Risk of marriage vs expectation of the affair

[Ronni_W]

I'm absolutely sure there was an element of revenge in her affair. In fact it all started with her being about as mad at me as she ever had.

DKT3,

Was this your mind starting to wrap itself around something 'new'...something that gets you to feeling closer to a fuller understanding? Or at least, closer than you have felt before now?

 

I'm asking because, if so, I'd like to congratulate and celebrate with you!

[Owl6118]

DKT3, I think there are two really important things brought up in this thread already. I would add one more.

 

1. Velvette's idea that inability to value others begins and ends with an inability to value ourselves. Lovin had lost her sense of her own value. It seems she may have been looking for outside sources for it for a long time.

 

2. The second idea I would insert here is the same one I gave to OverIt75 a few days back, the one about affairs beginning as failures of empathy. I wrote to her:

 

"When we are functioning as well-integrated people with a well-functioning emotional range, our sense of empathy is sharpest for those closest to us. A very clear statement of this is the old cliche, "cut him or her, I bleed." When you first bonded with your husband and I imagine for many years thereafter, this would have been and I am sure was true for you too. The thought of an affair would have been repulsive, because the very thought of it would have caused you to feel, like an advance echo, his pain, if you were to betray him. Imagining his pain would have caused you pain. Cut him, you bleed.

 

In an affair the first thing that happens, long before other boundaries are crossed, is that natural flux of empathy for your life partner gets attenuated. ... You still think of him being cut--that after all is why affairs are kept hidden--but you don't FEEL it. You think of him being cut (if he finds out that is, which you put a lot of effort into ensuring won't happen) but you don't bleed at the very thought. This is the first and greatest betrayal, of your true best self and of your partner. Its the self-betrayal from which the others flow."

 

In many cases that sense of empathy gets transferred to the affair partner. In Lovin's case, I think it got transferred to herself. She got to a place where she felt only her own pain and no longer had any empathy for you or yours.

 

3. And here you come to the third thing, Ronni and Striver's idea that the emotional driver both during the affair and during the "cold" or "failed" recovery between DDay and when you filed was resentment. Resentment of you in particular for failing to fill for her the hole in her own sense of worth. I think Lovin's affair was an act of rage not love, first at herself and a very close second at you.

 

You take these three ideas together, and I think you are probably getting close to as complete an understanding of Lovin's affair as anyone will ever have--including possibly even Lovin herself.

 

The AP was not chosen for his worth. He was chosen because interacting with him had a temporary anesthetic effect on her pain. And, I am sorry to say, because the idea of an affair and your hurt should you discover it was, at the time, itself emotionally satisfying. This was not a love affair. It was a pain and anger affair. And in that scenario the AP really was nothing more than a convenient prop, of no worth on his own.

 

DKT, I think at heart you are a Romantic. I mean that not as a compliment or a criticism, but as a way of identifying the kind of "master narrative" you have for relationships. I think your emotional landscape is such that "torn between two loves," as you were between Lovin and Office Girl, is the kind of dilemma that makes emotional sense to you. The kind you can accept.

 

In Shakespearean terms, this was not a romance. It was a revenge tragedy.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Owl6118

[Furious]

The other day in MC we finally reached the subject of why my wife would risk our marriage being that she had no desire for a "REAL" relationship with OM.

 

I have mentioned this many times here and some BS's seem to think the fact that lovin didn't enjoy sex nor was ever convincing herself that she was "in love" with OM that it somehow made it easier for me to R with her.

 

I can honestly say that when it all happened I was hurt and angry, yet when I finally understood that her feelings for and expectations of OM were basically nothing it put me into a rage. If it meant nothing why do it? I sometimes feel I could better understand her motives if she were having fantasies about a life together or she had some deeper connection with him. That may seem odd to some.

 

Our therapist has told me many times that he fears my drive to understand it all in every detail will be our undoning. He says that sometimes its best to except what's happened without having to understand why it happened. He says her motives could have shifted on a daily or even hourly bases. I guess I just question my worth to her at the time if she was willing to risk it all without any desire to actaully be with OM.

 

Not really a question, really just looking for an open debate that will help me shed some light.

 

 

Sometimes the most basic and simplistic explanation is the hardest to wrap your mind around. Many cheaters are not be deep or think things through, it's as simple as that. Cheating is a shallow and selfish thing that does not require more than opportunity and immature justification. I really think your wife believed she was not risking anything, as she believed she'd not get caught.

 

I think you're looking for something deeper than it really was. I think you cannot digest that your wife simply made an immature and selfish choice. I think you cannot wrap your mind around how someone so smart acted out stupidly.

