Risk of marriage vs expectation of the affair

[MuddyFootprints]

We are only getting somewhere if we commit to rowing together.

 

[Selfish]

How then would you suggest that DKT, or any other BS for that matter, should identify cheating behaviour in it's early days if not by the behaviour that lead the WS there in the first place?

 

YOu can't identify cheating by forgetting to renew netflix or having an argument. That is just silly. Nobody has a crystal ball. If every mistake or selfish act is viewed as a sign of future infidelity then every single one of us are on the track to be a cheater. You are very wayward yourself in your behaviour. And then of course there are the people who are attentive and do remember to renew netflix even though they don't watch it. They might buy chocolates and flowers and appear to be the perfect spouse. And they could still be porking someone behind their spouse's back. Looking at this as a sign of a cheaters thinking is like saying "almost all cheaters wear pants. Wearing pants=cheating. I better avoid being in a relationship with someone that wears pants."

 

My husband forgot when I was visiting my parents this summer to pvr my favorite tv show. He hates the show. According to this logic of "early" signs he is right on track for cheating.

 

But, As I was thinking even if he doesn't admit it, DK is in year one of recovery. So of course tiny things will cause him to trigger. Less expectation for him to be logical about it as his emotions, even if he didn't realize it, are still going to be playing havoc with him. And he is in high alert mode on her behaviour. The affair is still fresh in his mind so of course every wrong thing she does will still be about the fact she cheated. Pretty normal. It will take time for him to realize that every thing she does that he doesn't like isn't "wayward" behaviour and doesn't need to be labeled as such. Her mistakes will stop being connected to her affair.

[Selfish]

What do YOU think wayward thinking is, then? Seems to me there isn't a proper definition that people can agree on?

Wayward thinking is engaging someone who is not your spouse in ways that cross boundaries. It is things i said, like "what he doesn't know won't hurt him." I do think people can start down the path of wayward thinking weather emotionally or sexually, and snap themselves back. BUt many don't. It is a STRONG sense of self entitlement to enjoy what you can. A person who forgets something because it wasn't a priority to them is a long long long ways from a person who disregards their partner's feelings in everything. But for true wayward thinking it involves a third party outside of the marriage. Because that is what makes infidelity different from just basic selfishness and carelessness that can affect many marriages.

 

There is no one thought process that leads to cheating. There is no one character type that a poster can be made of to warn all would be suitors away. And you most certainly can't accuse your spouse of being wayward because they forget to pick up your favourite snacks from the store.

 

My wayward behaviour = flirting and enjoying the attention of a man that was not my husband. Lack of self control because it "felt so good". Indulging in my feelings and not considering the utter devastation my actions were causing.

 

Not my wayward behaviour = When I am extremely frustrated with the kids and then become cranky with my husband. When I forget to call the power company even thought I said I would. My pants.

[DbleBetrayal]

YOu can't identify cheating by forgetting to renew netflix or having an argument. That is just silly. Nobody has a crystal ball. If every mistake or selfish act is viewed as a sign of future infidelity then every single one of us are on the track to be a cheater. You are very wayward yourself in your behaviour. And then of course there are the people who are attentive and do remember to renew netflix even though they don't watch it. They might buy chocolates and flowers and appear to be the perfect spouse. And they could still be porking someone behind their spouse's back. Looking at this as a sign of a cheaters thinking is like saying "almost all cheaters wear pants. Wearing pants=cheating. I better avoid being in a relationship with someone that wears pants."

 

My husband forgot when I was visiting my parents this summer to pvr my favorite tv show. He hates the show. According to this logic of "early" signs he is right on track for cheating.

 

But, As I was thinking even if he doesn't admit it, DK is in year one of recovery. So of course tiny things will cause him to trigger. Less expectation for him to be logical about it as his emotions, even if he didn't realize it, are still going to be playing havoc with him. And he is in high alert mode on her behaviour. The affair is still fresh in his mind so of course every wrong thing she does will still be about the fact she cheated. Pretty normal. It will take time for him to realize that every thing she does that he doesn't like isn't "wayward" behaviour and doesn't need to be labeled as such. Her mistakes will stop being connected to her affair.

