Cheaters are BROKEN?!

[oldshirt]

I saw a link on my page to this discussion.

 

Realist3 -- here's my riff on monogamy. Monogamy Is Not the Problem*|*Tracy Schorn

 

The monogamy argument is a red herring. Cheaters unilaterally change the rules to suit themselves -- that's an issue of character, not monogamy. Polyamory has rules too (who is an acceptable partner, how do we manage STD risks, etc.) -- so polyamory doesn't protect you from being chumped.

 

We didn't evolve to do a lot of things -- farm, use indoor plumbing, wear lederhosen. If you consented to monogamy, and you cheated -- that's on YOU, not monogamy.

 

 

Yes, polyamory, swinging, open marriage etc have MORE rules than monogamy. Some poly/swinging/open marriages remain true to agreed upon rules and some people still cheat even though they are already in an open/poly/swinging marriage.

 

Cheating is not about what's natural vs unnatural. Cheating is about selfishness and self-entitlement.

 

 

(BTW, glad to see you here on our little forum. This could get interesting :-D )

[TrustedthenBusted]

I would beg to suggest that the reason for lying is much the same, safety. You have other safety concerns, while the wayward has other safety concerns. It is ALL self preservation.

 

The only thing I agree with you on is the safety aspect.

 

Gays do not deserve to get their asses kicked for being gay.

 

But cheaters do.

[Realist3]

i take huge issue wuth you comparing being gay to cheating. A gay relationship doesn't hrt anyone, it's not built on dishonesty, and btoh people involved know what's going on.

 

Cheating is nothing like this, and comparing the two seems to be grasping at straws to try and legtimize hurtful behavior.

 

As for non-monogamy being normal. Have you ever talked to the wives/husband's who were just one of many? An awful lot of them are in the relationships bcause their religion requires it ( some sects of mormonism, some muslim sects, etc.) . These relationships ahve nothin to do with emotins, they are financial, pragmatic arrangements, ofetn arranged by the families of those involved. The poepel in them can hurt every bit as much as some one "forced' to be monogamous when they don't feel it's right for them.

 

 

You are again missing the point I was trying to make. I apologize that it may not have been clearly or effectively relayed.

 

I don't have to legitimize anything. Reset!!!!!!!!

 

There are certain percentages of the population that try thier best to conform to societal norms. It could be gays, it could be non-monogamous individuals, on and on... All during this process they will lie everywhere. Why? Not because they are broken as individuals, but because they are trying to conform/.

[dichotomy]

Are physical or violent people broken? Or is peaceful behavior merely a societal construct forced on our natural biology to want to kill or hurt those who would threaten or take what we want or desire?

 

Lets face it - haven't many of us - occasionally - wanted to throttle our rivals - for sex, for money, status - or to reap justice ? I mean isn't war and conflict our human nature? I mean look at history...how long can we resist the cry to battle to fight.

 

Ok.....enough.. you get were I am going. We got higher brains, we can do more than our animal heritage.

 

I have no issues with anyone who can't be monogamous - just own up to it. If you want to get married, do an open marriage or be swingers. Like wise if you like a good fight and inflicting some pain- you can do that legally (or even illegally) if your honest and find a like minded warrior to battle with in the ring or outside the ring (don't talk about fight club).

[Realist3]

The only thing I agree with you on is the safety aspect.

 

Gays do not deserve to get their asses kicked for being gay.

 

But cheaters do.

 

Neither deserve physical or mental ass kickings.

[Realist3]

I have a close friend that is gay, on the down low, that I have known since elementary school. He has a great family, three beautiful kids. Is he broken? No. He did his best to conform to what society expected of him.

[DKT3]

Yeah, I'm not getting the gay thing. Cheating is about lies, deception, greed, selfishness, lack of respect and hurting people. Gay is about being with who your attracted to.

 

This is really some nonesense, cheating is a personal decision. Some cheaters are very much broken because they can cheat without remorse or worst yet without seeing anything wrong with it. Others are simply stupid, for lack of a more fitting word.

 

Unlike the famous saying "cheaters will always cheat" or "cheaters never change" would suggest, most cheaters only cheat ONCE. Roughly 20% of women and 40% of men are repeat cheaters. That would lean more towards stupid and selfish then broken. Those who cheat multiple times or with a number of people are broken.

 

In the end it doesn't really matter if they are broken, selfish, stupid or all three it sux being cheated on. Once you have been, which point on the needle your WS falls close to doesn't lessen the pain.

