Inappropriate student teacher relationship... Why did it go from OK to not OK?

[Driver]

I am 25 and a medical student doing rotations. This month I got set up to do a rotation with "Dr. Stein," a psychiatrist who is male and about 50-55 years old. His role was to be my teacher or "preceptor." I feel that in many ways lines have been crossed... And I just want to know what you all think. I am starting to doubt myself and my role in things.

 

At the beginning of this rotation, I was really feeling uncomfortable with the work environment itself. I didn't feel very safe, as the particular facility we work in is kinda creepy. I actually wanted out of the rotation, but my school encouraged me to talk with Dr. Stein to help me figure out ways to be more comfortable and to maybe figure out some of the reasons why I wasn't. Since Dr. Stein is a mental health professional, he really was the best person to talk to about this stuff. He asked me a lot of personal questions, and the personal dialogue began flowing. Some of the questions that he asked were a little weird, like the age I first started having sex and how my sex drive is now, but I figured it was all part of his analysis. Besides, I am super open with a lot of people about my life and my feelings so it didn't seem odd. He also makes a ton of sexual jokes to his coworkers all day long, so I figured he was just a guy that was open about sex. He even told me that "The conversation always comes back to sex and then it's normal to feel aroused when talking about sex." Weird, I know, but I thought at the time it's just a psychiatrist thing.

 

On the fourth day of my rotation, we got done with the workday, and he wanted to take me to dinner. I knew he does that with a lot of the students, so I went along with it. During that dinner, more personal questions were asked... For example, he asked me how my relationship was with my boyfriend because he "sensed something was wrong." I told him about some of my relationship problems, because I figured it was like getting free therapy! I told him that one of my problems is that I am a little insecure in my relationship, and he then said, "You would have to be dumb and blind not appreciate a woman like you… Your eyes, your lips, your perfect nose, your long hair, your tall and thin body..." It was a little weird and I blushed, and he commented on my blushing -- "Your face flushed when I told you that." He also asked how much my boyfriend and I have sex. Then he told me that I need to wait to get married, because I have an energy within me that needs to come out. I told him that I agreed with him, and that I felt I needed to take up painting or writing or something to get the energy out, and then he told me that it was a "sexual energy" and that I might need to have a "really great sexual fling" before I settle down. He mentioned that he believes that it is okay for people in relationships to cheat on each other because if someone is making you feel like you want to cheat on them, you should be able to do it. Again, some of these things made me uncomfortable but because he was my preceptor and supposed mentor, and because I knew I would be spending the next month with him, I kept engaging in the conversation. We also talked about other things, but those are the comments that made me feel weird. At the end of the conversation he made a comment about how he and his wife don't talk, that they just watched TV and went to bed. I said, "That's depressing and it sounds unfulfilling. Who do psychiatrists talk to when they need help... Like who takes care of YOU when you're taking care of others all day?" He looked very surprised and told me that no one had ever asked him that question before in 15 years of him being a psychiatrist. Then the night wrapped up, which I was glad about because I was feeling a little overwhelmed from all of the conversation.

 

The next day at work, we only saw a few patients before he wanted to go out to lunch. I didn't want to go out for lunch, but I was still in the student on rotations mode where you do what you are told. After all, he is the person who is supposed to be mentoring me and eventually grading me. When we got to the restaurant, he immediately started excitedly talking about how my one comment last night made him think about his whole life and he was so grateful to me for that. He started talking about how we were "meant to meet each other" and that "things happen for reason." He said that he "hasn't talked to anyone like you talk to me in many many years" and that "we are going to be very great friends." I felt like it was a little weird and intense, but I just kind of nodded. I didn't say anything about him meaning anything to me or anything. I just nodded.

