How Far Does Honesty Go?

[Natsu21]

Hypothetical Question.

 

Suppose I started dating someone, and during one of our dates she reveals to me her past.

 

Now....here's the thing. I like honesty, I really do. It's one of my requirements for a potential relationship, but this...this is different.

 

She is recently divorced(finalized two years ago) Since then she's....

 

been involved with 4 men.

 

1. First one was her ex-husband, who was cheating on her in the relationship, so she cheated with her on his girlfriend(or in his case, multiple)

 

2. Two guys she was involved with at her job. Both had girlfriends as well.

 

3. At a dinner, one of her closest friend's boyfriends sat next to her and starting blatantly flirting with her. She said that his girlfriend was sitting right there and to go sit with her, but she didn't actively try to stop him, as he continued.

 

4. She was sleeping with a co-worker's boyfriend when she moved away, and it happened over a year. When I asked why did it stop, she said that they both agreed that it wasn't right and they quit it, shortly after he moved in with his long-distance girlfriend(I don't know why, but that doesn't sound like the right answer.)

 

Help guys. I really like this girl, but when she was honest with me, I wish she hadn't been. Things haven't been the same.

 

Please tell me, why am I feeling this way? What's wrong with me? Is this fair?

 

She was honest, so why does it bother me?

[Ronni_W]

She was honest, so why does it bother me?

Because she was honest with you...that she is a serial cheater...and vindictive. Generally someone who does what she wants when she wants and doesn't care so much about her (negative) impact on anyone else.

 

RUN AWAY!!!

[Elias33]

I think your concerns are normal. She has revealed quite some telling details about her past behavior without providing a sign of change. Is that correct? having one slip-up, or crazy affair, that can be looked over, but several sketchy situations...I would see that as a red flag, faintly in the distance...

[Natsu21]

We've been fighting a LOT since then, and it's all because of what she revealed. That begs the question...

 

Is honesty REALLY the best policy? Because I honesty do like her, I love her personality, but when she revealed to me that she was in multiple flings with taken men, it just screams "potential cheater"

 

I mean if she could lie about that...what else could she lie to me in the future about?

 

 

And yet she was honest about it. Why would she be honest about THIS?

[Natsu21]

Should I give her a chance? Do people like that change?

 

That's what I'm questioning.

[Ronni_W]

Should I give her a chance? Do people like that change?

Only SHE can tell you if she desires, intends, plans to change this behaviour of hers.

 

One reason to be honest about it upfront is so that, when she does it to you, you will not be able to say that you did not expect it...you will not be able to feel genuinely surprised, disappointed, upset. [because] She will be able to say, "But Natsu, you knew EXACTLY who/what I am; I never made a secret about it."

[Natsu21]

Only SHE can tell you if she desires, intends, plans to change this behaviour of hers.

 

One reason to be honest about it upfront is so that, when she does it to you, you will not be able to say that you did not expect it...you will not be able to feel genuinely surprised, disappointed, upset. [because] She will be able to say, "But Natsu, you knew EXACTLY who/what I am; I never made a secret about it."

 

 

That doesn't exactly make me want to be with her any more.

 

I understand that people can change, but all of this is so RECENT.

 

I believe in sexual freedom, but why subject yourself to screwing only TAKEN men? That's what REALLY bothers me. You may not be in the relationship, but you're openly helping to tamper with it.

[Elias33]

Her morals clash directly with yours. It's an unavoidable predicament. Whether she was honest about it or not, it doesn't make it better. It doesn't make it so that you are able to get over this. And understandably so.

[Natsu21]

Her morals clash directly with yours. It's an unavoidable predicament. Whether she was honest about it or not, it doesn't make it better. It doesn't make it so that you are able to get over this. And understandably so.

 

I really do hate it, honestly, because we have great chemistry, but through this, that's been the BIGGEST issue we've had.

 

I can't see past it. But I want to, because I generally believe that people can change.

 

But she has a history of not only cheating, but she doesn't seem to care who she does it to. And it wasn't a one time thing, it was MULTIPLE TIMES!

 

What she did to her friend was beyond disrespectful. Most women I've known would have told the sleazeball to go to hell, especially when he's in front of his girlfriend, but she says a few words and continues to let him do it. What if she does that to me? That's my concern.

[iiiii]

Honest is important.

 

You are seeing one of the results of honesty, which is that you know the person better than you did before.

 

In this case, she's revelealed something you don't like - that her values, her morals, are possibly different to yours.

 

That might seem bad right now (if only you didn't know, you could go on pretending she was a person with similar morals to you!)

 

But in the long term, it is better you know what her values and morals are. If you don't want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks that this kind of behaviour is OK, you are lucky to know the truth at this point.

