Cheaters are BROKEN?!

[whichwayisup]

Your post didn't go over my head. I just think BS's like to justify what they did to make the marriage an absolute mess. The fact is, the first wrongs are a breaking of vows in themselves. It is the first offense. And the one that weakens the marriage in lots (but certainly not all) of cases. If you take away sex, emotional intimacy, physical affection, you are betraying your spouse and breaking your vows making the vows null and void. You (general) ignore that and make the affair the focus when most of the time it is just a symptom. There are cases where this is not the case but that is generally what i see, esp. on this forum.

 

In many cases, just ask many of the BS's who post their situations, were utterly shocked when there was a DDay. Many had good marriages and healthy sex lives. Not every affair is a result of marital issues or as some on here love to put all the blame on the BS for their WS's cheating ways, some WS's are just plain selfish and feel entitled to go and have an affair.

[WomenWubber]

There's no such a thing as right or wrong if you choose to live a life without boundaries. Unfortunately that's not posible if you choose to live in a society. You have to find a way fit in the system, where there are rules that everyone must follow. Humans and even some other animals (most mammals, I think) don't only have to survive, but also have to obey rules. If they don't, they are deemed as outcasts and that's a hard life to live. Sure, you live by your own rules, but you're also on your own.

 

Cheating is considered to be wrong/taboo in most places, because it's an enemy of society as it destroys families. It's just fair cheaters are considered broken as they're not fit to live among fellow human beings. However, cases in where diabolical crimes turn out to be aceptable in a society are not unknown of. If that happened, I think we could pretty much say that society was in the wrong and you were right all along.

[goodyblue]

In many cases, just ask many of the BS's who post their situations, were utterly shocked when there was a DDay. Many had good marriages and healthy sex lives. Not every affair is a result of marital issues or as some on here love to put all the blame on the BS for their WS's cheating ways, some WS's are just plain selfish and feel entitled to go and have an affai

 

No question this happens sometimes. Certainly not most of the time. And absolutely not what I see on this forum most of the time. The problem is, even if the bs thought everything.was good, it clearly wasn't was it, if their spouse is cheating. That kind of makes the marriage a big fat mess, doesn't it? WWU, you know my.story, my guy's ex was blind sided.

Even tho he had begged counseling, begged her go to AA, etc. So, was everything happy? Clearly not as they have been divorced for some time now. She STILL doesn't get that he was unhappy even tho he voiced it. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

 

I am not justifying it, what we did was incredibly wrong.and stupid. But what she did was equally so.

[beach]

There's no such a thing as right or wrong if you choose to live a life without boundaries. Unfortunately that's not posible if you choose to live in a society. You have to find a way fit in the system, where there are rules that everyone must follow. Humans and even some other animals (most mammals, I think) don't only have to survive, but also have to obey rules. If they don't, they are deemed as outcasts and that's a hard life to live. Sure, you live by your own rules, but you're also on your own.

 

Cheating is considered to be wrong/taboo in most places, because it's an enemy of society as it destroys families. It's just fair cheaters are considered broken as they're not fit to live among fellow human beings. However, cases in where diabolical crimes turn out to be aceptable in a society are not unknown of. If that happened, I think we could pretty much say that society was in the wrong and you were right all along.

 

It is a lack of boundaries.

 

Society really has little to do with it - it's a matter of honoring a vow or the promise that was made when they married.

 

Unless the cheater has been honest by changing the terms of the original agreement then the cheater is short changing the betrayed spouse from their truth of what the M has become (open).

 

A M based on lies isn't a marriage. It's a farce... Designed to hurt someone or many.

 

Realist3 has been honest but his married OW has not.

[WomenWubber]

It is a lack of boundaries.

 

Society really has little to do with it - it's a matter of honoring a vow or the promise that was made when they married.

 

Unless the cheater has been honest by changing the terms of the original agreement then the cheater is short changing the betrayed spouse from their truth of what the M has become (open).

 

A M based on lies isn't a marriage. It's a farce... Designed to hurt someone or many.

 

Realist3 has been honest but his married OW has not.

 

In my experience, it has.

 

I'm a man of my word, because I learned that's the right way. How did I learn the right way? From my parents, my friends, my teachers, etc. They have influenced into the man I am today.

 

Who teached them what's right and what's wrong? I could go on. I don't think anybody is born with the ability to judge. Society teaches us how to judge. Also it teaches us limitations and how to treat others and ourselves.