 

After lunch, he asked me if it was okay if we went for a drive. Once again, I was still in student mode and remember that other students from my program drove with him to and from the facility, so I assumed it wasn't a big deal. Then we kept talking, stopped to get cigarettes which I smoked with him. Then he asked me if it was okay if we kept driving, and I politely paused and was just like "Uhhhh, drive around? That's a waste of gas... We don't have to do that." But he insisted and said that he doesn't worry about gas. Since we technically were still on the clock for the workday, I felt I had no excuse. It felt weird but I went with it. We ended up driving around and talking for a few hours, and he totally blew off his patients (which seems unusual for him). This time around, he did most of the talking, since I was feeling a little uncomfortable… But I would occasionally open up about things. We work in a very remote area, so there was a lot of driving on nearly abandoned roads and a lot of stops for cigarette breaks at the rest stops on the side of the road. What was weird was, he started opening my car door like it was a date or something every time we would get back in the car. As we were driving, which he did for a few hours, something in the back of my mind was telling me I should be uncomfortable. Something was telling me that this is weird, not normal behavior… He even said some odd things like "When I look at you, it's like looking at the mirror… And I love myself." He also made a comment about how I "wouldn't be boring in bed" when he was trying to tell me the reasons I should be more secure. Finally, he mentioned that he had asked me a question earlier in the day to "test my maturity" (he asked me if he should pick me up at my hotel I am staying at or meet him at Burger King before we drove to work together... To which I said Burger King) and apparently I passed the test of maturity...? Weird. At this point, I kind of called him out on it. I said that I didn't know what his intentions were, and I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the way this situation looks especially on the outside, it seems really inappropriate and strange. I hinted that it seemed kind of predatory for a man that is 30 years older than me and my teacher to be driving me around and saying certain comments to me. He just kept reassuring me that there are so many barriers to us being together on a romantic level, that he would never pursue me in that way, that he would never think of me in that way, that he just sees us as equals with a potential to be friends. He kept assuring me that he was so strongly drawn to me because I made him think about his whole life in my one comment at dinner yesterday. So after some reassurance, I felt okay about everything. I thought to myself, "Sure, there were some odd questions and comments, and the driving around is odd but maybe he really just needs a friend." At the end of the night, he dropped me back off at my car and mentioned that if I wanted to work in psychiatry he would train me 100% and get me the best job ever which I was estatic about. Then he asked me if I enjoyed the night. I said something like "best day ever!" which I am now regretting... I think at the time I was still high on the fun of the intellectual conversation and I was believing that it really was a mentor mentee relationship between us. Then he said "Who are you going to tell about our friendship?" I told him I tell my mom everything and he advised me not to, until I make some personal changes in my life that shows our "friendship" is good for me. And that was that.

 

When I got home, I texted one of my friends (who was concerned about the first dinner) an update and said "I talked to Dr. Stein and his intentions are pure, and we actually had a really great intellectual conversation! I feel bad I told you he was a creep so don't say anything to any of the other students." When she heard the details of the night, she was really disgusted and bothered by the whole thing… She kept telling me that it seem like he was trying to exploit a student, that he was violating professional student teacher boundaries, and that he was trying to manipulate me in some ways. She said this is a classic example of someone abusing their power. I considered what she was saying, so I decided to do some reading on predator psychology and what I found was that maybe Dr. Stein used a lot of those "predatory" psychopath tactics on me. Making our relationship go from 0 to 60 within 24 hours, idealizing me and telling me how special I am and how much of a difference I made in his life and how we were meant to meet each other, making promises to me about how he would get me the best job, driving me around when I didn't have a phone or money or anything, violating boundaries between teacher and student, testing me with various questions (like the picking me up from my hotel vs Burger King question), making comments about my appearance and my sexuality. In isolation, none of those things are that bad, but altogether when you look at them, especially taking into consideration the fact that he is supposed to be my teacher, I just realized something is wrong. When I had time alone to reflect and piece things back together in my mind, I began to get really freaked out.

 

Today when I got into work, he told me that he had gone into work over the weekend, which he never does, and knocked 60 patients out of the way "because I selfishly wanted to spend more time with you." I felt really uncomfortable, and basically told him right then and there that I thought about it over the weekend and realized that we crossed some professional boundaries and that we should just stick to work from this point on. I think he was really taken aback, and he kept trying to explain himself and explore while I was feeling uncomfortable, and suggested going out to lunch to talk about things in a more personal level at least five or six times (to each request I said "not a good idea"). He said he was confused... and we talked about this for at least two hours today. I still have to work with him for a few more days and I feel awkward. And guilty, that I apparently "switched gears" on him.

