Who "should" ask who out...

[Els]

Can't say I blame them though, I was in their territory and I was dressed as a police officer with handcuffs.

 

ROFL you should've brought a balding partner so you could go as Mr. Slave from Southpark!

[StanMusial]

I think the guy should ask out the girl. There's no law against the girl asking out the guy though. It's just the way we are.

 

Fortune favors the bold. This I know from experience.

[braindamage]

To hell with social expectations - I got asked out by a girl and that worked out fine. Sure I'd have no problem asking a girl out if I'd had some clear signs of interest but who cares if it's the other way around? In the end I'm only interested in the end result, a good relationship with someone compatible, and I couldn't give a **** if years ago that started with me asking her or visa versa.

[Kofybean]

 

Um, I have. I have asked guys out, and been rejected. I have had guys accept first dates, then been rejected. I have had guys sleep with me, then reject me for a relationship. I have had guys date me for several months, who actually weren't that interested!, and then reject me.

 

The first of those options hurts, but hurts far less than realizing I wasted time on guys who weren't interested, and only agreed because I pursued them first.

 

How is any of that specific to women?

[Toodaloo]

How is any of that specific to women?

 

Because women only have a limited amount of time in which they can reproduce and most of us are geared by our hormones to produce babies.

 

Men can carry on well into their 70's.

 

That makes our "time" precious to us and no in general no person male or female likes to waste time.

[braindamage]

Men can carry on well into their 70's.

 

Actually that's not entirely true - volume, speed and quality of sperm decreases. Between 30 and 50 there's something like a 5x degenration of the overall effectiveness. There's plenty of men who opt to not go the 'natural' route after a certain age because they consider the complications that come with it.

 

Although I do agree that the female biological clock is probably more harsh.

[boilingpoint]

Because women only have a limited amount of time in which they can reproduce and most of us are geared by our hormones to produce babies.

 

Men can carry on well into their 70's.

 

That makes our "time" precious to us and no in general no person male or female likes to waste time.

 

Men carry on into their 70s? With who?

 

Wanna date a 70 year old guy? a 60 year old? a 50 year old? I thought not....

 

This probably only applies to cultures where the guy approaching is the norm though. If the culture was different, say a very egalitarian culture in perhaps Sweden or the Netherlands, then it might not apply.

 

Well I love equality. Anything less than than that starts causing problems for me.

 

And once again, girls' On switches when it comes to attraction can come from personality. A guy can go from "No" to "Hot" very quickly, depending on his personality. I have never heard of a guy who had a similar switch.

 

Be honest: have you ever met a girl who you were not at all, even a little attracted to, only to discover her personality and suddenly want to sleep with her? I'm gonna guess no.

 

Seriously?? Guys 'don't have an On switch'? Where the hell do you get this crap from?

 

Yes I've met girls that I didn't like only to get to know them better and like them more. Usually the ones who were considerate, didn't have their mind full of bull**** dating myths and didn't have a problem being themselves i.e. a HUMAN BEING with good personality and the ability to connect. Of course we both had to give it a chance and we both had to find each other physically attractive enough too.

 

All the problems with dating and 'asking guys out first' you mention just seem to be your personal issues rather than general rules about men and women and the general problems both have with dating.

 

I will say that I've met both celibate guys and celibate girls. You know what I noticed? The celibate guys are a lot better looking.

 

Sorry to be blunt but any girl who couldn't get a date was usually just HIDEOUS or about as sexy as having someone kick you in the nuts.

 

So, it's still obvious that guys totally have it harder in dating (all things being equal of course) only because the cultural norm in western countries is for guys to do the chasing.

 

Guys should recognise this and stop chasing so much.

Edited October 9, 2014 by boilingpoint

[Els]

Well I love equality. Anything less than than that starts causing problems for me.

 

 

Move to a Scandinavian country, then. They're typically very egalitarian, from what I've heard. Though you should probably bear in mind that egalitarianism tends to go both ways. So you might have to let go of some double standards that you might have picked up from your current culture.

[boilingpoint]

Move to a Scandinavian country, then. They're typically very egalitarian, from what I've heard. Though you should probably bear in mind that egalitarianism tends to go both ways. So you might have to let go of some double standards that you might have picked up from your current culture.

