I am the OM, MW is abused, brainwashed by abusive husband - advice?

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Well, here is my sad story. I will leave out certain specific details for obvious reasons, but here are the essential elements. About a year ago, I met a MW (Sandra) who was with a horrible, sadistic bastard husband, who did unspeakable things to her (physical, emotional, other - the whole 9). We were just friends, and I was a sounding board for her, and she for me, when I was getting out of another relationship. We got close, and developed feelings for one another, and meanwhile, the sadistic husband got worse (and not due to our feelings - we were not physical and were emotionally close but just close intimate friends).

 

Well, he abused her horribly, and she left him, with plans on getting a divorce, to stay with me. Well, one thing led to another (we already had those feelings), and we were great together during the short period she lived with me in every way, talked of making a life together, etc. etc. He talked her in, and she bought it hook, line, and sinker, and went back to him (I'm sorry, I'm going to change, be the man you married - you know, all that obvious crap). Then when he didn't really change (SURPRISE), she decided she made a mistake, and undid it, and came back to me again. I forgave that, completely, because I knew what she was going through, as there were kids involved, and he used them to full potential, sending her on a horrendous guilt trip, involving all of her friends and family to tell her she was doing the wrong thing, etc. etc.

 

Well, she went back again, when he (everybody together now: "promised to change again"), and I think for a while, he did, outwardly. Unfortuantely (or fortunately, I'm not sure which anymore), the honeymoon period ended, and he reverted back to his old tricks, and now just emotionally abuses and controls her without the physical and other aspect, keeping her immobile and under his thumb, and spending the family money on things besides what would give her freedom and the ability to have a life outside of his house (a running car), but instead insists that the second car is a "no-go" for financial reasons, while buying her other lavish gifts to make her feel more attached to him. She periodically contacts me, thinks of leaving, and periodically tells me she loves me, but does not seem to have the will to make the break (he has her convinced this is how things should be, and that she would be a terrible person if she left instead of "doing the right thing" and staying. Yeah, he is a master control artist...

 

She has pretty much kept me up on what is going on (the good, and the bad), enough for me to form the above opinions with reasonable certainty, and I have shared those opinions with her, but she seems to be in her own little dream world that everything is fine, and is doing what she has to do to change herself to be the sort of wife he wants (basically giving up everything about who she is to be his perfect wife to keep the worse abuse from coming back). What used to be his "bull****", is now him "being sweet". What used to be "annoying", is now "for her own good" - the same exact behavior. He is a classic emotional abuser, knows exactly how to punch her buttons, and she is basically under his spell - those who know anything about the subject, will know what I am talking about - if you don't, use yahoo to search emotional abuse.

 

The obvious advice "if she doesn't want to be helped, you have done all you can" I have already received from everyone who cares, and I know that in some ways it is good advice, but that advice involves her pretty much being unhappy forever (she has said she is not really happy, but uses another word to describe her acceptance of the situation), and me losing her forever - so I thought I would ask here, and maybe get other perspectives, or just hear that same advice again if it really is what I need to hear.

 

I love this woman, and I know her situation is sick, and wrong, but I just don't know what I can do, or even if I should be trying at this point. She tells me (in a candid moment) that I am right about him, that she loves me, but does not know what she is going to do, and any discussion of her current situation, just seems to push her further away. Suggestions?

[goldy]

yes, i have some suggestions i think will be helpful.

i have been in abusive relationships in the past and the biggest thing that one feels in these relationships is a loss of power. now on the one hand it seems that one needs a rescuer, a knight in shining armour to come take us away from all this. the trouble is that when you have lost your feeling of freedom and power, entering straight into another relationship (even if it appears to be a better relationship than the last one) feels like moving from one oppressive situation to another. it may not be an opressive situation but she knows you have feelings for her, in her mind she associates relationships with opression. people will generally stick with the devil they know than the one they dont. it takes a long time to get over these relationships and be ready for the next one. it takes a good few years. in my case i had years and still couldnt handle relationships, it is one of th reasons i find myself in my current situation.

if you care about this woman and realy want to help her regardless of whether she ends up with you or not, here is what she needs.

she needs a friend. she needs you to say to her, listen sandra, i will help you because i believe in the philosophy that those in a better position should help those in a worse position. i dont like the situation you are in because you are not free to be you. if i saw a caged bird i would help to set it free. i will help you for this reason only. let us not talk of me and you, that is not important. if it happens in a few years from now then so be it. i am not interested in that at all. but i will help you because i can, and that is all.

[life loser]

I read another post of yours that you wish all men and women would be honest about their relationships, break up before they saw someone else, etc.

