Insight for the OW from a BS

[Got it]

All A's are different, yet most end the same. 3 of 10 BW file for divorce, 1 in 20 WH leave the M to be with OW. So while I think we can all agree every affair is different, stats show we should be able to agree on how most will end. That is with the H firmly back in the M and the OW left out.

 

Don't want to believe stats simple keep note of how many HERE ends up with MM. From what I've seen here the stats hold true.

 

I have asked this before, care to cite your stats?

[cocorico]

Being the OW really leaves you on the outside of what is really going on in the married person's life and home. It's a huge leap of misguided faith to assume you are not being lied to repeatedly and often as being the OW. It's also very hard to check up on them when you are not allowed into their base of operations.

 

Again, while this may be true in many cases, it is not universally true. There have been several OW on these boards - including myself - who were included in their MM's lives to a greater or lesser degree. In my case, it was a far greater degree than the xBW was. We socialised openly as a couple with his friends, his colleagues, his family. She was excluded from all that. So it would have been a great deal easier for me to "check up on him" (had I felt the need to do so) than for her - she did not know his friends, had no relationship with his colleagues or family, and did not know his passwords or where he spent time online.

 

My own view is that you should believe nothing you cannot verify independently yourself. I trust no one until they have proven themselves to be trustworthy to me. So, my assumption from the outset was not to believe everything he said, and yet in all these years of knowing him, during the A and since being M, not once has anything he has ever said to me turned out to have been untrue (aside from his initial claim of being happily M - though I do think he really believed that at the time, so deeply in denial was he).

 

If you are going to have a R of any kind with anyone, you have to decide how far you're willing to trust them, and what risks you are willing to take if you were to discover that they were deceiving you. If you feel the risks are too high, you should not get involved, and if you feel he R is worth the risk, then you are going in with your eyes open. That applies to all Rs, not just As.

[cocorico]

All A's are different, yet most end the same. 3 of 10 BW file for divorce, 1 in 20 WH leave the M to be with OW. So while I think we can all agree every affair is different, stats show we should be able to agree on how most will end. That is with the H firmly back in the M and the OW left out.

 

Don't want to believe stats simple keep note of how many HERE ends up with MM. From what I've seen here the stats hold true.

 

I don't think the stats show that (bolded) at all. They simply show the WS still not D, ie M by default. "Firmly back" would suggest a properly reconciled M, with no further As (or other such issues), and the stats simply don't support that.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

I don't think the stats show that (bolded) at all. They simply show the WS still not D, ie M by default. "Firmly back" would suggest a properly reconciled M, with no further As (or other such issues), and the stats simply don't support that.

 

 

Does it really whether the WS is "firmly back" in the marriage or simply "still married" though? At the end of the day, even if only taken at face value the fact still remains, the majority of WS stay married or rather, do not choose to be with the AP. At the end of the day, isn't that the main concern of all involved?? Because from what I know, few women get involved with MM in the long-term hoping/thinking they'll eventually be cast aside for the BS - no matter what the state of the marriage may be.

 

I'm really unsure why some people seem to be taking offense to the tone and/or purpose of this thread. OP was neither hostile nor bitter IMO and simply stated a lot of facts that anyone with two eyes can see. I do not feel as if the purpose of the post was to shame/bash/belittle OW nor make them feel bad about themselves. OP didn't even really make any sweeping generalizations. All I saw was some very simple truths being presented.

 

I think the somewhat hostile reactions from some (f?)OW here are exactly why this thread was needed to begin with. Just as BS can supposedly take comfort in the notion that WS were lying to both them and the APs, APs can likewise take comfort in the idea that the BS was the only one being lied to.

 

The idea that MM is somehow more faithful/honest with the AP, because they are the AP or some such nonsense is frankly bogus. Just like the idea that within an affair MM pick and choose which party to lie to and which one to be truthful with - as if there can only be one betrayed party - and never stray from it is equally absurd. This is not to bash APs in anyway however, but simply to point out - once again - that BSs and APs alike can engaged in wishful thinking and are just as likely to be played for fools.

