Tayla Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 make sure you lead them to the paths, yet for any person the final proclamation is theirs and theirs alone. light the path. all i know is that at the end of the day... i know less and believe more... parents in some ways do need to be bias ... it challenges the kids to rebel and finally have that... ahh hah moment!( and there in lays a spiritual awakening)
Mascara Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 You can raise your child within a strong moral framework that doesn't include a god or religion. The UK is fairly secular, and it's how I and most people I know were raised. I agree that love and wonder for a higher power isn't necessary. Love and awe of the human race is. I raised my own children in respect and care for others - caring for an elderly neighbour, sponsoring children in the third world, getting involved with Amnesty International, supporting and attending human welfare events. Your father in law may be concerned - as many are - that raising children without religion means raising them without a core set of moral values or without awe of a higher power. Reassure him that neither of things will happen, and that you will present her with all the options before she makes an informed decision herself. And that in the meantime you will be active in ensuring her moral development, and that the love and respect of humanity will be the "higher power" that will guide that. 3
Got it Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 The golden rule huh? It would appear that you're all for teaching 'fantasy' then... Luke 6:31 "Do to others as you would have them do to you" You would then argue that by using the word "DO" it is teaching fantasy as I believe it is in the bible. So must be teaching it! Okay, so out of 1,000 pages, one piece is pulled out and nothing else. So yes, I am fine with simplifying religion to that little nugget. That is about as good as it gets. 1
Quiet Storm Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Although raised Catholic, I am not a believer. My husband was raised Christian. In elementary school, I told my Mom that God was an imaginary friend for grown ups. She banished me to hell, and I decided she was nuts. (I don't believe that now, but in my kid mind I did). It's not that I lost my faith, I simply never had it. I never believed what church and CCD was telling me, and was amazed that so many just accepted it. My husband and I decided to raise our kids without religion, but with many Christian traditions. So we did not tell them about heaven & hell, we did not tell them God made them, we do not tell them to pray to God. We believe in the golden rule, treat others how you would like to be treated. We believe in being kind, showing respect for yourself & others, being held accountable with real consequences, self reliance and reaching out family & friends for support (as an alternative to praying to God). We believe when you die, you die. You live on in the memories of your loved ones, but no seeing each other later in heaven. So treasure every moment with them. When we talk about the Bible, we regard it as a traditional book of stories, not as truth. They have morals and values, and so far they have turned out fine. They get good grades, stay out of trouble, have lots of friends and are well mannered. My oldest is a freshman in college on an academic scholarship. So I do not believe that religion is needed to keep people in line (or from sinning). You can instill good values in your kids without fear, and you can teach compassion and consideration without using Jesus as a role model. We did, however, explain the story of Jesus and do celebrate Christmas for the tradition. Not the religion. Unfortunately, there have been times when my kids were judged for this, and also times when they were very confused. My daughter came home one day from school terrified because her friend drank the blood of Christ. My youngest asked me if Jesus was a zombie after hearing a kid talk about Jesus has risen. A few kids have told them they are going to hell. There is always the "if you don't believe in God, then who made you?" question, which my kids simply respond with "My mom & dad made me". So when you decide to raise your kids without religious influence, you have to prepare them for the judgement of others. It can be confusing for them, and others may judge them. I don't like that, but accept it as a reality. We have had quite a few talks with them stressing the importance of respecting other people's religion. I tell them when they hear someone saying "Granny went to heaven", to just let them believe. Do not say "No she isn't". Do not call Jesus a zombie to anyone. We tell them not to question their friends' faith, just accept it that it's what they believe. I told them it's not their responsibility to "enlighten" others. Luckily, we live in a diverse area that is mostly respectful of others beliefs. I've gotten a lot of flack from friends & family members about this. Even people in my life who admit that they question religion and the presence of God, often take their kids to church and perpetuate those beliefs. I decided very young that I could not teach my kids to believe something that I did not believe. It's one thing to lie to little kids about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but religion is a total way of life. I'm not going to tell them what I think is not true, just so they will be comforted by the thought that someone bigger is watching over them. I have always told them that they can believe if they choose to. They have gone to church with family members & friends occasionally, and have many religious people in their lives, so we do not shelter them from religion. I will also respect any choices they make in the future about religion. Edited October 15, 2014 by Quiet Storm 3
Mascara Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I have no problem celebrating the Christmas holiday because it was itself taken from other belief systems. To me, it's a winter celebration where we have a tree and exchange gifts and come together as a family. It's just easier to call it Christmas, but religion doesn't feature in it all for my family. I do love folk stories though, and to me that's what religious books are. Folk stories. So the nativity story (for example) I still find sweet and I enjoyed seeing my kids perform in it at school when they were young. But I also enjoyed seeing them perform in Hansel and Gretel 3
central Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 We didn't teach our son any religious ideas for years, but my in-laws did a little brainwashing while doing child care for us. Eventually, my wife even went back to her religious roots after years of atheism. Not a problem, as it doesn't hurt my son to learn about what many believe it and to understand cultural references. However, when he was older, I made sure I introduced the concepts of other beliefs and non-beliefs, ideas of evidence, and healthy skepticism. He made up his own mind.
