DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I just finished reading this book called "Stumbling in the Dark". Interesting book about the dynamics of men/women. Basically in a nutshell it tells you to be detached about the outcome of dating and that you should tell women up front that its ok if they reject. That it wont be a problem. This got me to wondering though, how direct do women really want men to be? I have read repeatedly that women need to hear that you desire them. That you should be direct with them about your desires (not being crass not withstanding) and that men have been coached over the years to cloak their desires from women. The cloaking is about power, that if women know you want them it puts the power in their hands. I have never really believed that as I just assumed its more basic, men want women, women are a finite resource so by definition they are in control. LOL. Do women really want to hear from men directly that we desire them? That we want to be with them? From a guy's perspective, there is no consensus about how to approach/desire/date/confess/speak to women. We've been doing it for thousands of years and we still don't have it down the way they want it, and the women are also divided on what they say they want versus what they really want... typical men and women! I'd say there's generally two schools of thought, of which countless blogs and books have been written on what to "really" do: 1. Man pursues woman. This is the "traditional" view. Man likes woman, man asks woman out, man pays for dinner, is chivalrous, and so on. He's forward and direct that he's courting her and trying to take things to the next level. The man remains in control as he tries to woo her. He continues this until she falls for him or tells him to stop. I find the women who like this are those who describe themselves as "hopeless romantics" or want to see themselves fall for a "traditional" relationship... they've had a&& hole boyfriends and they want someone who cares about them for a change. 2. Man feigns ignorance/coldness. This is the "new" view that I'd say most "pick up artists" profess. The man doesn't do anything special... he's mysterious, sometimes has the bad boy image, and doesn't seem to care whether the woman likes him or not. This one is interesting because the power dynamic is shifted: the woman feels like she has the power, and the ball is in her court to make the moves or push the guy to the next level, yet it's the guy's facade that's causing her to behave this way. The women who fall for this seem to be those who are okay with one-night stands or short-term relationships, mostly because they (the women) get sick of trying to pursue a guy while he appears aloof/indifferent. What does everyone think? Pretty good summary?
DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 And women are not a resource. Get over yourself. The market and "supply and demand" theories are very useful in dating and relationships. 1
DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I will give an example of what I am talking about - say a guy was flirting with you back and forth. This is not a total stranger, but a guy you know. What if he told you how much he desired you and wanted to be with you? That you click with her on many levels (mental, emotional physical). Too strong? Would it scare her? The reason I am asking is that a woman I am very friendly with gave me a very graphic description of her body today in a bikini. I didn't know really what to say as men have been taught to mask their desires (and I do want her in a huge way). 1. Hard to tell. See my post above and act accordingly. 2. If she's describing her body in a bikini, take her to the beach! LOL
DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Yes, seriously. If I dated a guy who got too forward too quickly, I'd be way turned off. While in a relationship it's different. He can be forward and direct all he wants. But during the dating phase? No. Not even. Sets a bad tone IMO The big question here is what's too forward and what's acceptable. 1
BlueIris Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Get over yourself. The market and "supply and demand" theories are very useful in dating and relationships. I prefer that people be direct about how they think and feel. If I'm dating someone who views interpersonal relationships as transactions, and the dating process as a marketing strategy to make a sale or purchase, of course I want to know that. That way I can make my own informed decisions. The mindset is going to be revealed eventually if we become a couple. I'm very direct about my desires and how I feel about someone I'm dating. Some men don't like it and so it's best that we not keep dating. It would annoy him eventually any way. Edited August 10, 2014 by BlueIris
DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I prefer that people be direct about how they think and feel. If I'm dating someone who views interpersonal relationships as transactions, and the dating process as a marketing strategy to make a sale or purchase, of course I want to know that. That way I can make my own informed decisions. The mindset is going to be revealed eventually if we become a couple. I'm very direct about my desires and how I feel about someone I'm dating. Some men don't like it and so it's best that we not keep dating. It would annoy him eventually any way. But relationships are transactions. They are give and take. They are giving something to receive something. There are more women in this world than men, meaning women are the ones who control access (i.e. supply). I get that this is a cold, emotionless way of looking at it, but it's true.
