notmakingsense Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 I'm in a 15 month relationship with a woman who wants to keep things relaxed and casual. I've had tons of patience about this, as she came out of a long marriage about 2 years ago, and is still dealing with things emotionally, she is still trying to shelter her kids, and the divorce itself is still being finalized. I'm at my wits end with all of this. We don't spend very much time together (2-3 times a month) -- but when we do, it is very close, intimate, we feel like soul-mates, and we talk about our love for each-other and our future. This closeness sometimes causes her to withdraw -- because she gets scared of getting close, and it has the opposite effect on me -- I want to get closer. I feel kind of dumb, because I've posted about this same issue several times from different perspectives, and the answer always seems to be: Respect yourself more, pull back, and move on if she doesn't get more into it with you -- on her own. But... I'm between a rock and a hard-place.... when I get frustrated, I can pull back for a day or so and not try to call / act clingy.... then, when she doesn't call either, I melt, lose my spine, and end up calling her to try to get her to respond to me more. I'm so in love with this woman that I'm afraid that if I don't continue to be patient -- I'll lose the person I'm meant to be with. I have every reason to believe that, from her side, things could continue on like this for a veeeeerrrrry long time. I also believe that while she's not 100% committed to me, she believes that I'm the one she wants to put more effort into when she's ready. So, my question: Have any of you out there been able to deal with a long-term relationship that was more casual than what you wanted/needed? Did your patience pay off, or was it just a delayed journey to a split up? If it payed off, how did you cope and keep it going? Thanks
Merin Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 ::Merin peeks in:: Sorry, but I still have the same opinion regarding this girl.. You've been together for over a year, she hasn't been with her husband for over 2.. you're not getting what you want/need in the relationship and she's okay with that. Relationships are suppose to be about BOTH people getting what they need/want not just one, and only on one persons terms. So with that said.. if you wish to continue in this relationship then be prepared to do so on her terms only. While I understand your fear is that not keeping patience means the possibility of her walking away.. from a different perspective.. if she cares and loves you the way she tells you she does then IMO she wouldn't be trying your patience and having you jump through hoops.. because that also means risking potentially loosing you.. I do wish you the best
Author notmakingsense Posted March 23, 2005 Author Posted March 23, 2005 Merin -- I knew what you were going to say! So how about telling me about how to best pull back.... should I just go no contact? I already screwed up today by calling her -- even though I already left her a message and an e-mail on Monday. You see, this is how it goes day-by-day. We have a fantastic weekend, I call her -- then I don't hear from her for 2 days.... Its her way of controlling the situation and keeping things at arms length.
Merin Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by notmakingsense Merin -- I knew what you were going to say! So how about telling me about how to best pull back.... should I just go no contact? I already screwed up today by calling her -- even though I already left her a message and an e-mail on Monday. You see, this is how it goes day-by-day. We have a fantastic weekend, I call her -- then I don't hear from her for 2 days.... Its her way of controlling the situation and keeping things at arms length. I'm sorry.. You know honestly it isn't just a controlling thing she is doing in not returning your phone calls for 2 days or however long she deems to be okay.. it's just rude as hell If this were me, I would either blow her butt off completely (which honestly IMO is probably the best thing to do here) or give her the relationship she gives to you and says she wants.. which is one that IS casual.. this means.. 1) Don't call her or contact her.. she has your number and knows how to reach you if she's so inclined 2) Don't knock yourself out making her weekend so fantastic.. not saying be an jerk when or if the 2 of you get together.. but don't hurt ya'self trying know what I mean? 3) Don't spend the ENTIRE weekend with her.. tell her you've got other plans (and for real.. make some other plans with friends or whatever) 4) Don't be so eager to have her back.. or make things all good and okay for her 5) Don't change your own plans or wishes to suit her She has determined that YOU WILL do ANYTHING and put with ANYTHING to keep her.. so yeah.. she's taking advantage of that and of you and that isn't okay.. show her it isn't okay.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 23, 2005 Author Posted March 23, 2005 Merin -- Thanks for telling it like you see it. Both options (blow off, go casual) are going to be hard for me. Maybe I should hop over to the Coping forum to see how people are able to stick with no contact. Its sort of the same thing I guess.
alphamale Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by notmakingsense I also believe that while she's not 100% committed to me, she believes that I'm the one she wants to put more effort into when she's ready. Ahhh...but this is where you are sadly mistaken NOTMAKINGSENSE. You are the non-serious rebound guy. When she is emotionally ready for "putting in more effort" she will be doing it with someone other man. Sorry, the truth can be hard to hear many times but you need to hear it.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 23, 2005 Author Posted March 23, 2005 Ahhh...but this is where you are sadly mistaken NOTMAKINGSENSE. You are the non-serious rebound guy. When she is emotionally ready for "putting in more effort" she will be doing it with someone other man Thanks Alpha -- this is what I tell myself in my most pissed-off/frustrated moments. If she were truly in to me, she'd be putting more effort into this right now. I need some way to find more strength about this.