Redheaded Mistress Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Obviously I'm looking into the future many years from now. Like when she is a teenager, or younger, but you have to start thinking about these things. So I guess my question is, has anyone dealt with something similar? You'd be surprised... It comes up faster than you think it would. My MIL is deeply religious, but not just religious, but like... RELIGIOUS. Women wearing pants is bad, drinking is a sin, homosexuals are evil, all other religions are the devil, rapture is coming now courtesy of Ebola level of religious. We assert that we're teaching the kids about Christianity but we don't show our hand as it were that we're teaching about other things as well. Like she'd have had a royal cow if she knew yesterday I was talking to my son about gay marriage in positives. When she does confront us, we say that we're teaching him "the faith" as well as a "greater understanding of God and religion." I'm sure we will have to be assertive as time goes on, but that's part of being a parent. Protecting our kids and our ideals as parents.
HereNorThere Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 I think if you're honest about what the belief in god(s) really is, they'll grow up with a healthy acceptance. You just explain to them that before we had science, people used to make stories up to explain the unexplainable and some people have not evolved past that sticking point yet. Explain that humans derive their morals biologically because we have evolved the capacity for empathy, not because we're scared of the boogie man. Also, you're gonna have to grow a pair about this father in law. You think he'd let anyone indoctrinate his children into another religion? I'm guessing he wouldn't, so why should you? The problem with a lot non-believers is that they are too passive when it comes to these sorts of issues. With all of the harm, guilt and shame involved with religion, there's no way I'd allow my children to be brainwashed with some 2000 year old, middle eastern, sheep herder philosophy.
Got it Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Although raised Catholic, I am not a believer. My husband was raised Christian. In elementary school, I told my Mom that God was an imaginary friend for grown ups. She banished me to hell, and I decided she was nuts. (I don't believe that now, but in my kid mind I did). It's not that I lost my faith, I simply never had it. I never believed what church and CCD was telling me, and was amazed that so many just accepted it. My husband and I decided to raise our kids without religion, but with many Christian traditions. So we did not tell them about heaven & hell, we did not tell them God made them, we do not tell them to pray to God. We believe in the golden rule, treat others how you would like to be treated. We believe in being kind, showing respect for yourself & others, being held accountable with real consequences, self reliance and reaching out family & friends for support (as an alternative to praying to God). We believe when you die, you die. You live on in the memories of your loved ones, but no seeing each other later in heaven. So treasure every moment with them. When we talk about the Bible, we regard it as a traditional book of stories, not as truth. They have morals and values, and so far they have turned out fine. They get good grades, stay out of trouble, have lots of friends and are well mannered. My oldest is a freshman in college on an academic scholarship. So I do not believe that religion is needed to keep people in line (or from sinning). You can instill good values in your kids without fear, and you can teach compassion and consideration without using Jesus as a role model. We did, however, explain the story of Jesus and do celebrate Christmas for the tradition. Not the religion. Unfortunately, there have been times when my kids were judged for this, and also times when they were very confused. My daughter came home one day from school terrified because her friend drank the blood of Christ. My youngest asked me if Jesus was a zombie after hearing a kid talk about Jesus has risen. A few kids have told them they are going to hell. There is always the "if you don't believe in God, then who made you?" question, which my kids simply respond with "My mom & dad made me". So when you decide to raise your kids without religious influence, you have to prepare them for the judgement of others. It can be confusing for them, and others may judge them. I don't like that, but accept it as a reality. We have had quite a few talks with them stressing the importance of respecting other people's religion. I tell them when they hear someone saying "Granny went to heaven", to just let them believe. Do not say "No she isn't". Do not call Jesus a zombie to anyone. We tell them not to question their friends' faith, just accept it that it's what they believe. I told them it's not their responsibility to "enlighten" others. Luckily, we live in a diverse area that is mostly respectful of others beliefs. I've gotten a lot of flack from friends & family members about this. Even people in my life who admit that they question religion and the presence of God, often take their kids to church and perpetuate those beliefs. I decided very young that I could not teach my kids to believe something that I did not believe. It's one thing to