Tonia2 Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 For some reason, I can't post on the previous thread i'm afraid. Bad luck, Dave. But please don't beat yourself up about it. It happens to the best of us - and I am sure that not only will she attribute it to you being drunk, but she probably did enjoy the attention a wee bit. That is not to say that I think you should do it again though! I think you might have to just leave things to fate now - but I am sure that you know that. Trust me, no contact will work eventually - you will feel better. How about talking to a professional? They have seen this so many times and I always feel so much better afterwards. Also, rely on your friends, they can be such a help. Please don't obsess about what you did/ how she reacted too much - we all know that it gets us nowhere. Jason, you sound like you are doing really well - I know that you will be cool - just don't drink too much next Friday. My ex has asked me for dinner tonight and has hired a film that he knows I really want to see. Its all very strange, and I'm afraid I am going - out of curiosity as much as anything. He has also asked me over next week - think he might be geetting a bit lonesome (he also spent the day with my brother yesterday, while I was out of town.) As far as the CP stuff goes - I think that unless you are in that type of relationship, you don't necessarily know the text book pattern it takes. I have been dumped before, and I have dealt with it. The progression of this relationship is completely a-typical to that pattern. I think most of our partners when confronted (mine has anyway) will acknowledge that their behaviour is committment phobic. I showed mine bullet points of exact behaviour outlined for CP and he fit every category. I am sure there are lots of people who blame the demise of a relationship on CP if they can't deal with the reality, but the very fact that we are so bewildered by the breakdown of our relationships shows that there was nothing fundamentally wrong. My ex for one will say that he really loves me, is attracted to me, we don't fight and there is lots of chemistry. However something indefinable is 'missing' for him. That is not typical of a normal relationship breakup and neither is the fact that as soon as I withdraw, he suddenly becomes very interested again. Good luck you guys and keep your chins up. Will let you know how tonight goes. I really hope that in the warmth of his flat, with our overwhelming feelings (sexual and emotional) going on we don't mess up...
zep52 Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 Yeh you are right all up to fate now, have been beating myself up but i deserve a good beating, acted like a stupid adolescent, on a first date, what more can i say, im glad things seem to be going the right way for you and your ex, keep cool and i am sure all will be fine, And Jason take Tonias advice on the alcohol, its very good advice, it and emotions do not mix well, take my word for it, so its the first day of the rest of my life, could be a rainbow waiting for me round the corner, yep could be.... Dave...
jasondotcom Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 I didn't see this new thread earlier on! Tonia, all these dates that aren't dates sure make it seem like he's trying to woo you. You be careful, you don't want to do anything you'll regret. Mind you from where I'm sitting it looks like a nice problem to have...I should be so lucky! Lucky for me I don't really drink a lot, so I should be fine on that score on Friday night. I'll probably see him on Sunday too, and at least once the next weekend for more of the film festival. So there is no need for me to rush into anything Friday and potentially ruin things. I just have to keep this thought in the front of my mind! I went out Saturday to try and get a shag, to remind myself there are other guys out there and to ease the intimacy withdrawals. If you're gay and not too fussy it really is too easy. But I spent most of the night thinking "I don't want to be here doing this, it's soul destroying". Instead I kept thinking how much I'd rather be going home to him My mind seems to be operating on two levels at the moment. On one hand I'm slowly looking forward more and more (facing facts, perhaps?), and in some ways I'd love to go on a date with someone new, at least partly to make him jealous (not that it would probably work). On the other hand I'm as sure as ever of what (who) I want, and unconvinced I should just let it slip away. Sigh...this way madness lies. Dave, Tonia's suggestion about thinking about seeing a professional is a good one. I'm thinking of going back to mine soon to talk about this new theory of mine (the CP/codependence thing) for a bit of a reality check. It's the place where I hold myself accountable and am honest with myself. I always come away feeling better and clearer about things...I recommend it to you. Tonia, I hear what you are saying: "there was nothing fundamentally wrong. My ex for one will say that he really loves me, is attracted to me, we don't fight and there is lots of chemistry." That's the basis on which we decided to have a second go several months back. Shortly after coming together again as friends we found ourselves admitting, against our better judgement, that we were still in love. Other people started saying to us "well what's the problem then? why aren't you together?", and so we did just that. He readily admits to CP tendencies too, so I guess what I have learned is that all the right feelings of love are not enough to stop things going wrong again. There has to be some real effort to solve the problem this time or there really is no point. This is the area in which I worry about you Tonia. You both seem to be feeling the feelings, but where is he at with doing something about it? I guess you know this only too well, and that it means you have to be all the stronger.