[Realist3]

His whole life is a lie. is he broken? NO!

[truncated]

The whole reason for the comparison between the cheater and the gay person is because I have family members that are gay. The way society had treated them their whole lives is that they were wrong. They were broken as individuals. They lied to their families, they lied to their friends, they lied to themselves.

 

Cheaters likewise lie to themselves, to their spouses, to their families, etc., in an effort to conform to what is expected of them. Neither scenario suggests the person is intrinsically broken.

 

 

You just don't get it.

 

Someone who is gay is gay because it's who they are. It is not, in and of itself, hurtful behavior. for example, a man who is gay can be in a relationship, be completely open, honest and forthcomming with their husband and never cheat on them. These are things they choose, gay is not.

 

Liklewise, a person who is gay can lie to their hsuabnd or wife and cheat on them. that is a choice.

 

You are confusing people loking down on people who cheat becaus their behavior is hurtufl to the peson who loves and trusts them. The very afct that someone could look at that perosn in the face evryday an lie to them, and feel okay or even good about it, and even rationalize their behavior and extrapolate that to everyone else, indicates that they are, infact, broken.

 

It's no different that a smarmy salesman, online scammer or corrupt politician. All lie, all are okay with it as a means to an end. All are broken.

 

If you don't like society looking down on you because you cheat, then don't do it. Don't expecet everyone to suddenly be okay wth hurtful behavior just because it bruises your ego to be called broken. :0

[No Limit]

You don't need to study psychology to understand that someone who deceits and lies has at the very least character flaws, deeper issues and deficits, at worst sociopathic traits.

 

Sorry, I know someone who has a wife who tolerates cheating and a loving OW that makes sure her husband won't find out anytime soon could never understand that. On the other hand, perhaps that's your wifes' cruelty behind this, since you'll never get a chance to improve yourself without waking up -- which she could do at a snap of her fingers and a helpful lawyer.

[Realist3]

My MW, because she chose to partner with me, is not broken.

[xxoo]

Infidelity is not the opposite of monogamy. Be polyamorous, or be a serial monogamist, but have integrity.

 

Cheaters are "broken" because they can't manage integrity in their very closest relationships. There is always a reason they must hide some part of themselves from people close to them (whether spouse or kids). Their most intimate and personal relationships are fragmented and compartmentalized, literally lacking integrity. Integration is impossible (or undesirable) due to

1. .

[Bittersweetie]

That is a very cliche term thrown around boards like this in describing a WS. But are they really broken?

 

I would posit that perhaps for a certain percentage of the population it is the concept of monogamy itself is what is broken.

 

History has well evidenced that monogamy is not an instinct, it is a learned behavior imposed on people for numerous reasons. Societies for thousands and thousands of years have written rules about this very topic mainly in religious teachings. The same way that homosexual activities have been ostracized in these same teachings throughout history. Are gays broken? I would suggest that neither the cheater or the gay is broken. Instead I would say they are both following their natural path, which society at large has deemed unacceptable for conditioned reasons. Both still exist no matter how much brainwashing we have been introduced to during our lives. They existed from the beginning of time and they exist today.

 

I know that some people will say because I was upfront with my wife after getting busted I am not broken. BUT if my MW came on this site and relayed her story about our A, she would be labeled broken. Same relationship. I don't view her as broken at all. She is just a person that after maturing realized she made a bad choice of a lifelong partner at the age of 20.

 

Speaking of cliche's. "Well, then get divorced. Thousands of people get divorced every day." That is much easier said than done, and as evidence shows the women in most cases get the short end of the stick, so to speak, not just financially, but morally as well.

 

Then there is the honesty thing. That is why they are broken. Or is it? Up until recently both being gay and having an affair/divorce were taboo, and in some ways still are. People were not being honest with themselves or their spouses since forever. Does that make them broken?

 

We have numerous examples, but one in particular on this board of a woman that was living in a sham of a marriage from the beginning. Was her husband 'broken' because he tried to conform to what society/wife expected, but failed?

 

Conformity. If you do not conform you are deemed broken. I really don't think that is a fair diagnosis.

 

I haven't read any responses yet, and will only speak to my personal experience.

 

I was broken. I wanted more that what my life and relationship was giving me, and instead of talking to my husband about it, or looking to make a lifestyle change, I chose to get something on the side. And I kept it secret because I was "protecting" my husband, as I didn't want him to get hurt.