lie to little kids about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but religion is a total way of life. I'm not going to tell them what I think is not true, just so they will be comforted by the thought that someone bigger is watching over them. I have always told them that they can believe if they choose to. They have gone to church with family members & friends occasionally, and have many religious people in their lives, so we do not shelter them from religion. I will also respect any choices they make in the future about religion. QS - great posting about it. That was more how my parents did it. They/we respect other's needs for religion and do not fault them for it but we do not choose to believe. There is that leap of faith required that I, personally, just do not have. My belief is religion in there to give comfort for others and if it brings comfort than I am pleased that people have it. Your story reminded me of this friend in middle school. She was the first Born Again I had met and she was CONVINCED she was going to save me and that I needed saving. I was okay with her attempts, went to some of her functions, but it is no more "home" to me than just learning about other people's culture. It doesn't make me want to own it as my own. I had a blast going to my best friend's CCD parties though! Great food and cute boys in her class! 1
Mascara Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Interesting point there about zombies and how children believe things. Transubstantiation is the wine and bread becoming the blood and body of Christ. Not in a symbolic or figurative way - it's supposed to become the actual blood and body. Literally. No ambiguity. If I was a kid, that'd scare the crap out of me too.
amaysngrace Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 How can so many people experience the same thing? The same connection? How can it be that we are all from different walks of life yet are unified in our same belief? For years and years it has repeated itself throughout humanity. Just because some people just don't get it does not mean that they are correct. It just means that they don't get it. I can only hope that one day their hearts will be open. 2
Mascara Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 How can so many people experience the same thing? The same connection? How can it be that we are all from different walks of life yet are unified in our same belief? For years and years it has repeated itself throughout humanity. Just because some people just don't get it does not mean that they are correct. It just means that they don't get it. I can only hope that one day their hearts will be open. I could say the same about Islam. Or Hinduism. Or atheism. 2
amaysngrace Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 I could say the same about Islam. Or Hinduism. Or atheism. Actually no you can't. The first two experience God in some form while the third has yet to have that same experience.
Mascara Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Hindus believe in many gods. Your god says there is no other god beside him. Hindus could quite easily say you "just haven't got it yet." I do not hope that "one day your mind will be open". I'm not one of those atheists who is infuriated by religious people - the most I feel for you is pity (generic "you"). So I don't need a debate about who is correct. I do, however, need not to be told that my heart isn't open because I don't subscribe to one of dozens of deity worships. 3
central Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Actually no you can't. The first two experience God in some form while the third has yet to have that same experience. I would disagree. Having once believed in God, I now experience God as a man-made fiction. 1
Author wed4ever Posted October 17, 2014 Author Posted October 17, 2014 I would disagree. Having once believed in God, I now experience God as a man-made fiction. I didn't intend for this thread to turn into a discussion on theology but as long as we are on it, I agree with your statement. I was a born again christian for 15 years before becoming agnostic. The transition took about 4 years and I'm still at it. Faith is a powerful thing. Whatever a person believes to be true will be reality in their minds. I think that is why God is so real to some people. He was very real to me. Not so much anymore. The only thing that changed was my faith. 1
Got it Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 How can so many people experience the same thing? The same connection? How can it be that we are all from different walks of life yet are unified in our same belief? For years and years it has repeated itself throughout humanity. Just because some people just don't get it does not mean that they are correct. It just means that they don't get it. I can only hope that one day their hearts will be open. And just because you have "experienced it" does not mean it is correct and that others just haven't opened their hearts to it. The same is true. And this is what is frustrating to those who don't believe. Why the need to drum into "us" that we are wrong. Why not respect that while you believe others are allowed not to and that, with the many different religions on this planet, maybe there is something different for each person. Though I must say the Great Spaghetti Monster is really gaining in popularity.