 

I'm fairly certain the real lesson to be learned here is no matter which side of an affair you're on, the likelihood you're being lied to increases exponentially if you'reanyone but MM - orchestrator of the whole ordeal to begin with.

[kjohn]

And just like a marriage, it's up to each individual partner to decide whether or not they trust what their partner is telling them.

 

How can you trust anything that is being told to you by somebody who is cheating?

 

Isn't the fact that this person is cheating enough to make you decide they are not trust worthy? Why does it matter the reasons for their cheating, that's what I don't understand.

 

I am also a BS. I divorced my cheating ex the minute I found out about his affair.

 

The lies that he told his OW about the state of our marriage all came out during our divorce. None of what he told her was true. He told her what she needed to hear to feel better about crawling into bed with a married man. Period.

 

He lied to me. He lied to her and he lied to himself.

 

Now, don't get me wrong….I know my ex was unhappy in our marriage. We grew apart and wanted different things out of life in the end. We used to have a lot in common. That's why we got married in the first place. We had real true love in the beginning and the middle.

 

At the end, he had a lot more in common with her than he had with me.

 

He married her and, from what I can tell, they are happy, but I do find myself wondering, from time to time, how in the world she can be with somebody who she knows cheated on his wife.

 

Doesn't she worry that he could do the same to her?

 

I don't care what he told her about our marriage and I don't care whether any of it was true or not….the FACT is that he was married and she knew it. Isn't that enough of a lie? Why do people feel that they can justify the cheating if the story that goes along with it seems reasonable enough?

 

if you are the OM/OW and you decide that you trust your married partner and you decide that you believe the story he/she is telling you, my advice to you is don't!

 

The story doesn't matter.

 

You only have to ask yourself one question….is my partner married? If the answer is yes, don't walk….run away.

 

There can be no trust with a affair. The affair itself is pure deceit. If somebody can have an affair, they cannot be trusted.

 

The honorable thing to do if a married person is unhappy in their relationship and has decided that they can't or do not want to save the relationship is to end the marriage first and then move on.

 

There is no excuse for cheating. It doesn't happen by accident.

[Mascara]

I'm not critical of the dynamics of individual circumstances. I'm critical of the character of any cheating MM. I have no idea why a woman would want to be with a man who has proved himself capable of cheating. It's a huge leap of faith.

 

If I was on a date with a man who said that his last relationship ended because he cheated, you wouldn't see me for dust.

 

Just because the person he cheated with was you still makes him - in my opinion - a man of low character.

 

Again, this isn't critical of the OW, but of the MM.

[ascendotum]

I'm not critical of the dynamics of individual circumstances. I'm critical of the character of any cheating MM. I have no idea why a woman would want to be with a man who has proved himself capable of cheating. It's a huge leap of faith.

 

If I was on a date with a man who said that his last relationship ended because he cheated, you wouldn't see me for dust.

 

Just because the person he cheated with was you still makes him - in my opinion - a man of low character.

 

I'm sure lots of people will be dating others who have cheated but are ignorant of it. If they can pull off the cheating deception with their loved one, they wont have to much compunction to lie to the person (virtual stranger) sitting across from them on a date. In fact I'm sure some wont think they are lying at all when they just brush how their broke up their last relationship by cheating by saying it was due to irreconcilable differences or we just grew apart and didn't love each other anymore (half truth). In fact I've known of a few that actually blamed their partner as the one who cheated when i reality it was them (they also keep yappy alienated friends away from the new prospect). I think younger people might be more fine with admitting they ****ed up and have learned their lesson, but older divorcees I reckon less likely (unless they can add in extenuating circumstances like no sex for yrs to justify it)

[Mascara]

I wouldn't be aware of it though. I would not consciously be with someone who cheated, but OW who end up with their MM are.

 

I just find it odd.

[the_artist_1970]

I honestly believe it makes some BS feel better to believe that their WS was betraying the OW/OM just as much as they were betraying them. Maybe feel better isn't the exact phrase I'm looking for, but something to that affect. Knock them down to size or whatever you'd like to say.