 

Maybe it's not just centered around potential other men on the side, though that is what brought some other issues to light. I mean, it's not about the netflix subscription I don't believe. Maybe there was other things that needed fixing that wasn't centered just around cheating. I mean, perhaps there was just a general lack of respect. Might have nothing to do with cheating at all. But it's just anther area within in the marriage that needed looking at. It's all connected. Being more mindful and caring in general. Just tightening up the screws.

 

Maybe it's not just about "wayward thinking", but basic care. It's all interconnected anyway, whatever you label it. No harm in improving communication. Maybe nothing can clearly identify cheating behaviours, but a general overall improvement in basic care and communication is always a good start. Sometimes the most basic things that we tend to neglect can prevent sh** hitting the fan.

[Zenstudent]

YOu can't identify cheating by forgetting to renew netflix or having an argument. That is just silly. Nobody has a crystal ball. If every mistake or selfish act is viewed as a sign of future infidelity then every single one of us are on the track to be a cheater. You are very wayward yourself in your behaviour. And then of course there are the people who are attentive and do remember to renew netflix even though they don't watch it. They might buy chocolates and flowers and appear to be the perfect spouse. And they could still be porking someone behind their spouse's back. Looking at this as a sign of a cheaters thinking is like saying "almost all cheaters wear pants. Wearing pants=cheating. I better avoid being in a relationship with someone that wears pants."

Do you believe that wearing pants is a component leading to betrayal? Could selfish and entitled thinking be a component?

My husband forgot when I was visiting my parents this summer to pvr my favorite tv show. He hates the show. According to this logic of "early" signs he is right on track for cheating.

Has he been cheating on you before?

But, As I was thinking even if he doesn't admit it, DK is in year one of recovery. So of course tiny things will cause him to trigger. Less expectation for him to be logical about it as his emotions, even if he didn't realize it, are still going to be playing havoc with him. And he is in high alert mode on her behaviour. The affair is still fresh in his mind so of course every wrong thing she does will still be about the fact she cheated. Pretty normal. It will take time for him to realize that every thing she does that he doesn't like isn't "wayward" behaviour and doesn't need to be labeled as such. Her mistakes will stop being connected to her affair.

Either I'm not very good at explaining what I mean, or you are deliberately misinterpretating what I try to point out.

[Arieswoman]

All,

Just my 2 penneth.

 

I honestly believe my exH did not set out to cheat, and I don't believe he had a "cheater's mindset" (not at first anyway).

 

He felt sorry for a female employee who was having problems and it began from there.

He cheated because the opportunity was there and he had poor boundaries and poor coping mechanisms. He was also conflict avoidant.

I have wondered also if he was a narcissist, but I dislike putting labels on people as I think it is often an attempt to excuse bad behaviour/poor choices.

 

There was nothing different going on in our marriage at the time. The difference externally was the presence of this new employee at his place or work.

 

He was totally responsible for his decision to cheat and there was nothing I could have done about it.

[No Limit]

Affair > marriage. It's easy as that. Whether this thinking lasts long-term is another story and absolutely individual.

[DAO]

Wayward thinking is engaging someone who is not your spouse in ways that cross boundaries. It is things i said, like "what he doesn't know won't hurt him." I do think people can start down the path of wayward thinking weather emotionally or sexually, and snap themselves back. BUt many don't. It is a STRONG sense of self entitlement to enjoy what you can. A person who forgets something because it wasn't a priority to them is a long long long ways from a person who disregards their partner's feelings in everything. But for true wayward thinking it involves a third party outside of the marriage. Because that is what makes infidelity different from just basic selfishness and carelessness that can affect many marriages.

 

There is no one thought process that leads to cheating. There is no one character type that a poster can be made of to warn all would be suitors away. And you most certainly can't accuse your spouse of being wayward because they forget to pick up your favourite snacks from the store.

 

My wayward behaviour = flirting and enjoying the attention of a man that was not my husband. Lack of self control because it "felt so good". Indulging in my feelings and not considering the utter devastation my actions were causing.

 

Not my wayward behaviour = When I am extremely frustrated with the kids and then become cranky with my husband. When I forget to call the power company even thought I said I would. My pants.

 

I agree with DKT3.

His example is a prime description of wayward thinking.

Lack of awareness is common for all WS ,and because of it,WS creates his/her own perception.That perception becomes WS reality ,which is not victims (BS,kids,etc)reality,and definitely not ultimate reality.

As perception is shaped by learning ,memory ,expectation and attention, it is clearly obvious that WS did not met DKT3 expectations.So in DKT3 and lovin case, the good thing is they both recognise it as problem and work on it.

