liswil Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 Ok, here's another question I have on cheating. A few cheaters that I've known have also stated how religious they are. What I mean is, they seem to mention it fairly often whereas most people who are religious never talk about it much. Because of this, I'm often leary of guys who state how religious they are, how they go to church, read the bible, are a good christian, etc.... The only thing that I can think of is that some cheaters can't deal with their guilty conscience so use religion to cover it up or to absolve themselves. Has anyone else experienced this?
HokeyReligions Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 It's been my experience that people who go around talking about how religious they are, are either (1) arrogant and think that I should be like them; (2) are sincerely trying to help or share something that they love; (3) are using religion as a diversion because they don't want to be found out and religion used to be a good cover. But don't all Christian-based religions admit that everyone is a sinner? Being a Christian does not mean without sin---that would be God wouldn't it!
NTB Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 a cheater is a cheater no matter what i knew a guy who was a marriage counselor for his church but when his wife and kids would go away there be somebody else in her place... so it was weird that people are going to him for advice about how to work through stuff and there he was having affairs.
westernxer Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 Growing up in a religious family, I can definitely see where you're coming from (even though I'm no longer religious). People definitely see faith as a badge that they can flaunt to the masses... mostly it's just an ego booster, or to get public approval. That's why talk is cheap. Faith without works is dead, and those who are whole need no physician to dress their wounds. Jesus himself said those words. I'm not quoting him verbatim, but you get the idea. Your observations are right on the money. I love talking about religion... don't get me started.
Author liswil Posted March 11, 2005 Author Posted March 11, 2005 Most people I know don't go around saying that they're religious on a regular basis. The one's I've known to do it I found out later were doing things that were pretty wrong (such as cheating). I knew a guy last year who considered himself a very religious, church-going christian dad. Turns out he was a player. I also found out when he was married, he cheated on his wife and also abused her.
Pocky Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 People of various religious affiliations cheat. It's not just the "good Christian" that cheats and vocalizes their morality through religion. Maybe it's that people that share this religion are so unforgiving and intolerant of others that people are forced to live a lie so they are not ostracized from their own community. Maybe the biggest problem is not so much that "good Christian" people cheat, but that other "good Christian" people find human faults so unforgivable that people are scared to death to admit their faults and would rather portray an image in order to be accepted in their own community. While I have my own disagreements with Christianity, I think it needs to be clarified that while some people abuse religion for their own purposes, some people are just too ashamed or afraid to admit they aren't as good a Christian as they're supposed to be.
westernxer Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 My sister's community is very much church-oriented... neighbors are also members of the same congregation on Sunday. Your story and the ones she tells me are exactly alike. I guess it transcends borders. Maybe it's just human nature.
billybadass36 Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 Goes back to the debate of whether morality and religion are mutually exclusive ideals. Aquinas felt differently. Most of the religious people I know attend services once a week and call themselves whatever religion they are to make up for the fact that they lead a less than moral existence. What I've always had a hard time with is the religious right's supposed belief in the teachings of Christ, but their everyday actions are fairly divergent from what Christ actually said, did, and taught. It's rather disheartening the lack of compassion that a lot of the self-proclaimed "compassionate conservatives" have in their hearts.
westernxer Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 The religious right... they definitely manipulate the events of the day to justify their moral agenda. They reek of their own self-righteousness, but everyone's pining for recognition and celebrity these days. Or maybe it's always been this way. Goes back to the debate of whether morality and religion are mutually exclusive ideals. I think Christians make it more complicated by emphasizing the ascetic aspects of morality more than practicality and responsibility. That's why the Pope sounds so irrelevant when he issues his creeds from the Vatican. Then we have Jerry Falwell, who can't help but point fingers at everything from the African AIDS epidemic to the tsumani disaster in Asia, saying it wouldn't have happened if the people there had Christian values. Nothing personal, but I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Author liswil Posted March 11, 2005 Author Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by billybadass36 Most of the religious people I know attend services once a week and call themselves whatever religion they are to make up for the fact that they lead a less than moral existence. That's exactly how I see it too.
westernxer Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 There's definitely a social aspect to it. I think that has more meaning to people than the spirtual aspect. People just can't grasp it, and the rewards are less tangible. The prestige of community is too irresistible, and it's less work to pull the wool over their eyes and gain their approval.
billybadass36 Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 I know that sexual predators tend to attend various religious "support" functions because those venues are ripe for the picking of emotionally fragile women.
westernxer Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 You wanna hear a story about sexual predators? I attended a religious university, and two of my roommates went to make some visits to a couple of female units as part of a Sunday function. Basically, it was just to make sure everything was okay, so that the clergy could keep track of how everyone's doing. They came back and said, quite vociferously, that they were never doing it again, since the girls turned out to be fat and ugly. So much for godly intentions. I laughed my ass off! I was supposed to go instead, but one of the roommates insisted on joining us, so I let him take my place. His gain, or was it a loss? You had to be there.
Mz. Pixie Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 I have tried to be a good Christian since I was 8 years old, always went to church, read and followed my Bible, and tried to do the right thing. I still ended up cheating. Anyone can be tempted- Christ was even. I was tempted at a time when I was weak and I fell. I have experienced the height of hypocrisy lately during my divorce. Yes, I know divorce and cheating are wrong but I made a mistake. I had a horribly abusive childhood growing up and later in life my inlaws would always tell me I need to "forgive" the ones who had hurt me. Funny thing is- it's easy to say forgive someone when you've never really had to reach deep down to forgive. Now, they have been hurt by my actions and they have treated me terribly. This from a family that's considered a pillar of the church we used to attend. So it should have been so easy for me to forgive but yet they aren't forgiving me?? People are so judgemental about things. It's easy to sit in judgement when you've never been in that person's shoes. I never once in 10 million years would have thought I would have cheated- right up until 6 weeks before I did. The person sitting beside you on the pew can be anything even a pervert. Same as in the world.