This confuses me to no end. As an xBS I didn't care whether my DH had one ow or several ow. I don't want to share my spouse with ANY ow period. It is thought processes like this from the OW that just throws me for a loop. In the OW's mind it's OK if he is sleeping with only her and his W, but the BS wants to vomit to even think about the fact that she is sleeping with her DH and he is sleeping with anyone else. Sharing a man is just NASTY!!!

 

No BS wants to knock anyone down to size. We just want our husbands to ourselves. This is not a competition. Most wives could care less about competing with another woman. Most wives will throw their cheating husbands out on their arses and let the OW have him if they continue to cheat with the OW. I think a lot (not all) OW have a competitive nature and that is what allows them to become a third party in a marriage, whereas the wife doesn't know she is competing with any other woman and has no desire to do so.

[Got it]

I wouldn't be aware of it though. I would not consciously be with someone who cheated, but OW who end up with their MM are.

 

I just find it odd.

 

Do you find it odd, then, when people reconcile? What is the difference? This is someone that has not just lied in general but lied directly and specifically to "you".

[Mascara]

Personally, yes. I wouldn't personally stay.

 

But I understand that a little more, because of what is very often a long shared history. I know people who have been a BS, and they have balanced their own instinct to walk away with that of the interests of the children/family/other ties. The desire to reconcile was rarely based on just "I still love him", although that's a part of it.

 

But the single OW.... find a much better man. Most of the OWs on this board are interesting, intelligent, warm people who have no ties to him and can do SO much better.

[Got it]

Personally, yes. I wouldn't personally stay.

 

But I understand that a little more, because of what is very often a long shared history. I know people who have been a BS, and they have balanced their own instinct to walk away with that of the interests of the children/family/other ties. The desire to reconcile was rarely based on just "I still love him", although that's a part of it.

 

But the single OW.... find a much better man. Most of the OWs on this board are interesting, intelligent, warm people who have no ties to him and can do SO much better.

 

Maybe for the OW it isn't that simple as assumed? Just like for the BS, for many a OP, there is a shared history, there are things attaching them.

 

And if it that easy for the OP to find someone else, can't that same line of logic be used for the BS? People can just easily go find someone else better?

[Mascara]

The single OW doesn't usually have any more ties with the MM than the relationship. Even if it's gone on for years, they don't share a life. The "shared history" is just time - it's not social or economic ties, not families and lives.

 

I'm sure there are exceptions, I seem to recall OW who have children or a business with the MM. Those are exceptions, but for the most part - nope, don't get it.

[ComingInHot]

Maybe for the OW it isn't that simple as assumed? Just like for the BS, for many a OP, there is a shared history, there are things attaching them.

 

And if it that easy for the OP to find someone else, can't that same line of logic be used for the BS? People can just easily go find someone else better?

 

I think this is where the path divides (for me at least). When I read this I am thinking, "But we're MARRIED!!" That whole to honor, cherish, better/worse rich/poor til death type of vow... and I want to finish this sentence with, "ya know"?!?

Thing is, I think that people who cheat and/or choose to partake/indulge in an A actually either DON'T get it at all or don't care to honor the marriage anymore etc...

How can I argue or rather debate or discuss when the two different belief systems, ethics, morals what have you are as far as the East is from the West?

All I can do is try to understand and post my thoughts as they pertain to the post.

So here, I guess I understand the back and forth stuff between the ladies on opposite fences. At the end, cheating is cheating with who does no matter. After the cheating it's my belief the married couple have some decisions to make while the AP or multiple Ap's (depending) waits it out & hopes for the ending in her favor, whatever that is.

Kind of sucks for everyone except the man with the golden yahoo whom both ladies (in this thread) seem to want...

[MissBee]

Maybe for the OW it isn't that simple as assumed? Just like for the BS, for many a OP, there is a shared history, there are things attaching them.

 

And if it that easy for the OP to find someone else, can't that same line of logic be used for the BS? People can just easily go find someone else better?

.