If we look DKT3's example in pre affair light it is obvious that one partner showing lack of awareness (and as consequence one partner expectation or need is not met) and to see this just as selfish is wrong.This attitude will lead to justifying any wrong doing and if there is not communication about this issue,the relationship will suffer.If a person without lack of awareness gets away with many "small" things , how that person can recognise "big"problem.

[autumnnight]

I'll pose this question.

 

If lovingDKT had asked DKT to please renew a subscription, if he said he would, and if he forgot because he doesn't watch netflix, what kind of thinking would that be? If there was something that was important to lovingDKT that DKT did not show "awareness" of, would that be wayward thinking? Or is it only a wayward spouse who can show wayward thinking? Or are some of us just grasping as always for proof that anyone who cheats came from the womb defective?

[Zenstudent]

I think LovingDKT is very smart to recognize the thought patterns that allowed her to cheat. Had she had DKT's interests in mind when she decided to cheat, it wouldn't have happened. And the risk of marriage vs. expectation of the affair would have been a totally different equation.

 

The idea that infidelity just happened and that nothing could have been done about untill it was too late, is a quite fatalistic view on life. It IS possible to prevent one self from cheating, IMHO.

[gettingstronger]

^^^THATS wayward thinking- to compared forgetting to renew Netflix to breaking vows-

 

Now, I do not believe WS came from the womb damaged, but Lovin has fully accepted what she has done and really I do not see posts like the example above in closely in line with either of their beliefs on the matter-JMO

[DKT3]

I'll pose this question.

 

If lovingDKT had asked DKT to please renew a subscription, if he said he would, and if he forgot because he doesn't watch netflix, what kind of thinking would that be? If there was something that was important to lovingDKT that DKT did not show "awareness" of, would that be wayward thinking? Or is it only a wayward spouse who can show wayward thinking? Or are some of us just grasping as always for proof that anyone who cheats came from the womb defective?

 

That's a good question. I will pose it back at you, if you owed a store and you caught a guy stealing wouldn't you watch him close the next time he came in? Yet you wouldn't watch others?

 

Facts remain she cheated, she displayed this way of thinking mostly around the time she was engaged in the affair. Keep in mind we had been together 15 years by that time.

 

Call it what you will, wayward thinking or not, fair or not. Its all part of the price paid.

 

All in all, I think many have missed the point of the netflix example, I was in no way attacking her, I was, and am proud of what I see as her progress. In all honesty its about how I feel safe and comfortable with her, what my views of her thinking is. Whatever others think of it its me that has to live with and accept her. I have my expectation of her as she does with me. No matter what or how others view it. I'm proud that she caught it, that's she gets it, and understands what I need from her. I give her that same respect.

[fellini]

I'd have to agree that trying to create a list or taxonomy of "wayward" thinking seems a bit "light" as a task. Like anything, I think things that matter need to be embedded in a clear context so that they simply don't result in the kind of generalisations that tend to end up being impossible to work with.

 

If I had to speak about wayward thinking, which Im not sure is a useful tool, but seems like an interesting thing to try, my first premise would be that wayward thinking does not lay in the realm of thoughts per se (laziness, forgetfullness, as above) but rather in one really important thing:

 

Wayward thinking begins in the MEANING we MAKE from external stimuli. It is HOW we interpret sensory input, not that we have it.

 

I can walk down the street, see an attractive woman. (This is not wayward thinking)

 

I can walk down the street, and smile and create an instant fantasy making love to this woman (We are really on the verge of wayward thinking here)

 

I can walk down the street, and smile at an attractive woman, and when she smiles BACK at me TELL MYSELF that she is thinking the same as me, and feel the rush of emotion I CREATED by my own INTERNAL response to my thoughts about her. Now I am thinking like a wayward.

 

Maybe not the greatest example, but the point is clear: what separates a wayward thinker (feeler) is how they choose to respond to and construct MEANING through ordinary encounters. Including how they choose to interpret encounters in which people "come on" to them.

[thirtysomethingteen]

That's a good question. I will pose it back at you, if you owed a store and you caught a guy stealing wouldn't you watch him close the next time he came in? Yet you wouldn't watch others?

 

Facts remain she cheated, she displayed this way of thinking mostly around the time she was engaged in the affair. Keep in mind we had been together 15 years by that time.

