Podna Posted March 15, 2005 Posted March 15, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter This is what I was referring to. I didn't say that marriages were better or stronger in the old days. I do believe that many divorces are caused by problems that could have been solved if people had worked on them a little harder. This should not be misconstrued into anything other than what it is. I am not even really a proponent of marriage to be honest. I simply pointed out that if you are going to blame a culprit for our high divorce rates, physical attractiveness and superficiality are not the best places to look.
WithOrWithoutYou Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Topaze There seems to be quite an interest in discussing whether or not certain personal preferences are appropriate in dating. - How much emphasis should we place on height, hair colour, weight, etc.? Less emphasis that most people often place on those things. - What role if any do these factors play in a successful relationship and marriage? I think they play less of a factor in continuing relationships, than they do in new ones. Once you figure out who someone is inside, the other stuff, while not completely unimportant, matters a lot less. - In North America has our focus become too superficial? yes - Is this the reason that the divorce rate is so high? No. The divorce rate is so high because people rush into lifetime commitments without considering more carefully what they are really doing, and the real reasons behind why they should or should not be doing something like that. - What are the most important factors for building a long term relationship? Trust, friendship, love, sexual compatibility (i.e. a freak and a prude will not make it together), mutual respect, and that hard-to-describe connection that only some couples seem to have. - What criteria SHOULD we be using to decide who to date and marry? A modified version of the same answer I gave to your last question. She/he should be your friend, someone you love, could trust with your life, are compatible with (sexually and in personality), someone you can respect, who also respects who you are, without trying to make you into someone else, and who you can feel connected to in a meaningful way, and enjoy spending time with. Obviously you won't know all of those things before deciding whether to date someone, but you should know all of those things before even thinking about marrying someone - that's what we have dating for. Basically, look for WHO someone really is inside, if you plan on marrying someone, because in the end, if we live that long, we all get old, ugly and shriveled up anyway, and some of us will eventually get sick when we are old. At that point, the superficial stuff will absolutely not matter, but if you chose wisely, your best friend and lover, that same person, who you are connected to in all the ways that do matter, will still be there.
KissMyTiara Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by CurvyGurl I don't believe in that eHarmony mess. I could find more than half or ALL of those characteristics in an asian guy and still not want to date him because I just don't find him attractive. We might be great friends and I might fix him up with a friend if she thinks he is cute... but I won't personally find him attractive. According to Topaze, this would make you racist against asian men. I know, I know - that's laughable, we know you aren't racist, we know you aren't racially discriminatory, but sadly, Topaze does.
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 Love your answer WithOrWithoutYou. I have read articles written by marriage counsellors and divorce lawyers. No one ever gets divorced because she changed her hair colour, not even sexaul incompatibiliy believe it or not. It has to do with things that are a lot deeper like communication problems, financial problems, clashes in lifestyle preferences. In addition to this: No. The divorce rate is so high because people rush into lifetime commitments without considering more carefully what they are really doing, and the real reasons behind why they should or should not be doing something like that. They really don't spend the time getting to know the other person and discussion expecations. If partners are initially selected for superficial reasons and the courtship is spend in social situations (dates) and in having sex, it is no wonder that people marry and find they have little in common. It's sad really.
blind_otter Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by WithOrWithoutYou Basically, look for WHO someone really is inside, if you plan on marrying someone, because in the end, if we live that long, we all get old, ugly and shriveled up anyway, and some of us will eventually get sick when we are old. At that point, the superficial stuff will absolutely not matter, but if you chose wisely, your best friend and lover, that same person, who you are connected to in all the ways that do matter, will still be there. Thank god I went to school for this sh*t.... You are basically indicating, in your answer, that human beings resist the basic biological urge to look for certain indicators of fertility in females and males. Waist hip ratio in females as an indicator of fertility Male mate preferences male and female mate choice Human mating strategies and sexual preference Adaptively, humans statistically tend to stay monogamous for the amount of time it takes to raise a child through its toddler years. Beyond that, evolutionarily speaking, you are lucky to secure a mate that will continue to provide resources and protection for the family. Psychobabble all aside, there are deeply rooted instinctual factors that play into whether a relationship will be successful or not.