[OwMyEyeball]

About 4 months into my relationship my ex revealed to be - unintentionally - that she had cheated on her previous partner.

 

The relationship lasted another 4 months, but from that point on the relationship began to unravel.

 

I should have been more up front with her and asked her what drove that behaviour. Why did she cheat? Did she even consider it cheating? And what had she done or was she going to do to ensure that it wouldn't happen again? Hindsight is 20/20.

 

In the end I don't know if she cheated on me, but I do recognize the impact her confession had on my regard towards her.

 

If your girlfriend has not recognized that her behaviour is wrong - and I mean felt genuine remorse and empathy for the hurt that she has caused - then she will not change. And the same will happen to you no matter how much she might claim that "this time is different".

 

My understanding is that people must go through great lengths and pain in order to truly reform. It's not an easy, simple, straightforward process. It takes time, guidance, dedication, courage and perseverance.

 

Her honesty about her past dishonesty does not excuse her behaviour. She's made it clear that she's untrustworthy. For some reason there are those who believe that being up front about their sins somehow absolves them of them.

[Assasda]

I think OP just has insecurities in himself.

He thinks he's not good enough for this woman and thinks he might not "hold on" to her.

 

Either that, or he gave her the halo, and she took off the halo and showed him that she was a real human being and he doesnt like that.

He wants to live in a fantasy.

 

Beautiful women have sex all the time, just like me. If you dont want to accept that and move on you probably dont deserve the woman.

You should let her go, so, someone stronger can get with her

[Natsu21]

About 4 months into my relationship my ex revealed to be - unintentionally - that she had cheated on her previous partner.

 

The relationship lasted another 4 months, but from that point on the relationship began to unravel.

 

I should have been more up front with her and asked her what drove that behaviour. Why did she cheat? Did she even consider it cheating? And what had she done or was she going to do to ensure that it wouldn't happen again? Hindsight is 20/20.

 

In the end I don't know if she cheated on me, but I do recognize the impact her confession had on my regard towards her.

 

If your girlfriend has not recognized that her behaviour is wrong - and I mean felt genuine remorse and empathy for the hurt that she has caused - then she will not change. And the same will happen to you no matter how much she might claim that "this time is different".

 

My understanding is that people must go through great lengths and pain in order to truly reform. It's not an easy, simple, straightforward process. It takes time, guidance, dedication, courage and perseverance.

 

Her honesty about her past dishonesty does not excuse her behaviour. She's made it clear that she's untrustworthy. For some reason there are those who believe that being up front about their sins somehow absolves them of them.

 

 

The fact that she did all of this after she divorced her husband shows that in her mind, she was trying to get over him.

 

She said to me that she doesn't want to "be with him" anymore, but when I do talk to her, she's always concerned about her and him not talking.

 

^Also a concern. There are signs that she still has feelings for her ex-husband, and they share two children together. She has a strong distaste for her ex-husband's girlfriend(another bad sign)

 

And apparently she still talks to(but claims casually) guys she was involved with.

 

A conversation we had went like this.

 

Me: So what would you want if we didn't work out in the future?

Her: I'd hope we'd be best friends. Even if we don't work out I'd love for us to still be close. I'd support you and care about you.

Me: While you're banging other guys?

Her: Well, I could eventually find someone else I like.

Me: Yeah, so you'd be totally okay if I decide never to contact you after you break up with me?

Her: No I wouldn't. In fact, why would you even suggest that? Throwing away a great friendship? How is that fair?

Me: Yeah? How is keeping the guy you like on a leash on a "friendship" while you focus all of your passionate energy on someone else?

Her: Why can't we be friends?

Me: Once you tell a guy you're not good enough romantically, he can choose to stick around or not. If he's not good enough to be with you, a friendship shouldn't be a consolation prize he "has" to accept. The real world doesn't work that way.

Her: It's worked for a few of my exes.

Me: How many of them did you dump?

Her: All but one.

Me: How many have tried to get with you in the future?

Her: All of them. The one I dumped I mostly ignore cause he's annoying.

Me: I rest my case.

 

 

^That was two months ago on facebook.

 

What you guys think?

[Sunfire73]

You have to look at the bigger picture. Yes she was honest, but in trying to be one, you discovered more about her. And this is part of dating. Getting to know someone better. Doesn't mean you'll just accept her for what she is, you don't know the person yet. You find out what her values are, goals and check if it's compatible with yours. People get attached quickly to their dates and it's hard to be objective when you see major flaws.

[Natsu21]

I think OP just has insecurities in himself.

He thinks he's not good enough for this woman and thinks he might not "hold on" to her.

 

Either that, or he gave her the halo, and she took off the halo and showed him that she was a real human being and he doesnt like that.