 

Call it what you will, wayward thinking or not, fair or not. Its all part of the price paid.

 

All in all, I think many have missed the point of the netflix example, I was in no way attacking her, I was, and am proud of what I see as her progress. In all honesty its about how I feel safe and comfortable with her, what my views of her thinking is. Whatever others think of it its me that has to live with and accept her. I have my expectation of her as she does with me. No matter what or how others view it. I'm proud that she caught it, that's she gets it, and understands what I need from her. I give her that same respect.

 

I get this - it's not about Netflix (not that I don't love my Netflix, LOL) but about taking responsibility for one's mistakes instead of making excuses and/or blameshifting.

 

When I returned from my trip last month I was none too pleased when I exited the airport and did not find my H waiting outside for him. I called his cell and it went right to VM which meant he hadn't even left the house yet (we have crappy reception at home). I was cranky and super uncomfortable (not surprising considering I was pregnant though we didn't know it at the time) and just jumped in a cab.

 

I seethed the whole $75 ride home imagining the list of excuses I'd likely be given, and thought to myself that all I wanted him to do was 1) apologize 2) admit he effed up WITHOUT making excuses 3) tell me what he would do differently next time so it wouldn't happen again, and 4) offer to make it up to me.

 

Sure enough when I got home he initially started with the excuses (the airline's website said my flight hadn't even landed yet, blah blah blah) but then it's like a lightbulb went on and he stopped making excuses and took full responsibility. He gave me the $75 I spent out of his spending money and took me to my favorite restaurant for dinner to apologize. And he pledged that from now on he will be at the airport a half hour before my plane is due to land, regardless of what the damn airline website says or doesn't say. A few years ago none of these things would have happened.

[Selfish]

I get this - it's not about Netflix (not that I don't love my Netflix, LOL) but about taking responsibility for one's mistakes instead of making excuses and/or blameshifting.

 

When I returned from my trip last month I was none too pleased when I exited the airport and did not find my H waiting outside for him. I called his cell and it went right to VM which meant he hadn't even left the house yet (we have crappy reception at home). I was cranky and super uncomfortable (not surprising considering I was pregnant though we didn't know it at the time) and just jumped in a cab.

 

I seethed the whole $75 ride home imagining the list of excuses I'd likely be given, and thought to myself that all I wanted him to do was 1) apologize 2) admit he effed up WITHOUT making excuses 3) tell me what he would do differently next time so it wouldn't happen again, and 4) offer to make it up to me.

 

Sure enough when I got home he initially started with the excuses (the airline's website said my flight hadn't even landed yet, blah blah blah) but then it's like a lightbulb went on and he stopped making excuses and took full responsibility. He gave me the $75 I spent out of his spending money and took me to my favorite restaurant for dinner to apologize. And he pledged that from now on he will be at the airport a half hour before my plane is due to land, regardless of what the damn airline website says or doesn't say. A few years ago none of these things would have happened.

 

But that isn't what happened in this case at all. She didn't make an excuse. An excuse would have been "I was so busy it completely slipped my mind." The truth was what she said. But saying it she realized how selfish the "truth" was and apologized I am assuming for forgetting about something because it wasn't important to her. So either the wayward thinking in DK's mind is her not caring about netflix or it was being honest.

 

And DK, I agree and said a few times you are in hypersensitive mode. So every wrong things she does is still going to be about the affair. You are still in the early stages of reconciliation.

 

Wayward thinking involves a third person in the marriage and/or the defense and excuse of having that third party. BEcause wayward is just the nice way to say cheater. so her forgetting netflix because it wasn't important to her and then saying so is "cheater thinking." Ummm, we are all doomed. Or, if the person hasn't cheated then it is just being selfish as we all are. Not one person who posts here hasn't made excuses, been selfish, or forgot something. And just because they or those that have in the past do these things doesn't mean they are in the mind set of a cheater. That is a HUGE leap.

 

I think it was good she saw her selfisness, I think it was a quick catch. I think it is a bigger deal to DK or he wouldn't have mentioned it like his stuff being sold, the sauce and other road bumps they have. I just think over use of the "wayward" thinking is really just mindset to play the A card.

 

all you have to do is replace the word with "cheater" and you can see it is too strong of a term to use for the small things.

[Lovebug66]

I got the Netflix example too, and I agree with TST above me that it is the blame shifting, or not taking responsibility for something you said you would.