 

I believe Lovin has grown, and she's not that person anymore. I think she's learned a hard lesson, and unfortunately it took hurting you and your family for her to grow up.

 

I think you're a man who is prideful and would take a bullet for your loved ones. it's a strong man that is willing to forgive and move on from the past. The future is in both your hands, you cannot change the past but you can make a difference in you future.

 

I really wish the best for you and Lovin, and your children and that beautiful baby on the way.

 

God bless

[DKT3]

Personally, if our MC suggested this, I'd be in the market for a new therapist.

 

I think the point of therapy is to help the couple come to a mutual understanding of some marital breakdowns individually and as a couple.

 

Just my two pennies.

 

He is actually really good, multiple PhD's 36 years as a MC the last 20 mostly dealing with infidelity.

 

His point wasn't accept it and get over it. Much like the subject of this thread it was more of a risk vs reward comment. Meaning what would be the reward of me being able to understand vs the risk of renewed resentment.

[Man Mountain Makino]

Not really a question, really just looking for an open debate that will help me shed some light.

 

I think the consummation of adulterous relationships are primarily functions of opportunity, and despite protests it has nothing to do with issues like 'trust.'

 

People should be careful to not put themselves in situations where the opportunity may present itself, especially if they are attracted to the other person in the dynamic.

 

Sex is fun, and illicit sex is more fun. Looking at things beyond this simple truth isn't productive. There often isn't much more to it than that.

[DKT3]

Did she drop him after your friend saw her and the OM in a town two hours away from yours?

 

From my understanding she had already gone NC several times by that point and had ended the PA months before that. After they were very LC.

[Selfish]

The thing is, Many people are unable to see something from a different POV that clashes with what they believe to be true. And nothing will change there mind on that. There are BS who can understand and get the disconnect between the marriage and the affair that occurs. They are no less hurt by it nor do they see understanding as saying it was okay. They just can have empathy even for a person in the wrong. I think that gives these people a step ahead in the process because they don't have to try to make the affair fit the way they think and feel. They accept that the waywards head was in a different place and they work on other issues. The main thing they accept is that sometimes a person can be so twisted in their logic and thinking during a season that even with hindsight there are certain things that can't be unraveled.

 

Sometimes accepting you will never fully understand because you have never been in that position is what it comes down to.

[DKT3]

DKT3, I think there are two really important things brought up in this thread already. I would add one more.

 

1. Velvette's idea that inability to value others begins and ends with an inability to value ourselves. Lovin had lost her sense of her own value. It seems she may have been looking for outside sources for it for a long time.

 

2. The second idea I would insert here is the same one I gave to OverIt75 a few days back, the one about affairs beginning as failures of empathy. I wrote to her:

 

"When we are functioning as well-integrated people with a well-functioning emotional range, our sense of empathy is sharpest for those closest to us. A very clear statement of this is the old cliche, "cut him or her, I bleed." When you first bonded with your husband and I imagine for many years thereafter, this would have been and I am sure was true for you too. The thought of an affair would have been repulsive, because the very thought of it would have caused you to feel, like an advance echo, his pain, if you were to betray him. Imagining his pain would have caused you pain. Cut him, you bleed.

 

In an affair the first thing that happens, long before other boundaries are crossed, is that natural flux of empathy for your life partner gets attenuated. ... You still think of him being cut--that after all is why affairs are kept hidden--but you don't FEEL it. You think of him being cut (if he finds out that is, which you put a lot of effort into ensuring won't happen) but you don't bleed at the very thought. This is the first and greatest betrayal, of your true best self and of your partner. Its the self-betrayal from which the others flow."

 

In many cases that sense of empathy gets transferred to the affair partner. In Lovin's case, I think it got transferred to herself. She got to a place where she felt only her own pain and no longer had any empathy for you or yours.

 

3. And here you come to the third thing, Ronni and Striver's idea that the emotional driver both during the affair and during the "cold" or "failed" recovery between DDay and when you filed was resentment. Resentment of you in particular for failing to fill for her the hole in her own sense of worth. I think Lovin's affair was an act of rage not love, first at herself and a very close second at you.

 

You take these three ideas together, and I think you are probably getting close to as complete an understanding of Lovin's affair as anyone will ever have--including possibly even Lovin herself.

 

The AP was not chosen for his worth. He was chosen because interacting with him had a temporary anesthetic effect on her pain. And, I am sorry to say, because the idea of an affair and your hurt should you discover it was, at the time, itself emotionally satisfying. This was not a love affair. It was a pain and anger affair. And in that scenario the AP really was nothing more than a convenient prop, of no worth on his own.

