At a standstill...

[joemax]

I'll try to make things short. I'm 26, gf is 22. Been together for almost 3 years now. Things were amazing for a long time, but that's not to say that we haven't had hiccups here and there. I messed up and so did she (not cheating or anything like that). We've managed to work through seemingly everything that was meant to break us up and we still find ourselves together, so I really value what we have.

 

With that said, I don't know what to do now. Things are rockier and rockier. Her main complaint is that I spend "too much time with my friends". I see my friends once a week, either friday or saturday nights, and we usually either stay in and have a couple of drinks, or go out for food or to a bar or something.

 

She says that she hates that I'm "26 and still going out drinking". I see her plenty, 4-5 sometimes 6 nights a week. She's almost always at my place 'cause it's close to her school.

 

Another thing, she has previously been diagnosed with Borderline personality disorder. She's gone to therapy for it and finished a program dealing with it. However, sometimes it's like all logic goes out the window and she gets angry at really dumb stuff. It all comes back to the issue with me spending too much time with my friends (or so she says).

 

She has gotten physical before, throwing punches/kicks/objects in anger. But I keep giving it chance after chance because I don't wana throw something away without being sure. I'm at a standstill. I really care about this girl. Thanks for reading.

[LostOnes05]

Yea, you might want to go to your nearest FootLocker and pick up some cross training shoes because you need to run! Remember we do not live in a society where things are equal. She can punch and kick you all she wants but the minute, rather the millisecond, you lose your cool you're going to jail buddy. I thought treatment was supposed to be ongoing for issues dealing with mental illness anyway. Personality disorders are not the same as smoking cessation, there is no one time fix (heck there isn't even a one time fix for that!) Hopefully, she gets the help she needs. Good Luck!

[Mirages]

Please read up on the BPD you mentioned; most are not diagnosed, I had one, terrible. When you detach, prepare for more serious conflict. You are already a victim of isolation, one of their strategies. After a few months of no contact with her you'll have your life back. I am convinced that BPD is one condition that in entirely unsuitable to relationships, and per both medical research, insurance payment policies, and the ones I've know, it is not going to be fixed. This is a re-lamping candle, RUN!

 

Some symptoms include violence, criminal frame ups, crowbarring your family-workplace-friends into believing that you are nuts, making babies without authorization, and suicide.

[mightycpa]

F*** her, she's an old shrew who will keep you in a big vat of misery. Get drunk first, then dump her!

[cif]

Physical violence is one of those things not to be forgiven... Man or woman.

[Mirages]

Physical violence is one of those things not to be forgiven... Man or woman.

 

Lets get even more specific, I account for forgiveness without reconciliation. Forgive, if they are sorry, sure, but still, get out of there.

[Mister Zen]

She is wrong. End of story.

[deathandtaxes]

So what excuse for her are you going to come up with when she guts you with a knife out of anger?

[quidproquo89]

can she get more therapy? Do they prescribe medicine for that sort of thing. As others have said you might want to re-evaluate your relationship with her because you can get hurt

[Mirages]

Do they prescribe medicine for that sort of thing.

 

The issue with BPD, if it is BPD, which it sounds like it is per first post is that there is no successful treatment plan. Insurance policy typically does not even cover but intro therapy, because they know it will be a lifelong pattern of insanity that will not be fixed, health insurances (most of them in the US) do not pay for treatments that consistently fail.

 

It is a biological adaptation of a normal brain, i.e. genetics or stressors physically changed the central brain region, permanently, very sad.

[joemax]

Physical violence is one of those things not to be forgiven... Man or woman.

 

She says that I also abuse her with my words. A lot of times when an argument starts, I try to defuse and when it doesn't work after 20-30 mins, I tell her to just back off and give us time to cool down. If that doesn't work, I obviously get really frustrated and sometimes curse or whatnot. She says that that is the same as physical abuse. In her own words, "just because your anger comes out in a different way doesn't mean it's right".

 

So what excuse for her are you going to come up with when she guts you with a knife out of anger?

 

 

can she get more therapy? Do they prescribe medicine for that sort of thing. As others have said you might want to re-evaluate your relationship with her because you can get hurt

 

She went today to see if she can get a referral for more therapy...