Author liswil Posted March 11, 2005 Author Posted March 11, 2005 I know anyone can be a cheat. What I'm trying to get at is people who need to advertise their religion--in my opinion---are often using it to cover up something morally wrong.
westernxer Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 At the very least, they're trying to hide their superficiality. Doesn't mean they've all got skeletons in the closet, but some of them might be pretty damn close. Still, it's a waste of time trying to analyze them, since we're just as human as they are. To thine own self be true. That's all that matters.
Moose Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by liswil I know anyone can be a cheat. What I'm trying to get at is people who need to advertise their religion--in my opinion---are often using it to cover up something morally wrong. I know it's just your opinion, but I think your view on us Christians, or those advertising their religion, is a pretty poor one. It's not your fault though. What bothers me is the way you say it, and same goes for some of the things westernxer posted. You both seem to be generalize us Christians as a whole. Which in a way you should. We are all components of the body of Christ, but what one does is on his or her own head. What us Christians seem to forget to explain, is that even though we're, "religious", we are still human and make the same mistakes as anyone else. We will answer to them. There isn't a human on Earth that won't. I disagree with your assumption that us religious people use it to cover up our immorality. We know we are sinners, and we know how to freely admit them, where others tend to hide them better. So what you're seeing is the religious people admitting to their faults, where others tend to lock them all away.
westernxer Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 I don't think she was pointing the finger at everyone, and neither was I. It's simply a discussion about hypocrisy in certain individuals who profess their faith openly but lack sincerity. Please don't take our assessments personal. I'm sure you work hard at keeping the faith and being a standard bearer in your community, and I respect that. I really do. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are people who use their faith to exploit the masses. We all know people like this. Doesn't mean the rest of the folks are bad. Like most people, I was raised in a traditional household that emphasized Christian values... it's not unusual for people to take shots at the way they were raised, especially when they begin to break away from the norm. The key is to not let it make you bitter. I certainly don't resent my childhood or the people I once associated with, and I certainly don't think that you and I can't get along. Quite the contrary. People are going to be scrutinized no matter what. The fact that they're religious doesn't impress me at all, because they have to prove their worth as human beings. After all, human beings are what we are, first and foremost. It's great if their religion helps them by providing inner peace, but religion also segregates people into a "members only" frame of mind, or maybe it's the people who do it to themselves. Again, human nature, and the need to be different. Just don't let other points of view upset you. Your faith is something special, and I'm glad you take it seriously. It's a shame that others do not.
moimeme Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 Read up on 'cognitive dissonance'. People want to believe they are good. The will tell you what they believe about themselves even when they behave in ways that put the lie to what they tell you. In fact, one important part of figuring out whether you should take someone on as a lifetime partner is whether that person has a realistic view of himself and his own behaviour or whether he reports himself to be one way and behaves entirely another. I imagine that the greater the difference between a man's words and actions, the deeper are the issues he's suffering.
Author liswil Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 Originally posted by westernxer At the very least, they're trying to hide their superficiality. Doesn't mean they've all got skeletons in the closet, but some of them might be pretty damn close. Still, it's a waste of time trying to analyze them, since we're just as human as they are. To thine own self be true. That's all that matters. I don't find analyzing people a waste of time. I also don't assume by doing so that I'm perfect--by any means. I believe that analyzing helps us in understanding things.
westernxer Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 I think it depends on what you're analyzing them for. In your case it seems okay, but we all have our individual reasons, I suppose. Sorry if I sound like a condescending bastard.
Author liswil Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 It's not your fault though. What bothers me is the way you say it, and same goes for some of the things westernxer posted. You both seem to be generalize us Christians as a whole. Which in a way you should. We are all components of the body of Christ, but what one does is on his or her own head. "US" Christians???? Uh...hello......[waves hand]....Christian speaking here... and I have 12 years of Catholic school under my belt to prove it.....lol. Why did you assume I wasn't a Christian??? Maybe you didn't understand me correctly. My post was not about Christians---it was about people who go around announcing their religion all the time. And NEVER did I say that Christians just use religion to cover up their immorality. I was talking about those who evangelize their religion CONSTANTLY or who CONSTANTLY have to prove to everyone that they are religious.
Author liswil Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 Originally posted by westernxer I don't think she was pointing the finger at everyone, and neither was I. It's simply a discussion about hypocrisy in certain individuals who profess their faith openly but lack sincerity. Please don't take our assessments personal. I'm sure you work hard at keeping the faith and being a standard bearer in your community, and I respect that. I really do. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are people who use their faith to exploit the masses. We all know people like this. Doesn't mean the rest of the folks are bad. Exactly!
Author liswil Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 Originally posted by moimeme Read up on 'cognitive dissonance'. I read up on that 20 years ago when I was studying Psychology in college. Good God, I'm old........ I guess I wanted to hear people's comments on it outside of the textbook.
Author liswil Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 Originally posted by westernxer I think it depends on what you're analyzing them for. In your case it seems okay, but we all have our individual reasons, I suppose. Sorry if I sound like a condescending bastard. I didn't mean to get on the defensive with you. I tend to get like that whenever a poster says something about preventing communication from happening. When a friend of mine gets mad about something, I'll try to find out why. He'll usually tell me "just forget it." or " I don't want to talk about it." I tell him that he's putting a block in communication and that I don't want to hear him come back later and say that I never care what's going on in his life. So yeah, anytime I hear someone putting barrier blocks up, I call them on it.
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