zep52 Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 Last night my phone rang at 11.30 i pick it up and its her, oh my god its her, says im really messed up will you come and get me, pick my jaw up from the floor and go and get her, we talk all night and she wants me back, Talked about all the heavy issues we had as a couple and she seems to be willing to make changes, we are going to take it slow, i to have to change somewhat, will fill you both in later, am going to bed have been up 2 nights in a row now and im shattered, but im happy again, that rainbow was just around the very first corner, and the sun is shining brightly here in Cambridge Dave
jasondotcom Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 Dave, oh my God, that is a fantastic turn up, I am so happy for you. See, we told you what you did in the pub wasn't that bad. Looks like it was just right actually. Seems like the 8 week theory holds true afterall (he says as he checks his diary...oh, 8 weeks for me Sunday!). Make sure you remember how you feel now. You've kept the faith and been determined to get her back despite the nagging doubt that the whole idea is delusional. I reckon the feeling of vindication you get at this moment is the best you will feel in your life. Glad to hear you're planning on taking it slowly and that the heavy issues got talked about. Is couples' counselling on the agenda? I know you've just got what you wanted and are on cloud nine for the next few days, but I really want to warn you to be very careful now. Remember, I've been where you are now, and I f*cked it up well and good. Make sure you keep it going slow for a good while and be on the look out for the re-emergence of the commitment phobic stuff. You know the signs and the pattern of it now, don't fall asleep on this. In our case we took it slow and did counselling, but then things just sped up and out of control. Really, he decided on a "make it or break it" approach without consulting or telling me, and it worked. He'd set up his out again. I'd been lulled into a sense of security by the second honeymoon period and didn't see what was happening. His criticism and control started again, and although I recognised it and it pissed me off, I didn't realise the toll it had taked on my self esteem and willingness to challenge it. He'd told me he had a fear of commitment, but I didn't understand commitment phobia in the way we've been talking about it here at all. You do have the gift of that knowledge at the right time, so please make sure you use it and stay vigilant. I think that spotting the signs and knowing how best to deal with it are two different things, which is why I'd be a fan of doing counselling together in your situation. My experience of couples counselling obviously wasn't that successful. We did talk about a lot of heavy and important stuff, but what a difference it'd have made to be able to say to the counsellor that our main issue was his commitment phobia and my unhealthy reaction to it. Some key mistakes we made towards the end just wouldn't have happened. I know your ex (or soon to be again!) probably isn't at the point of saying she's commitment phobic. So this is just something to think about, ok? I don't mean too sound negative, I'm very, very pleased for you. I just want to make sure you realise how important it's going to be to keep your wits about you in this next phase.
Author Tonia2 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Posted March 7, 2005 Dave, thats amazing... just don't be too quick to do all the changing please. You sound like a really sound bloke, and she sounds like she could have a propensity to be a bit manipulative. I know that it feels like the best thing in the world at the moment, but be cautious. I am really glad though that things seem to be going right. Jason, you sound really positive too, and thanks for your advice. Why don't you go out and sniff around a bit. I know how hard it is to detach yourself from what is going on in your head. I for one feel a massively misplaced loyalty if I even look at another bloke. It is so ironic, isn't it. News from my end more positive too - Did a bad thing yesterday, but it may not have turned out so bad… The ex invited me for dinner – I went, and he had set up quite a seduction scene. The night before he had been with my brother and had expressed his doubts about our break-up. Anyway, we had a nice dinner, tried to watch a movie, but of course couldn’t, and ended up in bed. I have to say, it was really nice. Afterwards, I got the impression that he wanted to talk to me about something – he kept raising the issue and then bottling it. Eventually he said he would like to get some counselling. He expressed his concerns that if he couldn’t make it work with me, he wouldn’t be able to make it work with anyone, and he doesn’t want to end up alone. I asked if he was totally committed to it being over between us, and he twice said that he absolutely wasn’t. I know he is still having his cake, but I sensed a real uneasiness with him. I really don’t think he wants to f*ck this up. He said, totally unprompted that he thinks I am amazing, and he was pretty insecure about my plans for the short-term that don’t include him. I think he may be coming round, but I am also preparing for the fact that he may not. Its quite positive though, is it not? I shouldn’t have slept with him, but I am as much to blame as him – we can’t seem to keep our hands off each other (which means we probably shouldn’t hook up at the moment) but it was very tender and loving too. What do we think?