Most affairs are not coeval with the marriage in that the first day of the marriage was also the first day of the affair or the first day the WS starts dating their BS when they were single was also when they met the OW. One generally comes before the other, is longer than the other, and outside of history, the real life ways in which spouses lives are tied up are often not at all the same way in which single non-cohabiting couples lives are tied and APs seeing each other. This seems like a no-brainer to me. Whatever history is built in an A is built while knowing the person is married...you don't wake up one day in an affair...but choose to start it and stay....so whatever history is built was still a history you chose to invest in while knowing the person was married and were under NO obligation to ever do so. When you're already married and someone is cheating you really had no choice in that matter and the history was already made and ongoing before the point of the affair, you do wake up as a BS, in the sense that it's not a thing you choose, but it's the result of your spouse cheating, while an OW, OTOH, doesn't wake up as such, unless lied to, but chooses this.

 

Anyone can go find someone else in any relationship. But a woman or man with children, houses, dogs, in-laws, whatever with someone else and decades, be they married or not, has a lot more at stake and a lot more reasons to stick around than someone who doesn't have that. Most A histories are an emotional one but not one where your livelihood, your kids well-being, your home or any other thing is tied to the person and most marriages have a longer history than an affair. Rare is it the histories of the A and marriage are coeval where you have been with your AP and spouse for the same length of time, most As are shorter than the marriage relationship. Most OW will have a broken heart from leaving their MM not a broken home or have to explain anything to their kids or friends or move or anything of the sort, this is a function of just most non-married relationships anyway, if you don't live with your boyfriend or have children with him or property your split will hurt emotionally more than anything else.In any event there have been several threads where even OW themselves defend that MM loves them but won't leave because of kids, dogs and whatever...so obviously there is some reality and real life weight to these kinds of things besides just an emotional history and it seems most can forego the emotional history with their AP in favor of both the emotional history and material realities of their M.

Edited September 25, 2014 by MissBee

[cocorico]

Does it really whether the WS is "firmly back" in the marriage or simply "still married" though? At the end of the day, even if only taken at face value the fact still remains, the majority of WS stay married or rather, do not choose to be with the AP. At the end of the day, isn't that the main concern of all involved??

 

 

For *all* involved? I'd imagine not! I'd imagine that, for the BS, there'd be a world of difference between a WS who chooses to stay and reconcile the M, and the WS who stays but doesn't invest in the M... And possibly goes on to resume the A or start another A in the future. Certainly that's what I've seen on some of the threads on these boards.

[cocorico]

I wouldn't be aware of it though. I would not consciously be with someone who cheated, but OW who end up with their MM are.

 

I just find it odd.

 

Speaking for myself, I'd rather know about risks, and be able to plan around them and make informed choices, than to assume there are no risks and get whacked in the face by my naïveté when it all blows up.

[Mascara]

Speaking for myself, I'd rather know about risks, and be able to plan around them and make informed choices, than to assume there are no risks and get whacked in the face by my naïveté when it all blows up.

 

Huh? Why is preferring to be with someone who, as far as you know, hasn't cheated equal to "assuming there are no risks"?

[Arieswoman]

Someone asked about statistics.

 

Here are some for UK divorces.

 

There's a lot of info for those that care to look but briefly ;-

 

1. The average age for a married person to get divorced is 40/44

2. The average length of a marriage before divorce is 11.5 years

3. 20% of those couples who divorced previously had a marriage end in divorce

4. 66% of the petitions were granted to the wife and of these 54% of them had the husbands behaviour proven.

 

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-328994

[Got it]

I think this is where the path divides (for me at least). When I read this I am thinking, "But we're MARRIED!!" That whole to honor, cherish, better/worse rich/poor til death type of vow... and I want to finish this sentence with, "ya know"?!?

Thing is, I think that people who cheat and/or choose to partake/indulge in an A actually either DON'T get it at all or don't care to honor the marriage anymore etc...

How can I argue or rather debate or discuss when the two different belief systems, ethics, morals what have you are as far as the East is from the West?

All I can do is try to understand and post my thoughts as they pertain to the post.

So here, I guess I understand the back and forth stuff between the ladies on opposite fences. At the end, cheating is cheating with who does no matter. After the cheating it's my belief the married couple have some decisions to make while the AP or multiple Ap's (depending) waits it out & hopes for the ending in her favor, whatever that is.