 

I can agree with your other thoughts, because those are values that were placed on me. Obviously I cannot be certain about people who have cheated on their spouses. Some of them have never learned about faithfulness, while others may have learned but still fell to their most low instincts (nobody is above this, Imo). There may a small number of them who are just unable to be faithful because of biological conditions.

 

My point is none of those justifications matter to society. In life, we are judged for our actions. To the great majority of people, a broken person is someone who is disabled and, for some reason, can't fit in like normal people do. Something must be wrong with that broken person.

 

Cheaters are labeled as 'selfish', 'scum', 'weak', and 'sociopathic' among many other unflattering titles. So yes, cheaters are and will be considered 'broken' individuals for a long time. But at the end of the day (and by this I mean at their death bed), the only person judging them... will be themselves. So they may as well learn to accept themselves with all their respective faults, instead of seeking validation from other people. By doing this, the day may come when even they can look at their past with no regrets and a smile on their faces.

[CrystalCastles]

As I stated, a person can make a poor choice (cheating) and mend their ways. It does not make them broken. It just makes them a person who made a poor decision.

 

Does that same logic apply to serial cheating?

 

I think its hard to label every cheater as one word. There are people I know who had a drunken ONS while in a relationship. There are people I know who go to marriage counseling, individual counseling and have been serially cheating for years despite that.

 

Your post didn't go over my head. I just think BS's like to justify what they did to make the marriage an absolute mess. The fact is, the first wrongs are a breaking of vows in themselves. It is the first offense. And the one that weakens the marriage in lots (but certainly not all) of cases. If you take away sex, emotional intimacy, physical affection, you are betraying your spouse and breaking your vows making the vows null and void. You (general) ignore that and make the affair the focus when most of the time it is just a symptom. There are cases where this is not the case but that is generally what i see, esp. on this forum.

 

I think it takes two to tango. Both people are involved in a marriage and it is the responsibility of both people to maintain the state of the marriage. You can't just blame the entire thing on the BS and assume the BS's problems give you a free pass to cheat.

 

Usually a person doesn't just one day up and stop having sex. Usually its due to other issues- issues with themselves, issues with their partner. If your spouse stops having sex with you, clearly they have a problem and clearly communication is required. You don't just go bang someone else to make up for the lack of sex in your life. And if communication doesn't work, and no counseling or anything you try works, you divorce.

 

Plus with kids in the picture, I can't imagine how a divorce could be worse for them than their parent cheating. My best friend's dad is a serial cheater. She was absolutely crushed when she found out- her whole family fell apart when that came to the surface. And now her parents are divorcing- so double whammy: cheating + divorce.

[goodyblue]

Does that same logic apply to serial cheating?

 

I think its hard to label every cheater as one word. There are people I know who had a drunken ONS while in a relationship. There are people I know who go to marriage counseling, individual counseling and have been serially cheating for years despite that.

 

 

 

I think it takes two to tango. Both people are involved in a marriage and it is the responsibility of both people to maintain the state of the marriage. You can't just blame the entire thing on the BS and assume the BS's problems give you a free pass to cheat.

 

Usually a person doesn't just one day up and stop having sex. Usually its due to other issues- issues with themselves, issues with their partner. If your spouse stops having sex with you, clearly they have a problem and clearly communication is required. You don't just go bang someone else to make up for the lack of sex in your life. And if communication doesn't work, and no counseling or anything you try works, you divorce.

 

Plus with kids in the picture, I can't imagine how a divorce could be worse for them than their parent cheating. My best friend's dad is a serial cheater. She was absolutely crushed when she found out- her whole family fell apart when that came to the surface. And now her parents are divorcing- so double whammy: cheating + divorce.

 

I can't possibly respond because not a single thing in your post relates to my situation. My guy went 12 years in a sexless marriage. He cheated once, with me. He left his marriage shortly after. Sorry i can't be of help.

[truncated]

it?

He is a very good man who made a bad decision. We are simply a better match and are very, very happy..

 

 

See, this is the type of logic used in A's that I will never ever understand or agree with.

 

How many times have ow/om and ws said that they didn't intend to get into the A, it just sort of happened. If we are to belive that ( I don't) then it's not just one bad decision, but a whole series. A whole series of choices made of lies by omission, deception and then outright blatant lies.