Author Tonia2 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Posted March 7, 2005 Oh, by the way, on re-reading my thread, it all looks a bit more positive than it actually was. I think he is definitely getting off on the illicit thrill of our meetings, and I can't let that go on - I am not prepared to keep sneaking around and lying to my friends. Also, he certainly didn't say that he wants another go - although I didn't challenge him on this. I think my best course of action is to stay a bit detached and unavailable, otherwise he may think he can keep this going...
Author Tonia2 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Posted March 7, 2005 Latest developments - can I ask your advice please guys: Have just had a long chat with him actually. He is terrified of hurting me again, but wants an exclusive relationship – just not on the footing that it was before (make any sense? Not making much to me…) The exclusivity is the most important thing to me. He seems really scared of offering me anything, but acknowledges that it is probably his problem and hopes that his counseling will sort his head out and stop him wanting the impossible intensity that you cannot have when you live with someone. He says he loves me, cares about me etc. I am confused. It will involve sneaking around if we do do this, but if he is really committed to having counseling, then I am keen to make a go of it. We moved in to a very intense situation much too early, and I think he wants to go back to the bit that we missed out on - he evn kind of said this to me. He also said that he would rather have a non-sexual relationship with me and review it in time than for me to cut contact with him. In an ideal world, that is probably what I should go for, but you know me and ideal scenarios!! Fine in theory, but I stand to get pretty hurt if it messes up again, you know? He seems positive without making any promises. I have to decide if I love him enough and if that is good enough for me. I am scared of selling myself short, but I am scared of losing him and something that could be good potentially. He is addicted to the short term highs of a relationship, but not the long haul - I hope that this is what counselling will sort out for him. Would I be an idiot to comply? I really really want to. He also said that if we cut contact for a long time, he would be unlikely to come back begging. He said that this was nothing to do with me, as he thinks I am amazing, but from his experience with his wife, who cut contact for some months and he didn't really mind. I think he would find me a lot harder to get over though (he always said our relationship break-up was harder than their marriage break-up.) He sounds a bit of a tw*t, but he really really isn't. He is trying to be honest. Please don't just automatically tell me that I am being an idiot and should ignore him...
Author Tonia2 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Posted March 7, 2005 Latest developments - can I ask your advice please guys: Have just had a long chat with him actually. He is terrified of hurting me again, but wants an exclusive relationship – just not on the footing that it was before (make any sense? Not making much to me…) The exclusivity is the most important thing to me. He seems really scared of offering me anything, but acknowledges that it is probably his problem and hopes that his counseling will sort his head out and stop him wanting the impossible intensity that you cannot have when you live with someone. He says he loves me, cares about me etc. I am confused. It will involve sneaking around if we do do this, but if he is really committed to having counseling, then I am keen to make a go of it. We moved in to a very intense situation much too early, and I think he wants to go back to the bit that we missed out on - he evn kind of said this to me. He also said that he would rather have a non-sexual relationship with me and review it in time than for me to cut contact with him. In an ideal world, that is probably what I should go for, but you know me and ideal scenarios!! Fine in theory, but I stand to get pretty hurt if it messes up again, you know? He seems positive without making any promises. I have to decide if I love him enough and if that is good enough for me. I am scared of selling myself short, but I am scared of losing him and something that could be good potentially. He is addicted to the short term highs of a relationship, but not the long haul - I hope that this is what counselling will sort out for him. Would I be an idiot to comply? I really really want to. He also said that if we cut contact for a long time, he would be unlikely to come back begging. He said that this was nothing to do with me, as he thinks I am amazing, but from his experience with his wife, who cut contact for some months and he didn't really mind. I think he would find me a lot harder to get over though (he always said our relationship break-up was harder than their marriage break-up.) He sounds a bit of a tw*t, but he really really isn't. He is trying to be honest. Please don't just automatically tell me that I am being an idiot and should ignore him... I think he feels that I am expecting it to be all or nothing, and he did say that he was quite a long way from asking me to move in with him (although getting closer) as we both had to be sure, and I would have to trust him again.
