hotpotato Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Sure, some prisoners are manipulative, just like many people are. But I would think that a lot of prisoners aren't sending flowers, jewelry etc so much to manipulate, but because they're competing with men who aren't in prison, and who are available for a full relationship. They're probably, for lack of a better term, overcompensating a bit, and giving women additional reasons to wait for them and stay with them and consider something longterm VS moving on (not that some women don't accept the gifts AND date other men). That may be what's missing in guys in the free world, they don't feel like they are competing with other men. And maybe that romance stuff isn't really expected either. Still, it's a shame that a prisoner will send a dozen roses but a free man won't. I'm just shaking my head here...
Woggle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) There are some seriously naive people if they believe that prisoners are actually sincere in how they con women. No offense but people who buy into that are ones who get conned by pyramid schemes because they have no street smarts. These men are as sincere to women as gold diggers are to men. I have been around people in the life for a good portion of my life and they charm women to do their dirty work and take the fall for them. You start a relationship with them and the next thing you know you are smuggling drugs inside for them. I have even seen women take the rap for these guys because they are so in love. Edited August 25, 2014 by Woggle 2
Imported Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Still, it's a shame that a prisoner will send a dozen roses but a free man won't. I'm just shaking my head here... You're comparing apples to oranges. Guys that are free that don't send/bring flowers to guys in prison that do. Why not compare them to guys that are free that do send/bring flowers.....because we exist. Ask flowers.com . Do you really think their bussiness is only from men in prison? I send/bring flowers. And chocolate! Box....checked! That was so easy.
Woggle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 A free sends this stuff to the same woman and he is a creep who is stalking her.
thefooloftheyear Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Well, of coyrse, some of them are manipulative. Thats how a lot of people are regardless of whether or not they are incarcerated. Sime are honest, some are not. Thats just people. Sometimes they get out and marry the womsn they are supposedly conning. Sometimes they dont. Think about it...... Even if they were absolute Knights in Shining Armor to you-or any other woman....Would it still be OK then if they were robbing a liqour store to pay for those roses and candy?? Makes no sense...but what the hell do I know? TFY
Woggle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 This reminds me of the time a girl I worked with when I was in my early 20s was dating a guy who robbed banks and she was stashing his take from one of the jobs at her house in case his place got raided. Nobody could talk any sense into her.
hotpotato Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 My point was never about if prisoners are normal people. I'm actually a mentor in a prison education program at a minimum security prison through my university. I don't go around with an idea that prisoners are subhuman monsters or even that all prisoners are guilty of what they've been convicted of. I am very much aware that many prisoners are normal people, and have had two family members who were imprisoned before, likewise some prisoners are sick and psychologically damaged, like those who serially kill. The post I responded to was from someone claiming that women like jerks because look at all the serial killers who get women and women write to them and are in love with them. My point wasn't about if prisoners in general are normal or nice or romantic...but that women who will choose to write to and be in love with KNOWN SERIAL KILLERS aren't operating in a normal and emotionally or mentally healthy way. Well, the thing about prison is that being a serial killer isn't considered being the lowest of the low, those would be child molesters. A lot of women write serial killers or murderers. A lot of people are coming from the perspective of not being judgmental about their crime. The shows I brought up are not reality shows, but tv documentaries. Reality shows focus on drama, tv documentary series t least try for a more balanced outlook. The shows weren't dramatic, but focused on the whole process of their visits and the back story as to how and why these women chose this. These women were indeed "sensitive" and willing to understand these serial killers and such...but that sensitivity spoke to a problem. In the documentary series I was watching these men were lifers. A few of the women married to them were with them before their incarceration then you had another number who wrote to them, fell in love and visited them and then married them behind bars. What they say of their lives, what you see of their lives were that they were lonely and reached out to men behind bars or their histories showed they had a pattern of poor relationship choices. We're gonna have to disagree that women who specifically seek out men doing time as romantic partners don't have some issues going on, especially those seeking out serial killers. If most people go to OkCuipid to find dates and you go to PrisonFriends.Com....what's driving that?? I was telling the poster that it is NOT the majority of women who are gonna seek out incarcerated men or serial killers to date so his theory is off and rather it's a very specific subset of women who will. TV documentaries also look for drama. It's still entertainment, and the more drama, the more entertaining, the more views. Besides, if these women are so damaged, no other guy should want to date them anyway. They can just go find someone else who isn't damaged. IA that women who write prisoners specifically for love is a very specific group on women. That being said, I can get why some women are attracted to prisoners. Many prisoners are tall, strong, in shape, and handsome unlike a lot of free dudes. There are plenty of good looking, in shape guys on the outside but many of them are gay. A lot of guys come out of prison looking young of diesel. Of course, the latter doesn't pertain to lifers, but there you go, there's the appeal of many men who are incarcerated. What makes an incarcerated man sexy in the same thing as what makes Green berets sexy-being HOT, being strong, decisive risk takers. Here is the issue Women got strong, but men didn't. I truly believe a lot of weirdness going on in the dating world is because of that fact.