 

I guess the problem is, I'm questioning myself. Why did I feel like everything was okay (or at least act like everything was okay) in the moment, and then have some time alone on the weekend to think about things and suddenly become very grossed out by him? Why DID I switch gears? Have I been over dramatizing things in my head and making him into a villain? Or should I have been thinking this way all along? Was this my fault just as much as it is his?

[toscaroscura]

Sorry I didn't finish reading but honey, this guy is textbook. He swipes from the cheaters manual and the sexual predator manual. You are NOT wrong and you are NOT imagining things. This man has been grooming you.

[Driver]

Haha, I know it is so long so I appreciate you reading even a little bit of it! I feel like I have to type out the whole story because I think all of the little comments and nuances are relevant.

[whichwayisup]

This man has totally manipulated you and made you doubt your gut instincts. My skin was crawling while reading your opening post! OMG, he has put you in a corner so if you do come forward and complain, he'll use the dinner and lunches against you saying you went willingly. He is very smart man and how he got you to open up to him even though it was personal to you, it's like he planted the seed and it grew on it's own...You thought, hey this is free therapy by talking to him about your personal life, and then he manipulated you more.

[90s kid]

Your entire post made my stomach churn. This guy is a sexual predator. He's obviously trying to have an affair with you and you're falling for it hook, line, and sinker. It is totally inappropriate for your mentor to be initiating sexual conversations with you EVER. Why the hell do you keep talking to him and seeing him outside of work?? Your friend is 100% right. Obviously your gut is telling you something is wrong because you're posting this story asking for advice. Never ignore your gut! It's there to keep you out of dangerous situations. Please stop going out with him. Don't engage in any conversations with him outside of professional conversations. Let him know that you want to maintain a strictly professional relationship and if he tries to cross the line again, you need to report him.

The fact that you keep playing into his hands and continuing this relationship with him makes me fear for your safety. I don't want to insult your intelligence, but please, please, please use your brain! He's banking on the fact that you're naive easily manipulated.

[Driver]

Thank you all so much for your advice and for reading my super long post.

 

I just wanted to mention that these two experiences all occurred over a matter of 24 hours… so it isn't like I've been participating in this for a prolonged period of time. I feel like I recognized it pretty quickly (especially after reading about psychopath and predator psychology… Which he matches to the T) but I am feeling ashamed I even got myself into the situation. I have never been in this kind of situation before… there have been instances where I give people too much benefit of the doubt, but nothing like this. I think maybe I got fooled because of several reasons: 1) he's a psychiatrist and my teacher that my school selected for me so I better keep the peace and be polite, 2) he's a psychopath and predator, and 3) since he's a psychiatrist he's basically REALLY good at making people feel comfortable talking. I guess I can rationalize it that way, but I still feel like an idiot.

 

I feel like this whole story sounds almost made up! It's just crazy. I asked another girl who did this rotation how it went, and she admitted that she felt uncomfortable for several reasons so… We decided that we are going to report this psycho together. Not officially or in a way that steps on his toes... We just want to make sure our school no longer sends any students to him anymore.

[autumnnight]

Don't feel like it's made up. I know what you are talking about because I had it done to me too. He is grooming you. Honestly I would talk to your supervisors and see if you can get placed somewhere else. This kind of person can make you feel like you are going crazy.

[BetrayedH]

Here's another vote for..."he's grooming you."

 

You never know how many women he's done this to or how many he will do it to in the future. I'd strongly consider officially reporting it. He may have been reported before (gotten a warning or something) and your report might finally be the one that makes it actionable.

[autumnnight]

I am not usually pushy but I keep thinking about this. Someone did this subtle pushing ever increasing stuff to me a long time ago until I didn't know if it was him or me that "started" it and I didn't share it for a long time because I felt guilty. You can stand up to this. HE is out of line. I agree with reporting it.

