WalkingTall Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Dillemma time for me! As some of you have read previously, I am sooo far in love with my GF of a year and a half. And as some may already know it is a relationship that carries some serious cultural differences. She is Italian / Arabic and I am Caucasian. We have talked about the immediate implications of the cultural differences, such as I cannot meet her family (son, brother, parents) or have them know about me until we are engaged. So it means no phone calls to her house or going there. Actually anywhere where family may be. I have come to terms with that, as she calls me from home or we talk online. I can call her at work and such, which is alright. I do work out of town for long stretches (months at a time), but when I am at home she makes time for me everyday so we can see each other. I want to propose to her when I get back, not because of the cultural thing, but because I know without any doubt that I want to spend the rest of my life with her. My love for her is unconditional, to the point that I would do anything for us to be together. I have even told her if the distance when I am working is an issue then I will find another job in town without hesitation. We were talking yesterday and the subject of culture came up, because something that bothered me from the night before on the phone. She called me as she does most days from home just before she went to bed, and we were having a pleasant convo. Then her brother, who visits often picks up the other receiver, and she said for him to hang up. I wasnt talking at the time, so it was not an issue. At the end of the conversation I gave her a heartfelt I love you as I always do. She tells me to watch it as someone may pick up the extension again, and wispers I love you too back. Fast forward to our conversation yesterday on-line. We get into this cultural discussion because I communicated my feelings about how I have to have restraint telling her how I feel on the phone. She told me that I may find it unusual but she can't say she loves me in front of family. She said that maybe I should re-evaluate whether I can live with this. I told her that I have gone through a year and a half of knowing her, without being able to share her life (family, extra curricular activities, holidays etc). Only the time we spend together, and that I did that cause I know that she is the one I love and want the rest of my life to be spent with her. She goes on to say that it's the way in her family, and it is a very conservative culture. She said that she can't change what they think or their traditions. Affection cannot be public in her culture, and there will be no time that I can show affection to her in front of family including her son. I went on to ask if they would even accept me, and she replied that it wouldn't matter what they think, that she doesn't need their approval. Then she ended the conversation abruptly saying she needed to make dinner. I told her that I have been in the relationship this long, respecting her cultural traditions and that my love for her makes any challenges worth overcoming, but I should know these things in advance. She felt that she may have mentioned them before, but I know that she didn't. So I wait for her call last night and didn't get one. Although she did say she would call. I let it pass as her son is sick and I want her to focus on him getting better. So today, I am talking to her and she just doesn't seem the same. I didn't want to press the issue at all, but felt that something was bothering her, more than just work. I mentioned that she didn't seem herself hoping that she would share what is bothering her. She replied with too much stuff on her mind. As we normally share everything I asked if she wanted to elaborate and she said "just everything going on in my life" and that she didn't feel like talking about it. So I let it go but did ask if it had to do with us at all just so I don't assume anything. She mentioned that it wasn't anything in specific but I am a part of her life so anything she thinks of will include us. I let it be at that and told her that I would be here for her if she needed to talk. Now I don't know what to think, about anything. Your thought on this will go a long way to helping me deal with this. Sorry about the length.... but I needed a big vent to blow through!
Author WalkingTall Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 I guess I should add that I am a very passionate person and show how I feel every chance I get. She says she loves that but when we live together I don't know if I can act as if there are no feeling trying to burst out when her son is going to be there too. I know I love this woman so deeply and completely unlike any love I have ever even thought possible. Is there any compromise I can make.... I would do anything to be with this woman forever!
NTB Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 i can't really give you much on this one cause i don't really know allot about her culture but i do know that there are things that just aren't shown in front of the parents..........i guess really you need to think about this one, you love this girl and want to be with her but your hardly ever going to be able to show her any kind of affection because, and i am assuming here, if you ever were to marry, her son would be around and she wouldn't want you showing affection in front of him. you have to ask yourself is that something your willing to do...........i personally like PDA and if i couldn't do that i don't know how i would react......because just as i like showing her affection i would like her to do the same in return.
Author WalkingTall Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 You are right to assume that. I know her son is a great kid... So I have no problems being a friend to him. This is my first time in a relationship with cultural differences, so I really am at a loss here.
CurlyIam Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Are you sure she told her parents that she has a relationship with someone from outside her religion? Why doesn't she move out? Whey don't you ask her to move in with you before jumping to "the marriage" state? I think she senses that your relationship is reaching another stage and she may not be that at ease with it. Give her time to adjust to the new situation, but don't back out on the way you behave. A relationship is about compromises. Where's her part of the compromise?
NTB Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 i don't know about moving out and moving in with tall would be a good thing i mean they don't want any PDA moving out would be like a slap in the face for the parents besides if tall wants to work through this he wants to stay on the parents good side as much as he can.