He wants to live in a fantasy.

 

Beautiful women have sex all the time, just like me. If you dont want to accept that and move on you probably dont deserve the woman.

You should let her go, so, someone stronger can get with her

 

As a guy, I wanna interject this.

 

EVERYONE has sex....I don't care if she screwed the pope, the president, the vice president, or the president's wife.

 

Every person who has dated someone expects highly of them...and though we made mistakes in the past, if someone's mistakes in the past show a PATTERN, it's a signal that goes off.

 

Suppose, for instance, you dated this hot guy, and later on down the line, he revealed to you that he's been in multiple affairs when he was married.

 

Unless you're outright desperate, you won't just overlook that. You'll think and consider it, because it will bother you.

 

You're right, people(not just beautiful) have sex all the time, but if you are pursuing a relationship, there are requirements to the other person that you must honor. And when someone reveals they aren't the way you desire them to be in the regards of loyalty in relationships, it's a red flag.

 

Sure, how would you like for your man to cheat on you? Then again, you might be one of those women who doesn't care.

 

Not everyone is like you, Assada. Deal with it.

[Quiet Storm]

You are uneasy because her actions are a reflection of her character.

 

Honesty is the best policy if you are looking for a genuine and intimate connection.

 

Ignorance may be bliss, but at what price does it come? Information that is important and relevant to you is best discovered early, so that you can determine compatibility.

 

Her actions bother you. Instead of denying it or wishing it away, accept that she isn't the girl for you. Consistently choosing men that are taken, and being OK with that indicates some issues. This doesn't mean the issues cannot be overcome, but I think it would require much introspection and insight into her own behavior. My guess is that she has low self worth and gets validation and satisfaction when a taken man "risks" his relationship to be with her. Whereas emotionally healthy women would feel disrespected or even disgusted, thinking "Why do you think I'd participate in this?", she feels flattered and even empowered "I must be special if he's willing to cheat with me".

 

With a person like this, you can't be confident that she won't seek out the attention of other men when she feels down. It also shows she doesn't value honesty or commitment, and is not concerned with hurting others. Of course it was the guys responsibility to protect and honor his relationship, but her willingness to participate in this scenario multiple times shows a clear lack empathy OR detachment (which means she is capable of empathy, but has learned to block out negative feelings like shame or guilt).

Edited August 19, 2014 by Quiet Storm

[Dork Vader]

Okay so yeah what you are seeing is a major red flag.

 

 

I've been in similar situations... Here is my general opinion.. You can continue to date her and see if things are different. But you need to do so with a bit of caution.

 

 

One similar situation I had.. Woman had inappropriate conversations with her best friends husband. Claimed the best friend was okay with it and all this other stuff. The simple truth is it's not respecting her loved ones relationships.

 

 

Same woman slept with her brothers best friend. Again not respecting her loved ones relationships.

 

 

There were a few other examples of this.. It all points to one general thing they do NOT respect their friends and families relationships whether it is friendship, coworker, or what ever..

 

 

If they can NOT even respect those relationship. They surely wont respect yours. It says a lot on numerous levels.

 

 

If you want to continue getting to know her (which is sounds like you do) then do so. But you have to look for real changes in HER that show she is a different person today. Which I highly doubt.. I was a huge Douchebag from 18-25.. It took nearly 4 years of me not dating and really looking at things honestly to change my self..

[Quiet Storm]

I think OP just has insecurities in himself.

He thinks he's not good enough for this woman and thinks he might not "hold on" to her.

 

Either that, or he gave her the halo, and she took off the halo and showed him that she was a real human being and he doesnt like that.

He wants to live in a fantasy.

 

Beautiful women have sex all the time, just like me. If you dont want to accept that and move on you probably dont deserve the woman.

You should let her go, so, someone stronger can get with her

 

Beautiful women do have sex all the time and have no problems finding single men, so why pick taken ones? The sex isn't the problem, its her choice of men.

 

Why is it insecure to want a woman that values commitment and honesty? In my opinion, it would be more insecure for him to lower his standards and accept less than what he feels he deserves. Strength is when you stand by your beliefs and know your value as a person. Its not accepting and ignoring character flaws just because you don't want to be alone.

[OwMyEyeball]

I think OP just has insecurities in himself.

He thinks he's not good enough for this woman and thinks he might not "hold on" to her.

 

Either that, or he gave her the halo, and she took off the halo and showed him that she was a real human being and he doesnt like that.

He wants to live in a fantasy.

 

Beautiful women have sex all the time, just like me. If you dont want to accept that and move on you probably dont deserve the woman.

You should let her go, so, someone stronger can get with her

You're mistaking your drive to bang with his intention to get involved in a relationship.