jasondotcom Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 Well, well, well. Things are certainly moving right along for both of you. I'm trying real hard not to feel left out. :-) I have to say that my expectations of Friday and beyond are pretty low now. It's hard to see the third time lucky scenario as a realistic possibility. I think he'd be like your ex Tonia, terrified of hurting me again even if he did want to get back together, and that this would stop him from going there at all. And sadly I think that's something I should probably be thankful for and admire him for. Still, we'll see. Tonia it sounds like he might be starting to get it. The counselling issue is important as I assume he's like most men and usually pretty reluctant and sceptical about such things. So this could be a big deal. But getting counselling doesn't automatically mean he'll have to commitment necessary to really deal with his issues. I know you'd like to jump back in and pick the relationship up where you left off to some extent, albeit with some changes, improvement and slowed down a bit. But maybe there is something in the "non sexual relationship and reviewing it later" approach. I know for me that kind of thing would be just about the ideal outcome at this point. In fact second time round we sort of started out this way - no sex for the first month. I dunno how important keeping sex out of the picture really is, but if this really is that important to you and you want to avoid getting hurt again, maybe it's worth thinking about. If you can keep him close, with an intention of picking things up when the conditions are better, then why not have a period of having your cake and eating it too yourself for a while...? You will find it hard to trust him for some time...trust me. After three months I was still nowhere near trusting my ex again. I know if there was a third time that trust would be an even tougher issue and I might just find it is the thing which makes it impossible from my perspective. So maybe your priority should be to support him in his counselling etc, watch for his commitment to it and allow yourself the time and space for trust to be rebuilt. If there's the possibility for some sort of half-way arrangement with him in the meantime, with or without sex involved, perhaps that's the ideal for the time being. God knows it would be the ideal for me. I know the temptation is for all or nothing, but remember it was the prospect of all that freaked him out in the first place, and like it or not you're going to have to manage his fears for a while yet. Easing into things slowly and only upping the ante as and when he can really deal with it could be the answer. The fact he even raised this option makes me wonder if in fact he knows that's the way he's likely to cope best. Like I said to Dave, you have to be very careful now. It's easy to feel like saying "I knew it, he does love me, this is going to work" and become complacent about the CP stuff. He'll be in a similar "winning you over" phase at the moment to when you first met, which can be intoxicating and dangerous for you...you can't afford to forget this for a second. You don't want to become too much the "caretaker" of his "problem" though which is why holding something back, keeping a carrot in your pocket, seems like an idea worth considering to me. Just my initial thoughts...again I hope I don't sound like a killjoy or automatically cynical because of my own experience. I want to see it work for you both.
jasondotcom Posted March 8, 2005 Posted March 8, 2005 Here's my own pathetic update. I emailed him yesterday in a group email I sent about an online campaign we're running at work (I work for a trade union). He replied that he'd sent the protest email as I asked. He also told me he'd won an iPod, and as I'm a Mac/iPod freak and he doesn't have a proper computer at home, that maybe I can help him set it up. He also said he hoped I was still cool with dinner and a drink before the movie Friday. So I said I was still cool with it, and was looking foward to it. Said I'd be happy to help with the iPod too. I was upbeat about how I am generally, saying "things with me generally are pretty good too, and getting better every day, which is as it should be". A small white lie! I also alluded to doing something together the weekend after next - there's a coffee festival on which we went to together last year, he's quite the coffee freak. I hope that won't turn out to be pushing things too much. I know there's really nothing to this exchange, but even little bits of contact like this are causing me a little bit of anxiety at the moment. I'm guessing I'll probably get more anxious as Friday approaches. I think I'm expecting to feel quite let down after seeing him, that there'll be some sign from him that he's moved on and will never look back. What I'd like to hear, and I know Friday's probably too early for this, is that he does love me but feels it just can't work at the moment, but who knows in time. That really would be enough for me for the time being. But, yeah, I'm pretty concerned I've set myself up for another fall...