Author WalkingTall Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by CurlyIam Are you sure she told her parents that she has a relationship with someone from outside her religion? Why doesn't she move out? Whey don't you ask her to move in with you before jumping to "the marriage" state? I think she senses that your relationship is reaching another stage and she may not be that at ease with it. Give her time to adjust to the new situation, but don't back out on the way you behave. A relationship is about compromises. Where's her part of the compromise? She doesn't live with her parents, but her brother does stay there sometimes. Her parents are in Egypt, and don't know about me.... for that matter none of her family does save her sis.... and to what extent I don't know. She won't move in, again, I would love that, but culture doesn't allow it. As for the last part.... I can't answer that. Which hurts.
crazychick Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 What I don't understand is that she says that she doesn't need her parents approval as to weather or not they will accept you. That's a pretty brave statement. I do see how you can never show affection in front of her parents because if they don't believe in it than that would be disrespectful. However, no affection in front of her son? Even after you are married and living together? That sounds pretty harsh. Especially if you really love someone. Does her son accept you? To me it seems like she is evaluating these things, perhaps because she knows you are serious about her and she needs to be sure that you can both deal with the consequences (from her family) of being together. All you can really do is be there for her, support her during this time - especially if you really want her in your life. The worst thing you can do is pressure her for answers, even though thats what you really want from her. Maybe she is just trying to work thru all of this in her head and doesn't want to say the wrong thing to you or voice her feelings until she is sure of them. Give her a little time. That's the best advice I can offer.
Author WalkingTall Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by crazychick However, no affection in front of her son? Even after you are married and living together? That sounds pretty harsh. Especially if you really love someone. Does her son accept you? As I mentioned, I have not met any part of her family, nor friends of the family. So yes that does bother me as to if her son will accept me as a friend. I do not in any way want to be a father figure to him as his Dad is a big part of his life. And yes even after marriage and living together... But being accepted for who I am, yes I am very concerned about that, because I know they are a close family and I will not let myself destroy what they have. Thank you for your words, every bit really helps.
Pocky Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 I'm a little confused. You have a girlfriend that is unmarried and has a son with another man, yet her culture is so strict that you're not even allowed to meet her family or show any signs of emotion in front of them? I'm not trying to be crude, but she can get pregnant while outside of a marriage and it's not an issue (she has been disowned), but she can't say I love you or show any affection? Something doesn't seem right to me. If her parents aren't even there, why is she so concerned with what her brother thinks? How is she going to spend her life with someone that's been kept a secret?
Author WalkingTall Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 Pocky, I appreciate anything anyone says....so THANK YOU. I should clarify that she is divorced from her husband. They had a son in wedlock.. UPDATE: I talked to her about this again, and I just don't know what to say.... I am trying to find out as much as I can about what is expected of me within her culture. I ask her and she says nothing more comes to mind, and I am portraying her as coming from a different world. I am ignorant when it comes to the muslim culture, but am doing my best to find out what I need to do. She tells me that she thinks I should rethink whether or not I can handle it..... My god!!!! I have been isolated from everything she holds dear for a year and a half! I mean within six months I introduced her to every one of my family members including my son. And for that time, the time I spent with her was when she could. No going to watch her play sports, no holidays, only seeing each other for a night or a few hours. I have said that I felt like I am an outsider in her life. That I am a small segregated portion of her life. I have done this for so long because I believe in the love we share. There is no question that we are deeply in love, and I believe that I have demonstrated that in every way possible. I have been lonely at times when I know she is busy with family, I have been hurt when she has something important to her happening but I can't attend because her son / brother or someone that knows them will be there. I have sat by the wayside when she was sick, even though I desperately wanted to be there to comfort and take care of her. I have done all this and she believes that now I should rethink! I know that hiding any affection once we are married when in front of her son, is going to be so hard. But then I think what someone mentioned here earlier, where is the compromise, why can't there be anything compromised on her part. I am giving 100% of myself to this, but maybe that in itself is where I am going wrong. But then I think, without her I am not alive, not able to love another, she is my life by my choice. I am so confused and hurting just thinking about not having her in my life.
CurlyIam Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Maybe you should take some time for yourself. WT, you're very very involved in this relationship and can't see things right. Apparently she's not enough in it. Go NC for a couple of weeks. LEt her miss you. Let her understand the place you hold in her life. And make her come towards you. You have so much love inside, you are so giving, WT, this is so beatifull to see... but the truth is she is sabotaging herself. Her parents are in Egypt and she has the right to live her own life. She can tell her brother to mind his business. She can explain her son she can go on with her life. WT, I am afraid to tell you this is only the tip of the iceberg. What if you get married and you have a girl? How will she be raised? What about your boy? How will he be treated? What type of education will he receive from her? This is not something you simply catalogue into the "cultural difference" category. IT's something you deal with or will be force to deal with EVERY DAY. That will impact more than your life. Take a step back and analyse this. She is wise. Have a heart to heart talk to her before you go NC. Ask her everything. Ask her if she wants to marry you and on what terms. You have the right to know. And you have to know. The sad thing is that if you don't do it, it won't go away. Your problems will still be there. So in order to solve a problem, you have to understand it, to have all the information. I suggest you note down everything that crosses your mind and talk to her about it. And then see who compromises on what.... WT, it's very very serious. We're talking about lifestyle here. You'd become very miserable if you are the only one accepting to sacrifice. Think about this. I wish love to be enough... at times, it just isn't.