[Downtown]

Joe, I was married to a BPDer for 15 years. I spent a small fortune taking her to weekly sessions with 6 different psychologists (and 3 MCs) throughout that 15-year period -- all to no avail. Granted, a small share of BPDers -- perhaps as much as 1% -- are capable of learning how to manage their emotions if they work hard in therapy for many years. Yet, the vast majority of BPDers do not have the self awareness and ego strength necessary to accomplish that.

 

If you would like to read about my experiences with my exW, take a look at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that discussion rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Joe.

[Mirages]

Just as it is likely that Joe & Downtown are level headed, and experience empathy, the secondary failure in your continued relations with one is as follows:

 

GF will likely pity party the therapist, especially MC's and you will end up with a therapist/MC who will turn on you, and prepare a report for court (I know you are not married, but still). So you will end up with the BPD'r lying, and a "professional" giving a report supporting whatever that lie(s) are. I ended up with two MC's taking a side, that I was paying for, and almost took a loss in court due to their extreme bias (one other MC was not bad). You don't want an MC testifying that your GF is clearly a victim of domestic violence when you've never even hit a cat. Justice is not default anymore.

 

Here is a shocker I dealt with: BPD wife tries to get a man she likes arrested, thru an elaborate scheme using a police department not even local to them. That failed because I directly stopped it; he knew me, but I never told him I saved his bacon from jail, I just did it. Two weeks later she was buttering him up for an affair. Joe, there is no benefit, you have a life ahead of you, claim it! Final bits: prevent pregnancy now, and delete, secure, etc your online life, banking, email history, ebay buying history, you know the list; even decent aspects of your life may be used to embarrass/manipulate you, lock it all up.

[Gloria25]

I don't know, I believe that while we go through some stuff, we have "some" control over it...

 

And, I also think some people lean on their "illness" cuz it allows them to get sympathy and/or for them to have an excuse for bad behavior.

 

If she will not seek treatment, then not sure if you want to stand by and become her punching bag.

[joemax]

Joe, I was married to a BPDer for 15 years. I spent a small fortune taking her to weekly sessions with 6 different psychologists (and 3 MCs) throughout that 15-year period -- all to no avail. Granted, a small share of BPDers -- perhaps as much as 1% -- are capable of learning how to manage their emotions if they work hard in therapy for many years. Yet, the vast majority of BPDers do not have the self awareness and ego strength necessary to accomplish that.

 

If you would like to read about my experiences with my exW, take a look at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that discussion rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Joe.

 

I looked over that thread Downtown, and some of it does ring a bell. She does get angry with really small matters, and a lot of times when we're arguing she brings up a number of different topics, to the point where I don't know what we're arguing about anymore.

 

When things are good, they're great. She can be the most caring, sweet girl; but then it's like a switch flips and that's it.

 

The reason I'm still with her though, is because I keep thinking to myself: "What if she's right? What if I am not a good boyfriend?". And that makes me stay. I want to be there for her, but my patience is running out. She told me two days ago that she will look to continue treatment, but will that help? Judging from your story, it's not looking very promising...

 

Edit: Also, would you happen to know if I can talk to her therapist so I can get it straight from him/her about how bad her borderline actually is? Is that possible? Thank you.

[Mirages]

Your therapist is subject to Hippa law, your GF would have to allow it, or receive a report herself. Therapists are not wizards, some are OK, some are either clueless, have a personal experience that biases them, or highly opinionated. If I asked my doctor if I had cancer, I'd trust the answer, asking a therapist if the relationship has hope, that's less accurate than a polygraph.

 

Think thru your motivators.

 

Is this your first GF? Mine was, I got sucked in.

 

Do you feel confident being single for a period of time? You should be able to do so, it is healthy.

 

Do you feel that she would suffer greatly if you left her? Hmm, no kids, and plenty of youth, you need not worry, logically she will suffer greatly if you stay in a miserable relationship. If your feelings and safety dont count (your first post), then she does not either.

 

Do you have odd/embarrassing stuff that you feel she will exploit? Either way, never declare enduring love due to fear, love and fear or different, no confusion.

 

Can you see women at the town square, etc, and feel that at least 10% of them could be a decent spouse/gf, or is yours the only one you fancy? You should regard others as being potentially attractive at this phase.

 

Do you have perents, etc. telling you what to feel?

 

I haven't picked up on it, are you two living together?

 

Some of these questions may help you put things in perspective.

 

 

What if I am not a good boyfriend?"