BlueIris Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 But relationships are transactions. They are give and take. They are giving something to receive something. There are more women in this world than men, meaning women are the ones who control access (i.e. supply). I get that this is a cold, emotionless way of looking at it, but it's true. You see it that way. I don't. People have different viewpoints. And that's why conversation is so important in deciding whether two people are a good match. On my first few dates with someone, I listen a lot. I want to know who he is inside, how he views relationship and life. Heck, I try to get them on the golf course asap, since golf reveals personality pretty quickly. So, I vote for directness and candor. Analogize it to men saying that they want women to not wear padded bras, hair extensions, spanx, fake eyelashes, lots of make-up. People want to know how and who someone really is. 1
MoreCoffee Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Show me a male who is waiting sixty days for a kiss and I'll show you a guy who has found someone to put out out while you're holding out. 3
isisisweeping Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I prefer absolute openness for where I stand, and tend to show the same back. But, I've always been in relationships and am learning I am just terrible at dating these days. Eep. Though there are two guys now that have surged ahead of the rest mainly with clear, consistent, spoken interest. I mean, don't start talking about sexual stuff prematurely, because that will creep me out before I'm actually considering having sex with you and I don't in three dates or whatever that stupid rule floated here is. But, interest.
somedude81 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Show me a male who is waiting sixty days for a kiss and I'll show you a guy who has found someone to put out out while you're holding out. Ha, nobody is waiting 60 days for a kiss. 1
somedude81 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Based on what I'm seeing on how women act, it really seems best to ignore what they say and look at what they do. Women like it when a guy is really into them. Try to kiss her early, have sex as soon as you can and then you'll sweep her off her feet.
CrystalCastles Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I'm not understanding. He showed ALOT of restraint. He did not kiss me on the first date. He did not push for sex or make any innuendos. He did not get overly physical with me which would've made me uncomfortable. He happily waited when I said I wanted to wait for sex. I've made men wait 2 months just for a KISS. Being direct and forward with physical or sexual desires will send me into hermitcrab status. I don't think somedude was trying to offend you- he just didn't know! I'm like this too. I've had guys be way too forward- sexting after the first date, heavy makeout session with ass-grabbing on first/second date. Those guys were the ones who kind of "went for it". It made me feel like a sex object and turned me off physical affection because I didn't find such disrespectful displays to be positive. So I made my boyfriend wait 6 dates. Not to punish him for other guys, but it took me some time to warm up to the idea that kissing can be done gently, lovingly and with respect to me. 1
CrystalCastles Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Based on what I'm seeing on how women act, it really seems best to ignore what they say and look at what they do. Not this girl. Kissing and having sex asap is the thing that will send me running for the hills, lol! 1
chimpanA-2-chimpanZ Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) I completely agree that making out on the first date almost always feels trashy. As much as people like using the word "transactional" (PS: barf) it's not as simple as "insert chocolate, receive sex". I don't want to kiss him until I feel reasonably comfortable. This usually takes two or three dates for me unless I already know him well. I also don't want to hear about your desires until we're in/on our way to the bedroom. I'm a straightforward, plain-talking, confident woman but I'm also wholly submissive in bed, so if he wants to do it and I'm physically capable of doing it then it's almost certainly going to happen. The only time I turn down a man's desire is when I don't feel well enough to do it, and in that case I find something else to do instead. The exception is if you have a very unusual fetish that you need your partner to indulge. I think that nowadays there are enough kink websites that like-minded people can find each other so it shouldn't be an issue. However, if you absolutely positively cannot get off unless your partner is dressed like Wonder Woman, you should probably be very clear about that in the beginning. Once we're a couple I like hearing about your desires anytime, especially since I enjoy dirty talking. Even a slightly suggestive text message is nice. Edited August 10, 2014 by chimpanA-2-chimpanZ
ThaWholigan Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 From a young man's perspective, it depends on the girl. I've dated a girl who preferred a lot of banter and innuendo rather than straight-forward seduction (didn't sleep with her, but understood that dynamic fairly early on). I've also dated a girl that slept with me the minute I made a move - on the first date. It's going to differ massively depending not only on who you date, but how you prefer to go about your dating life and how you express your desires. Do YOU prefer being straight-forward? Or do you like to play with the stew a little while before you get down to the meat and potatoes? Maybe somewhere inbetween? 2
sillyanswer Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 From a young man's perspective, it depends on the girl. From what I've seen so far this holds true for the next couple of decades, too. 1
DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Ive waited 60 days because she wanted to go slow. During the whole time she was having sex with another guy. Had no idea.
smackie9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 This is why I'll always fail at relationships with women. can't play the mating dance. It can work if you have a good dance partner that has np taking the lead.
smackie9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Women tell me to wait but I'm just a placeholder. Where the hell do you find these women?
fred123 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I'm not understanding. He showed ALOT of restraint. He did not kiss me on the first date. He did not push for sex or make any innuendos. He did not get overly physical with me which would've made me uncomfortable. He happily waited when I said I wanted to wait for sex. I've made men wait 2 months just for a KISS. Being direct and forward with physical or sexual desires will send me into hermitcrab status. this is a lie. its only like this if u dont like the guy. if ur crazy about him and he got sexual very early on you would sleep with him. iv seen it with hundreds of girls. the lies they say to me then go do opposite with others.
