goodyblue Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Please, before you post, get your erms correct. People living with the stigma of mental illness have enough trouble getting people to udnerstand without things like this circulatin. -bi-polar disorder, depressive disorder, schizophrenia, adjustment disorder, body dismorphic disorder- all forms of mental illness - antisocial personality disorder, narcisistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, schiziod personality disorder-not forms of mental illness, rather, they are disorders of perosnalty WHile some with mental illness stay in unhealthy relationships, most would be described as personality disordered..equally difficult to deal with, but not the same thing Whatever. Don't try and tell me that everyone that cheats and says their partner was part of the problem is a sociopath. It is ridiculous, there are no studies and it is some guess made by a person on a forum. Just because a person reads about it on Wikipedia they are not now suddenly an expert. Most people who have an affair are just that, a person who had an affair. Stop ascribing a name to them that suggests what Sociopath does, it is ridiculous. If everyone who did that were a sociopath there would be no growth, no change, no forgiveness. It is hogwash.
Mal78 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Whatever. Don't try and tell me that everyone that cheats and says their partner was part of the problem is a sociopath. It is ridiculous, there are no studies and it is some guess made by a person on a forum. Just because a person reads about it on Wikipedia they are not now suddenly an expert. Most people who have an affair are just that, a person who had an affair. Stop ascribing a name to them that suggests what Sociopath does, it is ridiculous. If everyone who did that were a sociopath there would be no growth, no change, no forgiveness. It is hogwash. Not "everyone who cheats", *serial cheaters* are more likely to have a personality disorder that enables that behavior particularly sociopaths. The reason that some sociopaths*will cheat repeatedly is: *Doesn’t learn from past mistakes *Lack of guilt, remorse, shame or empathy *Boredom factor, and sometimes for dupers delight and the joy of conning *Are self-serving, motived and centred There is MANY studies and articles by "experts" on the subjects of infidelity and sociopaths. It is common knowledge amongst the psychiatric community when dealing with Sociopath behaviors. It's is a characteristic behavior in a sociopath. Again, not *all* cheaters are sociopaths, however *many* serial/multiple cheaters are. 2
goodyblue Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 You are twisting it. Saying there are are many studies that most sociopaths are serial cheaters is very different from saying most serial cheaters are sociopaths. More accurate is most serial cheaters are selfish asses. 1
anika99 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 I think most serial cheaters have something going on in the inside that is out of whack. Most people do not enjoy causing pain and destruction to everyone around them and to themselves. No way is a serial cheater a perfectly mentally and emotionally healthy individual who just happens to be selfish. That is absurd. Something is seriously wrong with a serial cheater. I agree that it is most likely a personality disorder, but it could also be a sex addiction or mental disorder. 1
Raena Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 It is indeed possible that perhaps there are people on the periphery of my life that have mental illness, I am sure there are, but 1/3 of the population are not sociopaths. Sorry, I don't buy it. Mal never mentioned anything such as depression or some other disorder, she is specifically saying they are sociopaths when in reality a true sociopath is not very common. They are sociopaths TO HER. Lame. By the way Raena, yours is one I wouldn't be surprised to hear WAS one. I know you have been through a lot. Yeah, you know, that's probably why I have the perspective I do. He had me completely bamboozled into thinking he was actually a decent person. The truth is so much less than that and it STILL blows my mind that it wasn't really as obvious as you'd think it would be. I have a feeling that this is probably true more times than one would think. No matter how well you think you know a person... you really don't. 1
Raena Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 (a) sociopaths are not mentally ill. The term is antsocial personality disorder, and it is just that, a personality disorder, not a mental illness. Most people with mental illness mostly just hurt themselves more than anyone else. (b) You stating that you have never met anyne with antisocial personality disorder shows you know little about it, other than the sensationalized version one sees in mass media. Most people with this issue hide it, and can seem 100% kind and caring. They are the ultimate empaths, able to read people down to a T, and change their behvaior accordingly, so long as it gets them what they want, which could be anything form money to power to the secret thrill of knowing they "played" someone. they take the means to an end behvaior pattern to the exreme, so long they are the ones who bennifit from the end. While most people who are WS likely aren't personality diordered some are. MInd you, I once read a study that more OW/Om display traits of anti social personality disorder than do MM, but I don't think that's true either. Have you ever actually read the DSM for psychiatrists? Anti-social personality disorder is in fact a mental illness that is diagnosed and treated by mental health professionals. Now the term sociopath is not actually a term used by these health professionals... that's what most of the rest of us call the same condition. 1
