Cheaters are BROKEN?!

[GG2W]

I have a friend who is very broken. He cheats on his wife. At first it was with ladies of the evening, and now at last he has a steady girl friend, that knows his story.

He endured for years a sexless marriage. His wife said no more, after the birth of their last child. She did some counseling, including religious, but it went no where. Even the pastor of their church tried talking to her.

The man is former military, very good with weapons, is very much an alpha outdoors man, hunting, fishing. He also has a very stressful job, it pays well, but should he divorce, he would have to give up over sixty percent of his earnings, for child support, etc. He also lives in a very expensive area and would not be able to afford to rent a place of his own. Plus he would have to give up on seeing his children everyday.

His way to distress is to hit the shooting range. With a rifle he hardly ever misses and his fast draw is astounding and like with the rifle he rarely misses. His gun safe has a multiple of different types of weapons.

It was a religious counselor, who seeing the danger, of what this man could do if he ever totally cracked, that suggested he cheat.

[TrustedthenBusted]

Wow, this has turned out to be such a great thread. I think it should be pinned at the top and labeled "Things every betrayed spouse should know." Rarely do you ever get a glimpse into the wayward's mind like this one. And not one wayward, but several. It's just awesome to actually see the thought process documented so well. The level of rationalization is just astounding! Everything from - they deserved it, I was rescuing them, this is how god made me, it's monogamy's fault, everyone does it, divorce isn't an option, it's a safety issue, it's natural, it's societal norms that are wrong, people change their mind about wedding vows, promises are just words, etc. etc.

 

I guess I knew about this sort of justifying as a result of cognitive dissonance, but this is the cheater's bible of excuses. The similarities blow my mind!

 

Great thread and...

Don't mind me, please, do continue!

 

 

 

No doubt! This lends a lot of credence to the old adage "Once a Cheater..."

 

If this is how many of them think, it's no wonder the stats are as bad as they are.

[velvette]

So many victims, so little personal responsibility.

 

 

In the time it takes to have a five year affair, a woman in an unhappy marriage could earn a Masters degree and get a job to support herself and her children in whatever style she wanted to live in.

 

 

Seems like that would be a better option to me than to remain dependent on two men who don't really care about your wellbeing.

 

 

You would also have time to get whatever counseling you needed to fix your daddy and low self esteem issues.

 

 

Hopefully, younger women who read this are getting the real take away message......don't get married until you are a whole person who can stand on you own two feet if it doesn't work out. And, don't have children until you are able to support them on your own if necessary.

[NYWoman]

So how do I think cheating would have helped out?

 

 

It would have saved me hundreds of dollars I spent in batteries. The only way I could get off. I missed out on having a warm body to share my love of sex with.

It is hard to get with it when you no longer love your partner. My second H's idea of romance, was a 6-pack and a porno tape.

 

 

Velvette:

 

 

I have my degree and made great money, but it still was not enough to live the life style my boys were accustomed to.

And as for todays women, have you notice the price of college, by the time you graduate, you can be as much as quarter of a million dollars in debt. If they can get a job, by the time they pay off their education debt it will be time to retire.

[Arieswoman]

Velvette - 127#

 

Hopefully, younger women who read this are getting the real take away message......don't get married until you are a whole person who can stand on you own two feet if it doesn't work out. And, don't have children until you are able to support them on your own if necessary.

 

Agree 100% (and also the rest of your post.)

 

A girlfriend of mine had a career as a ballet dancer. She gave that up to get married. Two kids later she realised her husband was a mean controlling SOB and she wanted out. After 2 kids there was no way she could go back to her old career so she trained as a florist and also got a teaching qualification so she could take classes. He allowed that - even paid for it. (!)

 

They lived in a big house with a garden, so she took classes at home, and could provide the flowers to work with. This was was fine by him as he could keep an eye on her, (he worked from home) and she saved the money quietly for years.

 

When her son was 18 he joined the army and as soon as he was gone she left, took her daughter with her and served hubby with the divorce papers.

She rented a flat and got a job in a florists shop p/t and taught night classes 2 nights a week.

 

Now she has her own florist's shop and employs 4 people.

[xxoo]

 

 

I won't discount a bit of game playing on both sides, but that is the same nip and tuck of any relationship. Both sides are trying to establish their footing. nothing out if the ordinary

 

This is revealing.