 

It wasn't a one off, it was a whole series of lies. This shows you that he can, and will, lie to get what he wants. The idea that you two being a good match will somehow change who he is is really difficult to understand. It sound smuch more like you love the perosn you wnat him to be than who he really is.He was that perosn for his whole life, and a bit of counseling won't change that. Poeple can chnage, but not until they accept responsibility for hat. You don;t do that as long a steh word BUT is inlcuded in any explaination of one's choices. You and he both still blame his wife for his choices.

 

HIS choices. Not hers.

 

Whatveer his wife may or may not have been doesn't negate his choices and actions, nor who or what he is.

 

And no, I'm not a BS.

Edited December 8, 2014 by truncated

[goodyblue]

Eh. People do.things for a myriad of reasons. Are you saying nothing in the world has an effect on your decisions? Gimme a break.

[HereNorThere]

At the end of the day, the cheater leaves because they felt they found a "better deal." You just have to hope that when the going gets tough, they don't look for the next better deal.

 

As my good friend says about cheating "HereNorThere, that's just how some people break-up."

[cocorico]

I'm not even sure where to start on this, as it's quite clear you failed to understand anything I wrote. However, let me attempt to clarify (without stopping to insults - you're free to keep that patch):

 

Wow. I hope you're joking. I guess the MM you married is free to go cheat on you because according to your words he "does not promise sexual exclusivity"? What rubbish.

 

I did not say *he* "does not promise sexual exclusivity". I stated that *she* insisted that be part of their agreement, because of her own past infidelity (she wanted to reserve the right to do the same again, if she felt so inclined). And that, when he took the agreement at its face value, she was outraged, because in her mind it was there to give *her* license, not both of them. We have a different agreement, based on what we *both* want out of the M.

 

And, if the agreement is that there is no expectation of sexual exclusivity, then it is not cheating - however strongly the aggrieved person feels post hoc. If their expectations changed, they should have communicated those, and renegotiated the agreement. Changing the terms within the confines of your own head is not binding on another person.

 

When you make a marriage vow, that means exclusivity. If you don't want to be exclusive and want to go boink people behind your SO's back, then don't get married. Hell, don't even get into a relationship! A marriage is a promise of many things, fidelity is one of them.

 

This is not even remotely true. There are many married poly-amorous couples, and many polygamous marriages. If you have four wives, to which of your wives have you promised sexual exclusivity?

 

I'm guessing you don't consider open Ms to be Ms - unlike the people in them - and I've no idea how you make sense of the concept of polygamous M, but they both very much exist, whether or not you choose to believe in them. A little like gravity, I guess.

 

From previous threads, according to you, nobody "owns" a MP. Yes, I agree, nobody owns another person, but when you marry, you limit your freedom to go bang whoever you want. That's what the label "married" means. It means you aren't free to do whatever you want- bang other people. Your logic makes no sense whatsoever, and even less so because it comes from you, a supposedly married woman.

 

If my H and I agreed, as part of our vows, to honour each others' bodies by only cooking healthy meals for each other, does that mean you are bound by the same in your M? Of course not! You are bound only by what you actually agreed to, not by what someone else agreed to with their spouse. When you sign up to use facebook, you are bound by the terms and conditions you agree to (by clicking "OK" when you register, and by updates of those). You are not bound by the conditions that Jo Bloggs agreed to when she signed up to AshleyMadison, or the conditions Bob Normal agreed to when he signed up to LinkedIn. Legal, written and oral contracts bind people to the terms of the contract itself, not to the terms of every other contract ever agreed.

 

I hope you're able to understand a little better now?

[velvette]

[quote=cocorico;604066

 

 

I hope you're able to understand a little better now?

 

 

Its clear you have a whole narrative in your mind of another womans life and marriage. Whether you have spun this for yourself or gotten it from your H not so clear.

 

 

But, anyway, what still makes no sense is that once a major facet of this alleged contract was broken(i.e. getting "accidentally" pregnant), why in the world did your H believe any of the contract was still valid?

 

 

That makes no sense.

[LifesontheUp]

From a very respected therapist:

 

"What about bad marriages? Don't they justify being unfaithful? After all, life is short. We only have one go around, right? What's always amazed me is how differently people react to similar circumstances. I've met people whose spouses refused to have sex for years and although that made them miserable, they simply could not cheat. I've met other people who, when their relationships hit predictable bumps in the road, rather than work things out, they sought comfort in the arms of strangers. Unhappy marriages don't cause infidelity. Being unfaithful causes infidelity.