Cecelius Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 Whether Alpha is right (he is) or not, you've done everything on the planet to put this woman in her current situation: calling too much, calling back again, etc. She wants a man with a spine. So long as she knows that you'll call back, she never has to (rude or not). Lastly, I tend to disagree with "doing NC" as people discuss it here. Stop calling her because its doofy and un-smooth, but stop calling her because you have better things to do (like go out with other women). It isn't a game or a technique to manipulate.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 23, 2005 Author Posted March 23, 2005 Whether Alpha is right (he is) or not, you've done everything on the planet to put this woman in her current situation: calling too much, calling back again, etc. She wants a man with a spine. So long as she knows that you'll call back, she never has to (rude or not). Lastly, I tend to disagree with "doing NC" as people discuss it here. Stop calling her because its doofy and un-smooth, but stop calling her because you have better things to do (like go out with other women). It isn't a game or a technique to manipulate. Thanks Cecelius. Thats quite an observation. People do tend to consider no-contact as either a manipulative technique, or simply something that helps them heal. So -- I just start getting busy and not calling as a result? Well, unfortunately I'm not so busy right now -- I've got to get back out there.... But after 15 months, do you think I should at least try to tell her off in an e-mail or something before I cut the cord, or should I just drop off?
Mz. Pixie Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 NMS- What Alpha told you is essentially what I said in your other post. If she were really into you, she'd move mountains to be with you. I'm in the same situation as she is, but that's what I do to be with my bf.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 23, 2005 Author Posted March 23, 2005 What Alpha told you is essentially what I said in your other post. If she were really into you, she'd move mountains to be with you. Right Mz Pixie -- two threads, same conclusion. I need to figure out how to deal with this now. I'm just not very good at the "move on" thing. I'm not yet pissed-off enough I guess, and I certainly haven't fallen out of love yet.
Merin Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 I don't think it's a matter of being pissed off *Enough* OR even Falling out of Love *Yet* Honestly when you have had enough of this, and you're ready to move on then you will. My last BF.. he freakin pissed me off like no one else ever has in my life.. the more I gave the more he took. The more I bended the more he would try to break me.. Nobody could understand WTF I saw in him.. why didn't I tell him to f'ck off, why did I stay with him for so long when clearly he wasn't giving me what I needed/wanted to be happy in the relationship.. I don't know why.. I guess in a lot of ways I was to afraid to fail.. and I thought IF I just was patient enough or loved him enough it would get better.. it never did. I can honestly say that when I ended the relationship in December it hurt me so much.. I wasn't mad when I ended it and it wasn't that I didn't Love him.. it was that everyone has thier limit even if it takes you more time to get there than people think it should.. everyone told me that when I had enough, REALLY ENOUGH that I would do the right things for ME. He cried and begged me not to end it.. another chance.. but in this case I'd heard it all before, done it all before and knew it wasn't going to work no matter how much I wanted it to. I still love him somewhere in my heart.. and I think about him on occassion and hope he's okay.. but for real.. i'm much happier without him in my life than I ever was with him. Only YOU know whats okay for you and what isn't.. to yourself be true.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 24, 2005 Author Posted March 24, 2005 Thanks for the thoughtful words Merin... Nobody could understand WTF I saw in him.. why didn't I tell him to f'ck off, why did I stay with him for so long when clearly he wasn't giving me what I needed/wanted to be happy in the relationship.. I have friends that are totally thinking I'm a wacko for sticking it out as long as I have. They can see that I'm totally in love -- but then they look at the pain I'm going through and they simply shake their heads.... I don't know why.. I guess in a lot of ways I was to afraid to fail.. and I thought IF I just was patient enough or loved him enough it would get better.. it never did. This is exactly how I feel! I'm afraid to fail. I'm looking at this as a personal failure rather than what she's contributing to the situation. Honestly when you have had enough of this, and you're ready to move on then you will. I'm sure you are right. Right now, I'm amazed at the tolerance level I have for pain....