[acrosstheuniverse]

Wow. This a TEXTBOOK example of how somebody in a position of power grooms and manipulates younger, less powerful people in order to get them into bed. His behaviour makes me feel really sick.

 

Needless to say, yes he is a complete creep, and YES you should absolutely report him. Kudos for you realising that he's up to no good now, but I have to admit I'm a little concerned that it took you this long. You should know as a soon-to-be-professional that this kind of behaviour from someone in a position of power is not acceptable, and it's worrying you let it go as far as it did (answering him questions about your sex life, agreeing to hang out with him alone, not walking out when he made comments about having a fling together). I sense you are a little immature and may be taken advantage of in the future if you don't toughen up a lot before you enter the workplace!

 

Have you had much to do with men and dating before? Because you make a lot of excuses for seriously creepy and overt behaviour, like him asking you about your sex life and brushing it off as 'free therapy'. That kind of behaviour won't fly in the workplace, trust me, and you'll end up in hot water quickly with HR or have your reputation tarnished for good when you should be building your professional reputation.

 

I personally work alongside a consultant psychiatrist, the only one in my department... I'm 26 and he's 56. My spidey senses went off last week when he started asking me a lot of personal questions about myself and suggested we go for dinner, because he didn't know anyone in the area... I brushed it off and politely declined, and when it transpired he was trying to take us out as a team assumed I had been mistaken in the dinner invite. However, after a meeting yesterday he made a beeline for me, and invited me to some alleged conference next week, I said send me the details and I'll see if I'm free (knowing full well I wouldn't be!) as I didn't want to make the situation obvious to the whole office there and then.

 

When I got back to my office I told my manager and said that my senses were now saying he was hitting on me, and it was making me feel uncomfortable (it is). I'm a big girl and I could handle it but it's not professional behaviour on his behalf, and I needed her to know I wasn't encouraging it. His manager is now going to speak to him about ensuring he relates to staff appropriately, and doesn't ask out junior members of his team to after-work dinners alone.

 

We'd like to think people in professional positions of power act professionally at all times, but having had three or four lecturers/professors/consultants try and get me into bed/take me on dates, I've learned that people are people, whatever their pay grade. You have to be careful in these situations.

[Driver]

Thanks to everyone for your responses and concern. I really, really appreciate it. This situation has left me feeling a little bit crazy and alone so the support helps. He is an extremely good manipulator, and he has been good at making me feel like his intentions have been totally normal and benign, and that I have nothing to worry about.

 

During our first conversation, I let things slide because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. After the second conversation, I felt like he lost my respect and trust. But it was only after I had time to step out of the situation and get home and reflect on it. I feel stupid because in the moment, I didn't really recognize what was happening… I told him I felt uncomfortable and he had a pretty great explanation, so I went with it. I did open up to him (although less and less as the 24 hour period of weirdness went on). I just feel so stupid and wonder why I didn't recognize it in the moment. And yeah, I am blaming myself for some of this... I am "concerned" for myself that I seem to have on rose colored glasses and miss the darkness in people sometimes. :-( Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is my naivety a little bit understandable in this situation, given that he is a psychiatrist and my teacher, and that I was able to recognize and call him out on it after two conversations? Or is this something that reflects a serious issue within me that I need to work on? I really am beating myself up for this because I can't imagine many other people in this situation.

 

I am all set to meet with the director of my program tomorrow and tell him what happened. I'm going to be really embarrassed and uncomfortable because I feel like this whole situation makes me look like a naïve idiot. but I feel like I would never forgive myself if one of my future classmates it got put in the situation with this teacher.

[toscaroscura]

Thanks to everyone for your responses and concern. I really, really appreciate it. This situation has left me feeling a little bit crazy and alone so the support helps. He is an extremely good manipulator, and he has been good at making me feel like his intentions have been totally normal and benign, and that I have nothing to worry about.