Author Tonia2 Posted March 8, 2005 Author Posted March 8, 2005 Thank you mate. This situation is far from ideal to be honest, and some aspects make me extremely uncomfortable. Sometimes I look at it and think he is getting all the perks of being with an attractive, intelligent fun girl, without any of the responsibility of being a boyfriend. One of our issues was that I made things too easy for him, and I am worried that this scenario is doing the same. We are going to have to sneak around from my parents and some of my friends (I live with my bro – who happens to work for Apple by the way!) and I am uncomfortable with that. Having said all that, he is (as I have said many times) honourable and would never deliberately hurt me, and this does seem like a good solution for me as well in a lot of ways – I don’t want us to go back to how we were either. I also sometimes expend so much energy chasing something that I forget what I am chasing – and this might be a good opportunity to get some objectivity back and see what I want, and whether that is him. All I can say is that Sunday was good – he was attentive and sweet and passionate, and we had a great time. I think you are right about the carrot thing. It is time to be a bit disingenuous perhaps. He called last night – I had six people round and was having a laugh – he was lonely, watching a BBC drama alone in his ‘ivory tower’. I think I need to give him glimpses of what life with me is like, without making myself available to him all the time. I want him to work for me, you know… It is strange to go from him coming on weekends away with my family to being totally self-contained, but then maybe that is what we need at this stage. Jason, Friday could go either way, but I am glad you seem to have set realistic expectations about it. The likelihood is that you will come away with nothing resolved – you could read a million things into his behaviour, but ultimately you will not know how he is feeling unless you talk to him about it. And I am afraid that I don’t think Friday is the time or place. By his easy correspondence with you, it seems that he is feeling much less pressured, and that can only be a good thing. You need to redevelop your rapport, without loads of hidden agendas and angst, before you can go forward. You know what it is like when you are confronted about something endlessly that you are not ready to talk about? I am sure you also know what it is like when you are feeling companionable and receptive, and ready to talk? For example, me and ex were lying in bed on Sunday and he was so much more chilled out and receptive, and we were much closer than we had been for ages. This prompted him to bring up counselling without feeling cornered by me. I hope this is making some sense. I know what it is like when you want resolution and answers, and you want them now, but keep your eye on the ultimate goal, and try not to f*ck anything up in the meantime, OK? Keep me posted how you are feeling…
ReluctantRomeo Posted March 8, 2005 Posted March 8, 2005 Originally posted by Tonia2 This situation is far from ideal to be honest, and some aspects make me extremely uncomfortable. Sometimes I look at it and think he is getting all the perks of being with an attractive, intelligent fun girl, without any of the responsibility of being a boyfriend. One of our issues was that I made things too easy for him, and I am worried that this scenario is doing the same. We are going to have to sneak around from my parents and some of my friends (I live with my bro – who happens to work for Apple by the way!) and I am uncomfortable with that. Hi Tonia! Glad it's working out and everything, but I'm not really sure I get the "secret girlfriend" routine. I can understand why you don't want to go public, but surely your bro and a close friend could know? Commitments are much more tangible when a 3rd party knows about them...
Author Tonia2 Posted March 8, 2005 Author Posted March 8, 2005 I know exactly what you mean - but I am not sure I am even a girlfriend at the moment, or any of the committment that that entails. We haven't discussed this, and you may think I am mad, but we are just feeling our way through things at the moment. I am reluctant to push things - we are a lot further on than we were a month ago. Telling my brother would be fatal - he has a huge mouth, it would get back to my folks, who have been very tolerant, but I think that this would stretch it.
Author Tonia2 Posted March 8, 2005 Author Posted March 8, 2005 If the parents thing needs more explanation, they would only be content if he came back proposing to me. I don't want this at the moment - lots to sort out and lots of trust to be slowly gained, on both our sides, so that is why I don't want them to find out. Quite a few of my friends do know though. I have been a 'secret girlfriend' before, and it did my head in, so I will not let this go on indefinitely.
jasondotcom Posted March 8, 2005 Posted March 8, 2005 I like what I'm hearing! It'll be a very good thing if you go into this being objective and thinking about what you really want and whether it's him. I think it's really easy when you get back together with them to think "yes, I did it" and that you've got back what you need, but you're less focussed on whether it's really right for you and what you want. If you choose to apply the whole CP framework we've talked about, then this is the battered self esteem becomming addicted to the notion that only winning the ex back can make things feel better. I'm constantly asking myself if that's what I'm really doing lately. So far I end up saying "interesting, but I do know I love him and want to be with him" each time. But the question keeps popping up, which can only be a good sign, although the self doubt it causes can be a killer. Umm, I think I might have lost my train of thought with that! I might have been trying to say it's so much better if you can keep your objectivity about what you really want now at the stage you're at, rather than tearing yourself apart with those questions later like someone I know. Then again, that's what I thought I was doing, so I clearly haven't a clue what I'm talking about. Don't listen to me. Having to sneak around people, is that because you're sensitive to what they might say or think about you seeing him again? If so I can understand that. Actually, I told my flatmate last night that if C and I did happen to get together again one day, we'd probably keep it secret for a while I imagined because most people who know me would think I'm nuts and probably try to stop me. Of course he says he'll be on the lookout for signs now I've told him that (he's been a lot more vocal in his concern at what he thinks I'm doing to myself in recent days). I keep straying off the point don't I (there's a reason...). I know you're uncomfortable with it, but if it's about giving yourself the time and space to figure out if this can work for you or not, then that's ok for a while, isn't it? I take it your brother will know. Will he keep the secret? Yeah not being too available all the time would be a good move I reckon. I do know that you want him to work for you. It's great he's got some awareness of commitment phobia and is seeing a counsellor, that's a solid start. Holding something back to give him the incentive to actually put it into practice has got to be better than handing yourself over from the start. I hope you can stay strong enough to do it. Yeah it's funny about me and anxiety when it comes to him. I know that within moments of meeting up with him it will dissolve and I'll feel a lot easier and relaxed. It's what always happens pretty much. I might be a little worried I'll blunder in to a conversation I don't intend to have right now, but it is so obvious that it'd be the wrong time that I should be fine. I think you're spot on that he's feeling less pressured now, and the last thing I want is to reintroduce him to the idea of me as a source of pressure in his life. Yeah, there is enough work ahead of us just in getting the rapport back. Part of me wonders what we're going to talk about for 3 hours with all these topics off the agenda, but we've always had 7 or 8 hour conversations when we'd planned we were only getting together for an hour, so I should just trust that will take care of itself. What you said makes a lot of sense, and I thank you for it, it's helping me get my mind clear on things. Yes, I know my priority now ought to be relaxing and focussing on my own life a bit more, not being driven by impatience. I will keep you posted.