Author WalkingTall Posted March 11, 2005 Author Posted March 11, 2005 I had to read that twice.... It really hit home. The children aspect of it, I can see that there would be an issue if that is possible... mind you there still is a small possibility of that (ie tubes tied). Thinking of how much love and affection that we show each other now, like holding each other, gentle caresses, looking in each others eyes for minutes on end without saying a word....just knowing what lies in our hearts. Every time I am with her, little things like that and running my fingers through her hairs as we lay on the couch together just soothe me, sharing those intimate feelings of love and desire. How can that be stopped and bottled up?????? Tip of the iceberg.... good analogy.... because that is what I want to find out. How can a hug, a kiss be so wrong in front of immediate family. To me it has always set an example of a loving relationship should be to children. Showing them not to be afraid to love and show it. How can people show indifference to each other in front of their kids? And if that is a part of the culture, what else? As for the NC, I am going to come home in a couple of days from work 1400 km away, which I have been here 3 and a half months, away from her. I can't just say sorry we need to be away from each other.... For me that would kill me inside. But you are right... we need to talk about this, and I am seriously afraid... I am shaking right now just thinking about it. She has said that she doesn't want to be hurt, to let her know now if I can handle this. All I can think of is that when I told her how I felt the first time I knew I loved her, I knew there was an inherent risk of getting hurt. Any relationship you enter into, there is that risk. By sticking with this, and with all the love we have shared, I believe I have proven that I want to make this work. And yet at every turn, she tells me she doesn't want to be hurt and thinks I should rethink whether or not I can handle this. I put every effort I can muster into us, as I know she has too. Maybe this is too much for her to compromise.... Only time will tell. Curly, thanks so much again!
CurlyIam Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 WT... I don't mean to be disrespectfull, but ask her about how she sees the role of a woman in a society. Ask her much much more many things. If you don't have kids you son will bring home friends. On what terms? What about his gf? Will he also be prohibited to have girls over? Because you can be sure her son will be prohibited to do so. The display of affection is only what you can percieve. There was a book a couple of years ago that really got to me, called "Only with my daughter", the story of an American woman who married a Muslim. It depicts my biggest fears. I know that basically the Muslim culture is the most peacefull of all cultures. But there are a lot of people that live by the letter of Coran. I know you're in a tough spot now and being away tends to exagerate your feelings (or appreciate more what you've got). WT, there are so many women out there who would be UTTERLY happy with a tenth of what you're offering this woman. Me included. I stick to my oppinion, you should not call or see her for a while. You chose when. And if it does nothing to her, my friend... you have your answer. Please have the courage to see the bigger picture. IT's like a puzzle right now, you look and analyse every piece of information... and you lose the perspective. At least think about this. She should hurt if you deprive her of your presence. She should acke for you, WT... Is she?
Pocky Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 From my understanding of the Muslim religion, I'd like to point out: 1) She is divorced. Divorce is not thought highly of within the Muslim religion and is supposed to be the last resort to solving marital problems. If her family was so religiously strict, how did she get a divorce without them controlling the situation? 2) If her family is so religiously strict, why is she not living with her parents again after having gotten a divorce? From my understanding strict Muslim woman are not allowed to live alone or even go out in public without a male family member to ensure their proper conduct. How is it her family is so religiously strict, yet she conducts herself as an American-Muslim? Personally, I think there is something else wrong here and the strict Muslim family is just a barrier that she's using to keep things at a distance.
Pocky Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 We have talked about the immediate implications of the cultural differences, such as I cannot meet her family (son, brother, parents) or have them know about me until we are engaged. Maybe you should read up on the Muslim religion. For both Strict and Eid Muslims, couples are introduced to each other, either by parents or friends. (Less often they meet at school or in their local community.) They spend time talking over the phone or on the Internet and even going on dates, though for Strict Muslims, a chaperone is always present. Once they have decided they like each other, the couple is married under Islamic law by signing a marriage contract. This event, called the nikah, is as binding as a marriage. However, the couple is seen as engaged in most Islamic cultures and in American-Islamic culture. The signing of the agreement allows them to spend more time together. Strict Muslims still have a chaperone present and do not even hold hands.
Author WalkingTall Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 thanks pocky! I am doing my best to read up on this... and the talks on this subject are continuing between her and I.... I feel there has been some better communication since the advice of the both of you sank in... I will keep you updated, and my heartfelt thanks goes out to you.
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