At a standstill...

[Mirages]

You really think I should take it that far, in terms of a voice recorder and faking me leaving? Also, how do I find out if she's cheating on me?

 

Definately consider it, walmart has the tapeless ones that are voice activated, the Sony model at W-mart is most effective, I have three. They have helped a lot, bear in mind I was doing divorce with 2 kids, you are in a lighter position. It is best to keep it from her knowledge, when she threatens to "Have you arrested," for leaving you, using the recording you can distill that, or get her charged with filing a false police report. This is real, simple preparation is cheap compared to the consequences.

 

If you want to set up a "Monk" ploy, that depends on your personality, your friends, etc. You can try it, a strong diversion might just be the ticket to get her to split amicably "We really had different goals, I wish him the best, not sure what got into him...", not much different than you claiming you are suddenly gay, but hey, I would never do that.

 

Cheating: You are not married, but if you want to know, you must refer to both your laws and your interest in keeping your operation legal, can include GPS tracking her car, putting an app on her phone, placing voice recorder in her car etc. Much of this is not legal in most states, I advise against it, but if you wanted to know... I for one would not invest in a thorough check of cheating, it may be rather pointless at your phase. Really avoid breaking surveillance laws, don't give her something to use against you.

[Downtown]

It's so weird that they would feel so dependent on us and then just decide to walk away? just like that?

Yes, they are dependent on us but, remember, it is a love/hate relationship because they cannot tolerate experiencing mixed feelings. They thus alternate between splitting you white (adoring you) and splitting you black (devaluing you).

 

Moreover, as I noted above, the BPDer's fear of abandonment typically grows over the years. One reason is that, as she sees her body aging and the weight accumulating, she becomes more fearful of your losing interest in her. Another reason is that, when you eventually get fed up with all of the arguments and verbal abuse, you will start establishing stronger personal boundaries and enforcing them. That is, you will stop walking on eggshells all the time. This change will scare the daylights out of a BPDer because she will interpret it as a sure sign you are about to leave her.

 

On top of all that, a BPDer usually will grow increasingly resentful each year about your failure to make her happy. Of course, it is an impossible task. Due to her engulfment fear, your efforts to comfort her and be loving will hurt her as much as help her. It is as counter-productive as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. Moreover, trying to satisfy a BPDer's needs is like trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. The result is that, as the years pass, a BPDer's abandonment fear and resentment become so painful that she will preemptively abandon her spouse to prevent him from doing it to her. In that way, she is able to stop the pain.

[preraph]

Is the only time you're drinking this once a week with friends? If not, she may simply think you're drinking too much. Do you change for the worse when you drink? If so, literally anyone is entitled to not want to be around you drunk. Don't you ever ask her to go with you and your friends? I don't mean every time, but once in awhile, so if there's any mystery about your goings-ons, it will dispel that.

[joemax]

Abuse is abuse. Whether its a man or a woman and whether they have a personality disorder and especially since she has been educated about it, she is still held accountable for her actions.

 

If you love her enough to overlook it, and I do not recommend that you do, you both will need to get counseling Period. You will need counseling to be able to keep yourself intact mentally and emotionally as well as to help her manage.

 

The root of this is about abusive and controlling behavior, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Her reply to that would be "just because you don't hit me doesn't mean you don't abuse me, you're extremely emotionally abusive".

 

 

If you want to set up a "Monk" ploy, that depends on your personality, your friends, etc. You can try it, a strong diversion might just be the ticket to get her to split amicably "We really had different goals, I wish him the best, not sure what got into him...", not much different than you claiming you are suddenly gay, but hey, I would never do that.

 

I don't think she is cheating on me, although I have read that it is common for borderlines... And I don't know how much the 'monk' ploy would work, we have a LOT of mutual friends, word would get out that I didn't actually leave. Besides, I have a feeling that she would offer to come with me.

 

Yes, they are dependent on us but, remember, it is a love/hate relationship because they cannot tolerate experiencing mixed feelings. They thus alternate between splitting you white (adoring you) and splitting you black (devaluing you).

 

I have a question for you, not sure if you can answer but here goes: she told me that her therapist has told her that she is 'over' her borderline, and that now she only has depressive episodes once in a while. Is that possible?

 

Is the only time you're drinking this once a week with friends? If not, she may simply think you're drinking too much. Do you change for the worse when you drink? If so, literally anyone is entitled to not want to be around you drunk. Don't you ever ask her to go with you and your friends? I don't mean every time, but once in awhile, so if there's any mystery about your goings-ons, it will dispel that.