 

I had the same kind of experience a few weeks ago. My H couldn't find his keys before work. He blamed me that I had them last so I helped him search. After about ten minutes I remembered I didn't have them last, he did, and he found them immediately once I said I didn't. He didn't say sorry for blaming you, sorry I woke you up so rudely on your one day to sleep in, nothing. Then joked about it later but still didn't accept any responsibility or say sorry. When I said my feelings were hurt he didn't apologize for it, he started making excuses like I was tired, I didn't remember blah blah blah, still no sorry or any thought of my feelings, just explanations and excuses. And yeah, it sucked and made me think, hmmm, you've really changed haven't you

 

I think that's wayward thinking. It's all about me me me, and I don't care about your side of it. Lovin stopped herself when she heard the me me mes coming out. It's a huge difference between telling someone "shoot, I forgot, I'm sorry" and "well I don't watch it so I wasn't thinking about it". One is taking responsibility for the action, the other is its not important to ME so what's the big deal?

 

I didn't take it as an attack on lovin either. Good job lovin, I think it's a great example that you are growing

[Selfish]

I got the Netflix example too, and I agree with TST above me that it is the blame shifting, or not taking responsibility for something you said you would.

 

I had the same kind of experience a few weeks ago. My H couldn't find his keys before work. He blamed me that I had them last so I helped him search. After about ten minutes I remembered I didn't have them last, he did, and he found them immediately once I said I didn't. He didn't say sorry for blaming you, sorry I woke you up so rudely on your one day to sleep in, nothing. Then joked about it later but still didn't accept any responsibility or say sorry. When I said my feelings were hurt he didn't apologize for it, he started making excuses like I was tired, I didn't remember blah blah blah, still no sorry or any thought of my feelings, just explanations and excuses. And yeah, it sucked and made me think, hmmm, you've really changed haven't you

 

I think that's wayward thinking. It's all about me me me, and I don't care about your side of it. Lovin stopped herself when she heard the me me mes coming out. It's a huge difference between telling someone "shoot, I forgot, I'm sorry" and "well I don't watch it so I wasn't thinking about it". One is taking responsibility for the action, the other is its not important to ME so what's the big deal?

 

I didn't take it as an attack on lovin either. Good job lovin, I think it's a great example that you are growing

Your situation once again isn't even close to what dk described as wayward thinking. Read his story again and replace "wayward thinking" with "cheaters thinking". If a person starts calling every selfish thing their spouse does cheaters actions or cheaters thinkings they are making every thing about the affair and keeping the affair label firmly on their spouse. It is good to see a person grow and become a better person. That goes for everyone who has cheated or not. But no one can be the perfect spouse. And no one can expect to have the perfect spouse.

[DKT3]

Your situation once again isn't even close to what dk described as wayward thinking. Read his story again and replace "wayward thinking" with "cheaters thinking". If a person starts calling every selfish thing their spouse does cheaters actions or cheaters thinkings they are making every thing about the affair and keeping the affair label firmly on their spouse. It is good to see a person grow and become a better person. That goes for everyone who has cheated or not. But no one can be the perfect spouse. And no one can expect to have the perfect spouse.

 

Absolutely not. Wayward thinking doesn't always mean cheater. Thirtysomethingteen is a perfect example of that. I thing she would agree, that during her flirt with infidelity she had some wayward thinking, in my opinion she still does to a degree because she believes its ok to remain "friendly" with the guy she about cheated with.

 

Not every step is a big step, some are small yet heads the same direction. The idea of this may be harder for a WS to grasp. Like me put it like this, if I were a drunk who quit drinking but still would stop by the bar everyday, buy a drink then not drink does it mean I'm still a drunk? No, but it sure as hell means I'm thinking like one.

 

Selfish behavior and wayward behavior are like peanut butter and jelly both can stand alone but together......

[Selfish]

Absolutely not. Wayward thinking doesn't always mean cheater. Thirtysomethingteen is a perfect example of that. I thing she would agree, that during her flirt with infidelity she had some wayward thinking, in my opinion she still does to a degree because she believes its ok to remain "friendly" with the guy she about cheated with.

 

Not every step is a big step, some are small yet heads the same direction. The idea of this may be harder for a WS to grasp. Like me put it like this, if I were a drunk who quit drinking but still would stop by the bar everyday, buy a drink then not drink does it mean I'm still a drunk? No, but it sure as hell means I'm thinking like one.