Causing you to feel inadequate is either strategic or a side effect of the relationship, I asked the same at times, we all do. Perhaps your introspection and your seeking help online are evidence that you are not bad. Edited September 25, 2014 by Mirages

[joemax]

Is this your first GF? Mine was, I got sucked in.

No, I've had 3-4 girlfriends before. She is, however, the second long term one.

 

Do you feel confident being single for a period of time? You should be able to do so, it is healthy.

 

Absolutely. I was single for 3 years before and enjoyed it, sure I can do it again.

 

Do you feel that she would suffer greatly if you left her? Hmm, no kids, and plenty of youth, you need not worry, logically she will suffer greatly if you stay in a miserable relationship. If your feelings and safety dont count (your first post), then she does not either.

 

That's a big part of it. I don't want her to kill herself or something like that. I really do care so much about her. I want her to be okay.

 

Do you have odd/embarrassing stuff that you feel she will exploit? Either way, never declare enduring love due to fear, love and fear or different, no confusion.

 

I can't think of anything right now, but I don't think so.

 

Do you have perents, etc. telling you what to feel?

 

I haven't picked up on it, are you two living together?

 

No, I haven't spoken to my parents about this. And we do not live together, but she is over at my place 5-6 nights a week.

[BlueIris]

BPD is serious. All personality disorders are. Violence is also serious. I agree with those recommending that you break up with her.

It's wonderful that you want her to be okay, but you can't control what she does and can't twist your life around in hopes that it will affect what she chooses to do.

[Mirages]

Thanks for being clear in your answers Joe.

 

That's a big part of it. I don't want her to kill herself or something like that. I really do care so much about her. I want her to be okay.

 

Of all the questions, it seems you are latching on the above matter. Clinically it is called Codependency, but let us take it easy with labels, in short, you like to help people, a bit more than is healthy. I had a lot of that, I am still a bit more open to help those who need it, but... I learned a clear rule: my relationship will be discriminating and entirely with my consent and some benefit to me.

 

Think it over, tonight is the Jewish New Year, I am not Jewish, but for the sake of symbolism, let me suggest that it is the first day of the rest of your life.

[Downtown]

When things are good, they're great. She can be the most caring, sweet girl; but then it's like a switch flips and that's it.

Yes, a BPDer typically will be very caring and thoughtful while splitting you white but, in only ten seconds, can flip to splitting you black. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

Sadly, your GF's behavior likely will worsen greatly as soon as you two move in together. What usually happens is that the intense, passionate sexual activity goes off a cliff. The reason things are better now is that your current living arrangements allow her to have one or two mini-vacations away from you during the week, i.e., the nights she stays at her own apartment. BPDers have great difficulty tolerating sustained, uninterrupted closeness and intimacy. It triggers the BPDer's engulfment fear, making her feel like she is losing her identity into your strong personality -- making her feel like you are controlling her -- and making her feel like she is evaporating into thin air.

 

The reason I'm still with her though, is because I keep thinking to myself: "What if she's right? What if I am not a good boyfriend?". And that makes me stay.

Joe, that self-doubt is a contributing factor. But I don't think it is the primary reason you are staying. Granted, those of us remaining in these toxic relationships -- as I did for 15 years and you've done for 3 years -- do mistakenly believe we can restore the BPDer to that wonderful person we saw at the beginning if we can only figure out what it is WE are doing wrong.

 

As I understand it, however, the reason we we got to be this way is that -- during our childhood and adolescence -- we were taught to see ourselves as the "little fixers" and "problem solvers" of the family. The result is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

We therefore tend to be strongly attracted to the "wounded birds" of the world, which can lead to a disastrous outcome when we are searching for a suitable mate. We walk right on past all the women who are emotionally available (BORING!) until we find someone who desperately needs us. Our problem is not that we want to help others but, rather, that we keep doing it even when it is to our great detriment -- and when our efforts are actually counterproductive. Shari Schreiber explains how we likely got to be such excessive caretakers in her article at Core Injury.

 

I want to be there for her, but my patience is running out.

"Being there" for a BPDer causes her more harm than good, as you will find out if you make the mistake of marrying this young woman. Your mere presence in the room will trigger her two fears: abandonment and engulfment. Moreover, it is impossible for you to avoid triggering those fears. The reason, as I noted in the thread you read, is that the two fears lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum.