 

When I say I love equality I actually mean that, so no, I'm considerate enough to see when I have advantages over someone else.

 

I'm not moving to Scandinavia though - it's a nice idea and I'll read up about it but apart from the dating rituals in the USA and UK, I do like the culture overall.

[gaius]

There is a bit of an art to this . . . driving from the back seat but it depends on the man.

 

I tried encouraging 1st.

 

I met an attractive man at an event. We chatted for most of the time. Turns out he was in the market for a service I provide so the bulk of the conversation was work / professional. When it was time for me to go, I handed him my business card & told him that I'd be happy to help him if he called but I'd be happier if he called me for personal reasons. I winked as I said the last part & left.

 

A few days later he called & asked me to dinner. Over dinner he admitted that if I had not said that he never would have called.

 

Whatever approach you take, you have to be happy in your own skin & with your choices. There is nothing wrong with asking a man out but if by doing so you think you are emasculating him, then it's going to end up in disaster.

 

With the man who is now my husband, I maneuvered situations so we'd be alone. I send short messages & voice mails. I made sure to get off the phone quickly & 1st. It was tough because he wasn't responding the way I expected him to. I finally gave up & let my alpha side loose & we were both happier.

Just out of rampant curiosity, did your first husband do the pursuing?

[Toodaloo]

Actually that's not entirely true - volume, speed and quality of sperm decreases. Between 30 and 50 there's something like a 5x degenration of the overall effectiveness. There's plenty of men who opt to not go the 'natural' route after a certain age because they consider the complications that come with it.

 

Although I do agree that the female biological clock is probably more harsh.

 

Even more reason for us to have to get selective while the "goods" are still "hot" so to speak.

 

A comment that completely contradicts my other opinions but there you are!

[Frank2thepoint]

Unfortunately, labels are part of life. We all have to deal with it. I got labeled a creep for walking a woman to her car. She works in our building on a different floor and I don't know her. It was raining and she didn't have an umbrella. It was a 2 minute walk with no conversation (I was on a conference call on my headset). The next day, while smoking with our receptionist, this woman said: "It was pouring so bad last night. Some creep from your company had to walk me to my car." Does this mean I should never offer to share my umbrella with people in the lobby when I'm leaving the office?

 

Although it is unfortunate the girl labeled you a creep, you did present yourself as a "creep" (see bolded). You didn't talk to her. Out of courtesy, you could of at least asked her if she wanted you to escort her to her car. By engaging in a conversation, you could of built a minutiae of rapport.

[Toodaloo]

Yes I've met girls that I didn't like only to get to know them better and like them more. Usually the ones who were considerate, didn't have their mind full of bull**** dating myths and didn't have a problem being themselves i.e. a HUMAN BEING with good personality and the ability to connect. Of course we both had to give it a chance and we both had to find each other physically attractive enough too.

 

All the problems with dating and 'asking guys out first' you mention just seem to be your personal issues rather than general rules about men and women and the general problems both have with dating.

 

I will say that I've met both celibate guys and celibate girls. You know what I noticed? The celibate guys are a lot better looking.

 

Sorry to be blunt but any girl who couldn't get a date was usually just HIDEOUS or about as sexy as having someone kick you in the nuts.

 

So, it's still obvious that guys totally have it harder in dating (all things being equal of course) only because the cultural norm in western countries is for guys to do the chasing.

 

Guys should recognise this and stop chasing so much.

 

Boiling point you are going to struggle a lot if you think that a "hideous" girl is not worth the time or bother. I knew a girl at college who guys just used to walk by and ignore all the time.

 

Funny how when she put some make up on and caught her modeling contract they all came flocking...

 

Perhaps you just do not see the good.

 

While I agree that not everyone can be a poster girl/ guy those that are not have some very admirable and attractive qualities. They may have stunning eyes or a beautiful smile...

 

Looks fade or can be wiped out in a second. Heaven forbid you ever have an accident that turns you "hideous"...

 

Far from the women here wanting men to ask them being shallow I think your comments are getting worse as this conversation goes on and that is really unattractive.

 

Gaius - the question is not about pursuing its about who should ask who out... Pursuing is for anyone!! As per the example we can make it very bluntly clear while still allowing the chaps to ask!