 

I don't know if it's ordinary or not, but it isn't what I want in my intimate relationship. Great relationships are created from mutual trust and vulnerability. It takes a lot of emotional strength to take that risk.

[Rejected Rosebud]

When a person commits a criminal act, especially one of a heinous variety, we as a society cannot understand that an individual

can be walking around and be as unconventional in their thoughts as to be able to murder, to torture people, to steal massive amounts

or to go on gun crazed rampages.

WE label them broken, because to comprehend that they may be somehow normal, goes against all our beliefs.

We are angry that they go against the norm, we cannot let them get off with the fact they may be quite happy murdering people,

or carrying out huge frauds and bank raids, so we label them as tortured souls, damaged goods, broken individuals.

 

I feel it is a bit similar when cheaters are labelled broken, damaged, tortured.

Those on the receiving end of their actions, NEED to think of them in that way.

To believe they quite happily destroyed marriages, broke hearts and ruined families is too much to comprehend.

We as a society NEED to believe they do those things, because there is something wrong with them.

 

The betrayed also NEED to grab the moral high ground and they NEED to believe the cheater is somehow below them.

To label cheaters as broken and damaged does that.

So are you comparing cheaters with mass murderers, torturers, thieves, etc. because all go against societies norms and then implying that other people just need to put themselves above those because it makes us feel better? !?! A little scary!!!

[velvette]

 

 

Velvette:

 

 

I have my degree and made great money, but it still was not enough to live the life style my boys were accustomed to.

And as for todays women, have you notice the price of college, by the time you graduate, you can be as much as quarter of a million dollars in debt. If they can get a job, by the time they pay off their education debt it will be time to retire.

 

Yep, you can foolishly make the choice to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to get a degree in art history, English lit basketweaving or some other low/no employment area. Lots do. Or you can be smart and get a degree from a cheaper place that will pay a high salary. Easy enough to research.

 

 

In any case, personally, I would rather have student loan debt than feel like I was trapped in a bad marriage for years.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Is the cheater only truly "broken" when they are found out and they decide to rebuild their marriage?

 

Is a cheater who flees with the AP actually "broken"?

Is the serial cheater who is accepted back into the marital fold again and again, "broken"?

If a person is messed up the condition does not only exist in relationship to others, if somebody is a lying cheating serial murderer they are just as "broken" if nobody knows what they're up to as they are if they're busted!! It kind of seems that you have taken a stance against the existence of morals, like a deconstructionist, is that true? If it is I just hope those close to you share the same philosophy!!! We kind of count on our loved ones having a similar idea of right and wrong as we do don't you think?

[goodyblue]

Velvette - 127#

 

 

 

Agree 100% (and also the rest of your post.)

 

A girlfriend of mine had a career as a ballet dancer. She gave that up to get married. Two kids later she realised her husband was a mean controlling SOB and she wanted out. After 2 kids there was no way she could go back to her old career so she trained as a florist and also got a teaching qualification so she could take classes. He allowed that - even paid for it. (!)

 

They lived in a big house with a garden, so she took classes at home, and could provide the flowers to work with. This was was fine by him as he could keep an eye on her, (he worked from home) and she saved the money quietly for years.

 

When her son was 18 he joined the army and as soon as he was gone she left, took her daughter with her and served hubby with the divorce papers.

She rented a flat and got a job in a florists shop p/t and taught night classes 2 nights a week.

 

Now she has her own florist's shop and employs 4 people.

 

So, she realized he was an SOB (her opinion, you don't know what went on in their marriage), stayed with him for years, then, when he was old decided to divorce. Sounds charming.

 

Yet, when I have mentioned in the past that my guy stayed with his ex because he was afraid she would get custody (alcoholic), he is still the jerk. Seems like the theme around here is 'treat your spouse as horribly as you want. Use them for finances, deny sex and intimacy, waste their good years and it is fine. Cheat, and you are broken, evil, have character flaws and no moral compass.

 

Jesus. What a joke this forum is. It has no comnection to real life.

[LifesontheUp]

Two wrongs don't make it right.

 

It's like a kids playground. Tommy "you hurt my feelings when you called me names". Jimmy " well you stole my pencil".

 

Dear God the justifications are astounding. Accountability in some supossed adults is severely lacking.