RecordProducer Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 She might be playing a game as well. Knowing that marriage #2 doesn't suit her at the moment, she might use the time to play with your feelings in the meanwhile. Some women have this instinct for warming up men in a microwave oven before they admit their feelings. Wish I was like that with my boyfriend. But too much reserved most often means - not too much in love. You're not ready to break up. Why would you do that? Usually this is typical for a reverse situation - the man is the one who doesn't want to commit. You love her so you know why you are with her. Try to find (figure) out if she is in love with you.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 24, 2005 Author Posted March 24, 2005 Thanks for your post RP... Some women have this instinct for warming up men in a microwave oven before they admit their feelings. When we are together, she tells me how much she loves me, how she believes that we'll always be in eachother's lives, and she even talks as if we are going to get married. This is one of my greatest sources of frustration... her ability to just "turn this all off" from time to time (quite often, actually). But too much reserved most often means - not too much in love. Right. This is what I think about during those times she won't interact with me. You're not ready to break up. Why would you do that? Usually this is typical for a reverse situation - the man is the one who doesn't want to commit. You love her so you know why you are with her. Try to find (figure) out if she is in love with you. More frustration... like I pointed out above, she tells me she's in love with me. And she'll tell me again when we are together again... then she goes and withdraws from me. Beyond words, how can I judge this? Doesn't her withdrawals tell me that she's not too much in love?
RecordProducer Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 I think the typical behavior of people who are in love is passionate and sparkling, and loving and caring at the same time. It's sad that after so many books, movies, and experiences we still aren't able to read the basic signs of love. Sometimes stupid things like jealousy or possessiveness can show that we care. However, some people are more passionate than others. How does she act with her children? Have you met them? What are your main differences and obstacle? Are there any financial, educational, career or age differences? It's possible that you are merely her transitional man. But please don't take my words for granted. If you talk to her openly about it, it might help. Have you tried that option? Why do you see each other only 2-3 a month?
tokyo Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 There was this girl a while ago who had this friend for ten years and who for two years now has been telling her that he liked her too and wanted a relationship with her when he was ready as he had to deal with a sick mom and his dad died years ago. In her case I felt there was a chance, while in your case I don't think you will get any further. I'm not sure right now if I was not projecting my own hopes unto her and therefore thought she had a chance. What you wrote strikes another cord with me, you resemble me of this friend of mine who was pretty interested in me. I really like him, just not as a boyfriend. I do think we are close, we used to write a lot of emails every day (when times were good if not we went by with months of no contact...), but what he obviously perceives as being wonderful and close, I consider, well, nice, comforting, but it's definitely not the kind of passionate love I feel for other people. Maybe I'm really biased, but my gut-feeling tells me that you are not getting anywhere with this woman. I also think she would not have any problems to let you go if you came to her and gave her the option to have a relationship with you or to let you look for someone else. Hm, in the other case he was interested that she stayed. You have put her too much on a pedestal and that usually is a bit of a turn off for people. You appear spineless (sorry, ). Anyway, back off, etc. and do what everybody else has recommended you as far as now. You have started to realize that this is necessary, so do it. Good luck
Donut Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 I'd say look at her actions rather than her words. She may say she loves you and all that, but her actions aren't backing it up. If she truly did love you, the way you want her to she'd be happy to see you more than she is now and would be putting in alot more effort. Especially after 15 months together! Love shouldn't bring such pain and unfortunately some people use the word lightly. Maybe she's not emotionally available for the kind of relationship you want and deserve, which doesn't make her a bad person, simply that you want different things. If you haven't done so already, tell her once and only once what you want, (a proper loving relationship) make it very clear how you feel, then back the hell off! You absolutely must do this if you can't take anymore! Don't see it as a manipulation to get her to comply, see it as a way of processing your own feelings and having the courage to get what you want, whether or not it's with her or someone else who will come along. After a while of NC (if that is what happens) you may find yourself with a completely different perspective of her and be thankful that you found the courage to end a go nowhere relationship.