 

 

Nevertheless, life is short and feeling lonely in marriage is no way to live. But dulling one's pain through the instant gratification of hot sex or emotional closeness with someone who doesn't argue with you about bills, children or the in-laws isn't an effective or lasting way to fix what's wrong. In fact, infidelity complicates life enormously for everyone involved, a fact that should not be minimized when planning the next "just friends" Starbucks break.

 

 

People who say their affairs just happened aren't necessarily intentionally trying to cover their asses or justify their behavior; they often truly believe what they're saying. They simply lack insight or awareness of the ways in which their actions, however subtle, have created their current predicaments. But in the same way that affairs don't just happen, neither does heaing from betrayal. Unless those who have strayed look inward and take personal responsible for the paths their lives have taken, they will not be able to get back on track when they've gotten derailed. In my view, being unconscious just doesn't cut it."

 

Now in my situation, I did everything for my xH, but he felt neglected when I had to spend a lot of time away from home looking after my father who was dying of cancer. Along came the office "hottie", 17 yrs his younger, fed his ego and lavished him with attention while I was in the midst of family turmoil.

 

So no, I didn't do anything wrong in my marriage apart from having to spend more time away from home. Did that mean I made him have an affair? Absolutely not, its all on him. In fact he owns it now and even tells me that he was broken. Broken in that he couldn't stand that I was away from home

and not lavishing my attention on him.

 

I agree, he was broken, he couldn't deal with a bump in the marital road and his coping mechanism was to get his ego fix else where. That speaks volumes about him and not about me.

 

Whether you like it or not, as it says unhappy marriages don't cause infidelity, being unfaithful does. And being unfaithful is a choice.

 

When I look back, I was very unhappy as all I ever did was run around pleasing my xH who gave nothing back in return. Did I have an affair as a result? No I did not..................

Edited December 8, 2014 by LifesontheUp

[serial muse]

As I stated, a person can make a poor choice (cheating) and mend their ways. It does not make them broken. It just makes them a person who made a poor decision.

 

This is true, but I think it does require that the person be willing/able to do some introspection in order to mend his/her ways.

 

I take exception to your implication that BS are the ones who check out of the marriage first, paving the way for cheating. That may be true in your specific situation -- I don't know -- but by no means should you generalize to all BS. It's unfair and judgmental of you.

 

I just think BS's like to justify what they did to make the marriage an absolute mess. The fact is, the first wrongs are a breaking of vows in themselves.

 

I would counter that PLENTY of WS's like to justify what they did to make the marriage an absolute mess, by doing exactly what you said: Suggesting it was all the BS's fault, really. It's just nonsense, self-serving and oversimplifying nonsense. There are plenty of WS's who broke their marriage vows long before cheating even happened -- you know, checking out, being cold, withholding sex, emotional abuse, etc. etc. etc. Doesn't mean the BS isn't responsible for his/her own behavior in a marriage -- but by that logic, each person owns his own ****, and that means that cheating is down to the one who did it. Full stop. You just can't have it both ways.

 

That anyone would make it so reductive as to suggest that infidelity is all about BS being cold --> WS cheating suggests to me that there's very little introspection at all.

Edited December 8, 2014 by serial muse

[CrystalCastles]

I did not say *he* "does not promise sexual exclusivity". I stated that *she* insisted that be part of their agreement, because of her own past infidelity (she wanted to reserve the right to do the same again, if she felt so inclined). And that, when he took the agreement at its face value, she was outraged, because in her mind it was there to give *her* license, not both of them. We have a different agreement, based on what we *both* want out of the M.

 

Frankly, I am still confused. In your post which I quoted, you were making vague, sweeping generalizations. And now you're talking about a specific case? Is it your case? Please pick one thing and stick to it.

 

This is not even remotely true. There are many married poly-amorous couples, and many polygamous marriages. If you have four wives, to which of your wives have you promised sexual exclusivity?

 

I'm guessing you don't consider open Ms to be Ms - unlike the people in them - and I've no idea how you make sense of the concept of polygamous M, but they both very much exist, whether or not you choose to believe in them. A little like gravity, I guess.

 

Yeah, only you never mentioned open relationships. Which are entirely different than what you were talking about, which I assumed was cheating, because this thread is about cheating, not open relationships. Marriage is a promise of fidelity. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule- open marriages- but they involve a significant deal of trust, and the primary relationship is always the main priority. So yes, I do believe in open marriages but that's not what you were talking about, was it?