goodyblue Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Yeah, you know, that's probably why I have the perspective I do. He had me completely bamboozled into thinking he was actually a decent person. The truth is so much less than that and it STILL blows my mind that it wasn't really as obvious as you'd think it would be. I have a feeling that this is probably true more times than one would think. No matter how well you think you know a person... you really don't. The thing is, they make you feel as though you are the one that is a nut case. 1
goodyblue Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) Have you ever actually read the DSM for psychiatrists? Anti-social personality disorder is in fact a mental illness that is diagnosed and treated by mental health professionals. Now the term sociopath is not actually a term used by these health professionals... that's what most of the rest of us call the same condition. "The whole disease model that underlies the DSM has been an utter scientific failure," says Stuart Kirk, a professor emeritus of social welfare at UCLA, who has been tracking DSM for decades. "There's not a single biological marker for any of the 300-plus disorders. What we do instead is descriptive. This describing is creating a disorder and pretending it's a medical illness rather than just human behavior." Kirk is co-author of Mad Science: Psychiatric Coercion, Diagnosis, and Drugs, out last month. This is the reason it bothers me when anyone says someone is a sociopath, has APD, etc. We are not professionals. Even if Mal were a Psychiatrist, there are no stats regarding serial cheaters that can be relied upon. People lie, esp. About cheating. And making the sweeping generalization that most serial cheaters are sociopaths is irresponsible at best. Edited December 27, 2014 by goodyblue 1
drifter777 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 In OP's description of the question it seemed to me like the question really could be stated as "are BS's attracted to the kind of person who would have a propensity toward cheating?" Its not "did the BS drive the WS to cheat" or that kind of thing. We know that's a pile of horse sh*t. But do you think you - the BS - now understand why you were attracted to a partner that would likely cheat on you? I now know my wife was a prime candidate for cheating. She was very entitled - she felt she deserved to be "taken care of" and have her wants & needs attended to. That equated into expecting her husband to ride in on a white horse, sweep her off her feet and spend the rest of his life making her the happiest woman in the world. This was her idea of what a husband should be like and, of course, I fell short. Real life was hard with a baby and a husband just starting out on a career. My job took me around the country and we had to move 4 times in 2 years. And remember we had a toddler to boot. Hard stuff. The kind of thing nearly every married couple has to live through - not some special hardship she had to endure because I wasn't a prince. And the very worst contributor to her unwillingness to accept the realities of "typical" life was her family. They never stopped telling her she was special and commiserating about how hard things were and telling her to come "home" for a long visit or go with them on vacations - even encouraging her to move in with them. This was the recipe for her to cheat. She has admitted to being with two guys over a short period of time but I believe there were a couple more along the way. She will never come clean about that. As for me - I'm a classic codependent. I grew up the oldest of 6 with an alcoholic father who abused us verbally and physically on a near daily basis. This shaped me into a father with a desperate need to keep peace in my family. To relive my childhood and change it into what I though it should be. I know this was a major contributor to my seeking out a girl with narcissistic qualities and the biggest reason I stayed with her even though she cheated. She begged me to come back but her remorse was only that she caused me enough pain to make me leave and threaten her with the thought that I (her backup plan) might not return. That she had misjudged my weakness and that I would rather leave and thrust myself back into a painful, chaotic, frightening family situation then come back to a cheating wife. Well, I came back to things worked out fine for her. I guess I got what I was looking for and, deep down in my psyche, what I needed. A partner that abused me while I survived, rose up, and protected my children. I did what nobody would do for me. Isn't this how our minds work? To act out childhood trauma hoping the result will be different somehow? So, yes - I absolutely believe that most codependent BS's seek out a mate with many characteristics of their childhood abuser. I also think that most BS's who stay with their WS are these codpendents trying to change what happened to them when they were children. My opinion is that these BS's are much better off divorcing and then working with a counselor on their own pathology. Personal recovery for a BS is more important than staying married to an abuser due to a sick need. 1