CurvyGurl Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by KissMyTiara According to Topaze, this would make you racist against asian men. I know, I know - that's laughable, we know you aren't racist, we know you aren't racially discriminatory, but sadly, Topaze does. Thankfully, Topaze and I couldn't be on more opposite ends of that spectrum. I am solid and confident in my preferences, prejudices and attractions. Were I racist against asian men, I'd have nothing to do with them whatsoever, and since I have many close Asian friends this would not hold water. I have a galpal who is from Thailand, Sophia. In Thailand, Sophia is incredibly gorgeous-- can't keep the men away from her. While she studied here in America, she seldom had a boyfriend, because men in the US did not find her facial features, body shape, and hair attractive. Did it bother her??? Not really. She met and married a Thai man that knows how beautiful she is and she couldn't be happier. She knew that men in the US like a certain type of woman-- typically caucasian, blonde if he can get it, preferably thin. Black women are not the only race in the world that has to deal with this issue. And while we would HOPE that people could overcome racial differences, the expectation that the general public could be that open minded will go well unfulfilled. Better to center yourself with people who have open minds and expanded horizons and who see race but dont' fixate on it. And if you can't find that where you are, I hope you're free enough to move where the people are more like-minded. I think the OP is looking for some sort of reason or validation as to why men of other cultures don't find black women ( or other races, for that matter) attractive, when the simple answer is ... "because. Just... because." *shrugs*
alphamale Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter Thank god I went to school for this sh*t.... YOU went to school B_0? Adaptively, humans statistically tend to stay monogamous for the amount of time it takes to raise a child through its toddler years. hmmm...that would explain the "seven year itch"!
blind_otter Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale YOU went to school B_0? hmmm...that would explain the "seven year itch"! Yeah, I went to school to study yer MOMMA!
Mz. Pixie Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Topaze, In a perfect world we probably wouldn't judge people by any factors other than what is on the inside. There are probably alot of men who didn't like it that I have a juicy booty- but thankfully my bf does! I think this is a real issue for you perhaps because you've been rejected recently? Have you thought about IC for this issue? I think I've seen three threads about this same thing. If someone's not interested in you- then it's THEIR problem, not yours!
alphamale Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Mz. Pixie If someone's not interested in you- then it's THEIR problem, not yours! I agree MZ PIXIE. if a woman is not into me then it is her loss.
Groovy Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 I think we are too superficial in who we date. But God wired us visually and sometimes the appearance is just not going work for us. But I have tended to look past the appearance as I get older. I look at all the men who were GQ models look alikes but there was just nothing in their brain or they just didn't give enough for what I wanted. And I look back at average joes who really worked hard to make me happy and were awesome in bed, lol. My boyfriend now is an average guy. The one before that drop dead gorgeous to perfection. But flighty as hell and not so great in bed. Didn't really ever offer to do those extra things for me either. And beauty fades with time. If you marry someone for looks what happens when you grow old and someone may get sick and gain tons of weight or lose all their hair? Personality definitely carries the weight. What I look for is someone who is healthy. That means not being seriously underweight or overweight, having good hygiene and that sort of stuff. I try to look past the stuff like back hair or hair loss that means nothing about good health.
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 Thank you for clarifying the rules re: quotes and links Beth. Let me post some relevant information from authoriative sources so that people can no longer simply dismiss what I am saying as Topaz's opinion. I hope that the tone of this thread will be kept civil and focused on the issues. First let's go over some definitions: Discrimination Treating people differently because of their race, ethnic group, color, or other status or characteristic, when there is no legal justification for doing so. Racial Discrimination Racial discrimination is differences in treatment of people on the basis of characteristics which may be classified as racial, including skin color, hair texture, and facial features. (e.g. Mary will not even consider dating an Asian man.) Racial Prejudice Racial prejudice is pre-formed personal opinions about individuals on the basis of their race. Remember the root word in prejudice is pre-judge. RACISM Racism refers to beliefs, practices, and institutions that negatively discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. Sometimes the term is also used to describe the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, or that individuals should be treated differently based on their ascribed race. Since the last quarter of the 20th century, there are few mainstream groups in developed nations who will admit to racial prejudice or discrimination, so identification of a group or person as "racist" is nearly always controversial. Racism may be divided in three major subcategories: individual racism, structural racism, and ideological racism. Some categories of racism are: Institutional Racism Institutional racism or structural racial discrimination -- racial discrimination by governments, corporations, or other large organizations. (e.g. Mary cannot get a job, despite her qualifications, because she is of race Y.) [/b]
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 Note that experts in the field of racism and race relations regard reservations about interracial dating and marriage as racial prejudice pure and simple I will post just a couple of examples: Racism Still Prevalent, More Subtle http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/01/050301-4.html
Pocky Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 I'm not really sure what your point is. I, you and every other person that is a US Citizen has a right to be racially discriminate in their personal affairs. If someone refuses to date someone on race it is their right. It is their business. There really isn't any debate - racial discrimination or personal preference is a right of everyone single person to express. So what is the issue? You don't like that people are racially discriminate in dating? Tough. Go find your own island, create your own government and you can control the personal relationships of your people. Until then, get your opinions, judgments, and issues out of my bedroom.