[Arieswoman]

Goodyblue, post 135#

The parts I missed out was that he was verbally abusive, had several affairs, visited prostitutes when away abroad on business and gave her an STD.

 

She could have walked out years beforehand but she didn't want to leave her children, and she had nowhere to go, at that time.

 

As it was, he employed a barrister to defend the divorce (!) and although she was able to get legal counsel via the UK Legal Aid scheme she had to pay it back as soon as she was earning enough money.

 

I can only tell you what she told me......

[cocorico]

Corico - post93#

 

I don't follow your logic.

 

 

 

That's fine if they both agree.

 

 

Why would they make this assumption if they both agreed on an "open" marriage?

 

 

 

Why would they change the rules in their own heads over such a major issue?

 

OK, real life scenario as an example:

 

(Older) MW has A with (younger) SG, feels justified doing it because "M oppresses women" and "monogamy is unnatural". BH kicks her out, and she moves in with SG. They live together for several years (while he is a student) and then the tax rules change, making it much more expensive to cohabit as unmarried people, with huge tax breaks for married couples. They decide to marry, on condition that 1) there be no expectation of sexual exclusivity, and 2) there be no gender-defined roles within the M, and 3) they won't have kids They commit this to writing and both sign.

 

Over time, neither appears to be taking advantage of the "openness" of the M - and so MW decides that monogamy quite suits her, and she starts settling into comfy domesticity. She "accidentally" falls pregnant, refuses to abort, and suddenly they're parents. Things go downhill fast, eventually leading to a separation where he discovers he's far happier without her, she discovers the opposite, he lands up taking her back because the kids are taking too much strain and after a failed reconciliation, he succumbs to the offer of an A, because the agreement of non-exclusivity still holds to his mind, since he's never been told anything else.

 

She refuses to believe him when he tells her, until he moves out, and is then outraged that he would dare to "cheat" on her. After all, surely he must have realised that "things had changed"? Did she really need to spell everything out for him? Living "like hippies" was fine when they were young(er) and unencumbered, but they were parents, they had responsible jobs, surely even his thick skull must have understood that their agreement had been voided by some internal switch flicking in her head? Was he really so stupid that she needed to tell him something like that?

 

I'm not surprised you don't follow the "logic". I don't either. All i see are double standards.

[velvette]

So, she realized he was an SOB (her opinion, you don't know what went on in their marriage), stayed with him for years, then, when he was old decided to divorce. Sounds charming.

 

Yet, when I have mentioned in the past that my guy stayed with his ex because he was afraid she would get custody (alcoholic), he is still the jerk. Seems like the theme around here is 'treat your spouse as horribly as you want. Use them for finances, deny sex and intimacy, waste their good years and it is fine. Cheat, and you are broken, evil, have character flaws and no moral compass.

 

Jesus. What a joke this forum is. It has no comnection to real life.

 

 

This makes no sense. She DID get custody, because he left his child in her custody every day when he went to work. If she was truly the alchoholic he says that's the easiest way in the world for a father to get custody away from a mother. Its an entirely different situation and one I'm surprised as a mother yourself you have any respect for.

[Arieswoman]

OK, Corico, I get the picture.

 

It seems that this relationship failed due to two factors ;-

 

1. There was no proviso in the agreement for an "accidental" pregancy and the course of action following such a discovery. (If they really didn't want children, then one of them should have been sterilised.)

 

2. There was no clause in the agreement for a change of mind (of either party) and therefore when MW "moved the goalposts" there was no penalty.

 

Obviously a solicitor/lawyer didn't draw up the original contract....

[goodyblue]

Two wrongs don't make it right.

 

It's like a kids playground. Tommy "you hurt my feelings when you called me names". Jimmy " well you stole my pencil".

 

Dear God the justifications are astounding. Accountability in some supossed adults is severely lacking.

 

Stupidest thing I have ever heard. Sometimes it DOES. My guy and i have a great relationship. He is happy. So two wrongs did make a right.

 

And the first wrong is just as bad, if not worse than the second. I would rather have dealt with a one year affair than twenty years of loneliness.

[cocorico]

If a person is messed up the condition does not only exist in relationship to others

 

This is a good point.