Raena Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 "The whole disease model that underlies the DSM has been an utter scientific failure," says Stuart Kirk, a professor emeritus of social welfare at UCLA, who has been tracking DSM for decades. "There's not a single biological marker for any of the 300-plus disorders. What we do instead is descriptive. This describing is creating a disorder and pretending it's a medical illness rather than just human behavior." Kirk is co-author of Mad Science: Psychiatric Coercion, Diagnosis, and Drugs, out last month. This is the reason it bothers me when anyone says someone is a sociopath, has APD, etc. We are not professionals. Even if Mal were a Psychiatrist, there are no stats regarding serial cheaters that can be relied upon. People lie, esp. About cheating. And making the sweeping generalization that most serial cheaters are sociopaths is irresponsible at best. You are quoting a man who is saying that mental illnesses aren't medical conditions. Ok, so that doesn't change anything. Of course they aren't medical conditions and aren't treated as such either (unless you get a doctor who wants to treat everything with pills which too many do). It IS human behavior... maladaptive human behavior, which happens to be the point of the DSM. Every single one of us has bits and pieces of each and every disorder labeled in the DSM, it's the extent to which the behavior negatively effects that person or the people around that person that defines whether or not they should be "labeled" and treated. I think it's rather annoying that you have to be "labeled" in order to get treatment. It's the same thing with special education students. Human behavior is so varied to begin with, how else would you go about defining those who are way outside of the "norm"? It isn't like treating a medical condition and shouldn't be thought of in that way... apples to oranges. But... back to the sociopath discussion. Someone who repeatedly lies, manipulates, controls, cheats and generally thinks of no one but themselves and has no remorse for their actions or regard for how their actions affect others could easily be "labeled" with antisocial personality disorder..... because that is what it is. It IS a mental health condition and very often... serial cheaters are exactly what I described above.... liars, manipulators, cheaters, focused only on themselves and what they want out of a situation regardless of how it effects someone else. How could a person repeatedly lie, cheat and hurt others and NOT be considered to have a mental illness? Who in their right mind does that to others with no regard for the other person? My point is, we aren't talking about someone who cheats once and feels great remorse for it and spends time trying to fix the problem. We are talking about someone who cheats regularly, in every relationship they are in... because they just don't care how it hurts others. That's not being a "dick", that's more intense than that. 2
goodyblue Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 I stand by my opinion that being an armchair psychiatrist never bodes well.
autumnnight Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 It may be easier to think of it this way: There are mental illnesses and mental disorders. A mental illness is a physiological condition with psychological features. We know from scans of the brain and other tests that schizophrenia, for example, IS a physiological illness. In the same manner, a bipolar brain LOOKS different. is the brain an organ? Yes, so these kinds of mental problems are, in fact, illnesses, and should be no more a source of shame than diabetes or COPD or MS. A mental disorder is different. There is debate about the nature/nurture balance. However, medication is rarely an effective panacea for Borderline or Narcissistic Personality disorders, while medication is a MUST for anyone who respectably treats schizophrenia or type I bipolar disorder. A person with BPD, NPD, APD, etc. needs therapy from someone who specializes in these disorders. Is it still an illness? There is debate about that. However, if one is going to classify OCD or ADHD as an illness then ,yes, it is. However, just like we would never say to someone on a forum who said they had a persistent cough "you have lung cancer" or someone who passed out when they skipped lunch repeatedly, "you are diabetic," it is irresponsible for a person emotionally invested in a topic like infidelity to declare a cheater a sociopath. Could they be? Maybe. Do any of us here on a forum know if they are? No. Even if you are a psychiatrist, because any decent and ethical psychiatrist knows you cannot diagnose some stranger from remarks on the internet. There is a process for arriving at these diagnoses. And really, why do we want to? Well, we want to because a diagnosis not only explains it, it distances us from it. And both of those things make us more comfortable. However, unless you are actually Bob's doctor and interact with Bob in real life in a professional medical environment, you DON'T know if Bob is mentally ill or what kind of disorder he has. Period. Especially if you are a teacher or accountant or lawyer and not a psychology/psychiatry professional. Cheating is a character and morality problem first and foremost, IMO. And a BS does not cause the WS to be immoral. Therefore, it cannot be their "fault" if they get cheated on. 3
truncated Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Have you ever actually read the DSM for psychiatrists? Anti-social personality disorder is in fact a mental illness that is diagnosed and treated by mental health professionals. Now the term sociopath is not actually a term used by these health professionals... that's what most of the rest of us call the same condition. As part of my work, i deal with the DSM nearly everyday. Just because it's in the DSM and can be treated ( hopefully through therapy) diens't make something a mental illness. For example, autism, Asperger's ( now called autism spectrum disorder), PDD-NOS, Rhett's disorder, etc. are all in the DSM, They are not considered mental illness. There can be a comorbidty between these and mental illness like depression, but they are not mental illness. Anyway, that's not what the topic of the thread is about.