 

Cheating isn't an open marriage. Comparing cheating to an open marriage is insulting, degrading and a disgrace to open marriages. Open marriages involve open communication. Cheating is sneaking around behind your SO's back. And if that last sentence was meant to be a jab at me, then I think you failed to keep out of my "insult-hurling" patch lol.

 

You are bound only by what you actually agreed to, not by what someone else agreed to with their spouse.

 

So that excuses cheating? An OW can get a free card to bang a MM because the marriage contract doesn't extend to her? You're reaching.

 

It takes two people to have an affair. I don't know why OW are always trying to excuse their actions and remove the responsibility of destroying someone else's marriage by their actions. Why not just OWN what you did.

[autumnnight]

I'm sorry but the idea that if I didn't specifically say "we'll be exclusive" that means it's okay for someone to cheat is ludicrous. I can see it now:

 

You slept with the neighbor?? How could you???

 

Well, I never promised in my wedding vows not to sleep with the neighbor. What's your problem??

 

Ridiculous.

[truncated]

OK, real life scenario as an example:

 

(Older) MW has A with (younger) SG, feels justified doing it because "M oppresses women" and "monogamy is unnatural". BH kicks her out, and she moves in with SG. They live together for several years (while he is a student) and then the tax rules change, making it much more expensive to cohabit as unmarried people, with huge tax breaks for married couples. They decide to marry, on condition that 1) there be no expectation of sexual exclusivity, and 2) there be no gender-defined roles within the M, and 3) they won't have kids They commit this to writing and both sign.

 

Over time, neither appears to be taking advantage of the "openness" of the M - and so MW decides that monogamy quite suits her, and she starts settling into comfy domesticity. She "accidentally" falls pregnant, refuses to abort, and suddenly they're parents. Things go downhill fast, eventually leading to a separation where he discovers he's far happier without her, she discovers the opposite, he lands up taking her back because the kids are taking too much strain and after a failed reconciliation, he succumbs to the offer of an A, because the agreement of non-exclusivity still holds to his mind, since he's never been told anything else.

 

She refuses to believe him when he tells her, until he moves out, and is then outraged that he would dare to "cheat" on her. After all, surely he must have realised that "things had changed"? Did she really need to spell everything out for him? Living "like hippies" was fine when they were young(er) and unencumbered, but they were parents, they had responsible jobs, surely even his thick skull must have understood that their agreement had been voided by some internal switch flicking in her head? Was he really so stupid that she needed to tell him something like that?

 

I'm not surprised you don't follow the "logic". I don't either. All i see are double standards.

 

To start with, I am not discussing his wife here, as whatever she is or isn’t doesn’t change who or what he is, so please don’t counter with “ but his wife….”

 

 

Not sorry to say it, but the MM in this situation had a whole lot of control over all these areas of his life, and he is, indeed, broken, as he chose not to exercise it, then whines when things don’t go as he had planned.

To start with, he is a sneak and dishonest. What he did was no different than marrying to get a green card. Marriage is not an institution to avoid paying higher taxes, or to allow someone entry into a country, and if that’s all he viewed it as, then that says a lot about him. He is someone who will play the system. Strike one aginst hom being “not broken”.

 

Strike two. He ( and you as well) blame all his choices on his wife. If he didn’t want kids, he most certainly had control over that. He could have marched his rear end on down to the doctor’s and gotten a vasectomy. That’s called being responsible. Instead, he and his wife had an “oops” and child number one came along. What about his other kids? Those all her fault too? He was too chicken to get a "snip", but was fine with cajoling her to get an abortion?

 

 

Strike three. He had an affair, and for all your touting the idea that it was an open marriage, both free to sleep with whomever they wanted, being free to sleep with whomever they wanted doesn’t equal freedom to form romantic relationships with others. Again, he blames his choices on her. He could have stayed away, the first time he left, but he “came back for the kids”. The kids, whom you say he never wanted in the first place, and were miserable with their mother were so unhappy he just had to come back.

 

See, this is where your theory falls short. To you, nothing is his fault. Everything bad was due to things other people did. He’s just an innocent little lamb who got preyed in by a cougar.

 

 

 

If anything, your story goes to show nothing more than marriages built from affairs don’t often work out because the two people in it are broken people.