hotpotato Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 There are some seriously naive people if they believe that prisoners are actually sincere in how they con women. No offense but people who buy into that are ones who get conned by pyramid schemes because they have no street smarts. These men are as sincere to women as gold diggers are to men. I have been around people in the life for a good portion of my life and they charm women to do their dirty work and take the fall for them. You start a relationship with them and the next thing you know you are smuggling drugs inside for them. I have even seen women take the rap for these guys because they are so in love. ' That happens, but it's not everybody. I thought it was crazy,too, but some women have married them and they are happy. I'm not into dating a man while he's incarcerated, but whatever. It's their prerogative, I guess. *shrug* These aren't dumb women either, plenty of them are educated and what not.
pteromom Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 I think all women crave some sort of drama in their lives whether they're in their 20s 30s 40s makes no difference. If things are too perfect people get bored so I guess it could go both ways in the end. I want peace and joy more than anything else. I hate arguing and I hate drama. I like for issues to be resolved easily and painlessly so I can go back to laughing. Some people equate drama with passion though. They like the roller coaster than comes with yelling and screaming and then making up with hot desperate sex. No, not all women are like that. But some are. Some men too. 4
Woggle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 ' That happens, but it's not everybody. I thought it was crazy,too, but some women have married them and they are happy. I'm not into dating a man while he's incarcerated, but whatever. It's their prerogative, I guess. *shrug* These aren't dumb women either, plenty of them are educated and what not. I have learned that a lot of educated people have no common sense whatsoever. The average cult member is very educated as well which means despite all that schooling some are still gullible fools. Books and a classroom will only teach you a small part of how to deal with life. 3
thefooloftheyear Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Well, the thing about prison is that being a serial killer isn't considered being the lowest of the low, those would be child molesters. A lot of women write serial killers or murderers. A lot of people are coming from the perspective of not being judgmental about their crime. TV documentaries also look for drama. It's still entertainment, and the more drama, the more entertaining, the more views. Besides, if these women are so damaged, no other guy should want to date them anyway. They can just go find someone else who isn't damaged. IA that women who write prisoners specifically for love is a very specific group on women. That being said, I can get why some women are attracted to prisoners. Many prisoners are tall, strong, in shape, and handsome unlike a lot of free dudes. There are plenty of good looking, in shape guys on the outside but many of them are gay. A lot of guys come out of prison looking young of diesel. Of course, the latter doesn't pertain to lifers, but there you go, there's the appeal of many men who are incarcerated. What makes an incarcerated man sexy in the same thing as what makes Green berets sexy-being HOT, being strong, decisive risk takers. Here is the issue Women got strong, but men didn't. I truly believe a lot of weirdness going on in the dating world is because of that fact. Wrong...those guys aint shyt....They aren't strong...They are a bunch of pussies that prey on weak people(mostly women)....They are the furthest thing in what it takes to be a strong man or a decisive risk taker.. A strong man is one that goes out every day and breaks his ass for his family and the people that count on him...A "decisive risk taker" is an entrepreneur..that puts up all of HIS hard earned money into making a business idea work... It doesnt take brains or strength to snatch some grandmothers purse or rape a 16 year old girl... wise up...sheesh... Watch this video..... TFY Edited August 25, 2014 by thefooloftheyear 3
Woggle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 The real strong and smart criminals are the ones who know how to avoid prison. I know a guy who has been selling weed for close to twenty years and has never been caught once. The guy looks and acts like a nerd. I know guys that rob banks that act like Dilbert during the day. The ones in prison doing petty time are usually just wannable thugs who prey on weak people and would cry if ever faced with real tough guys.
hotpotato Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Think about it...... Even if they were absolute Knights in Shining Armor to you-or any other woman....Would it still be OK then if they were robbing a liqour store to pay for those roses and candy?? Makes no sense...but what the hell do I know? TFY Lol to be honest I actually dated a guy who was incarcerated for several years. Aggravated assault. He was a very nice guy, and I had less problems with him than I had with so called nice guys. I made the mistake of trying to date him when he was fresh out of prison. He ended up going to a half way house 3 hours away so that was the end. He had issues finding a job so he went back to his old habits. Nowadays, if I went that route, I'd pick someone who was already standing on his own two feet. If they are sending flowers while they are incarcerated, it's probably not money from a bank heist. But oh yeah, he was great aside from being a jailbird. Now that I think it about it, it's even more depressing lol. He cooked me dinner, took me places, he was all around fun, introduced me to his parents, the whole 9.