jasondotcom Posted March 8, 2005 Posted March 8, 2005 Oh I just saw that your brother won't know and wouldn't keep the secret! The last thing you'd want from this guy now is a marriage proposal, how could you possibly take it seriously or trust him enough! But you can kind of understand a parent's perspective in thinking that if he has the gall to be coming back to you then this is what he should be prepared to offer you...
Author Tonia2 Posted March 8, 2005 Author Posted March 8, 2005 I thought this may amuse you, if you can unravel it, from a variety of perspectives. My brother broke up with his g/f just before me and ex b/f. She is Australian, and has basically stalked him relentlessly - it is a good eg. of how not to behave in a relationship... also, I would appreciate feedback about my tone with ex - b/f. I will not contact him again today - am I overdoing it or playing it cool? He asked me to forward this to him... -------------------------emails begin below - bottom up---------------------------------------- cod idiom – big words for a small d… I know… but its all lying anyway. Tautology (billy one better) - lying is the only form of deceit really. I just have visions of her being in a permanent state like she was that evening that she broke the picture of her and A. Brewing this venom that she vents so inappropriately. Do you think my advice was sound? Can you imagine how angry she will be getting not having had any comeback to her sh*t. As far as my family go – there was a sort of bemused embarrassment at first, and by the end of the evening, everyone was laughing at her. I fail to find that disloyal anymore – and you know how loyal I am. She has become a parody of herself. Sorry about your sciatica – it would be really constructive to get all these things dealt with properly – although I have to say that I feel like I have run quite a rigorous 10k race after Sunday evening, so that might be something to do with it? What would you do if you were my bro? -----Original Message----- From: ex bf to me this is incredible stuff. finding it hard to get past the spelling mistakes and the 11yr-old-style sentence construction to take the rest of it seriously. "lying is the lowest form of deceit" - what sort of cod idiom is that? i'd have thought tax fraud, conning an old lady by pretending to be a british gas employee etc are much worse. thanks for your emails on counsellors - i will take a look later. getting a lot of pain from my sciatic problem right now - need to get that sorted too. have the true feelings of your family started to eak out now she is persona non-grata? From:Me to ex b/f (he asked me to forward this stuff, because he lived with her too) Also a text message last night. This is brilliant and caused much hilarity at dinner last night – it followed one saying that she hates his guts 1 minute earlier: ‘I am off to watch my new boyfriend (American) in a pro surf comp. I haven’t even slept with him yet and he calls me Ella Bella. He also wants you to know that lying is the lowest form of deceit.’ I was wondering whether Mr Ella Bella would be pleased that Ella Bella is sending her ex freaky text messages every 2 minutes. She is more fun now than she ever was when we were living together. Did you get hotmail stuff? Any good? -----Original Message----- So sad and so desperate… I actually wouldn’t even do that to be honest. She knows this – she is just trying to hook you in by every last desperate manipulative tactic she has left… Just let it go – you really don’t owe her anything more. The way she vacillates between hating you and co-ercing you and guilt tripping you is extraordinary, but I don’t think you are doing her any favours by keeping any contact going. -----Original Message----- Bro to me: I've left it all day - the only reply I was going to give was I thought I made it clear I did not want to speak to you about any of this again - I've written everything I want to write and it's finished for me now. Pretty amazing, huh.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 7 Mar 2005, at 16:36, Tonia2 wrote to my bro: DO NOT ANSWER IT… what have you done? I know it is hard, but this is NEVER going to end if you do… -----Original Message----- Begin forwarded message: From: bros ex to my bro Sorry there is a few last question that you havent answered.... Do you love her? do you love her more than you loved me when you loved me and when you said that morning that you loved me where you telling the truth. we made love twice that day, and what you told me when you were making love was not from someone who wasnt feeling. We got bogged down with the realities of a relationship where as you have just been on holiday with clair for 3 weeks. Life isnt a holiday all the time and you have to put in a lot of hard work to make them last. I know I didnt put in because of many reasons but I never stopped loving you and as you know I would give my life to turn back the clock on our problems. I would appreciate an honest reply.