[truncated]

I'm not even sure where to start on this, as it's quite clear you failed to understand anything I wrote. However, let me attempt to clarify (without stopping to insults - you're free to keep that patch):

 

 

 

I did not say *he* "does not promise sexual exclusivity". I stated that *she* insisted that be part of their agreement, because of her own past infidelity (she wanted to reserve the right to do the same again, if she felt so inclined). And that, when he took the agreement at its face value, she was outraged, because in her mind it was there to give *her* license, not both of them. We have a different agreement, based on what we *both* want out of the M.

 

And, if the agreement is that there is no expectation of sexual exclusivity, then it is not cheating - however strongly the aggrieved person feels post hoc. If their expectations changed, they should have communicated those, and renegotiated the agreement. Changing the terms within the confines of your own head is not binding on another person.

 

 

 

This is not even remotely true. There are many married poly-amorous couples, and many polygamous marriages. If you have four wives, to which of your wives have you promised sexual exclusivity?

 

I'm guessing you don't consider open Ms to be Ms - unlike the people in them - and I've no idea how you make sense of the concept of polygamous M, but they both very much exist, whether or not you choose to believe in them. A little like gravity, I guess.

 

 

 

If my H and I agreed, as part of our vows, to honour each others' bodies by only cooking healthy meals for each other, does that mean you are bound by the same in your M? Of course not! You are bound only by what you actually agreed to, not by what someone else agreed to with their spouse. When you sign up to use facebook, you are bound by the terms and conditions you agree to (by clicking "OK" when you register, and by updates of those). You are not bound by the conditions that Jo Bloggs agreed to when she signed up to AshleyMadison, or the conditions Bob Normal agreed to when he signed up to LinkedIn. Legal, written and oral contracts bind people to the terms of the contract itself, not to the terms of every other contract ever agreed.

 

I hope you're able to understand a little better now?

 

Actually, they would be, if one wants to quibble, legally bound by the laws in the country they got married in, and most countries that don't allow

multiples spouses, fidelity is part of the marriage contract.

 

If they wnated a relationship that didn't require that, then they shouldn't have gotten married just to avoid paying taxes.

 

Dishonest right from the start.

[truncated]

Frankly, I am still confused. In your post which I quoted, you were making vague, sweeping generalizations. And now you're talking about a specific case? Is it your case? Please pick one thing and stick to it.

 

 

 

Yeah, only you never mentioned open relationships. Which are entirely different than what you were talking about, which I assumed was cheating, because this thread is about cheating, not open relationships. Marriage is a promise of fidelity. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule- open marriages- but they involve a significant deal of trust, and the primary relationship is always the main priority. So yes, I do believe in open marriages but that's not what you were talking about, was it?

 

Cheating isn't an open marriage. Comparing cheating to an open marriage is insulting, degrading and a disgrace to open marriages. Open marriages involve open communication. Cheating is sneaking around behind your SO's back. And if that last sentence was meant to be a jab at me, then I think you failed to keep out of my "insult-hurling" patch lol.

 

 

 

So that excuses cheating? An OW can get a free card to bang a MM because the marriage contract doesn't extend to her? You're reaching.

 

It takes two people to have an affair. I don't know why OW are always trying to excuse their actions and remove the responsibility of destroying someone else's marriage by their actions. Why not just OWN what you did.

 

From what I understand, open marriages are open in more ways than just being able to have sex outside the marrige. They are open in terms of communication between the spouses.

 

For example, if one spouse decides to go outside the primary relationship I wpuld think they would let their spouse know so they can protect themsleves from STD's, should they feel the need to.

 

This is why cocoricco's story doens;t make sense to me. She says that the man assumed neither would be faithful, and neither needed to inform the other spouse if they decided to have sex outside the marriage. Now, most people in that situation would wnat to protect themsleves from the risk of catching an STD from their partner, so one would assume they would choose to use a barrier metod of contraception, yet this husband didn't do that, otherwise they wouldn't have had several children.

 

So the options are: there was either an expectation of fidelity unless there was a dsicussion beforehand or he was a fool

 

Which do you think it is?

[CrystalCastles]

so please don’t counter with “ but his wife….”

 

And that's the whole problem here. Its always the fault of the BS, it seems. Never the OW, never the MM. Marriage is failing? Blame it on the BS.

 

I think people like that, deep down inside, know that cheating is bad. Only they're trying to justify why they did it (ie. OW and MM are star-crossed lovers, BS is the big bad wolf who was responsible single-handedly for making the MM's life hell and is now standing in the way of OW's and MM's "Romeo and Juliet" love story).