 

Yes, once a week. And if I'm with her, I only have a drink or two, I am very aware of her feelings. And yes, she has gone out with my friends and me many times, it's just tricky cause almost all of my friends are single.

[Downtown]

She told me that her therapist has told her that she is 'over' her borderline, and that now she only has depressive episodes once in a while. Is that possible?

No, Joe, not really. At best, BPD is something one learns how to manage, not cure. The reason is that BPD is not a disease. Hence, there is no disease to cure. That is, BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that your GF "has" or "doesn't have."

 

Instead, it is a thought distortion that occurs in all of us whenever we experience intense feelings. It therefore is a set of basic human behaviors that we all exhibit to some degree. This, of course, is why it is called a "spectrum disorder." At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most BPD traits at a strong and persistent level.

 

If her therapist is correct, the answer to that question was "yes" at one time. To reduce the strength of those traits, she would have to undergo weekly IC for several years at the very least. Assuming she did that, and assuming she did not simply play mind games with the therapist, it is possible that she now "is over her borderline" -- as you say -- in the sense that she no longer "has BPD."

 

Keep in mind, however, that the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD" are not intended to serve the interests of a husband or potential spouse. Rather, they are targeted to satisfy the interests of the psychiatric community (who are loath to give anyone a BPD diagnosis), the courts (which are loath to institutionalize BPDers at great cost to the public), and the insurance companies (which are loath to pay for treatment). This is why the diagnostic criteria for BPD are set so high that only 6% of the population meets those criteria.

 

The result is that learning that your GF "no longer has BPD" is not very helpful to you. A person who now satisfies 80% or 90% of the BPD criteria (and thus "doesn't have BPD) may be nearly as impossible to live with as one satisfying 100%. Hence, a diagnosis of "no BPD" does NOT mean the person is safe to marry -- or remain married to.

 

This perverse outcome is the result of the APA capitulating to the insurance industry and courts in 1980 and adopting a dichotomous method for diagnosing all personality disorders. Insurance companies and the courts were insisting on a bright line. Never mind that it is ludicrous to take a "yes or no" approach to diagnosing spectrum disorders.

 

Doing so is the equivalent of declaring everyone under 6'4" to be "short" and everyone under 300 pounds to be "skinny." Not surprisingly, this nonsense -- of "having" or "not having" BPD -- has been an embarrassment to the psychiatric profession for over 30 years. The APA therefore is currently exploring a radical change to its BPD diagnostic procedures, with the goal of eventually replacing this dichotomous approach with a graduated methodology that recognizes everyone exhibits these traits to some degree.

 

This is why I've encouraged you to learn how to spot the warning signs for BPD. Although it won't enable you to diagnose anyone, it will permit you to protect yourself by being able to spot strong occurrences of those traits. Moreover, doing so is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about behavioral traits such as physical abuse, verbal abuse, temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you, and always being "The Victim."

 

And this is why I've encouraged you NOT to rely on your GF's therapist for candid advice. As I noted earlier, it is important -- if you decide your GF is exhibiting strong BPD warning signs -- that you consult with a psychologist who has not seen or treated your GF. That is the only way you can be assured that the psychologist will speak candidly to you (based on what you've observed about her behaviors). Her therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND. He is ethically bound to protect only HER best interests. As I said before, relying on your GF's therapist for candid advice before the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce.

 

Finally, I should note that -- because you never spoke directly with her therapist -- you don't really know whether he ever gave her a BPD diagnosis -- or whether he later declared she "no longer had BPD." Nor do you know if she saw a psychologist or, rather, only a MC who has less training. This is why it is very important -- before you get more serious about this young woman -- you learn how to spot the warning signs and speak with a good psychologist to obtain a professional opinion on what you are dealing with.

[Haydn]

Yes DT. Perfect description and sadly all too true.

 

 

Yes, they are dependent on us but, remember, it is a love/hate relationship because they cannot tolerate experiencing mixed feelings. They thus alternate between splitting you white (adoring you) and splitting you black (devaluing you).

 

Moreover, as I noted above, the BPDer's fear of abandonment typically grows over the years. One reason is that, as she sees her body aging and the weight accumulating, she becomes more fearful of your losing interest in her. Another reason is that, when you eventually get fed up with all of the arguments and verbal abuse, you will start establishing stronger personal boundaries and enforcing them. That is, you will stop walking on eggshells all the time. This change will scare the daylights out of a BPDer because she will interpret it as a sure sign you are about to leave her.