 

Selfish behavior and wayward behavior are like peanut butter and jelly both can stand alone but together......

Wayward spouse is a cheating spouse. Wayward thinking is thinking that justifies or minimizes said cheating. It is the cheaters thinking.

 

Everything else is selfish thinking. You are just making up stuff now because you don't like the idea that you labled something so minor with a pretty big thing. Cheater thinking. Wayward is just the "nice" word used in this contect for cheaters. People on here or touched by infidelity don't see the word wayward and think someone off the right path. They think. cheater. it is what the term means in this context.

 

Your example of thirty is wayward thinking because she is keeping that potential third party close to her. That is still justifying having a person she thought about being involved with close for whatever reason. Wayward.

 

forgetting netflix because it wasn't important to her? not so much.

[Selfish]

So let's make this really simple what I mean. First of all as I established. In this place and setting and those involved with infidelity wayward is another word for cheater. A person can start having cheater thinking before actually cheating. But in order for it to be cheater thinking it has to be about, well cheating.

 

So Loving forgot to renew netflix. She forgot because it isn't something she watches and therefore wasn't important to her. this was "wayward/cheater" thinking in your mind,

 

You forget to renew netflix. You forget because it isn't something you watch and isn't important to you. This is "selfish" thinking in your mind because you have never cheated.

 

so, in the end you are labeling her negative actions and thinking stil as being cheater/wayward. You are still in the early stages of recovery and simply have not got to the place that selfish behaviour is just selfish behaviour again. Do you see a time in the future where that will be?

[Lovebug66]

Selfish,

 

I could be way off here, but I think you are missing that it wasn't about not renewing Netflix, it was about the reaction to it. We all screw up, and it's not if we screw up or not, it's how we handle our screw ups. Do we take responsibility or do we brush it off. Lovin brushed it off, then knew right away she did and corrected herself. That's awesome in my book.

 

I get that you don't like the label of wayward thinking. I can understand why. I have been around a lot of 12 step meetings the last few years and they label selfish thinking as alcoholic, addict or sick thinking, so the term wayward thinking doesn't bother me. To me, it is a reminder that this type of thinking is going to lead me right down the road to my worst point, and I don't want that. It's used for all kinds of selfish thinking, not just regarding alcohol, because selfish thinking leads to justifications which leads to where you started.

 

Is it harsh? I guess you could take it that way. Or you could wear the recovering part proudly. When I first started it seemed strange someone could say "I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic" and think what's there to be so grateful about? Wouldn't it be better to have never been one in the first place? Not put yourself and your loved ones thru hell? Now having been thru hell and coming out the other side better, I am proud to wear the label recovering codependent. Some people might judge me because of the codependent part, but just as many (I think more) respect me for the work I have put in to change. The same can be said for anyone who has acted out in the past but bettered themself from it. You can choose to focus on the negative or the positive connotations in a label. Just something for you to think about.

[lovinDKT3]

But that isn't what happened in this case at all. She didn't make an excuse. An excuse would have been "I was so busy it completely slipped my mind." The truth was what she said. But saying it she realized how selfish the "truth" was and apologized I am assuming for forgetting about something because it wasn't important to her. So either the wayward thinking in DK's mind is her not caring about netflix or it was being honest.

 

And DK, I agree and said a few times you are in hypersensitive mode. So every wrong things she does is still going to be about the affair. You are still in the early stages of reconciliation.

 

Wayward thinking involves a third person in the marriage and/or the defense and excuse of having that third party. BEcause wayward is just the nice way to say cheater. so her forgetting netflix because it wasn't important to her and then saying so is "cheater thinking." Ummm, we are all doomed. Or, if the person hasn't cheated then it is just being selfish as we all are. Not one person who posts here hasn't made excuses, been selfish, or forgot something. And just because they or those that have in the past do these things doesn't mean they are in the mind set of a cheater. That is a HUGE leap.

 

I think it was good she saw her selfisness, I think it was a quick catch. I think it is a bigger deal to DK or he wouldn't have mentioned it like his stuff being sold, the sauce and other road bumps they have. I just think over use of the "wayward" thinking is really just mindset to play the A card.

 

all you have to do is replace the word with "cheater" and you can see it is too strong of a term to use for the small things.

 

I don't believe that wayward thinking can be limited to interactions with a third person.