 

I think the only time that the OW's actions can be excused is if she didn't know that the man she was seeing is married. I've seen some threads like that on here- MM's family is in another state. Otherwise, it takes two to tango, and its sickening to read how some OW pile all of the fault on the BS, and talk about their cheating MM like he's a saint.

[truncated]

Reading the responses to this thread has led me to the conclusion that cheaters come in two main varieties.

 

Both are broken while they are cheating, but the difference lies in how they act afterwards. Those who are able to accept responsibility for thier choices without trying to blame anyone else for them are one group, and those who blame their choices on the actions of others are a different group. They are the ones who preface the reasons they cheated with lines like " yes, I made he choice to have an A, but I did it because or x, y or z"

 

From my way of thinking, the first group can grow and learn from their actions, and have every potential of not cheating again. I could trust them, as they have put the work in to learn better ways of handling negative situtaions in their lives.

 

The second group, I couldn't ever trust. For them, everything will always be someone else's fault, and as such, they never learn better ways of handling a negative situation.

 

Some will disagree with me, or say that I am "judging people" which is fine, I don't really care.

[CrystalCastles]

From what I understand, open marriages are open in more ways than just being able to have sex outside the marrige. They are open in terms of communication between the spouses.

 

For example, if one spouse decides to go outside the primary relationship I wpuld think they would let their spouse know so they can protect themsleves from STD's, should they feel the need to.

 

This is why cocoricco's story doens;t make sense to me. She says that the man assumed neither would be faithful, and neither needed to inform the other spouse if they decided to have sex outside the marriage. Now, most people in that situation would wnat to protect themsleves from the risk of catching an STD from their partner, so one would assume they would choose to use a barrier metod of contraception, yet this husband didn't do that, otherwise they wouldn't have had several children.

 

So the options are: there was either an expectation of fidelity unless there was a dsicussion beforehand or he was a fool

 

Which do you think it is?

 

Honestly I don't know. This thread was discussing cheating, so how cocorico decided to stick open marriage into this is kind of confusing. Cheating and open marriage are not the same thing at all, and cannot be compared accurately.

 

"She says that the man assumed neither would be faithful, and neither needed to inform the other spouse if they decided to have sex outside the marriage."

 

Exactly what I thought she said as well, and by the looks of it, quite a few other posters. Apparently, it sounds to me like she's implying that marriage is just a paper and a ring on your finger and nothing more. As if you can be married and do whatever the heck you want. And if the BS thought, when she married the MM, that there was an expectation of exclusivity (assuming we are not talking about open marriage), then she's a fool because she did not explicitly sit the MM down and go over every single point which a marriage entails.

 

Personally I think cocorico made a statement which received a lot of backlash, and now she's trying to fix it by talking about open marriage, which we weren't even discussing here and cannot be compared to cheating anyway.

[CrystalCastles]

Both are broken while they are cheating, but the difference lies in how they act afterwards. Those who are able to accept responsibility for thier choices without trying to blame anyone else for them are one group, and those who blame their choices on the actions of others are a different group. They are the ones who preface the reasons they cheated with lines like " yes, I made he choice to have an A, but I did it because or x, y or z"

 

From my way of thinking, the first group can grow and learn from their actions, and have every potential of not cheating again. I could trust them, as they have put the work in to learn better ways of handling negative situtaions in their lives.

 

The second group, I couldn't ever trust. For them, everything will always be someone else's fault, and as such, they never learn better ways of handling a negative situation.

 

Strongly agreed.

 

Hence why I also said that cheaters cannot necessarily be labeled as just one word- broken, not broken, made a mistake, etc. There are cheaters who had a drunken ONS, came clean, took responsibility for their actions and never repeated the situation hence, and there are serial cheaters who promise not to cheat when caught, and then do it again, and again, and again. There are serial cheaters I know personally who have been to marriage counseling for years, and nothing has helped. How can one not call such a person truly "broken"? Serial cheating isn't a "mistake" (to those on here claiming cheating is a mistake).

 

Well said, it most definitely depends on a cheater's actions afterwards.

[truncated]

Honestly I don't know. This thread was discussing cheating, so how cocorico decided to stick open marriage into this is kind of confusing. Cheating and open marriage are not the same thing at all, and cannot be compared accurately.