HokeyReligions Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Garsh! Gee, Really Wilbur? I thought racism was what you did with a pencil eraser! LOL! I'm kidding with you. BTW: Posting links to credible sources is okay, posting copyrighted text is not. I'm not going to discuss the topic with you because you don't seem to get it and I'm never going to agree with you; and I'm of the opinion that you don't know what you are talking about. Have a nice day.
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 http://www.thestarpress.com/tsp/macros/series/stories/0602serlookdifferent.php 'We look a little bit different' By SETH SLABAUGH
alphamale Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Look TOPAZE, most educated and intelligent people of all races know that prejudice and racism exist and won't be going away any time soon. It is more how one deals with it. There are many things that we have no control over or cannot do anything about and racism, prejudice and bigotry are some of them. You need to look at human nature as the cause of many of these problems and human nature is not gonna change, period. Accept it and move on and make the best of your life.
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 This article gives a good sumary of the historical context: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/s98alouis.htm Interracial relationships were once illegal in the US. Many Black men were lynched due to involvement in interracial relationships or suspicion that they were interested in a White woman. Now the laws have been changed but a lot of the underlying attitudes have remained the same. That is why experts in the field contend that this is not about personal preference. It's about racism and racial discrimination.
alphamale Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Groovy And beauty fades with time. you are right GROOVY: If you marry someone beautiful then their looks will fade over time into average looks. If you marry an average looking person their looks will fade over time into F-ugly
WhereSpiritsRoam Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 Do you think we were superficial back in the days of the cavemen? Probably not. I think we feel there are so many "fish in the sea" and believe we can always catch the right one. That's a noble supposition, but it does make us kind of selective in who we choose as our partner. I would like to go back to a point in time where all that mattered were the basic fundamentals - love and physical attraction. Somehow it doesn't quite seem that simple these days.
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/042703/loc_042703010.shtml Moderators Note: Posting copyrighted text is prohibited. Please see our guidelines. I don't have time to baby-sit a thread and continuously deleted copyrighted text. If it keeps up, I will be forced to close this thread. Also note in the guidelines that sources must be credible and relevant to the discussion. Blogs and commercial sites are not considered credible sources of information.
Donut Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 I don't get the point of these threads. People like what they like, thankfully some peoples' attitudes change about racist issues as they get older and wiser. And I'd like to think we are evolving as a human race. It's about choice and personal preference. And personality goes a long way..........
Author Topaze Posted March 16, 2005 Author Posted March 16, 2005 Donut. Take the time to read through the articles with an open mind, understand the historical context and how these dynamics are played out in America today and I think it will become clearer that this is not about personal preference. This essay, which I won't post, also does an excellent job of reviewing the historical context and the significance of this issue: http://www.enotes.com/interracial-relationships/ I have just posted a few articles and there are many more to highlight the fact that this is not about personal opinion. I hope that people will review the articles and give them some thought.
Pocky Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 You don't get it and I'm not sure you're going to get it. I think the people you're quoting would be ashamed of how you're using their words that fight discrimination against others to imply that you have a right to force individuals in a lifestyle they do not agree with. How is there a difference between the people that shun those in interracial relationships and the people that shun those that don't want interracial relationships? Your problem is that you're turning a personal decision regardless of whether it's based on personal preference or racial discrimination into a social issue. It is not a social issue. The story you quoted stated that two people were ostracized for their choices. They were ostracized because they decided to date outside their race. I don't recall anyone stating that an individual didn't have the right to date outside their own race. I don't recall anyone denying anyone else the same rights as someone from another race. What this story states is that everyone has the right to make their own choices of who they date regardless of which race they are from. What this story states is that everyone has the same rights as someone else regardless of their race. What you are saying is that people are not allowed to make their own choice of who they want to date based on race. What you are doing is denying the right that people have died for. What you are doing is denying the right that many African-Americans died for in order to have. You are denying people their personal rights - the very personal rights you claim are so important. You want to compromise the right to live ones own life the way they see fit because you disagree with their decision. You are no different than the person that ostracized someone because they are in an interracial relationship. You are your own enemy because you fight for the very thing you support.
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