating and think thst she brings enough to the table already when really she needs to evaluate her role in this as he does too. So I think counselling would be great for the both of them, but again it comes down to money and the fact that she doesnt see any problem with herself, its him that needs to change. Also her family is very religious and now she wants him to start getting into religion as one of the conditions of staying together. Ubelievable. That is the problem with cheating. All the blame now gets heaped on the unfaithful one. No matter what she did or did not do, infidelity is the trump card. It is interesting that she is from a religious family and now wants him to be part of her faith. Most religions value marriage and specifically make mention about sexual relations between husband and wife as healthy, normal and needed. She must have skipped over that part.
autumnnight Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Sadly, a lot of Christian Bibles must be missing I Cor 7 and Song of Solomon.... But they have the TEN commandments in there at least a hundred times.
truncated Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I acknowledge that relationships are complex and there can be extenuating circumstances, but... you sound like someone who is denying sex to their spouse and making these arguments out of a need to feel justified yourself. Are you a woman? Are you using denial of sex to express dissatisfaction? What I hear you saying is that if a woman feels that all is not perfect in her world and she can rationalize a way to put the blame on the husband, or if "he's just not the super stud he'd like to think he is," then it's perfectly reasonable that she'd cut him off as a way of expressing dissatisfaction, keeping him in line, issuing corrections as in operant conditioning or dog training or something. So I'm calling Bull$hit on the teeny-weeny justifications for why denial of sex might be appropriate. No, the only time we didnèt have sex for a long time ( going more than a week) was after our daughter died. I just couldnt, and neither could he. Our hearts were broken and we both felt too guilty. We did express love for each other in other ways though.
oldshirt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 Look, having suffered a sexless marriage for too long, I get the sentiment here. It isn't remotely right to unilaterally decide to end your spouse's sex life. But is there no other choice besides lying and betrayal? I'm clearly on the record for issuing ultimatums to depriving spouses but I'm just not down for it bring a free pass to hide and cheat. Having been on the receiving end of both of these scenarios, having been lied to and cheated on for a year was far worse than the sexless marriage problems. Oh there are always other choices. I'm just saying if someone knowingly denies their partner and knowingly causes their partner anguish, they waive their expectation of faithfulness. You only have the right to your partner's faithfulness if you are making a good faith effort to meet their needs. If you knowingly choose to not make that good faith effort, then you have no right to bitch if they cheat, if they walk or if they check out of the relationship and they sleep in the guest room and are out with their friends 24/7. 2
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