 

If his interests were purely driven by sex and he wasn't looking to invest emotionally then I wouldn't see an issue either.

[Natsu21]

Beautiful women do have sex all the time and have no problems finding single men, so why pick taken ones? The sex isn't the problem, its her choice of men.

 

Why is it insecure to want a woman that values commitment and honesty? In my opinion, it would be more insecure for him to lower his standards and accept less than what he feels he deserves. Strength is when you stand by your beliefs and know your value as a person. Its not accepting and ignoring character flaws just because you don't want to be alone.

 

I feel Assada's really insecure for a few reasons.

 

1. She HAD to state she was beautiful. No matter how many men who tried to get in your pants tells you you are beautiful, it doesn't make it fact. That sounded like you were trying to convince yourself you have worth.

 

2. I do have some esteem issues, but who doesn't? At least I admit it.

 

3. So if you aren't beautiful, you won't have sex? That sounds like something a narcissist would say, and if you really were that beautiful...

 

you wouldn't be on loveshack.

 

Then again, you could be a troll, lol.

[Natsu21]

You're mistaking your drive to bang with his intention to get involved in a relationship.

 

If his interests were purely driven by sex and he wasn't looking to invest emotionally then I wouldn't see an issue either.

 

Yeah, I actually LIKE this girl.

[54JA]

 

 

There were a few other examples of this.. It all points to one general thing they do NOT respect their friends and families relationships whether it is friendship, coworker, or what ever..

 

 

If they can NOT even respect those relationship. They surely wont respect yours. It says a lot on numerous levels.

 

 

 

Like Dork Vader (hahaha) says, her lack of respect for boundaries is a huge red flag. I am glad that you are taking the time to pause and re-evaluate. I know it's frustrating because you like her. But if you are looking for a stable LTR, you can't ignore this red flag. I do believe that people can change, but like someone here said, change takes time. If all of these happened long time ago, I would not worry too much about them, but they happened so recently.

 

This clearly bothers you. You might also want to consider the potential extent to which this piece of knowledge will impact your stress level in the future with her. Personally, I don't have it in me not to let it bother me and pester my SO. I suspect that i will be suspicious of him if I were you. But each person is different in their level of tolerance for certain things. If you can tolerate/have it in you not to let it get to you, by all means, go for it. But also, there is no shame in saying this is more than I can handle. I suspect most normal people can't either.

[Dork Vader]

I think OP just has insecurities in himself.

He thinks he's not good enough for this woman and thinks he might not "hold on" to her.

 

Either that, or he gave her the halo, and she took off the halo and showed him that she was a real human being and he doesnt like that.

He wants to live in a fantasy.

 

Beautiful women have sex all the time, just like me. If you dont want to accept that and move on you probably dont deserve the woman.

You should let her go, so, someone stronger can get with her

 

 

 

Being a human and being a bad a person are two entirely different things. We all have the drive to have sex.. It does not matter if we are hot, average or below average... What does matter is who we chose..

 

 

It's called having respect for other peoples relationships. I'm perfectly capable of doing a ton of immoral things that could satisfy me short term in numerous ways.. But I do not do those things because I believe it is WRONG. Because I have morals and self control.

 

 

I could easily understand if she made ONE mistake. But so many? It begs the question of where does this woman (and you) draw the line..

 

 

The difference between a person who is morally bankrupt and a human who's made some mistakes is this.. The Human actually feels empathy and regret for their poor choices and they do NOT commit them again. The morally bankrupt just continue a long burning bridges as they go. They eventually end up all by themselves with no one.

[ascendotum]

Should I give her a chance? Do people like that change?

 

That's what I'm questioning.

 

Mate that's up to you and your moral code of conduct and you're willingness to give her a go and take a chance. How hard is it to find another girl that has what she has without the sketchy past?

Most people would like to know this information and make an informed decision. If you break up over this,then there is a very good chance she wont be so honest with the next potential bf which could have been you if there was a guy before you who didn't that aspect of her past.

 

She is vindictive but for me that would not be a negative. I believe in revenge and really it wont be a problem if you don't **** her over. If you cheat and then she sleeps with one of your friends, well don't go crying its not fair. If she had impulse revenge cheated and it was over a fight they had had, then that's a different story.

 

As for the number of relationships with taken men, I personally find that dodgy too. She has flexible morals when it comes to cheating even though she was single at those times. Does not mean they will definitely cheat when in a relationship but imo they would be a riskier bet if you wanted a LTR with them.

[mightycpa]

Yeah, I actually LIKE this girl.

 

you do realize you started out this thread with the words "Hypothetical Question", right?

 

Interesting, given the post is about honesty. What gives?