 

About the netflix, I didn't forget. Honestly it was on my list just hadn't got to it. I also don't think it was really wayward thinking. Now, the comment I made when he asked me made it appear to be.

 

Selfish, I don't think your really hearing the concerns here from the betrayed spouses, many of whom in ways may see things as your own BS may. You're so willing and ready to defend these actions, I know its because you can identify with them. Here is the thing when it comes to R and overcoming infidelity, what our spouses see or believe is reality. I can't tell him how my actions make him feel along these lines. He feels that during my affair I put the AP above our family. I now with all I am that I didn't, but how do I tell him not to feel I did? I risked everything so its fair for him to feel that way. This netflix thing is a small step in that direction for him. Not that I hadn't done it yet (done now btw) but the fact that I was thinking because I didn't watch it, it was somehow less important. Everyone else watches, in fact it was DD that stayed in his ear about it.

 

In the end, we can't tell or dictate to our partners how to feel about things because we feel differently. His perception is his reality, and my perceptions can't change how he feels about things I've said or done.

[DbleBetrayal]

Holy crap, just reading all your posts, Selfish... bloody exhausting. You just don't get it. Phew!

[Selfish]

I don't believe that wayward thinking can be limited to interactions with a third person.

 

About the netflix, I didn't forget. Honestly it was on my list just hadn't got to it. I also don't think it was really wayward thinking. Now, the comment I made when he asked me made it appear to be.

 

Selfish, I don't think your really hearing the concerns here from the betrayed spouses, many of whom in ways may see things as your own BS may. You're so willing and ready to defend these actions, I know its because you can identify with them. Here is the thing when it comes to R and overcoming infidelity, what our spouses see or believe is reality. I can't tell him how my actions make him feel along these lines. He feels that during my affair I put the AP above our family. I now with all I am that I didn't, but how do I tell him not to feel I did? I risked everything so its fair for him to feel that way. This netflix thing is a small step in that direction for him. Not that I hadn't done it yet (done now btw) but the fact that I was thinking because I didn't watch it, it was somehow less important. Everyone else watches, in fact it was DD that stayed in his ear about it.

 

In the end, we can't tell or dictate to our partners how to feel about things because we feel differently. His perception is his reality, and my perceptions can't change how he feels about things I've said or done.

 

Holy crap, just reading all your posts, Selfish... bloody exhausting. You just don't get it. Phew!

 

I believe learning to change "harmful" selfish behaviour is very critical to a marriage. I have in no way downplayed that. And DblBetrayal just because you don't "agree" with my posts doesn't mean "I don't get it". It isn't that "I" don't get it. Oh I get it, perfectly. I just don't agree with every selfish or slightly selfish action done by the WS being labeled as "wayward thinking" When it is unrelated to the affair except by extreme mental gymnastic sand a strong need to be right. Selfish thinking will never be gone from the WS but wayward thinking can be.

 

People's reality can be skewered. That is how some people end up in affair. YOu don't have to accept your partner's reality. That is just a side note.

 

But, I was speaking based on DK being 6 years past DDay. And while there is a cushion between the raw emotion normally felt during the first year of reconciliation because of the separation, divorce, and chance to be single again and so his wild oats with who he wanted conscience free, The romantic relationship itself is just being rebuilt now. So Lovin is under the microscope like the average WS is in those first few years. So every action IS a big deal. But, DK is not as emotionally fragile as a BS who has just found out of a betrayal and therefore does not need to be handled with kid gloves. But the relationship itself is.

 

If they are back together for six years, and have rebuilt a good marriage then I imagine every little slip up or lapse done by lovin will no longer be called "wayward/cheater thinking."

 

I know if my husband labled every mistake I make or selfish moment "wayward/cheating" after my being out from under the microscope this long I would feel like he was pulling the A card to keep me walking in step.

 

There should be a difference in labels and thinking 6 years into recovery as opposed to 1 year to show that healing and reconciliation is in deed progressing. And a new untained relationship is fast replacing the old. But DK is a long ways from 6 years.

[autumnnight]

I can see the point I think finally. Anytime a spouse (whether BS OR WS) thinks of themselves instead of their partner, that can be described as wayward thinking. Correct? You don't have to have actually HAD an affair to have wayward thinking. Otherwise we are just playing the "My selfish thinking is not as bad as your selfish thinking" game.