 

If someone is a loyal friend, model employee, fantastic parent, excellent colleague, leader in their profession, upstanding member of the community, philanthropist, activist, and General all round great guy, *but* they form a parallel R while still M to an abusive spouse who is widely disliked, and don't leave immediately so as to protect young kids from the trauma of another split (having watched them suffer greatly during the previous split) - this makes them messed up? Despite being so obviously unbroken in every single other dimension of their lives, a considered decision to stick out a few more years of hell solely to ensure a better transition for their traumatised kids suddenly makes them broken? I think that's a stretch...

[velvette]

OK, real life scenario as an example:

 

(Older) MW has A with (younger) SG, feels justified doing it because "M oppresses women" and "monogamy is unnatural". BH kicks her out, and she moves in with SG. They live together for several years (while he is a student) and then the tax rules change, making it much more expensive to cohabit as unmarried people, with huge tax breaks for married couples. They decide to marry, on condition that 1) there be no expectation of sexual exclusivity, and 2) there be no gender-defined roles within the M, and 3) they won't have kids They commit this to writing and both sign.

 

Over time, neither appears to be taking advantage of the "openness" of the M - and so MW decides that monogamy quite suits her, and she starts settling into comfy domesticity. She "accidentally" falls pregnant, refuses to abort, and suddenly they're parents. Things go downhill fast, eventually leading to a separation where he discovers he's far happier without her, she discovers the opposite, he lands up taking her back because the kids are taking too much strain and after a failed reconciliation, he succumbs to the offer of an A, because the agreement of non-exclusivity still holds to his mind, since he's never been told anything else.

 

She refuses to believe him when he tells her, until he moves out, and is then outraged that he would dare to "cheat" on her. After all, surely he must have realised that "things had changed"? Did she really need to spell everything out for him? Living "like hippies" was fine when they were young(er) and unencumbered, but they were parents, they had responsible jobs, surely even his thick skull must have understood that their agreement had been voided by some internal switch flicking in her head? Was he really so stupid that she needed to tell him something like that?

 

I'm not surprised you don't follow the "logic". I don't either. All i see are double standards.

 

 

This is hilarious although Im sure you are quite serious about it.

 

I dunno, but if it were me and someone violated one aspect of a contract like that(i.e. getting pregnant) I would be having a conversation about the rest of the contract or did they have one of those clauses that says one violation of the contract didn't make the rest null and void?

 

 

I don't agree with your values, but you usually are pretty logical in defending them. Surely, you must see that this train of thought makes no sense.

[goodyblue]

This makes no sense. She DID get custody, because he left his child in her custody every day when he went to work. If she was truly the alchoholic he says that's the easiest way in the world for a father to get custody away from a mother. Its an entirely different situation and one I'm surprised as a mother yourself you have any respect for.

 

If you believe that you have never dealt with it. I watched someone very close to me fight for two years in court to get visits supervised because her XH was a meth addict. People LIE in custody battles. People's family lie for them. People do the temporary clean up and then go back to old habits. My guy also did most of the child rearing as he was flexible and is wealthy, could work from home etc. When i say child rearing i mean all of it, first period, first bra, etc. You dont know what ypu are talking about.

 

As a last tidbit, he never tried to leave or divorce. He stayed because he was afraid for his daughter and of losing.the ability to exert some control over the situation with her alcoholic mother.

[HereNorThere]

So how do I think cheating would have helped out?

 

 

It would have saved me hundreds of dollars I spent in batteries. The only way I could get off. I missed out on having a warm body to share my love of sex with.

It is hard to get with it when you no longer love your partner. My second H's idea of romance, was a 6-pack and a porno tape.

 

 

Velvette:

 

 

I have my degree and made great money, but it still was not enough to live the life style my boys were accustomed to.

And as for todays women, have you notice the price of college, by the time you graduate, you can be as much as quarter of a million dollars in debt. If they can get a job, by the time they pay off their education debt it will be time to retire.

 

 

At least you're honest about using him for money. It's not really a good reason to stick around or anything, but at least it's truthful.

[velvette]

This is a good point.

 

If someone is a loyal friend, model employee, fantastic parent, excellent colleague, leader in their profession, upstanding member of the community, philanthropist, activist, and General all round great guy, *but* they form a parallel R while still M to an abusive spouse who is widely disliked, and don't leave immediately so as to protect young kids from the trauma of another split (having watched them suffer greatly during the previous split) - this makes them messed up? Despite being so obviously unbroken in every single other dimension of their lives, a considered decision to stick out a few more years of hell solely to ensure a better transition for their traumatised kids suddenly makes them broken? I think that's a stretch...