 

This means that, as you are backing away from her to avoid triggering her engulfment fear, you necessarily are starting to trigger her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no Goldilocks position which is not too close and not too far away. Hence, trying to heal and comfort a BPDer by "being there for her" -- as you say -- is as counterproductive as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. You are causing more damage than good.

 

She told me two days ago that she will look to continue treatment, but will that help?

Perhaps so. As I said earlier, there is perhaps a 1% chance of success. The odds are very much against you, however. Moreover, if you want to give her a reasonable time in which to improve in weekly therapy, you must be willing to wait for several years at the very least.

 

Further, even assuming you do wait around for several more years, HOW will you be able to tell that she is getting better? Think about it. BPDers, by their very nature, typically are seen "getting better" every few weeks. Like smokers who are always "quitting" every few weeks, a BPDer will be seen to dramatically improve her behavior just as often. Yet, because you love her so much, you will be inclined to view these "improvements" as permanent -- when they really represent only one more upswing on the lengthy roller coaster ride of upswings followed by downswings.

 

Would you happen to know if I can talk to her therapist so I can get it straight from him/her about how bad her borderline actually is?

As Mirages said, you would need to obtain her consent before he would speak with you about it. Even if that happens, it is doubtful he would speak with you candidly. After all, her therapist is ethically bound to protect HER best interests, not yours. This is why therapists generally are loath to tell the BPDer -- much less tell her BF -- the name of her disorder. It usually is not in the best interests of the client to be told.

 

My experience is that therapists generally will tell the low functioning BPDers the name of their disorder. Yet, the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, from whom the diagnosis usually is withheld. There are a number of reasons for withholding this information from HF BPDers. If you are interested, I discuss those reasons at Loath to Diagnose BPD. I mention this because, given that your GF was told she "has BPD," it is all the more likely she has very serious issues.

 

In any event, relying on your GF's therapist for candid advice would be as foolish as relying on your wife's attorney during a divorce. It is prudent to obtain advice from a professional who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. I therefore would suggest that, if you are ever inclined to marry this young woman, you first consult with a good psychologist who can give you his candid opinion based on the behaviors you are able to describe to him.

[joemax]

Thank you Downtown for all your input and advice.

 

One thing though, is that I haven't really noticed much of the 'engulfment' you refer to. Abandonment, yes, absolutely, but the engulfment is not so obvious?

 

Also, how are you so well-informed when it comes to this topic? Is it exclusively from having to deal with it for 15 years? Or do you have any medical background? Also, do you mind if I ask how you finally 'dealt' with your situation with your wife?

 

I am so overwhelmed right now, and in sixes and sevens about what I should do. There is so much information and things running through my head. But thank you to everyone that has posted it so far trying to help me.

[Downtown]

I haven't really noticed much of the 'engulfment' you refer to. ... the engulfment is not so obvious?

No, Joe, the engulfment is not obvious at all. You have to know what to look for. Indeed, the BPDer herself usually doesn't know she is experiencing engulfment. The reason is that, because she hates herself and has a weak self image, her subconscious protects her from seeing too much of reality. It does this by projecting her painful and suffocating feelings onto YOU. The result is that, at a conscious level, she really is convinced that YOU are the true source of those painful feelings.

 

She therefore will accuse you of being controlling and making her unhappy. Moreover, she will start numerous fights -- over absolutely nothing at all -- as a way of pushing you away so she can get breathing room. She will truly believe, however, that the absurd allegation coming out of her mouth is the real reason for the fight. She will not be aware that it is simply a projection of her engulfment fear. This is why BPDers frequently start arguments over issues so trivial that both of you likely will forget what the argument was about a few days later. And this is why the very WORST fights usually happen after the very BEST of times, e.g., right after an intimate evening or in the middle of a great vacation. The BPDer starts feeling engulfed during these times of sustained intimacy.

 

Also, how are you so well-informed when it comes to this topic? Is it exclusively from having to deal with it for 15 years? Or do you have any medical background?

No, I have no medical background. Rather, I am just a man who lived with a BPDer for 15 years and dealt frequently with the many psychologists treating her. Moreover, I have read a lot about it and have communicated online with nearly a hundred, self-aware BPDers -- and with many hundreds of "Nons" (i.e., the caregiver non-BPDers like us).

 

I am so overwhelmed right now, and in sixes and sevens about what I should do. There is so much information and things running through my head.