 

well this woman is not the honest partner you are looking for

 

you have tried your best, but you sound like you deserve better

 

take your own advice and find someone who will respect you

[jade_nc]

how many times has she left him? was this the first, or has she left and then gone back to him before?

 

i've had several friends in abusive relationships. sometimes, all the encouragement in the world won't work.

 

a very close friend was in a physically, mentally, and emotionally abusive relationship for 7yrs. i opened my home to her and her child. i gave her nothing but positive comments to help her regain her self-confidence. "you can do this, you aren't alone, i'll help you, always be here for you", etc.

 

he ended up leaving her! that was 4 yrs ago. to this day, she has not had another romantic relationship. he is still keeping her under his thumb. every 3 or 4 months, he'll contact her - just because he cares so much about her....sends her gifts, etc.

 

it got to the point for me when i had to let it go. it was hurting ME too much to watch someone i love go through that. i basically just had to tell her that i loved her, i cared about her, and i would always be there for her to talk to or help with anything she needed - BUT that i did not want to hear and/or talk about this man anymore.

 

i think you can compare it alot to any kind of addiction. i have friends that are alcoholics too. they know they are, they know they can't even walk down the beer isle at the grocery without proceeding to get slammed, they know it's ruining their work, love and personal life. they still pick up the bottle.

[goldy]

thats because the relationship debilitates you so much you feel powerless and weak, the abusive partner has taken so much control of you that the only one that can make you feel better or worse is that same person.

i got out of my situation with pretty much no emotional support and i dont know if it makes any difference if you have support or not, it comes from inside. however i do know that nobody is going to walk straight into another relationship, there is so much to work through from abusive relationships. there is not only the healing from the abuse there is also shame and feelings of failure. sometimes when others advise from the outside it can increase feelings of shame and failure with the victim. i dont know if i can say what is the best advice to give someone or what is the best approach with them. i do know that any declarations of love on your part will put pressure on this woman. i know how suffocating abusive relationships are and every relationship i had for a long time afterwards even now feels suffocating as a result. even from very nice people. when you say you love her she feels she is escaping into another cage. sorry but its true. she may well have feelings for you and she doesnt want you to go away, you probably help her to deal better with the situation she is in. my advice, offer your UNCONDITIONAL help and then if she doesnt leave him just back away, give her some time to deal with and accept that if she wants to be free she really has to take the risk. it is terrifying to leave these men, they are scary, we know that by sticking around and keeping them sweet we are safer, we know what behaviour to expect from them. when you leave you dont know what he will do, sometimes it takes several attempts to test the waters. if they have children it is even more scary, she has to think about the safety of them, again she knows that they are relatively safe if she stays in the situation. the people who show no compassion for these women are plain stupid. it is not so simple a case of he treats you bad so leave. it is terrifying beyond belief to escape.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Thanks for the persepctives, and thanks also to someone who PMed me with some perspective.

 

Goldy:

 

As someone who has been there, I put great value on what you are saying. I wish I didn't love her so much, but I see your point. To me, it is kind of unconscionable that someone would want to stay in a situation like that, but your comment about the "devil you know" does sound a lot like something she once said to me. Not that she was implying I was a bad guy, but she said something like "what if we don't work out - at least I know what to expect with him" (I resisted the urge to say yeah, you know to expect abuse, and worse - and instead, I just listened).

 

I think she knows I would always be only good to her, I don't really think that is the issue in this case. I think she is genuinely concerned that he will find a way to cut her out of her kids' lives. There are things about her (a minor mental health history among other things, no doubt induced by his years of abuse), which he has threatened to use in the event of a divorce to show she is an unfit mother if she leaves. But then, he is also a shady character, and I really do not think she has much to fear from him in that department - she could destroy him in divorce court - and probably cost him his job too - if he ever wanted to make it nasty. He knows this, and has even said at times that he would make a divorce uncontested with joint custody, but I don't think she believes he would follow through on that, and does not feel like she has the strength to take him on (even though, with my help, and what she knows about him, I am certain she would win).

 

I am at a loss as to what to do. The one thing I am seeing, however, is that pretty much backing off is probably the only course of action available to me at this point.

 

life loser:

 

I understand what you are saying about thinking I deserve better, etc., and it is true that she has told me many lies through this whole mess, but I have attributed that to the fact that those are defense mechanisms that she has been forced to use through all those years of abuse, and when she is herself (meaning she has not seen or spoken to him in at least 48 hours), she really is a beautiful person. I actually saw myself maybe spending the rest of my life with her, but at this point, I am tired of waiting while she stays with him, bending herself into pretzels to change the beautiful person she is to conform to exactly what *he* thinks "a good wife should be" (yuck). So yeah, I'm not really feeling the love, or the respect, like I once did, and your advice is not lost on me. I will still be there for her, if she needs to talk or whatever though, and who knows, maybe at some point she will realize what is going on.