MWC_LifeBeginsAt40 Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 I only wish I could find that kind of patience.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 24, 2005 Author Posted March 24, 2005 Wow -- thanks for all of your great replies! RecordProducer: However, some people are more passionate than others. How does she act with her children? Have you met them? What are your main differences and obstacle? Are there any financial, educational, career or age differences? She is quite passionate when things get intimate, however, I have noticed that when in the everyday-setting, she has issues with communication in general. When something upsets her -- her tendency is to withdraw and be unreachable. When she gets to be unreachable by me -- I believe it is because she is wrestling with conflicted feelings about me, or the emotions of still wrestling with her divorce. There are differences in the financial world.... she's used to having a lot of money because her EXH is wealthy. One of her hangups is knowing that where we live (very expensive), it will be a struggle at first for us to merge lives. Why do you see each other only 2-3 a month? Because she isn't yet comfortable involving me more fully around her children. While I have met her children casually, we haven't crossed into the phase of me obviously being her boyfriend in their eyes. She claims it is because they aren't ready -- they were upset when their father brought a GF into their lives who didn't treat them well -- but I think this also has to do with her not fully ready to commit to me at that level -- even though she talks to me about getting married. Kooky: What you wrote strikes another cord with me, you resemble me of this friend of mine who was pretty interested in me. I really like him, just not as a boyfriend. I do think we are close, we used to write a lot of emails every day (when times were good if not we went by with months of no contact...), but what he obviously perceives as being wonderful and close, I consider, well, nice, comforting, but it's definitely not the kind of passionate love I feel for other people. Maybe I'm really biased, but my gut-feeling tells me that you are not getting anywhere with this woman. You are probably right. We've never gone that long without contact -- and when we are together, I feel like her level of passion is very high -- but maybe I'm not reading it right? I also think she would not have any problems to let you go if you came to her and gave her the option to have a relationship with you or to let you look for someone else. Hm, in the other case he was interested that she stayed. You have put her too much on a pedestal and that usually is a bit of a turn off for people. You appear spineless (sorry, ). Anyway, back off, etc. and do what everybody else has recommended you as far as now. You have started to realize that this is necessary, so do it. I'm almost there. Yes -- I realize I'm being spineless. Donut: I'd say look at her actions rather than her words. She may say she loves you and all that, but her actions aren't backing it up. If she truly did love you, the way you want her to she'd be happy to see you more than she is now and would be putting in alot more effort. Especially after 15 months together! Love shouldn't bring such pain and unfortunately some people use the word lightly. Maybe she's not emotionally available for the kind of relationship you want and deserve, which doesn't make her a bad person, simply that you want different things. If you haven't done so already, tell her once and only once what you want, (a proper loving relationship) make it very clear how you feel, then back the hell off! You absolutely must do this if you can't take anymore! Don't see it as a manipulation to get her to comply, see it as a way of processing your own feelings and having the courage to get what you want, whether or not it's with her or someone else who will come along. After a while of NC (if that is what happens) you may find yourself with a completely different perspective of her and be thankful that you found the courage to end a go nowhere relationship. Well said Donut. I truly don't think she's a bad person -- I think you are right that she either just wants something different at this stage in her life -- or I'm simply not the person that she's enough in-love with to commit more fully to. I'm almost there..... to the point where I need to have "the talk" with her. I'm still seeing this too much as a personal failure..... I need a bit more strength..... but you are right, I need to look out for myself and have the courage to get what I want. Thanks to all of you --- you are really helping me sort through this.
Donut Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Please don't look at it as a personal failure, look at it as a chance to learn and grow from the experience.
Author notmakingsense Posted March 24, 2005 Author Posted March 24, 2005 Thanks Donut. I'll update you all on this soon.
Mz. Pixie Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 I'm reading this other post and you talking about the financial aspect. Good thing I didn't think about that when I left my husband. That smacks of being selfish. She doesn't want to change her lifestyle to be with you?? That makes me angry, sorry. My financial situation will improve once BF and I marry but in the meantime it's still hard- especially when my kids need something and I can't provide it. I could have stayed with my EXH and had a housekeeper, someone to do my laundry, etc but that stuff was not important to me. BF bought me a beautiful sterling cuff bracelet for Christmas. It is made in the style of David Yurman and has onyx and stuff on it. It's very nice and I get lots of compliments on it. Someone made a comment that gee, their boyfriend gave them diamond earrings for Christmas (in front of him and they were TINY diamonds). I think it hurts his feelings but I'm sure this bracelet was more expensive than those diamond earrings. I said, "Well, baby- I'd rather have what we have than all the diamonds and gold in the world" and it's true. He's a teacher and will never make as much money as my EXH but I don't care! He loves me and gives me so much more than money can buy. I'm not liking her so much, you know?
Author notmakingsense Posted March 24, 2005 Author Posted March 24, 2005 Yeah -- I know. Its not as bad as it sounds, its more of her planning side -- the game plan being that we should remain as GF/BF for a few more years which will allow her to same more money, and will allow me to get past the financial drains from my divorce. Between us, we have 4 kids, and in our area, it is going to be very difficult to merge families until we are both a little further along in our finances. That said -- the degree to which she has brought it up has taken the wind out of love's sails.... I'm not sure how much weight to place on that aspect. But, from your vantage point, I can see why that would make you angry -- you sacrificed a lot for your new relationship.
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