 

DKT, I think at heart you are a Romantic. I mean that not as a compliment or a criticism, but as a way of identifying the kind of "master narrative" you have for relationships. I think your emotional landscape is such that "torn between two loves," as you were between Lovin and Office Girl, is the kind of dilemma that makes emotional sense to you. The kind you can accept.

 

In Shakespearean terms, this was not a romance. It was a revenge tragedy.

 

Very good post here Owl.

 

My idea of a relationship is very black and white. I fully understand having a deep emotional connect with two people, however having that connection meant to me actually caring enough to do what's best for both. I could have maintained a relationship with both women, I don't know that I could handle it morally or emotionally.

[DKT3]

I think the consummation of adulterous relationships are primarily functions of opportunity, and despite protests it has nothing to do with issues like 'trust.'

 

People should be careful to not put themselves in situations where the opportunity may present itself, especially if they are attracted to the other person in the dynamic.

 

Sex is fun, and illicit sex is more fun. Looking at things beyond this simple truth isn't productive. There often isn't much more to it than that.

 

Yeah, but the affair wasn't all that sexual. Very little physical in the affair.

[DKT3]

The thing is, Many people are unable to see something from a different POV that clashes with what they believe to be true. And nothing will change there mind on that. There are BS who can understand and get the disconnect between the marriage and the affair that occurs. They are no less hurt by it nor do they see understanding as saying it was okay. They just can have empathy even for a person in the wrong. I think that gives these people a step ahead in the process because they don't have to try to make the affair fit the way they think and feel. They accept that the waywards head was in a different place and they work on other issues. The main thing they accept is that sometimes a person can be so twisted in their logic and thinking during a season that even with hindsight there are certain things that can't be unraveled.

 

Sometimes accepting you will never fully understand because you have never been in that position is what it comes down to.

 

I don't need to see it from her POV. Nor is this about WS vs BS, we are far pass that point. We are truly a WE, one team one relationship.

 

My issues is why do this with someone you don't care about enough to risk it for. Some of the comments have kinda comfirmed what I was thinking all along and that her affair was really more of a big FU to me. She actaully suggested this early on and I blow my lid.

 

It wasn't an FU in my face, but more of a FU for herself.

[jbrent890]

Ronni W & Striver

 

You both make very good points and I can see it in what happened.

 

I'm absolutely sure there was an element of revenge in her affair. In fact it all started with her being about as mad at me as she ever had.

 

You know I said this once and got torn apart by WSs. I don't mean to piss them off again, but I do think that does play a factor in cheating.

[sidney2718]

Sometimes I believe the WS says what they *think* we want to hear. You do open a very valid question, "Why risk it all if it meant nothing". It never means nothing. There are always motives to an affair, there is always a reason and those reasons are always rationalized by the risk.

 

I find affairs are like any kind of addiction. It rarely is about the sex, however the adrenaline of the risk. Every text, email, phone call... encounter is added to the high, the fantasy and the rush. There is always a craving for more and what the next phase will bring if it only ends with an EA and sometimes that is all the WS needs. One might not understand it unless the experience it themselves. Unless you are willing to go after the same experience you will always seek answers and none will ever be fully understood.

 

I agree with this. And I think that the sex involved plays an important role. That rush of having a new "partner" can mean a lot.

 

I say this because if sex were not a port of the rush gotten from the affair, there would not be a physical affair.

[sidney2718]

I understand HER why's in terms of how she got to the affair. I guess what I saying is why him, if she didn't see a future, in a fake one or even fantasy. I don't know, I just can wrap my mind around it.

 

Possibly because HE could be dropped if push came to shove. More, she probably figured that the affair would end itself after a while.

[FusionCutter]

Interesting topic. xMW always told me "I'm risking my marriage to see you."

 

It was a powerful hook to allow me to stay.

This was when I always had doubts she was serious with me, I would be reminded how she was taking this massive "risk"

 

However of course now I see she could say anything, since it was in secrecy. If light was everywhere I doubt she would feel the same.

[gettingstronger]

Oh my yes!!! I am also struggling to understand the how's. I am like you where I really do need to understand how he brought himself to risk us. In some ways I know I'll never understand because I'm just not wired like that. I'd never get to the point where cheating is an option. I'm a teacher and lots of men have that hot for teacher fantasy. I shut it down before it even gets past the first try.

 

My husband travels an insane amount and I have had every chance to cheat. I'd just never ever risk the security of my family or my marriage, among other things. He's only explanation is he never thought I'd find out and he was able to compartmentalize what he was doing and really didn't consider himself a cheater. That of course, brings up the next thing I strive to understand. How could you look me in the face and lie.