Raena Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 As part of my work, i deal with the DSM nearly everyday. Just because it's in the DSM and can be treated ( hopefully through therapy) diens't make something a mental illness. For example, autism, Asperger's ( now called autism spectrum disorder), PDD-NOS, Rhett's disorder, etc. are all in the DSM, They are not considered mental illness. There can be a comorbidty between these and mental illness like depression, but they are not mental illness. Anyway, that's not what the topic of the thread is about. I think there is great confusion between what is a disorder, a condition, a disease, and an illness on this page... There was an argument that APD is not a mental illness, when in fact, it IS... it is a mental disorder that is classified as a mental illness. Yet Austism is also a disorder but is not considered a mental illness. You are right, they are different. That was my point... DSM or not, doesn't change the fact that it IS a mental illness and is treated by mental health professionals. It also doesn't change the fact that someone who would be considered a serial cheater often exhibit many of the same symptoms of those who have anti-social personality disorder. It's easy to see why someone who has experienced it would say so... just like myself. I've seen first hand what it's like to deal with someone who exhibits signs of APD. It isn't pretty... and even though he isn't diagnosed or getting treatment for it... I'd bet my last dollar that my ex does in fact have APD and he IS a serial cheater.
autumnnight Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 It also doesn't change the fact that someone who would be considered a serial cheater often exhibit many of the same symptoms of those who have anti-social personality disorder. It's easy to see why someone who has experienced it would say so... just like myself. I've seen first hand what it's like to deal with someone who exhibits signs of APD. It isn't pretty... and even though he isn't diagnosed or getting treatment for it... I'd bet my last dollar that my ex does in fact have APD and he IS a serial cheater. You lived with your ex day in and day out and probably have enough info to make this hypothesis. NO ONE on a forum has enough info about someone else's spouse/ex to make this diagnosis. That is where the trouble lies, when an armchair psychologist projects and decides some stranger's spouse has a disorder. 1
drifter777 Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Maybe take the debate regarding DSM offline.
truncated Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 I think there is great confusion between what is a disorder, a condition, a disease, and an illness on this page... There was an argument that APD is not a mental illness, when in fact, it IS... it is a mental disorder that is classified as a mental illness. Yet Austism is also a disorder but is not considered a mental illness. You are right, they are different. That was my point... DSM or not, doesn't change the fact that it IS a mental illness and is treated by mental health professionals. It also doesn't change the fact that someone who would be considered a serial cheater often exhibit many of the same symptoms of those who have anti-social personality disorder. It's easy to see why someone who has experienced it would say so... just like myself. I've seen first hand what it's like to deal with someone who exhibits signs of APD. It isn't pretty... and even though he isn't diagnosed or getting treatment for it... I'd bet my last dollar that my ex does in fact have APD and he IS a serial cheater. There are dgeress of this disorder, so it's easy to see how someone with it can really seem so different. They know just what to say and do to make you doubt your own judgement and turn your thinking all around, making you feel ike you are to blame for their mistakes and bad behvaior. Sure, not all cheaters have this issue, but some sure so.
goodyblue Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 So do some businessmen, some preachers, some doctors, some 7-11 clerks.
Friskyone4u Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 The fact of the matter is that we all know or should know that absolutely no one is immune to being betrayed . There are so many factors that can contribute to it that that is why there is no "cure" or book that can solve the problem. If you accept the fact that 90% or more of people probably would tell you they would never cheat , then the answer is that just like some people cannot resist food, others cannot resist the opportunity of temptation to cheat. And they are not all horrible people that belong in mental institutions. The fact is in today's society with so much interaction , especially now at work, between men and women , infidelity will continue to increase . But for someone to tell you you should have known is preposterous in most cases. There are a lot of things couples can do to reduce the odds of risks but there is no way to be certain for sure your spouse will never be in a situation where it can happen and that you should be able to predict that 1
cocorico Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 There are dgeress of this disorder, so it's easy to see how someone with it can really seem so different. They know just what to say and do to make you doubt your own judgement and turn your thinking all around, making you feel ike you are to blame for their mistakes and bad behvaior. Sure, not all cheaters have this issue, but some sure so. As do some "betrayed". And others who have neither "cheated" nor been "cheated" on.
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