smackie9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I don't think somedude was trying to offend you- he just didn't know! I'm like this too. I've had guys be way too forward- sexting after the first date, heavy makeout session with ass-grabbing on first/second date. Those guys were the ones who kind of "went for it". It made me feel like a sex object and turned me off physical affection because I didn't find such disrespectful displays to be positive. So I made my boyfriend wait 6 dates. Not to punish him for other guys, but it took me some time to warm up to the idea that kissing can be done gently, lovingly and with respect to me. This where we differ. I'm an aggressive and expressive woman. I don't care for gentle, loving romantic fluff, that's to vanilla for me. I like hot passion, fast and furious. I have np kissing on the first date if there is a strong attraction. I do like being the one to call the shots. I like the guy to follow my lead when it comes to sex. I will let him know when it's gonna happen. There is no way I will make a guy "wait" weeks for a kiss or for sex for that matter. If it feels right, it feels right. I don't feel trashy or regret anything. It doesn't make a huge difference if you make a guy wait or not, you can still end up with a jerk. 1
DazedandConfused8 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Where the hell are women different than this? I thought you were leaving? 1
smackie9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Where the hell are women different than this? The trick is to not let yourself be their last option. If you had ballz you would not tolerate this and move on instead of hoping and waiting. If they are not willing to sleep with you, ditch them.
CrystalCastles Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 This where we differ. I'm an aggressive and expressive woman. I don't care for gentle, loving romantic fluff, that's to vanilla for me. I like hot passion, fast and furious. I have np kissing on the first date if there is a strong attraction. I do like being the one to call the shots. I like the guy to follow my lead when it comes to sex. I will let him know when it's gonna happen. There is no way I will make a guy "wait" weeks for a kiss or for sex for that matter. If it feels right, it feels right. I don't feel trashy or regret anything. It doesn't make a huge difference if you make a guy wait or not, you can still end up with a jerk. Well, to each their own. If we all liked the same type of guy, well that would be a bit of a problem for the human race, no? I'm also a very aggressive, dominant and in-your-face kind of girl. However, I don't like my dominant position to be challenged or questioned. Hence why my boyfriend's more submissive, quiet personality keeps me grounded because I can get carried away with the b*tchiness real easy. And if you're assuming that our makeout sessions weren't "passionate", or that they were "romantic fluff", nope. Our first kissing session was so aggressive that my jaw was sore for a few days after and I had scraped a few layers of skin off my chin because of his stubble. A wound that took about a week to heal (but I didn't care!). As Phoe pointed out, its nice to see a guy being able to control his urges. And I really don't see how its possible to "call the shots" when a guy is aggressive, because from my personal experience, aggressive guys are the ones who like calling the shots.
Phoe Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 The big question here is what's too forward and what's acceptable. Exactly. I know what I consider too forward, but that may be different to another person. Show me a male who is waiting sixty days for a kiss and I'll show you a guy who has found someone to put out out while you're holding out. Not when most of the guys I've been with were virgins and I was their first kiss anyway. No one was complaining. Ha, nobody is waiting 60 days for a kiss. See above. I have NEVER had a guy who had an issue with moving slow. I was their first, and they were nervous about physical stuff, so going slow suited them just fine. Yes, I moved faster with my boyfriend than I had in the past, doesn't mean he was "forward" with me. He waited til the second date for a kiss, and several more dates until there was some physical action, which still was not sex until a few more dates. I don't think somedude was trying to offend you- he just didn't know! I'm like this too. I've had guys be way too forward- sexting after the first date, heavy makeout session with ass-grabbing on first/second date. Those guys were the ones who kind of "went for it". It made me feel like a sex object and turned me off physical affection because I didn't find such disrespectful displays to be positive. So I made my boyfriend wait 6 dates. Not to punish him for other guys, but it took me some time to warm up to the idea that kissing can be done gently, lovingly and with respect to me. Luckily I've never had a date try to get fresh with me, but it would not be well received. this is a lie. its only like this if u dont like the guy. if ur crazy about him and he got sexual very early on you would sleep with him. iv seen it with hundreds of girls. the lies they say to me then go do opposite with others. Haha. Okay. I don't think I need to repeat any of what I said above. I prefer to move slow. Every relationship I have been in, up until my most recent, moved very slowly. And guess what? I liked each and every guy! I was crazy about each one! That's why I started relationships with them.
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