 

And then of course the explanation to that always leads to the next thing and the next thing I strive to understand. It's messy and I agree, my desire to understand the person I want to continue to commit to may be our undoing.

[Rainbowlove]

His point wasn't accept it and get over it. Much like the subject of this thread it was more of a risk vs reward comment. Meaning what would be the reward of me being able to understand vs the risk of renewed resentment.

 

I come from the school of thought that it has to be hashed out over and over and over again until both spouses are satisfied with their progress and what they've uncovered to reach perspective or are just done searching and trying.

 

If you are dissatisfied with your understanding, keep asking until you are satisfied or done asking.

 

As a wayward, I would welcome the questions, the probing, the attempts to get there together. It's not pretty, it's not easy, but if you are both willing to go there, go and revisit everything.

 

There is no new risk of resentment. There's only resentment.

 

And the reward of understanding is just that...the reward of understanding.

 

Keep digging together.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Rainbowlove

[dichotomy]

I don't know how to compare pains and what drives WW's to be with AP. Whats easier to get over - for you ...

 

In your case - I can't understand the feelings of doing it "for nothing" (because mine did). Maybe I kind of get it, maybe it would hurt more..but since I have not been in your shoes I can't say the grass is browner over there.

 

But I wonder if you could have remarried if indeed the sex was better with OM if he did trigger more intense feelings or ring her bells more...if we was the one with the porn sized dick...or he was the one to give her multiple O's she never could with you....see you can't change that - thats him and her chemistry.... But I feel since your wife was dealing with issues on her end (and general issues perhaps between you) those can be changed and have changed....

 

But I do understand completely for a while she had some emotional connection and felt she could open up to him more, that hurts ...

 

Again I don't know - I have not been in your shoes nor you in mine. Is doing it for nothing - or something - worse.

Edited December 6, 2014 by dichotomy

[Selfish]

The other day in MC we finally reached the subject of why my wife would risk our marriage being that she had no desire for a "REAL" relationship with OM.

 

I have mentioned this many times here and some BS's seem to think the fact that lovin didn't enjoy sex nor was ever convincing herself that she was "in love" with OM that it somehow made it easier for me to R with her.

 

I can honestly say that when it all happened I was hurt and angry, yet when I finally understood that her feelings for and expectations of OM were basically nothing it put me into a rage. If it meant nothing why do it? I sometimes feel I could better understand her motives if she were having fantasies about a life together or she had some deeper connection with him. That may seem odd to some.

 

Our therapist has told me many times that he fears my drive to understand it all in every detail will be our undoning. He says that sometimes its best to except what's happened without having to understand why it happened. He says her motives could have shifted on a daily or even hourly bases. I guess I just question my worth to her at the time if she was willing to risk it all without any desire to actaully be with OM.

 

Not really a question, really just looking for an open debate that will help me shed some light.

 

I gave you my opinion based on your first post. I guess I am confused over what you are hashing if it isn't what I said. You wanting a different answer then the one you got because it doesn't fit with how you think.

 

And, as she has admitted her affair had an element of F U because she had allowed resentment to build. (of course others have jumped in with there "that is the way it ALWAYS is.... no, no it isn't).

 

So is the problem that she was upset enough to risk her marriage and not care if it hurt you. Or is the problem the guy she chose? Or is the fact you think she actually wanted to have a secret one up on you without actually hurting you. And if you feel that this lovin' would never do such a thing again. Has really and truly learned from her past errors in judgement, and is going to not get to a place such as that. does it really matter again? Is that what you are weighing in your mind? *I do not know if lovin' truly feels any of these things

 

For instance. If you pee in someone's drink without there knowledge and they never know and drink it. YOu snicker secretly to yourself knowing something they don't. But have no desire for a multitude of reasons to tell them that they just drank there pee.

 

Honestly though, she seems to have answered every little question asked of her. More than once. And a lot of it is on here for you to read. So the question would seem to be that you either don't believe her, don't understand because as I have repeatedly said it isn't within you to see things from a perspective that doesn't line up with your own thinking. I guess maybe it just seems like the simple truth is not enough for you and you are trying to make it more complex.

 

People can not only have different emotions and thoughts from day to day, but they can even at the same time.

[Ronni_W]

My issues is why do this with someone you don't care about enough to risk it for. Some of the comments have kinda comfirmed what I was thinking all along and that her affair was really more of a big FU to me. She actaully suggested this early on and I blow my lid.

 

It wasn't an FU in my face, but more of a FU for herself.

DKT3,

Going by your post, then, her goal, by her own words that she said to you early on, was a big FU to you. For herself, she chose to accomplish that in this way with this guy. For herself, she wasn't in the mindset of "risking" but giving you a loud-and-clear "FU!"