 

 

I've never met anyone who is/was not broken in some way from being in an abusive relationship. Either there was something broken in them to start with that caused them to choose an abusive partner and stay with them or they were broken from living in an abusive R. Either way the only way they are unbroken is therapy or working on their issues.

 

 

Just because they function well with people other than their spouse does not mean something is not broken. Most people are not all one way or the other.

[velvette]

If you believe that you have never dealt with it. I watched someone very close to me fight for two years in court to get visits supervised because her XH was a meth addict. People LIE in custody battles. People's family lie for them. People do the temporary clean up and then go back to old habits. My guy also did most of the child rearing as he was flexible and is wealthy, could work from home etc. When i say child rearing i mean all of it, first period, first bra, etc. You dont know what ypu are talking about.

 

As a last tidbit, he never tried to leave or divorce. He stayed because he was afraid for his daughter and of losing.the ability to exert some control over the situation with her alcoholic mother.

 

 

Don't buy it. Without even trying I can think of 5 men I know who have custody of children whose mothers were alcohol or drug or both addicted.

 

 

And, it doesn't matter if people lie. All it takes is having the state catch the parent in an intoxicated state while caring for the child, especially if they are driving them around. One call to the police.

 

 

Did it happen overnight? No, but in all 5 cases they had custody within a year.

 

 

And, you are not even accounting for the fact that at a certain age a child can choose to leave the mother and live with the father. Sorry but these excuses just do not hold water.

[HereNorThere]

If you believe that you have never dealt with it. I watched someone very close to me fight for two years in court to get visits supervised because her XH was a meth addict. People LIE in custody battles. People's family lie for them. People do the temporary clean up and then go back to old habits. My guy also did most of the child rearing as he was flexible and is wealthy, could work from home etc. When i say child rearing i mean all of it, first period, first bra, etc. You dont know what ypu are talking about.

 

As a last tidbit, he never tried to leave or divorce. He stayed because he was afraid for his daughter and of losing.the ability to exert some control over the situation with her alcoholic mother.

 

Well, to be fair, as long as the person lying about custody ends up "happy," it's okay for them to lie. Remember the whole "2 wrongs do make a right?"

 

How come only you can lie for happiness, but when someone else does it, they're immoral?

[goodyblue]

Don't buy it. Without even trying I can think of 5 men I know who have custody of children whose mothers were alcohol or drug or both addicted.

 

 

And, it doesn't matter if people lie. All it takes is having the state catch the parent in an intoxicated state while caring for the child, especially if they are driving them around. One call to the police.

 

 

Did it happen overnight? No, but in all 5 cases they had custody within a year.

 

 

And, you are not even accounting for the fact that at a certain age a child can choose to leave the mother and live with the father. Sorry but these excuses just do not hold water.

 

Uh huh. Of course you don't because the cheater is evil no matter what. And it is not an excuse, it was his reason. Remember. This was in the late 80's-early 90's. Things were not the same. But you can think whatever makes you feel better. His daughter is much better off because he stayed in a horrible marriage to protect her.

 

She denies being an alcoholic even now. So.does her father, who is also an alcoholic. Kids live with alcoholic parents all the time and they get the kids. I can't believe you think they just get taken away. Ridiculous.

[velvette]

Uh huh. Of course you don't because the cheater is evil no matter what. And it is not an excuse, it was his reason. Remember. This was in the late 80's-early 90's. Things were not the same. But you can think whatever makes you feel better. His daughter is much better off because he stayed in a horrible marriage to protect her.

 

She denies being an alcoholic even now. So.does her father, who is also an alcoholic. Kids live with alcoholic parents all the time and they get the kids. I can't believe you think they just get taken away. Ridiculous.

 

 

I never said they just get taken away. You have to care enough about your child to find the backbone to fight for them. You have to spend money, time and effort to go to court, etc. The cases I mentioned happened in the same time frame as your boyfriends situation. This is nothing new.

 

 

I'm pretty sure you are badly mistaken that his daughter is better off because he stayed in a horrible marriage involving alcoholism to "protect" her. I would recommend you read all the literature about "adult children of alcoholics"