 

On top of all that, a BPDer usually will grow increasingly resentful each year about your failure to make her happy. Of course, it is an impossible task. Due to her engulfment fear, your efforts to comfort her and be loving will hurt her as much as help her. It is as counter-productive as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. Moreover, trying to satisfy a BPDer's needs is like trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. The result is that, as the years pass, a BPDer's abandonment fear and resentment become so painful that she will preemptively abandon her spouse to prevent him from doing it to her. In that way, she is able to stop the pain.

[joemax]

No, Joe, not really. At best, BPD is something one learns how to manage, not cure. The reason is that BPD is not a disease. Hence, there is no disease to cure. That is, BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that your GF "has" or "doesn't have."

 

Yeah, thought so

 

 

 

 

This is why I've encouraged you to learn how to spot the warning signs for BPD. Although it won't enable you to diagnose anyone, it will permit you to protect yourself by being able to spot strong occurrences of those traits. Moreover, doing so is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about behavioral traits such as physical abuse, verbal abuse, temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you, and always being "The Victim."

 

I guess this is what I have to do now: keep reading up on BPD and determine whether or not she exhibits enough of the warning signs, although I'm almost sure that it is too much to be able to live with unfortunately... But just because I don't want to make any rash decisions, I'll keep observing and then talk to a professional. Thank you very much for your help.

[Downtown]

I want to ... determine whether or not she exhibits enough of the warning signs.

As I noted earlier, Joe, you will not be able to diagnose her. That is, you cannot determine whether her BPD traits are so strong and persistent that they meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. You will be able, however, to spot all the warning signs for BPD if you take a little time to read about them.

 

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

 

I guess this is what I have to do now: keep reading up on BPD.

Joe, an easy place to start reading is article #9 at Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with BPD. The other professionally written articles at that website are excellent too. If you want a book -- one which will read like a biography about your GF is she is a BPDer -- I suggest you read Stop Walking on Eggshells. It is the best-selling BPD book targeted to partners like you.

 

While you are at the BPDfamily website, you may want to consider participating (or at least lurking) in the "Staying" and "Leaving" message boards. But don't forget us here at the TAM forum. We have dozens of active members who once were mired in a toxic relationship with a BPDer. We want to keep helping you as long as you find our shared experiences helpful.

[Mirages]

Joe I remind you that "The only think necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." The BPD family site was good with me as well, recommended.

 

How are her friends? One of the cruel effects of mine was her having friends that had similar behaviors. I do have a platoon of angry women in town who believe they have me figured out (ex's friends), yet they can't come to terms with their multiple divorces, failed marriages, etc... One of them recently grabbed her kid and turned away at the grocery, why?? I don't even ask, I do know that lady's abusive husband well. I did deliberately say "Hello." with a smile, not playing hiding games with these idiots infants. Grow thick skin and roll on. I am bigger than them, literally and figuratively, just asking: BPD women often have similar friends, and cycle thru (break up with) the non-emotional friends.

[joemax]

Joe, an easy place to start reading is article #9 at Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with BPD. The other professionally written articles at that website are excellent too. If you want a book -- one which will read like a biography about your GF is she is a BPDer -- I suggest you read Stop Walking on Eggshells. It is the best-selling BPD book targeted to partners like you.

 

While you are at the BPDfamily website, you may want to consider participating (or at least lurking) in the "Staying" and "Leaving" message boards. But don't forget us here at the TAM forum. We have dozens of active members who once were mired in a toxic relationship with a BPDer. We want to keep helping you as long as you find our shared experiences helpful.

 

Thank you Downtown, for all your support and resources that you've provided me with. I'm a little overwhelmed right now, seems like everything is coming down at the same time (and I feel as if she's not helping me whatsoever with anything), but I will read that forum and take in the information.

 

How are her friends? One of the cruel effects of mine was her having friends that had similar behaviors. I do have a platoon of angry women in town who believe they have me figured out (ex's friends), yet they can't come to terms with their multiple divorces, failed marriages, etc... One of them recently grabbed her kid and turned away at the grocery, why?? I don't even ask, I do know that lady's abusive husband well. I did deliberately say "Hello." with a smile, not playing hiding games with these idiots infants. Grow thick skin and roll on. I am bigger than them, literally and figuratively, just asking: BPD women often have similar friends, and cycle thru (break up with) the non-emotional friends.

 

Her friends are okay. I mean, I get along with them, and I think they like me... They always are on her side though, naturally I guess.