[Toodaloo]

Although it is unfortunate the girl labeled you a creep, you did present yourself as a "creep" (see bolded). You didn't talk to her. Out of courtesy, you could of at least asked her if she wanted you to escort her to her car. By engaging in a conversation, you could of built a minutiae of rapport.

 

I disagree.

 

He was working hand gestures etc could have taken the place of speaking to her and she obviously got the point as she accepted his help!

[Keenly]

Because women only have a limited amount of time in which they can reproduce and most of us are geared by our hormones to produce babies.

 

Men can carry on well into their 70's.

 

That makes our "time" precious to us and no in general no person male or female likes to waste time.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Frank2thepoint]

Um, I have. I have asked guys out, and been rejected. I have had guys accept first dates, then been rejected. I have had guys sleep with me, then reject me for a relationship. I have had guys date me for several months, who actually weren't that interested!, and then reject me.

 

All these guys have one thing in common. You. The question you should be asking is what are you doing to attract such men? Do you establish your boundaries? Do you mention what are you looking for? Clearly? Do you become codependent?

 

In addition, the men that would ask you out first, will not guarantee that they are genuinely interested in you as you believe, if you make the same mistakes as the you did with the guys you asked out.

[Toodaloo]

All these guys have one thing in common. You. The question you should be asking is what are you doing to attract such men? Do you establish your boundaries? Do you mention what are you looking for? Clearly? Do you become codependent?

 

In addition, the men that would ask you out first, will not guarantee that they are genuinely interested in you as you believe, if you make the same mistakes as the you did with the guys you asked out.

 

Which is why she is trying to change her behaviour pattern...

 

Something I consider to be sensible and admirable.

 

Verhrzn is taking one heck of a battering here, from several males on several subjects, for doing nothing other than trying to have some respect for herself...

[boilingpoint]

Boiling point you are going to struggle a lot if you think that a "hideous" girl is not worth the time or bother. I knew a girl at college who guys just used to walk by and ignore all the time.

 

I know what you mean, but look, we're talking about dating here. Looks count I'm afraid - for both men and women.

 

Happy to be friends with a girl who I don't want to date though.

 

Looks fade or can be wiped out in a second. Heaven forbid you ever have an accident that turns you "hideous"...

 

That's life. When you lose your looks, it's definitely a setback to your dating that's for sure.

 

Far from the women here wanting men to ask them being shallow I think your comments are getting worse as this conversation goes on and that is really unattractive.

 

I don't really need to varnish my opinion here. It's an anonymous forum. It was a bit harsh though I admit.

 

Which is why she is trying to change her behaviour pattern...

 

Something I consider to be sensible and admirable.

 

Verhrzn is taking one heck of a battering here, from several males on several subjects, for doing nothing other than trying to have some respect for herself...

 

She's not considering the arguments presented to her. The fact is she says asking a guy out is a waste of time... not true. If a really good looking girl came up to me and asked me out I'd probably say yes so it wouldn't be a waste of time for her. If a less good-looking girl came up to me and asked me out I *might* say yes to get to know her but she'd have to have really good personality for me to consider it a long term thing. Ultimately the personality will be the deciding factor in both examples.

 

IF she's not a highly confident personality then she should probably hang back first, flirt and build attraction, rather than just going for the bold approach. I don't see it being any different for guys here.

 

Clearly for a successful romance between normal people with normal levels of confidence, there has to be a subtle dynamic between the two parties before someone casually proposes the idea of hanging out/dating/whatever. If it is more the girl's personality to be direct then she should be, if it's more guy's personality to be direct the he should be.

 

So, I can't see why a girl who likes a guy and sees that a guy likes her, can't be direct with him herself if she chooses to be as long as it matches her personality to be that way in the first place i.e. she's just being herself and forgetting the 'rules' that a guy MUST do the asking.

 

It's all about building trust and building honesty about feelings until someone takes a chance, which can be pretty daunting for both involved.

Edited October 9, 2014 by boilingpoint

[Toodaloo]

It's an anonymous forum. It was a bit harsh though I admit.

 

She's not considering the arguments presented to her. The fact is she says asking a guy out is a waste of time. Any guy here will know that it simply isn't true to say that.