Scrivdog Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Sounds to me like you wised up and your wife didn't. Christianity as with all other mainstream religions are a mish-mash of bronze-age bullcrap that has zero meaning in today's world. The morality taught in the bible is almost entirely incompatible with today's standards. Unless of course you condone polygamy, slavery, infanticide, genocide, etc. You've discovered and are now exercising your critical thinking skills - much to the chagrin of your bible thumping entourage, I'm sure. Despite the fact that you're going to come under a lot of pressure not to - the best thing you can do now is pass on those skills to your kids; teach them to go ahead and listen to any religion they want to for the purposes of understanding what other people let themselves believe - but that they should always demand proof before believing. Don't even get me started on the "intelligent design" morons. Edited October 18, 2014 by Scrivdog
amaysngrace Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Hindus believe in many gods. Your god says there is no other god beside him. Hindus could quite easily say you "just haven't got it yet." I'd really like to have that conversation. I'm convinced that we would realize that we are brothers and sisters in faith and that our experiences are similar in nature...especially knowing that Hindus respect and are tolerant of all forms of religion because they believe that each is a pathway to God. 1
goodyblue Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 I'd really like to have that conversation. I'm convinced that we would realize that we are brothers and sisters in faith and that our experiences are similar in nature...especially knowing that Hindus respect and are tolerant of all forms of religion because they believe that each is a pathway to God. Your experiences are similar in nature just like the people who followed Jim Jones. 1
amaysngrace Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 Your experiences are similar in nature just like the people who followed Jim Jones. That's not very kind and a bit presumptuous as well. We are not owners but stewards of the life God gives us and therefore it's not ours to take. But I'm done discussing this with non-believers such as yourself at the OP's request. Shalom
goodyblue Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 That's not very kind and a bit presumptuous as well. We are not owners but stewards of the life God gives us and therefore it's not ours to take. But I'm done discussing this with non-believers such as yourself at the OP's request. Shalom Yes, please. Be done.
Clockwork Posted October 26, 2014 Posted October 26, 2014 I think if you're honest about what the belief in god(s) really is, they'll grow up with a healthy acceptance. You just explain to them that before we had science, people used to make stories up to explain the unexplainable and some people have not evolved past that sticking point yet. Explain that humans derive their morals biologically because we have evolved the capacity for empathy, not because we're scared of the boogie man. Also, you're gonna have to grow a pair about this father in law. You think he'd let anyone indoctrinate his children into another religion? I'm guessing he wouldn't, so why should you? The problem with a lot non-believers is that they are too passive when it comes to these sorts of issues. With all of the harm, guilt and shame involved with religion, there's no way I'd allow my children to be brainwashed with some 2000 year old, middle eastern, sheep herder philosophy. Is "brainwashing" your children into not believing in God from the get-go as some fairy tale any different than telling them from the get-go that God does exist? There's no difference. The point is, as a parent you are going to extend your beliefs - strong or moderate - to your children. No parent has ever said, "Well he's 5 years old, he's old enough to make up his own mind." Trust me, as a parent I can assure you that whatever belief you hold, you teach it in your household and influence your children with it. Which is why I don't think having two different beliefs as parents is a healthy thing between the two of you, let alone trying to teach your children this.
TexasMan68 Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 Instead of teaching her about religion have your wife teach her how to have a relationship with Christ. "Religion" is what messes people up and turns more people away from God than anything else. Too many religions are just about going to church on Sunday and Wednesday and going through the motions. These are the same people that go to strangers, the internet, friends for advice about their marriage, children, jobs...etc instead of going to God for help. I know this post will stir some people up but hey Jesus stirred up a lot of folks with his preaching. Some people just don't like hearing the truth.
goodyblue Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 Instead of teaching her about religion have your wife teach her how to have a relationship with Christ. "Religion" is what messes people up and turns more people away from God than anything else. Too many religions are just about going to church on Sunday and Wednesday and going through the motions. These are the same people that go to strangers, the internet, friends for advice about their marriage, children, jobs...etc instead of going to God for help. I know this post will stir some people up but hey Jesus stirred up a lot of folks with his preaching. Some people just don't like hearing the truth. The truth in who's view? I believe in science and the world around me. 1
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