hotpotato Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Wrong...those guys aint shyt....They aren't strong...They are a bunch of pussies that prey on weak people(mostly women)....They are the furthest thing in what it takes to be a strong man or a decisive risk taker.. A strong man is one that goes out every day and breaks his ass for his family and the people that count on him...A "decisive risk taker" is an entrepreneur..that puts up all of HIS hard earned money into making a business idea work... It doesnt take brains or strength to snatch some grandmothers purse or rape a 16 year old girl... wise up...sheesh... Watch this video..... TFY oK, tfy.
Michelle ma Belle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 I want peace and joy more than anything else. I hate arguing and I hate drama. I like for issues to be resolved easily and painlessly so I can go back to laughing. Some people equate drama with passion though. They like the roller coaster than comes with yelling and screaming and then making up with hot desperate sex. No, not all women are like that. But some are. Some men too. BINGO!!! I'm with pteromom on this one. Over the years I've distanced myself from situations AND people who bring on too much drama. I have no tolerance for it especially at this age and I'm not afraid to cut people out of my life if I feel it's toxic to my well being or my family's well being. And pteromom is absolutely correct that some people equate drama with passion if only for the hot make-up sex afterward. I've met them both male and female. Personally I don't get it but to each their own. If it works for BOTH of them then congrats to them on finding their match I guess Drama goes both ways. Men can be just as dramatic as women. Oh Lordy. 1
serial muse Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) I don't know why these things always devolve into discussions of prisoners and the women who love them. Is that really on topic? Anyway, as I said earlier, I think the issue that the OP should consider is not whether/why women (of whatever age) might like jerks, but why men might like them. Specifically, why he might. Even more specifically, why he stuck with this particular woman who is clearly a drama factory, and yet is focused only on dissecting her poor choices, not his own! That's more likely to be helpful to him. This whole "women be loving prisoners cuz they're morons" thing is a big fat red herring, and IMO you all aren't doing him any favors by indulging him in it. Edited August 25, 2014 by serial muse 3
Michelle ma Belle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Is it really necessary to have have fights and arguments once you reach a certain age and maturity? Should I have expected games to be played on her end? Am I just being too naive because I haven't been in many relationships and had not been in one for a while? The relationship only lasted 5 months and she caused a lot of drama the last few weeks. Is it that she just couldn't handle a "nice guy" because she hadn't been around one in her only 2 relationships? To answer your original question; it is NOT necessary to have fights or arguments with advanced age. In fact, the fighting and arguing should be LESS given wisdom and tolerance and experience. I think you hit the nail on the head that some women, particularly if they have a trail of bad boyfriends, that is what they come to know and expect and anything other than that seems frightening. I know that seems odd but that's part of the mentality for some especially if they aren't very self-aware. As someone already said, consider yourself lucky.
hotpotato Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 oK, tfy. Oh and by the way, I knew an excon who came out and started his own business. He's doing well for himself, last I heard. Not everyone who is or has been incarcerated is scum of the earth looking to manipulate women in some way. Not everyone changes, but some people do. Meanwhile, there are plenty of men on the outside even supposedly nice guys who will manipulate or flat out lie to women to get SEX, money, attention or what have you. People manipulate people, and some of them are behind bars and some of them are not.