 

A different way of looking at it is that there isn't an answer for, "Why did you risk our marriage/the life we'd built?"...because she never set out to do that; never had that in her head as an intention or a goal.

 

Even if you want her to have had that in her head, even if that will make it somehow easier - instead of it being all (or mostly) about much you had pissed her off - it still wasn't in her head that she was risking anything.

She had her goal, she achieved her goal. Whatever risks she had considered, were well within what she was willing to accept/tolerate...likely because she also knew she'd be successful at achieving her goal of giving you a big "FU!"

[DKT3]

DKT3,

Going by your post, then, her goal, by her own words that she said to you early on, was a big FU to you. For herself, she chose to accomplish that in this way with this guy. For herself, she wasn't in the mindset of "risking" but giving you a loud-and-clear "FU!"

 

A different way of looking at it is that there isn't an answer for, "Why did you risk our marriage/the life we'd built?"...because she never set out to do that; never had that in her head as an intention or a goal.

 

Even if you want her to have had that in her head, even if that will make it somehow easier - instead of it being all (or mostly) about much you had pissed her off - it still wasn't in her head that she was risking anything.

She had her goal, she achieved her goal. Whatever risks she had considered, were well within what she was willing to accept/tolerate...likely because she also knew she'd be successful at achieving her goal of giving you a big "FU!"

 

I don't know that one way is any better or less painful. She asked me that question "would it have been better if I loved him or wanted to be with him" my honest answer is I don't know. Yet in my mind I think for her it would have made it worth it for the risk, right?

 

Too much thinking? Maybe her affair was more about the state of the marriage at the time then it was about the OM. Not saying the marriage caused the affair, because marriages don't have affairs.

[Owl6118]

Maybe her affair was more about the state of the marriage at the time then it was about the OM. Not saying the marriage caused the affair, because marriages don't have affairs.

 

That seems to be the consensus of the house, brother. That, and the way it interacted with a long preexisting pattern of seeking validation from somewhere other than within.

[road]

I may be wrong because I don't know the stats on this, but to me, the majority of WSs, don't intend on leaving their BSs,

 

 

 

 

So true. To ask why is a waste of time. WW did the OM because she wanted to. Combined with her thinking that you will not catch her. So what you don't know you can not hurt you gives her the green light.

 

 

People justify doing all sorts of things. Doing 40 in a 30 mph. Coming to an almost full stop instead of a full stop. Selling loose cigarettes. Unarmed robbery. Sometimes one gets away. Sometimes one pays for it with their life.

 

 

The WW's take a risk assessment, value of the reward, and the ability to compartmentalize their mind.

 

 

To ask any WS why is a waste of time. How do you expect them to answer that the OM/OW made them wet/penis hard?

[road]

I understand HER why's in terms of how she got to the affair. I guess what I saying is why him, if she didn't see a future, in a fake one or even fantasy. I don't know, I just can wrap my mind around it.

 

 

 

Whether the OM chased your WW or WW chased the OM, or they sent feelers out and chased each other does not matter.

 

 

A WW does the OM because she wanted to have some extra fun. She was as most WS's are. She was not looking to divorce you just enjoying the attention and extra fun.

[road]

Yeah, but the affair wasn't all that sexual. Very little physical in the affair.

 

 

 

And how do you know this?

[Ronni_W]

I don't know that one way is any better or less painful. She asked me that question "would it have been better if I loved him or wanted to be with him" my honest answer is I don't know. Yet in my mind I think for her it would have made it worth it for the risk, right?

No, not necessarily "right", DKT3. Maybe only "right" in your mind, or in my mind, or in whoever else's mind...but not in her mind. (You can't understand her mind and its motivations if you just keep putting/projecting the stuff from your mind into her mind.)

 

The thing/motivation that made any and all risk worth it in HER mind, was to give you her big "FU!"

 

Too much thinking? Maybe her affair was more about the state of the marriage at the time then it was about the OM. Not saying the marriage caused the affair, because marriages don't have affairs.

Okay. Well...yeah. The marriage didn't cause the affair, no. The husband contributed to the wife's state of mind to the extent that she felt the desire to give him a big "FU!" She could have done that in all kinds of ways. She chose this way. In her mind, this was the "best" way; the ultimate way. That's all she wanted. Not to go fall in love with someone else, and/or get all emotionally wrapped up with someone else, and/or start fantasizing some fake future. Possibly even she selected this guy because she knew none of what she DID NOT want would happen with him...and that what she DID WANT would happen with him.

 

(I'm NOT making any judgment on adultery...just offering one outside/different view of what may have been going on. Only she knows, or ought know, for sure.)