 

Just to give you guys some background information. When I met my gf, she had just gotten out of a bad relationship. Her father had just walked out on her mother after cheating on her (they have since reconciled), and she was smoking (cigarettes and pot) regularly. Since we've met, she's stopped smoking, has been eating healthy and working out, and we've discussed marriage multiple times. Anyway, I don't know why I'm telling you guys this or how it's relevant, but I just feel that she's turned her life around for the better since we've met, but maybe she's hit a wall now?

[Downtown]

Since we've met, she's stopped smoking, has been eating healthy and working out, and we've discussed marriage multiple times. ...I just feel that she's turned her life around for the better since we've met, but maybe she's hit a wall now?

Perhaps she has "turned her life around for the better," Joe. I certainly hope so. Yet, if she is a BPDer, it is far more likely that you simply provided her with a new identity -- one which will she will quickly shed as soon as her infatuation wears off. Because BPDers have a very fragile, fragmented sense of who they are, they are attracted to mates having a strong personality that will center them, ground them, and give them a sense of purpose and direction. But, sadly, as soon as you've done exactly that -- i.e., provided the "identity" that she desperately seeks -- the BPDer will start perceiving you as being very controlling and dominating. As we discussed earlier, this misperception of your intentions is a sign that you've started triggering her great fear of engulfment.

 

My BPDer exW, for example, was so infatuated with me -- and so desperate to acquire a self image -- that she initially loved all my friends, all my family, all my hobbies, and nearly all the things I hold dear in life. Of course, this "mirroring" of the Non's likes and preferences is why it is common for both parties to be absolutely convinced they have met their "soul mate." Importantly, the BPDer typically does not do this to deceive or manipulate the Non partner (as a narcissist or sociopath would do). Instead, the BPDer is absolutely convinced that she enjoys all those new activities and friends. This huge change in her behavior is possible because her infatuation holds her two great fears at bay. Then, when that infatuation starts to evaporate, she will start complaining about being controlled and not wanting to do those activities. She also will start finding fault with your friends and family members.

 

This "mirroring" behavior explains how BPDers are able to move so effortlessly among a wide variety of different groups of people. Having only a weak self image, BPDers have spent their lifetimes emulating the people who happen to be in the room. BPDers do this in order to fit in and be loved. Indeed, they have to do it because they have no strong sense of self to guide them. It therefore is common, when the Non and BPDer break up, for the Non to complain that he cannot imagine what caused the BPDer to start living with a guy who has a lifestyle (e.g., drug dependency) or religion that is so far removed from his own.

[Mirages]

Having only a weak self image, BPDers have spent their lifetimes emulating the people who happen to be in the room. BPDers do this in order to fit in and be loved.

 

Yes mine joined two bigoted religious cults, to fit in to an esoteric group. I, being "prohibited" from reading ended up amassing a lot of moderate theological knowledge, and calmly interrogated her leaders, several times over years. This led to crisis with her. Be thankful you had been her identity; it gets really delicate when a cult is it, and you have young children being ordered to submit to some really toxic presentations of God. There are two ways to get prestige in society: become something (career oriented guru), or criticize everything that is not you (cult). I choose the third: be myself, enjoy my identity. For a BPD'r becoming something is difficult, while the strong identities (you) Downtown alluded to are attractive for a while.

 

Social chameleon: Some (mine) would subscribe to multiple extremist friend groups at the same time, fitting in to each. For example the heavy drinking construction crowd, and the fundamentalist church types. The tongue speaking church types, and the ones who say that is of the devil. Then there is insecurity because the different camps of friends might "know" that she hangs with the others.

[preraph]

Well, if you're only drinking at all once a week, she really doesn't have a very good argument. I mean, unless you get mean or something, and its sounds likes she's the one who gets mean. I think she just doesn't want you having friends, and I hear that all the time from women about their men and I always tell them no one has the right to isolate you from your friends or family and you shouldn't give it to them. As long as you're not out picking up women or coming home mean and as long as you give her a call and she knows when to expect you, you should be able to go out with friends, and especially since she sometimes comes with you and knows she could come.

 

The only other thing I can think of is if you are going out with your friends once a week and that's once a week more than you're taking her out, you better give her equal or better time! And if she's able to really hurt you, no one is worth that. Hopefully, you can handle it, but don't let it escalate and get out of hand. Remember if you have kids with her, she MUST not ever hit and abuse you in front of them.

[joemax]

I just spoke to her, tried to bring up the fact that I've been unhappy with all our arguing lately and also unhappy with how much we haven't been intimate, and she basically kept saying "so do something about it, try being positive."

 

I then told her that she can't be happy either with the amount that we've been arguing, and she replied saying that she doesn't constantly doubt my love and cast a negative shadow over our relationship.