 

I wasn't trying to conform with society or anyone...I just wanted what I wanted, and thought I deserved, and damn everyone else. If anything, I was not conforming, because I was doing what I wanted without thinking of anyone else actually. I only thought of myself.

 

Again, I WAS broken then. Because I thought it was okay for me to grasp happiness at the expense of someone else's. However, I took the time and effort to fix me. I took the time and effort to fix my relationship. And my life and relationship is a thousand times better now than it was...without any dishonesty, or hiding, or hurting of others (whether they know it or not).

 

I am currently walking a path that is healthy, honest, and with integrity. Does that mean I now conform to society?

[truncated]

I would beg to suggest that the reason for lying is much the same, safety. You have other safety concerns, while the wayward has other safety concerns. It is ALL self preservation.

 

 

For the love of all that's holly, you just keep digging your self in deeper...

 

People who are gay often lie about it to protect their physical safety. they don;t wnat ti get beat up, lose their job, be denied some fo the thinsg straght pepel take for granted simply because they are gay, which is not a choice.

 

Cheating is a choice a perosn makes to engage in hurtful behavior.

 

Let me put it in smple terms

 

Gay= the way a person was born

cheating= choice

 

If a person was gay and got married to someone of the opposite sex and lied to them about it, then yes, that would be a choice that indicated a broken person. If they got married to a straight person for appearances sake, but tol their truth that they were gay, not broken.

[Realist3]

Infidelity is not the opposite of monogamy. Be polyamorous, or be a serial monogamist, but have integrity.

 

Cheaters are "broken" because they can't manage integrity in their very closest relationships. There is always a reason they must hide some part of themselves from people close to them (whether spouse or kids). Their most intimate and personal relationships are fragmented and compartmentalized, literally lacking integrity. Integration is impossible (or undesirable) due to

1. .

 

 

You are going into a slightly different area, but 'integrity' is defined by what is expected of you. I'm not making the case of right wrong/

[truncated]

His whole life is a lie. is he broken? NO!

 

um, yes he is.

 

If he is living a lie, unhapppy and possibly cheating on his wife, then he's broekn.

 

it's the action, not who he is, that makes him that way.

[Realist3]

I'm going to add that i think most cheaters just cheat to cheat. They think they can get away with it. In no way am I trying to hold cheaters up to some lofty position in terms of justification.

[xxoo]

You are going into a slightly different area, but 'integrity' is defined by what is expected of you. I'm not making the case of right wrong/

 

I'm speaking of integrity in both doing what you'd say you'd do (daily, not just some promise you made years ago in a ceremony. But what are you promising to do daily and yearly by being part of this family?). And also in terms of being whole, unfractured, and cohesive. When you are one person with your family (spouse, kids, inlaws, extended family, neighbors), and a different person with your AP, there is a basic lack of integrity. There is a fracture in self.

[NateGrey]

That is a very cliche term thrown around boards like this in describing a WS. But are they really broken?

 

I would posit that perhaps for a certain percentage of the population it is the concept of monogamy itself is what is broken.

 

History has well evidenced that monogamy is not an instinct, it is a learned behavior imposed on people for numerous reasons. Societies for thousands and thousands of years have written rules about this very topic mainly in religious teachings. The same way that homosexual activities have been ostracized in these same teachings throughout history. Are gays broken? I would suggest that neither the cheater or the gay is broken. Instead I would say they are both following their natural path, which society at large has deemed unacceptable for conditioned reasons. Both still exist no matter how much brainwashing we have been introduced to during our lives. They existed from the beginning of time and they exist today.

 

I know that some people will say because I was upfront with my wife after getting busted I am not broken. BUT if my MW came on this site and relayed her story about our A, she would be labeled broken. Same relationship. I don't view her as broken at all. She is just a person that after maturing realized she made a bad choice of a lifelong partner at the age of 20.

 

Speaking of cliche's. "Well, then get divorced. Thousands of people get divorced every day." That is much easier said than done, and as evidence shows the women in most cases get the short end of the stick, so to speak, not just financially, but morally as well.

 

Then there is the honesty thing. That is why they are broken. Or is it? Up until recently both being gay and having an affair/divorce were taboo, and in some ways still are. People were not being honest with themselves or their spouses since forever. Does that make them broken?

 

We have numerous examples, but one in particular on this board of a woman that was living in a sham of a marriage from the beginning. Was her husband 'broken' because he tried to conform to what society/wife expected, but failed?

 

Conformity. If you do not conform you are deemed broken. I really don't think that is a fair diagnosis.