 

jade_nc:

 

She has left him for me, twice, and almost done so two other times. Prior to that, I understand that due to his abuse, she reached out to and had secret relationships with a couple other men who treated her decently, but for various reasons, nothing ever materialized out of those either, and she stayed with the abusive one. And I hear what you are saying about how in your friend's situation, he left her. That is what abusive men often do. When they have used up their partner to the point that there just isn't too much left of them, they go find someone else who is more fun to abuse (often while keeping just enough hold on the one they used up to continue to make their lives sad and unfulfilling). I'm really not an expert, but I have read so much stuff on this that it's scary. And yes, it is an addiction, much like alcohol or drugs. Goldy hinted at that as well. Abused people come to need the affirmation they get from the abuser, and he must have the final word on anything important in their lives, because they have lost the confidence to make any decisions on their own. Sadly, I'm starting to think that the only way Sandy will get free of him, is if he lets her go - and he likes the way things are now.

 

Goldy again:

 

I do hear what you are saying about her not being ready for another relationship, and I would no means want to be "the rebound" anyway. But if you knew her, I think you might change your opinion. She is a smart, beautiful, highly intelligent woman, who has WAY too much on the ball to be with a loser like him, who treats her like he does. I think it is honestly mostly about the kids, and her fear that he will find a way to follow-through on his threats to make sure she does not see them (threats which he has now backed off of, because "he has changed now", but you and I both know the underlying threat is still there, and he has insisted on maintaining his image as "Mr. Clean/Martyr" and the lie that the abuse never happened to everyone else, with her being the crazy one, just to drive that point home). She loves the kids dearly (which makes me just love her more), and she could not live without them in her life. And he is the charming con-man type, who is loved by everyone, and has a way of making people believe none of it is true and she is just nuts. Now he has kicked it into low-gear, and is apparently limiting himself to emotional abuse, not doing the physical and the other anymore, so she just stays because it is easier, and risk-free. Sad, but I think true.

 

Again, thanks to all for the thoughts. If anyone has any more advice, it's greatly appreciated.

[Mr Spock]

It's because she's just as sick as him but in a different way. Masochistic.

 

 

Women who learn that this is the way to live need THERAPY. You will not save her on your own. The lure of the abuser is so much stronger than you.

 

This is a cycle that doesn't look like it's going to end for you any time soon. Are you prepared for years of this?

[goldy]

but if i knew her i would change my opinion about what?

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Originally posted by goldy

but if i knew her i would change my opinion about what?

 

That she is incapable of entering into a better kind of relationship, without years of therapy first. When we were together, it really was great, and the major problem was the guilt trip he sent her on about the kids - she has always stated that is why she went back (his "for the kids" mantra and massive guilt trip, coming from him, and from all of her friends and family that he used his "charming con-man" skills to co-opt). She also says that is why she is where she is even now (kids and family pressure), and but for that, she would have left him by now, and would be with me. Yeah, I know that is not 100% true, and she also suffers from the brainwashing that an abusive relationship often involves, but I truly do believe that if she could ever make a decision to not submit to his will, that we could be good together - and that she could probably be a better mom as a result - mostly just because she could be herself, instead of always worrying about having to be what he wants to change her into (and perhaps her kids would not continue the cycle, as they are likely to do if she continues with him like this). I completely accepted her kids, and made clear that I wanted them to be a huge part of our life (one of them was even calling me stepdad at one point - kids are smart, and sometimes jump to the right conclusions at the best moments without even really being told). But still, she did go back, so maybe you are more right than I want to admit. I recognize that could be the case. And maybe I just hate to admit to myself that he has basically ruined her for years, as far as her finding any happiness, or a decent relationship with someone who actually cares about her, instead of just treating her like property (whether that nicer someone else is me, or some other guy she might find) if she ever gets free of him. I hope for her sake, that is not really the case, and that someday, she finds some happiness away from him, whether that is with me, or not. Anyway, none of that changes what I have to do I guess - which is basically do nothing, and leave her in the hell that she thinks is her fate, while he continues to emotionally abuse her. I just wish there was a better solution, but I suppose it is something she has to figure out for herself.