Kind of sucks for everyone except the man with the golden yahoo whom both ladies (in this thread) seem to want...

 

COH - I don't disagree that there aren't more attachments normally with the BS than the OP. What I was walking down was the line of logic that there aren't any attachments and the OP should just flippantly go find someone "better". (Which is a whole other argument that gets opened up as if this is about finding someone "better" doesn't be default one assume that if anyone has the right/privilege to better it should be the BS just by f*** up proxy of the sh*t show they found they had front row seats for?)

 

I disagree that the OP is left waiting, or only left waiting. The OP has more power than that and can make decisions as can all three people in the triangle. No one party in the triangle force (in most legal senses) can make another party do something they don't want to. So each party has control only of themselves.

 

Both ladies do not need to wait if they don't want to. They can make independent decisions that voids the decisions of any other party.

[Got it]

.

Most affairs are not coeval with the marriage in that the first day of the marriage was also the first day of the affair or the first day the WS starts dating their BS when they were single was also when they met the OW. One generally comes before the other, is longer than the other, and outside of history, the real life ways in which spouses lives are tied up are often not at all the same way in which single non-cohabiting couples lives are tied and APs seeing each other. This seems like a no-brainer to me. Whatever history is built in an A is built while knowing the person is married...you don't wake up one day in an affair...but choose to start it and stay....so whatever history is built was still a history you chose to invest in while knowing the person was married and were under NO obligation to ever do so. When you're already married and someone is cheating you really had no choice in that matter and the history was already made and ongoing before the point of the affair, you do wake up as a BS, in the sense that it's not a thing you choose, but it's the result of your spouse cheating, while an OW, OTOH, doesn't wake up as such, unless lied to, but chooses this.

 

Anyone can go find someone else in any relationship. But a woman or man with children, houses, dogs, in-laws, whatever with someone else and decades, be they married or not, has a lot more at stake and a lot more reasons to stick around than someone who doesn't have that. Most A histories are an emotional one but not one where your livelihood, your kids well-being, your home or any other thing is tied to the person and most marriages have a longer history than an affair. Rare is it the histories of the A and marriage are coeval where you have been with your AP and spouse for the same length of time, most As are shorter than the marriage relationship. Most OW will have a broken heart from leaving their MM not a broken home or have to explain anything to their kids or friends or move or anything of the sort, this is a function of just most non-married relationships anyway, if you don't live with your boyfriend or have children with him or property your split will hurt emotionally more than anything else.In any event there have been several threads where even OW themselves defend that MM loves them but won't leave because of kids, dogs and whatever...so obviously there is some reality and real life weight to these kinds of things besides just an emotional history and it seems most can forego the emotional history with their AP in favor of both the emotional history and material realities of their M.

 

Okay. What does that have to do with what I posted? I didn't say that one wasn't longer, more encompassing, etc. I was saying an affair does not mean there is zero attachment or intermingling.

[the_artist_1970]

I think this is where the path divides (for me at least). When I read this I am thinking, "But we're MARRIED!!" That whole to honor, cherish, better/worse rich/poor til death type of vow... and I want to finish this sentence with, "ya know"?!?

Thing is, I think that people who cheat and/or choose to partake/indulge in an A actually either DON'T get it at all or don't care to honor the marriage anymore etc...

How can I argue or rather debate or discuss when the two different belief systems, ethics, morals what have you are as far as the East is from the West?

All I can do is try to understand and post my thoughts as they pertain to the post.

So here, I guess I understand the back and forth stuff between the ladies on opposite fences. At the end, cheating is cheating with who does no matter. After the cheating it's my belief the married couple have some decisions to make while the AP or multiple Ap's (depending) waits it out & hopes for the ending in her favor, whatever that is.

Kind of sucks for everyone except the man with the golden yahoo whom both ladies (in this thread) seem to want...

 

I agree CIH with this post 100%. What I have come to realize is that my value in marriage and the vows that ppl make when they get married is not shared by some ppl. I hold a very high regard to my marriage and other people's marriages. It is the reason that I have never cheated on my DH and I would never, ever mess around with a MM. It is just something that I know I would never do because of my beliefs in the marriage covenant.