Author Tonia2 Posted March 8, 2005 Author Posted March 8, 2005 Yeah, and bro has a very big mouth! I think the ex would be very uncomfortable wtih family knowing as well - I can't really blame him for that after what has gone before (including my mum saying that my dad was going to call him and ask him when he was going to make an honest woman of me!!) I am sure you will be really strong - and who knows, you may even enjoy yourself!! We agonise over these things for so long, but sometimes it is fun just to try to remember why we like someone, and recapture that. The rest will happen of its own accord. Also, like I said before, when I wasn’t pressurising the ex to discuss what was going on, he started opening up and even becoming a little uneasy that I wasn’t bringing it up as usual – so this might happen for you. The dynamic of your relationship was not working before for some reason, so it needs to change. You need to instigate this change, and it might well wake him up, or at least facilitate the transition to the next phase. Do you think we should be putting up with such torturous situations, or do you think we should seek something simpler where we are adored as we are – flaws and all? Sometimes, when I don’t think about things so hard, I am fine with letting it take its natural course. Other times I am desperate to manipulate the outcome… exhausting.
jasondotcom Posted March 8, 2005 Posted March 8, 2005 Oh dear. My natural inclination is to empathise with the dumpee, especially as she's a fellow Aussie. But the poor thing does seem to have lost her perspective and and strayed into desperate territory. Sad really. If I start acting that way you have my permission to fly to Australia and shoot me. Once you start saying hateful stuff like she did then what's the point, she's just digging herself into a deeper and deeper hole. The invented new boyfriends is quite humerous. If you're going to invent a new boyfriend at least make it sound semi-believable! I'd be mortified if my ex and his sister, friends etc were talking about me in terms like you guys have talked about her in these emails (which is not a criticism of you guys in any way). Once you've stripped away your dignity and any respect your ex might have had for you to that degree you'd really just have to disappear for ever and try to forget the whole thing ever happened, surely. Sad because there's clearly a very hurt woman behind the craziness. Your tone with your ex sounds just fine to me. You come across as engaged and friendly, but you seem to be avoiding pressuring him - I noticed you'd been sending him info on counsellors though! It must be slightly odd chatting about the detail of someone else's breakup fallout together while you're navigating your way through your own situation. I suppose it shows you both how well you're doing in comparison...having retained each others' love and respect. I don't think you're overdoing it, but I would keep that question in mind so you don't stray off in that direction. And I think avoiding the urge to contact him every so often is a good idea. Having reestablished an email dialogue which is actually pretty relaxed with my ex, I have had to exercise some self control so I don't jump in and overdo it and piss him off...either through sending too many emails too often or saying too much/crapping on as I have a tendency to do! I know Friday will be fine, at the end of the day I trust myself. It's the obsessing, speculating and anxiety I allow to build up that's the real issue, and that's all about me. I know this and am slowly staring to feel like I can be bothered focussing on this rather then trying to be inside his head. Being more relaxed, strong and using this as an opportunity for personal growth is more likely to lead to a better outcome afterall. I gotta go to work now, but I'll probably post again during the day. I'm reading an interesting book at the moment that's helping me over intellectualise the whole thing even more!
Author Tonia2 Posted March 9, 2005 Author Posted March 9, 2005 Dude, she has lost it. He has had to say that he never wants to hear from her again, and she is still sending emails calling him a f*cking b*stard, that her mate has put a gypsy curse on him that is going to give him prostate problems... the girl has lost it and is SUCH a good example of how not to behave. Its a bit of light relief to be honest. She finished her last email to him: ha HA HA HA HA ha Ha hA You are going to be a failure X X ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- She also sent me one venting her spleen about my bro and then asking if i would like to keep in touch???!! go figure... (she is 32 by the way) Just as I was getting anxious that there had not been enough contact yesterday, I got a call which I ignored. Then a text 10 mins later asking if I was ok. when i did call back, he sounded v interested that I had been out with people he doesn't know, and we had a great chat. Then a text this morning saying that he loved the cufflinks I gave him at Christmas?! Seems to be working so far... Still pretty bemused about what is going on, but he even said on the phone yesterday that the quality of our emails has gone back to the early days. It certainly feels like that at the moment - with the balance of power much more equal - but is this all totally artificial?