[goldy]

well yes, it doesnt matter how beautiful and smart she is, she still would have baggage that takes a little while to drop and no matter how smart and beautiful she is, she is still being completely controlled by this guy and this situation. she is not happy, so why is she there? fear. you can still be fearful if you are smart and beautiful. i dont get your logic.

yes of course she would be better off with you, you can see that from where you stand and other people looking on could probably say the same, but it doesnt matter how logical you are about it there are still emotions and a percieved loss of power from where she stands.

buy her some good self help books such as the power of now sometimes you are right it doesnt take years of therapy but just a shift in conciousness. even so i dont think the relationship you are seeking is going to happen anytime soon. thats not to say it will never happen. i think you want to help her regardless though because you recognise her worth and dont want to see her fading away.

i think this is good just remember not to let it drain you in the process, you have to ensure you keep your own strength if you want to help her.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Originally posted by goldy

i think you want to help her regardless though because you recognise her worth and dont want to see her fading away.

i think this is good just remember not to let it drain you in the process, you have to ensure you keep your own strength if you want to help her.

 

Yes, I would help her if I could, even if I thought I would never see her again. Just because I care, and don't want to see who she really is fade away - well put.

 

 

As for uberfrau's comments, you seem to hate men. You don't know me, and I'll thank you to not draw conclusions about my motivations or who I am based on your own personal experience - although I am sorry that it appears you have really been through hell, to go off like that they way you did. I guess I don't understand why you feel the way you do. HE is the a$$****, not her. She has taken his emotional, physical, and worse crap for 15 years, while the clever con-man has made all of her friends and family believe that she is the problem, and it has taken a toll on her and changed how she deals with things, and has even caused some problems in her health. Not everybody has the same tools with which to deal with horrible situations. A little compassion would be nice - for her. He does not deserve any compassion in my opinion, but she certainly does.

 

 

If anyone has anything else to say, please don't let those comments distract you. I value your opinions.

[jade_nc]

withorwithoutyou

 

just try to keep in mind that when helping her becomes more detrimental to your personal well-being, than it is helpful for her - it's time to step back.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Originally posted by jade_nc

withorwithoutyou

 

just try to keep in mind that when helping her becomes more detrimental to your personal well-being, than it is helpful for her - it's time to step back.

 

I know, and I have taken a step back. It is what I needed to do, even though I didn't enjoy doing it. If not staying in a situation like that, letting her kids see it, an/or being with me, is important enough to her, I will hear from her again in a meaningful way [and when he impliments his manipulation (which is always the same and easy to spot) to keep her from leaving, at some point, she will make a decision to not let it work]. If not, well - things have a way of working out the way that they should. She is plenty smart enough to see it, and to do something about it - but like goldy said, it has to come from her, and she is the one who has to choose to do something about it.

[kkat]

Hi there - have a few thoughts just in case they are helpful.

 

I'm sure everything I am going to say has been said before, either here or elsewhere, but I'm just hoping maybe there will be some support or reinforcement found in my attempt.

 

First of all, please try to really focus on the fact that you are, seemingly, a healthy individual, and deserve a healthy relationship, and you can't have one with an unhealthy partner. That doesn't mean you should desert her, or avoid relationships with anyone not 100% "together" (no one is) -- but just remember that as unfortunate as it is, she is unhealthy and until she changes that state, she can't be a partner in a healthy relationship.

 

Secondly, you are powerless over other people, including her. We all are.

 

 

As you may know from my posts, I have been a love/relationship addict for years. I am considered beautiful and intelligent, and with a great sense of humor. I have founded successful businesses, have been published, have more friends than anybody I know. I am traveled, articulate, smart as a whip. Boy, I sound like someone who couldn't possibly be....an addict. But I am, of the worse kind. I enter and stay in unhealthy relationships. So I know from this, and it appears your MW is, likewise, addicted to her unhealthy relationship. The fact that she is intelligent and beautiful doesn't change this. She knows it is unhealthy, except for the brief moments where she says otherwise, then goes back to justifying and validating. It's her comfort zone.

 

My relationships have been emotionally abusive, and I have stayed in them. Ironically, the worse the abuse is, the more I scratch to stay in them. This is a pattern of an addictive relationship, and from what I understand, a pattern of abusive relationships in general - in addition to the fact that people become addicted to the abuse itself, in a strange and painful irony.

 

I don't know how much you can help her without hurting yourself. That's my concern for you. You are in my thoughts.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you are right. I have noticed a lot of what you are saying (how it appears she is addicted to this unhealthy relationship), and I also agree that I have no power over her (nor would I want any, unlike the abusive guy - who ironically does have great power over her). It makes me sad, but I have done pretty much all I can do without her at least trying to help a little bit. I hope that you find a healthy relationship that can bring you some happiness. Every nice person deserves that.