 

Also, when my DH had his A and I was debating on whether to stay with him, my mother in law, sister in laws and brother in laws begged me to stay with my DH (he had confessed to his entire family). I have a very close relationship with my in laws. I was so hurt, that I had decided to divorce him. Our children were teenagers and I had no reason to stay with a man who couldn't be honest and faithful. But my husband did everything to prove to me that I could be safe if I remained married to him. My husband and I (like most married people) are a team with shared history of standing together through family issues/drama and a whole lot more than someone who is hidden in the shadows and has never met the mother/sister/brother of the man she loves. Has never sat down and shared stories about their lover's childhood with his immediate family. Or laughed at the "crazy" sister and the latest thing she did. Has never stood in a hospital room holding each other while a parent was on their death bed. We live out loud in front of the world together. Sharing family secrets, joys and sorrows.

 

In our case, we had so much shared history and we had leaned on each other through a lot and for the 18 years (15 married and three dating) that I had known my husband he was a man with honor and integrity. I weighed all of that and decided that this bump in the road pales in comparison to who he is as a person.

Edited September 25, 2014 by the_artist_1970

[MissBee]

Okay. What does that have to do with what I posted? I didn't say that one wasn't longer, more encompassing, etc. I was saying an affair does not mean there is zero attachment or intermingling.

 

No one said there was zero attachment in an affair either . .. Your post asked why couldn't a BS just find someone else then like people tell OW to and I responded saying everyone in any relationship can find someone else; however, the nature and history and kinds of attachment in an affair or ordinary dating vs. marriage are different hence one is easier to leave than another. If you don't see that as a reasonable response... Mmkay!

Edited September 25, 2014 by MissBee

[No Limit]

I'm not sorry for your circumstances OP; I'm glad you kicked that guy out.

 

 

As for OWs, well, there are some I'd really love to shoot to the sun - those who purposely look for married people to crush families because of their issues. Majority of them however is either also deceived and used or simply living in their own world, so all I do is just shake my head and hope they wake up before a good portion of their lifetime is wasted. Longest I read about was a woman who wasted 13 years and despite all frustrations still clung onto her MM; I bet she'll wait until the wife takes her last breath, if she hasn't been replaced by OW #2 by then. Or OW #3...

[ascendotum]

COH - I don't disagree that there aren't more attachments normally with the BS than the OP. What I was walking down was the line of logic that there aren't any attachments and the OP should just flippantly go find someone "better". (Which is a whole other argument that gets opened up as if this is about finding someone "better" doesn't be default one assume that if anyone has the right/privilege to better it should be the BS just by f*** up proxy of the sh*t show they found they had front row seats for?)

 

I disagree that the OP is left waiting, or only left waiting. The OP has more power than that and can make decisions as can all three people in the triangle. No one party in the triangle force (in most legal senses) can make another party do something they don't want to. So each party has control only of themselves.

 

Both ladies do not need to wait if they don't want to. They can make independent decisions that voids the decisions of any other party.

 

I agree with MissBee that the OW has a lot more power in the relationship triangle to be able to walk away unencumbered and find someone better. For the BS someone better is a lot more then just finding another man who wont cheat....and even with that minimal requirement of 'better' its a big unknown.

 

There was a period there over about 5 yrs were I met 9 women I think it was who I liked who were single but not emotionally available, and it was because I'd find out they were OW (supposedly according to other people), mostly with MM (as opposed to guys with just a gf), mostly with alpha type senior managers. These women were all slim, half with uni degrees, in their late 20s-early 30s and all would have had no problem meeting guys interested in them. There was just a shortage of 6'2+, handsome, macho, big paycheck guys floating around single in their 30s. Of the 9, one managed to snag the guy that I knew about. On the other side of the affair is the wife. Quite possibly a bit chunky after having a few kids and getting comfy living in a long term marriage, and being older than the OW, and also not having a self supporting career like the OW. Should the affair come to light and the marriage go up in flames she will also become a bitter single mom. Guess which one out of these OW and BS is going to fair better on the singles market, especially if the BS wanted to capture the same sort of guy & lifestyle she enjoyed when married.