A man having strong personal boundaries would have walked away from your BPDer relationship two years ago, if not three. It is the excessive caregivers like us who hang on for years and years, being loath to walk away from a sick loved one. As I said, we are "fixers" and thus are convinced that, if we can only discover what WE are doing wrong, we can somehow fix the broken relationship.

 

Moreover, our personal boundaries are so low -- and our empathy so great -- that we cannot distinguish between our own problems and those of our mate. Being unable to tell where "we" leave off and "she" begins, we become enmeshed with her in an unhealthy way, which means our happiness becomes fully dependent on her happiness -- a very bad situation when you are with a BPDer because nothing will make her happy for very long.

 

The result is that, absent therapy, very few of us caregivers ever manage to walk away from a BPDer relationship. The very notion of walking away from a sick loved one -- even when that is exactly what we should do -- goes against our sense of ethics, our religion, and every fiber of our nature. What typically happens, then, is that the BPDers eventually walk away from us after about 12 to 15 years. As the years go by, the BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy (an impossible task). Also, she grows increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.

 

Also, do you mind if I ask how you finally 'dealt' with your situation with your wife?

I did everything wrong. I spent over $200,000 taking her to psychologists and doctors and MCs -- all to no avail. She just got worse. In that sense, then, I never "dealt" with my situation at all -- mainly because I did not know what I was dealing with. NONE of the six psychologists would tell me the name of her disorder. Instead, they would only tell me the name of the co-occurring "clinical" disorders such as anxiety and depression. The result was that, after 15 years of marriage, my exW walked away from me.

 

By "walked away" I mean she called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge of abusing her. Because it was early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail nearly three full days before going before a judge and being released. That gave her plenty of time to acquire a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months, the time it takes to get a divorce here in my state. When a man is accused of spousal abuse, the courts hand out R/O's like candy.

[Mirages]

By "walked away" I mean she called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge of abusing her. Because it was early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail nearly three full days before going before a judge and being released. That gave her plenty of time to acquire a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months, the time it takes to get a divorce here in my state. When a man is accused of spousal abuse, the courts hand out R/O's like candy.

 

Very sad, but common. Dt.'s story is very similar to mine in all aspects, except that I never got to get arrested (but my wife's affair attempt almost got another man in the same jail trip).

 

Advice: If you decide to part, you may best do it with a voice recorder on you, and/or label it as a time off, keep her away for a couple of weeks, then detach. You may also choose to voluntarily speak to a foreign missionary group about a one year deployment (don't necessarily go abroad, but get the applications coming the mail) this changes the attention from her public perception being shattered, to one of "Joemax is becoming some sort of monk guy, yuck." Lastly, if she is cheating on you, find out, use that argument, mine seemingly had 2x affair attempts, I did not spy on her, if I did it had been over back around 2004. With that black and white evidence you are better empowered to split (I know you are not married, but the advice still relevant).

[joemax]

 

By "walked away" I mean she called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge of abusing her. Because it was early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail nearly three full days before going before a judge and being released. That gave her plenty of time to acquire a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months, the time it takes to get a divorce here in my state. When a man is accused of spousal abuse, the courts hand out R/O's like candy.

 

That's messed up man, sorry to hear that. It's so weird that they would feel so dependent on us and then just decide to walk away? just like that?

 

 

Advice: If you decide to part, you may best do it with a voice recorder on you, and/or label it as a time off, keep her away for a couple of weeks, then detach. You may also choose to voluntarily speak to a foreign missionary group about a one year deployment (don't necessarily go abroad, but get the applications coming the mail) this changes the attention from her public perception being shattered, to one of "Joemax is becoming some sort of monk guy, yuck." Lastly, if she is cheating on you, find out, use that argument, mine seemingly had 2x affair attempts, I did not spy on her, if I did it had been over back around 2004. With that black and white evidence you are better empowered to split (I know you are not married, but the advice still relevant).

 

You really think I should take it that far, in terms of a voice recorder and faking me leaving? Also, how do I find out if she's cheating on me?

[Redhead14]

Abuse is abuse. Whether its a man or a woman and whether they have a personality disorder and especially since she has been educated about it, she is still held accountable for her actions.

 

If you love her enough to overlook it, and I do not recommend that you do, you both will need to get counseling Period. You will need counseling to be able to keep yourself intact mentally and emotionally as well as to help her manage.

 

The root of this is about abusive and controlling behavior, nothing more, nothing less.