Taramere Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Besides, if these women are so damaged, no other guy should want to date them anyway. They can just go find someone else who isn't damaged. Right. I suspect that to some extent this might be part of the pull of prisoners for some women. And delinquency in general. Society is often keen to make outsiders of people. It can strengthen people's sense of belonging, and of being part of a community to see that other people are on the outside. That there's a delinquent society that they can feel superior too. And I suppose it's when people feel that sense of rejection from society that they're pulled towards the dark side. That can apply to men and women alike. During the witch trials, women were particularly likely to be on trial because they were regarded as fundamentally bad. Morally inferior to men. To this day a lot of that thinking prevails. Which is part of what makes an outlaw attractive. It doesn't have to be a prisoner...it just has to be somebody who's on the outskirts of society. I mean part of what made Titanic a big favourite with a lot of young girls and women was the notion of this woman who couldn't quite fit into the society she was supposed to be part of finding the part of herself that she was under pressure to repress in this poverty stricken artist on board the ship. Somebody who accepted and even enjoyed all the aspects of her that her society pursed its lips about. Of course, the dark side of a woman being drawn towards delinquency is that she could well end up being exploited. Again, both men and women are vulnerable to that. Children are vulnerable to it. The dodgiest people in life have long preyed on those who feel isolated and marginalised, by offering them a sense of acceptance....but the price for that sense of acceptance (which might only be temporary in any event) is very high. Do all prisoners fall into that category of exploitative abusers? I've dealt with juvenile delinquents in the past in social work - then I switched to law, and my first job was in a criminal law firm. The picture being portrayed by a couple of guys here of prisoners tending to be these Machiavellian characters who charm women into doing their bidding...well, yes - when I worked in that firm I certainly encountered a few who were pretty slimey and clearly saw themselves in that light. However there were plenty of others who were addicts with very poor impulse control and low intelligence. Or adult versions of the children I'd worked with in the past. People who grew up marginalised, would probably never be accepted by mainstream society even if they tried - and who just followed the crowd they knew, had grown up with and felt accepted by. People who were, as we like to put it on this board, damaged or broken in childhood...and who cared more about just finding acceptance wherever they could than they did about striving to follow the rules of a society that is pretty much always going to think they're crap. That's not an excuse for them, it's just a description of their reality. The notion that they're all these very cunning, psychopathic lady-magnets is all very glamorous and it makes for good storylines in tv programmes, but from what I've seen, the reality is a lot more mundane. Then again, I live in a provincial Scottish town. We're not really talking about the Sopranos in this neck of the woods. Edited August 25, 2014 by Taramere 2
preraph Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 OK, I'm going to point out the Catch 22 here. You're asking if women are still more attracted to jerks, but then you painted this woman as a jerk and yourself as a nice guy -- so that makes you the guy who is attracted to jerks, doesn't it? So whatever your reason for taking up with that jerk is probably a similar reason why women take up with their jerks. 3
Sunfire73 Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Drama should subside with age. I used to be married to a jerk, but as I matured, can no longer take it and divorced. I know that i can't stand jerks and there is no place in my life for that. So I sought someone who is more mentally and emotionally stable. It's not that we don't have any less stresses, but we both have a better handle on it. We both have the same core values and goals, and it starts there. We know what are the things that we can let go, and things that we need to talk about. Sometimes we differ, but we listen to each other and respect our differences.
thefooloftheyear Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Dopes, losers, drug/alcohol abusers, convicts, etc....will always find a way to dupe dumb and naive women...And thank God for them there are no shortage of these types of women willing to carry their sorry asses.. Its a survival tactic they have honed through their years...They cant do it legitimately.. TFY
SpiralOut Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Maybe she just meant that you weren't assertive enough. I don't want a jerk, but I don't want a guy who is totally passive and never says what he thinks, either. I don't know if that might be the case or not for you but that's what comes to mind when I read your post.
Woggle Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 There are a lot of people that do time and turn their lives around and I wish them the best. People deserve a second chance but career criminals are very good at charming women. There are some men locked up for hurting and even killing women that still get a ton of love letters. I don't this is the majority of women though. It's also true that men like jerks as well. I have never known a man eater that struggled with men. In this backwards society we live in it seems that the more awful a person you are the more attractive you are to the opposite sex.
Missy0724 Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 The fact is, you just never know what is going behind "closed doors" or in people's lives, minds, hearts. My ex H was raised a strict Catholic, private schools, very well educated, lots of friends, great career, seemed to be the "perfect guy" by American, typical standards. That is what I saw, and believed at the young, naive age of 22! So I married him, we had three kids together. He was faithful, never cheated on me. But what he did do, was emotional abuse. He ignored me, he was passive aggressive, he sucked at money management, would buy big ticket items without telling me, was sneaky about things, never helped me with anything around the house, ask, "what can I do to help you, honey?" while he watched me slave away, chasing three active boys around, do all the housework, work two jobs, cook home made meals every night bc our son had severe allergies. Never helped with the calendar, vacation planning, saving for college for the kids, or our retirement. Made six figures, but would not put into retirement! We fought about it all the time. And he just ignored me, never made an effort to compromise, change, help me more, etc. Crazy. Selfish person, who wanted control over "his money". I divorced him. Didn't matter how much money he made, what a "christian" he was, that he was well educated from Ivy L schools. He was SO disrespectful to me, to his own children. He made me FEEL LIKE ****. So, I had no respect for him. So no respect for me = no love. It was over after 20 years. So sad. So...you never know...So many people walking around, among us. You think they are great, moral people. Maybe because they haven't robbed a bank or some petty crime. But how they treat people is SO much more damaging. He has damaged me and his three sons, for the rest of our lives. 4
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