 

Clearly for a successful romance, there has to be a subtle dynamic between the two parties before someone casually proposes the idea of hanging out/dating/whatever. If it is more the girl's personality to be direct then she should be, if it's more guy's personality to be direct the he should be.

 

That is the whole point though.

 

This may be anonymous but that is a person who has taken the time and effort to let you know why she doesn't ask guys out when you wanted an answer! A real live living breathing human being!

 

How would you like it if after you admitted you were not all that attractive and you make a real effort to be so if someone came along and basically said tough because you are not pretty enough... That is what much of your posting has been saying... That is really mean. More so as she is probably far prettier than she thinks she is. Because lets face it most of us are (unless we are complete narcissists). This poor girl has been honest and you have battered her for it.

 

Clearly it is not in her nature to be so direct and forward so why should she change that... even more so when the respondent tell her she must change is also telling her that she must be ugly, dull and generally unattractive???

 

She has put forward her viewpoints and thoughts, she has been brave and strong to keep coming back despite the battering she is continually getting and I am not getting the snide and rude remarks that she is despite the fact that my view point is VERY similar and I am agreeing with most of what she is saying! She is considering what you are saying and trying to let you know how she feels about that and what her experience has been...

 

Personally I get the feeling from this anonymous site that the person typing under her name is far less angry with the world, far more accepting than you are giving her credit for. At no point has she made things personal towards you or anyone else who has chosen to get angry towards her... That shows both balls and class...

 

My brother used to look like Tom Cruise before his accident. no I am not joking he was stunning. To those of us who love him, including those who have met him after, he is still stunning because he is a really genuine guy. He is now as ugly as sin! His girlfriend on the other hand is a stunner. So I am afraid looks really do not have much to do with it when it comes to a long lasting sustainable relationship...

[Keenly]

That is the whole point though.

 

This may be anonymous but that is a person who has taken the time and effort to let you know why she doesn't ask guys out when you wanted an answer! A real live living breathing human being!

 

How would you like it if after you admitted you were not all that attractive and you make a real effort to be so if someone came along and basically said tough because you are not pretty enough... That is what much of your posting has been saying... That is really mean. More so as she is probably far prettier than she thinks she is. Because lets face it most of us are (unless we are complete narcissists). This poor girl has been honest and you have battered her for it.

 

Clearly it is not in her nature to be so direct and forward so why should she change that... even more so when the respondent tell her she must change is also telling her that she must be ugly, dull and generally unattractive???

 

She has put forward her viewpoints and thoughts, she has been brave and strong to keep coming back despite the battering she is continually getting and I am not getting the snide and rude remarks that she is despite the fact that my view point is VERY similar and I am agreeing with most of what she is saying! She is considering what you are saying and trying to let you know how she feels about that and what her experience has been...

 

Personally I get the feeling from this anonymous site that the person typing under her name is far less angry with the world, far more accepting than you are giving her credit for. At no point has she made things personal towards you or anyone else who has chosen to get angry towards her... That shows both balls and class...

 

My brother used to look like Tom Cruise before his accident. no I am not joking he was stunning. To those of us who love him, including those who have met him after, he is still stunning because he is a really genuine guy. He is now as ugly as sin! His girlfriend on the other hand is a stunner. So I am afraid looks really do not have much to do with it when it comes to a long lasting sustainable relationship...

 

 

This is why we keep arguing with you. you keep saying things that are false. Men don't date women they aren't attracted to.

[boilingpoint]

That is the whole point though.

 

This may be anonymous but that is a person who has taken the time and effort to let you know why she doesn't ask guys out when you wanted an answer! A real live living breathing human being!

 

How would you like it if after you admitted you were not all that attractive and you make a real effort to be so if someone came along and basically said tough because you are not pretty enough... That is what much of your posting has been saying... That is really mean. More so as she is probably far prettier than she thinks she is. Because lets face it most of us are (unless we are complete narcissists). This poor girl has been honest and you have battered her for it.

 

I was actually talking in general about looks and even if it sounds shallow it is a fact of life - I wasn't making a comment about what she looked like at all.

 

Anyway guys have been accepting dates with her - I don't see how she could do that very often if she was unattractive.

 

Guys say no as well - I say no to girls who I don't find attractive physically or personality-wise.