 

"She says that the man assumed neither would be faithful, and neither needed to inform the other spouse if they decided to have sex outside the marriage."

 

Exactly what I thought she said as well, and by the looks of it, quite a few other posters. Apparently, it sounds to me like she's implying that marriage is just a paper and a ring on your finger and nothing more. As if you can be married and do whatever the heck you want. And if the BS thought, when she married the MM, that there was an expectation of exclusivity (assuming we are not talking about open marriage), then she's a fool because she did not explicitly sit the MM down and go over every single point which a marriage entails.

 

Personally I think cocorico made a statement which received a lot of backlash, and now she's trying to fix it by talking about open marriage, which we weren't even discussing here and cannot be compared to cheating anyway.

 

 

Sounds about right.

 

I don't know much about open marriages, but the ones I do know are based on bare bones honesty, which is the exact polar opposite of having an affair. They even go so far as to make sure their spouse is okay with the person they are choosing to go outisde the marriage with, and that person is always informed that it's not a relationship that will eventually end the marriage. The other spouse has a "veto" over their spouse sleeping with someone they don't find acceptable. STD testing is done, and protection used.

 

That is nothing like an affair or a marriage of convienience.

[Furious]

That is a very cliche term thrown around boards like this in describing a WS. But are they really broken?

 

I would posit that perhaps for a certain percentage of the population it is the concept of monogamy itself is what is broken.

 

History has well evidenced that monogamy is not an instinct, it is a learned behavior imposed on people for numerous reasons. Societies for thousands and thousands of years have written rules about this very topic mainly in religious teachings. The same way that homosexual activities have been ostracized in these same teachings throughout history. Are gays broken? I would suggest that neither the cheater or the gay is broken. Instead I would say they are both following their natural path, which society at large has deemed unacceptable for conditioned reasons. Both still exist no matter how much brainwashing we have been introduced to during our lives. They existed from the beginning of time and they exist today.

 

I know that some people will say because I was upfront with my wife after getting busted I am not broken. BUT if my MW came on this site and relayed her story about our A, she would be labeled broken. Same relationship. I don't view her as broken at all. She is just a person that after maturing realized she made a bad choice of a lifelong partner at the age of 20.

 

Speaking of cliche's. "Well, then get divorced. Thousands of people get divorced every day." That is much easier said than done, and as evidence shows the women in most cases get the short end of the stick, so to speak, not just financially, but morally as well.

 

Then there is the honesty thing. That is why they are broken. Or is it? Up until recently both being gay and having an affair/divorce were taboo, and in some ways still are. People were not being honest with themselves or their spouses since forever. Does that make them broken?

 

We have numerous examples, but one in particular on this board of a woman that was living in a sham of a marriage from the beginning. Was her husband 'broken' because he tried to conform to what society/wife expected, but failed?

 

Conformity. If you do not conform you are deemed broken. I really don't think that is a fair diagnosis.

 

 

Since you believe those who cheat are a persecuted minority and not recognized by main stream society and are as deserving as the gay community to be heard and given legitimacy.

 

I support the gay community, I support their rights to marry. I support their right to living in the open and being free of prejudice. I have gay friends, friends I love and support. I showed them your post and they were saddened by it.

 

I have marched with my gay friends, I have signed petitions that call for their legitimate rights as a human.

 

I dare you Realist, to stand up in public for and lobby for Cheaters rights. I dare you to organize a march and put your voice and face in the news for the legitimization of affairs. I wholeheartedly believe you would never publicly attach your face and words to your gripes. Predictably, cheaters are about secrecy and deceit. Not at all like the real and true minorities who publicly challenge and fight for equal rights.

 

Funny thing, cheaters whine about society and the burden of monogamy, even go as far as comparing their plight with the plight of the gay community. It's shallow and ignorant to suggest cheaters are in anyway comparable to the plight of minorities.

 

Let us know when you plan to march for recognizing the legitimacy of cheaters in your quest to break free from the constraint of imposed societal monogamy that you willingly signed up for on your wedding day.

 

Sadly, you are an extraordinary example of a cheater cliche, a cheater who will not publicly defend your beliefs but only gripe about them. It's also odd how cheaters are offended if called broken.. Put that on your placards as you lead the March in public protest in bringing legitimacy and understanding to the horrible discrimination cheaters face. I know an artist who could silkscreen your image on t-shirts with the logo "cheaters are not broken".

Edited December 8, 2014 by Furious