 

During our first conversation, I let things slide because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. After the second conversation, I felt like he lost my respect and trust. But it was only after I had time to step out of the situation and get home and reflect on it. I feel stupid because in the moment, I didn't really recognize what was happening… I told him I felt uncomfortable and he had a pretty great explanation, so I went with it. I did open up to him (although less and less as the 24 hour period of weirdness went on). I just feel so stupid and wonder why I didn't recognize it in the moment. And yeah, I am blaming myself for some of this... I am "concerned" for myself that I seem to have on rose colored glasses and miss the darkness in people sometimes. :-( Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is my naivety a little bit understandable in this situation, given that he is a psychiatrist and my teacher, and that I was able to recognize and call him out on it after two conversations? Or is this something that reflects a serious issue within me that I need to work on? I really am beating myself up for this because I can't imagine many other people in this situation.

 

I am all set to meet with the director of my program tomorrow and tell him what happened. I'm going to be really embarrassed and uncomfortable because I feel like this whole situation makes me look like a naïve idiot. but I feel like I would never forgive myself if one of my future classmates it got put in the situation with this teacher.

 

 

Don't blame yourself. Most normal, decent people operate under the social rules that others aren't trying to prey on us so audaciously. It just means you are a normal person.

 

Just take it as a learning experience. Learn the signs and behaviors and file them away for the future.

 

And for the record, I didn't finish reading your story not because it was too long, but because his behavior was making me sick and angry on your behalf. You have support here.

[acrosstheuniverse]

I just feel so stupid and wonder why I didn't recognize it in the moment. And yeah, I am blaming myself for some of this... I am "concerned" for myself that I seem to have on rose colored glasses and miss the darkness in people sometimes. :-( Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is my naivety a little bit understandable in this situation, given that he is a psychiatrist and my teacher, and that I was able to recognize and call him out on it after two conversations? Or is this something that reflects a serious issue within me that I need to work on? I really am beating myself up for this because I can't imagine many other people in this situation.

 

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. I'm pretty hard on some posters here (sometimes it takes a bit of straight-talking to make someone see something a bit differently) which is why I wanted to bring up concern that you allowed him to behave in that way... but from your response, I don't really think you should be too concerned. I get the sense that if this happens again, you will be able to recognise it and put an end to it quickly, it's good it has made you think and question yourself, that's the sign of someone mature enough to realise difficult things about themselves and be willing to do what's necessary to change.

 

The naivety, I hope is something that this experience has impacted upon. It happens to the best of us, hell I fell for the professor who I had a fling with... it was more about us as people, but I'd be lying if his power and the fact he showed an interest in me when I had a crush on him from afar didn't contribute towards me crossing that line. However, he's a guy that I would date even if I met him under other circumstances, wasn't involved in my department or subject area, and it didn't kick off until I finished my degree and he'd left that university. Still, I can see how those dynamics can be intoxicating. And extremely fun to play around with.

 

Good for you, realising it was inappropriate and putting a stop to it within a couple of days. Many would have gotten swept away with it, gone into a full blown affair, been so flattered by the interest they overlooked the negative aspects, or gone full steam ahead hoping it might somehow help their career down the line. You put a stop to it quickly, and before any damage was done. And I'm pleased you're strong enough to report him, this behaviour is not okay and the next student might be less headstrong.

 

We don't all always walk around in the mindset that someone would take advantage of it, and I think the first few interactions where it crosses the line can be a bit heady and confusing, trying to work out how you feel about it and whether they really did cross it or whether you were just (wishfully or otherwise) imagining it! Sometimes it's really disappointing to find out that someone you otherwise respected can cross the line like that, I find. If you're at the start of your career it's fair to be a bit unable to see the darkness in people but with enough practice and client contact you will soon be able to: mental health is such a tricky area to work in, especially with certain client groups. It's not all as it seems, a lot of the time. That naivety will ebb away, it has to.

 

When this psychiatrist at my work tries it on a third time I'm going to stop him with a smile and say 'oh thanks, but I tend to keep work and home separate and don't really socialise with co-workers too often! I'm sure you'll have a great time' or something of that ilk. I'm sure the person you report this guy to will have some advice on how to handle him and move forward. Best of luck.