 

Clearly it is not in her nature to be so direct and forward so why should she change that... even more so when the respondent tell her she must change is also telling her that she must be ugly, dull and generally unattractive???

 

Again I wasn't saying that. Stop attacking. I was talking in general - you really need to read the posts more carefully and consider the points I'm making before posting your counter arguments.

[Toodaloo]

I was actually talking in general about looks and even if it sounds shallow it is a fact of life - I wasn't making a comment about what she looked like at all.

 

Anyway guys have been accepting dates with her - I don't see how she could do that very often if she was unattractive.

 

Guys say no as well - I say no to girls who I don't find attractive physically or personality-wise.

 

 

Well consider this. Both of us have asked men out only to be stood up or used for sex. Ergo these men were not "dating" either of us. They used us.

 

Men don't date women that they are not attracted to but they may well use them for sex...

 

In general men will ask a woman out if he is attracted to her. So both of us prefer to be asked out by men who are attracted to us rather than asking men who may use the opportunity to use us... Its called self respect.

 

I am not attacking just pointing out that what you are saying is not in any way going to change her mind or increase her confidence to start asking chaps out. I think you both should be apologising to this lass for many of your comments. She is a human being even if you don't know her name.

[boilingpoint]

Well consider this. Both of us have asked men out only to be stood up or used for sex. Ergo these men were not "dating" either of us. They used us.

 

Men don't date women that they are not attracted to but they may well use them for sex...

 

In general men will ask a woman out if he is attracted to her. So both of us prefer to be asked out by men who are attracted to us rather than asking men who may use the opportunity to use us... Its called self respect.

 

I am not attacking just pointing out that what you are saying is not in any way going to change her mind or increase her confidence to start asking chaps out. I think you both should be apologising to this lass for many of your comments. She is a human being even if you don't know her name.

 

Oh COME ON!!! Why is it so hard to get through to you? We are talking in general about men and women for this topic! Not about you specifically! You can do what you like!

 

It sounds like you need to open your mind a bit more. Yes guys may use you for sex - it happens. Nice to get some sex though right! At least it's on the table!

 

Did you know a girl can also use a guy for sex? It's more rare and short term but it DOES happen that girls categorise you as FWB and then reject you if you ask them out on a proper date. It's happened to me.

 

Guys have feelings too - who would have thought.

 

Therefore it's all relative! OK??? There are no rules! Put down those Cosmo magazines and WAKE UP!

Edited October 9, 2014 by boilingpoint

[Toodaloo]

Oh COME ON!!! Why is it so hard to get through to you? We are talking in general about men and women for this topic! Not about you specifically! You can do what you like!

 

It sounds like you need to open your mind a bit more. Yes guys may use you for sex - it happens. Nice to get some sex though right! At least it's on the table!

 

Did you know a girl can also use a guy for sex? It's more rare and short term but it DOES happen that girls categorise you as FWB and then reject you if you ask them out on a date later on. It's happened to me.

 

Therefore it's all relative! OK??? There are no rules! Put down those Cosmo magazines and WAKE UP!

 

And we have both shared our personal opinions and experiences with you and then been berated for it, Verhrzn in particular.

 

if you can't be bothered to find out why some women are uncomfortable asking you out and therefore will not do so more fool you. Your missing out - you could use this information to your advantage.

 

No - its not great to just "get shagged". Its bloody awful in fact. There is no enjoyment, no gratification and you end up feeling like a piece of meat after... Oh sorry is that supposed to feel "good"??? I don't think so. Hate to say it but I would rather read a book, it doesn't even need to be a good one.

 

How can trying something and deciding it is not for me then be narrow minded???

 

Finally, unless the "Farmers Weekly" and "Horse and Hound" count I have never read "Cosmo" in my life. It doesn't sound like one of the supplements in the Times or the Telegraph either. Some women do read about more than dresses and nail varnish.

[Frank2thepoint]

Which is why she is trying to change her behaviour pattern...

 

Something I consider to be sensible and admirable.

 

Verhrzn is taking one heck of a battering here, from several males on several subjects, for doing nothing other than trying to have some respect for herself...

 

Verhrzn wanting to change her behavior pattern has nothing to do with having men ask her out first. Who asks out who first, has no impact on the outcome of a date. It is the person's established boundaries, self-respect, patience, and understanding that will determine that success.