 

You might have some good points, but you realize not a single word you just said excuses cheating on someone and lying about it, etc. I'm not saying you claimed your post DID say that, mind you.

 

As to the whole monogamy/instinct. The thing that separates us from the animals is that we can ignore instinct. If I'm super hungry and I am in a restaurant I can still control myself and stop myself from going and grabbing other peoples food. Why? Because it is a choice I made, to wait until my own food arrives. Monogamy is a choice too. If you want to take such a choice back fine, but then you let your partner know about it the EXACT second you have such a revelation. You don't hide it and cheat, you act like an adult.

Edited December 5, 2014 by NateGrey

[AlwaysGrowing]

As a parent of a gay child I was offended at your suggestion that being gay and a cheater is similar.

 

And more than beyond offended that you "understand" the gay issues/treatment because of the way others view/treat your CHEATING.

 

As a cheater, you had/have laws, laws that protect you. A cheater in most jurisdictions do not lose anything more in a divorce than any other type of divorce.

 

A gay person, would lose their job, their health care, their pensions, their children, police regularly looked the other way on violence towards them....all that just for breathing. There were no laws that protected them in any way, in any situation.

 

They were specifically targeted in policies, laws, procedures that took away any/all rights that every other citizen enjoyed.

 

In so far as betraying another, it doesn't matter what the nature of the relationship is, spouse, child, co-worker, employer, business partner, banker....in all of those scenarios it is more than frowned upon to tell lies, deceive the other for your own personal gain. It directly speaks to your character. In some of those relationships, to betray the other brings civil action and others imprisonment.

 

If one was to follow your thought process to the bottom, one would than have to make everything that society has deemed not acceptable to acceptable because that is just the way they are/think. Are thieves now to be pardoned because expecting conformity to societal laws are actually society imposing its own views and one shouldn't take away someone's right to non-conformity? A man who beats his wife?

 

Is non-conformity now a right to be given? How does that work? What if my non-conformity is non-conformity to non-conformity? Who will win that argument? And what would our world look like without any set of agreed upon rules?

[HereNorThere]

I think OPs first post really is a prime example of the cheater's mindset. We are all very lucky to get a glimpse into what level of rationalization is needed to maintain this type of behavior with being in a state of constant cognitive dissonance. Even when you try to explain that all his points are "apples and oranges" comparisons, he still WON'T accept it. Wow, just wow.

 

I mean, how far into outer space does your mind have to go to start comparing cheaters to an underrepresented, oppressed, protected minority status? Honestly, some of it just sooo far out there.

 

I suppose next cheaters need their own flag and a pride day! We're here, we cheat, get used to it!

 

I think a red flag would be appropriate.

[Sub]

Cheating is a choice. Being gay is not. Comparing them by saying they both lie to conform to societal norms is such an oversimplification that it's an insult to gay people, IMO.

[Sassy Girl]

Every single person here has lied or cheated(in some way, not necessarily with a spouse) in their lives.

 

Sure. But not everyone broke their wedding vows.

 

Would you be so understanding if your wife was out sleeping with other men and lying to your face about it?

 

If your wife isn't the one why don't you just divorce her?

 

Wedding vows are just a promise.... and those promises get broken all the time... not just by infidelity, and not just by the cheating spouse... Just words.

[DbleBetrayal]

You are again missing the point I was trying to make. I apologize that it may not have been clearly or effectively relayed.

 

I don't have to legitimize anything. Reset!!!!!!!!

 

There are certain percentages of the population that try their best to conform to societal norms. It could be gays, it could be non-monogamous individuals, on and on... All during this process they will lie everywhere. Why? Not because they are broken as individuals, but because they are trying to conform/.

 

 

Dude, what you are saying is really vague and can be used to justify any garbage immoral behaviour as simply "conforming". You can make the same arguments you have for cheaters, for say pedophiles. Pedophiles lie and hide what they do. Why? Not because they are broken individuals- but because they are trying to conform- right. Sounds stupid doesn't it. Though it maybe true and justified in the pedos mind, to the rest of us- they are broken.

 

Now we can go round in circles all day, but face the facts. It's immoral behaviour. Simple as that. You can't see it, or don't want to see it because it's what you like.

[Sassy Girl]

My MW, because she chose to partner with me, is not broken.

 

I can sort of related to this. I'm not broken for partnering with my AP. I was broken well, well before, which led to me choosing MY H, at a very young age...I was broken when I agreed to marry and have children with an abusive man...THAT girl was broken.