zep52 Posted March 9, 2005 Posted March 9, 2005 Hi there you lot, been busy as you might expect the last few days so have not had time to post, funny thing is though i kinda missed this board, well things are going great, i have been very careful to not rush back in whole heartedly, and she seems kind of unsure of me, and has said that i have changed, she wanted to know why i did not send her a Birthday card, and Valentines, you have to wonder don't you !!! She also seems to have changed for the better, seems aware of her commitment problems through talking to her friends and seems to genuinely want to address them so all is looking favorable for the future, but rest assured that although it is hard to go against the grain and do want you would normally do the opposite of, it is exactly that which i am doing, im using my head instead of my heart to guide my actions, and it all seems fine even though it is very early days, We are making plans for the summer and tentatively the future, although i feel i am playing games to an extent i also feel that if i don't there will be no game to play so what can you do, its good to have her back though, and she has also told me that she was miserable without me, so we are in with a fighting chance of happiness, Will keep you informed as to future developments and hope all works out as well for the both of you (you know who you are) keep hoping, dreams do come true, your friend Dave...
jasondotcom Posted March 9, 2005 Posted March 9, 2005 A gypsy curse...?! I'm embarrased to share nationalities with this chick. Sounds like your evasiveness is doing the trick for the moment. I think if you're making this effort to ensure the balance of power is more equal it can't help but feel slightly artificial...afterall you're resisting your natural urge to jump right in and give yourself over to things. But I reckon after a while of letting the new attitude solidify it will feel right and natural. Keep an eye on it though, you don't want to end up beng the one who's pulling back and feeling disconnected from what you're involved in...which I know you won't! Dave I thought we might have lost you to "happy land"! Everything sounds very positive with you...thanks for the update. It is no wonder you feel a bit like you're playing games, but you do have to use your head and tread carefully with her for the time being I think. It'll settle down and feel more natural soon enough I'm sure. Hey I mentioned a book to Tonia earlier on which might be very useful for you too at the moment. "Getting to commitment" by Steven Carter. It looks at the "8 obstacles to commitment" and how to overcome them. I only just started reading it but it is very good. The guy who wrote it was the ultimate commitmentphobe himself, so it has the ring of authenticity and "this really works" about it. Might be useful for you and your woman to read together and talk through the issues it raises...? Just a thought. If I ever get the chance I would love to do just that with my ex.
jasondotcom Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Well, well, well. Just got an email from him saying the iPod he won is ready to be collected and that he might see if he can get it this evening. Otherwise he's suggesting we get together earlier Friday and I come with him to get it (and take it home with me to fill with songs for him). The interesting thing is he says "ring me at luchtime if you'd like to chat about it", which is a move forward because all our communication has been by email for the past few weeks. OK, so it's no big deal really, but a little bit of movement in a positive direction.
Author Tonia2 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 Yeah, definitely! It is such a delicate line we tread, and you are doing brilliantly. I am sure there are loads of other people/ colleagues that could help him, but I reckon the fact that he is not feeling pressurised and backed into a corner by you is bringing him round - even if only to friendship for the time-being. It is nice when we can put all our angst aside for a few moments and just remember why we like the other person and enjoy their company. It all does feel like such a game - but I think it has to be at the moment - I am sure you will handle it with the utmost tact and diplomacy. They are like scared animals in a burrow at times like this, aren't they? THey kind of want to be coaxed out, but one false move and they will retreat back. Mine called last night to discuss 'terms of engagement' for Friday - he has suggested a movie very near his house (9 songs - go figure?!) and I reiterated that exclusivity was my most important thing. He then told me that he was getting a payrise, and that he would give me something to 'get something pretty' or would give me some money to donate to the charity that I work for... all sounding promising. You are right though Jason - once we have tracked down our quarry (get me and the animal metaphors!) I am worried it just doesn't seem quite so appealling - gives me an insight into why he went off me and our relationship. Its nonsense though - I think I just want some clarity about where we stand. I am reluctant to discuss this on Friday though, for both of our sakes. It can get pretty torturous. Dave, what a result! I really hope things pan out for you - and you sound like you are taking it easy, so nice one... I reckon that you should really heed Jason's advice - it would be sad to see you back on here in a few months with it having gone the same way - when the time is right, you should demand that she faces up to her issues, and that you sort them out together. Laters....
Recommended Posts