d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 I can understand that she is draining your energies right now. You are young at 22 IIRC, and there is still much to learn. Regardless of age, there is always much to learn. But because you gave up in the bottom of the ninth with a tied score, you are into an extra inning. If you had played for two more days, you would have given her at least the feeling of control over the situation. And a darn good reason for being in control of the situation. Now she is confused, and it's more a throw of the die, than anything else. What will she do? Because you dropped out of the game, leaving her heavily confused, it is highly likely that she will return to the ex. Unless he makes a complete a$$ out of himself. Hook up, and maybe even start all over again with him . Read shamen's post, and learn from that. It has many valuable pointers. If you don't know what to do, don't think about the situation anymore. There is nothing much you can do now. And if she calls respond. Given the fact that you told her "tell me nothing about the ex", I would not bet on it though. If she hooks up with him she won't call. If she does not hook up with him she has a lot of soulsearching to do. Read shamen's post again, to understand that point.
shamen Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 I would say that you keep trying to be there for her, but maybe not in the same way that you have been. I don't know that you two talking about her relationship is the best thing out there right now. If you need to move on (in terms of dating), you need to move on. Let her do what she needs to do. If she makes a mistake, she makes it. Like the title of your thread says, "You can't prevent her trial by fire." No need to go home and cry. You'll be OK! Maybe you too should go out tonight with some of your friends so you aren't at home to worry about whether or not she calls you tonight. So that way you don't have to decide anything about whether or not you should screen her call. I don't think that ultimatims like, "It's me or it's him," are going to do anybody any good. Just let her know that you're there for her (but don't be too there for her either). If she wants to talk about the whatever it is with the ex, listen, but don't give her any advice. If she talks about sex with the ex, tell her that you really don't want to talk about it. BUT, if you can't handle hearing her talk about him, tell her that and keep that part of the discussion completely off limits. IMHO, limited contact is the best way to go until she figures out what she is doing. But, don't wait too long for her to figure it out either. You've got to live your own life too. I'm sure that she just wants the very best for you too...
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Thanks you two. Underneath all this mess are two people that care very much for each other. I think we both realize that we would make a great couple, but obviously that is complicated by he recent breakup. She doesn't expect anything to come of tonight's get together, which tells me that she just wants to see things with her own eyes. I do get the feeling that she will come to me once she confirms that he isn't worth it. She even said something to the effect of, "Even if he wants to work on things, I'm not sure that's what I want." So I don't think she is hellbent on this entire reconciliation thing. Pardon my language, but this is one of the shi__iest situations I have ever found myself in. It sounds selfish, but I wish she would just give me a chance. She says I make her happy, and that's all I want to do. Even in this incredibly stressful predicament, I just want to see her happy. I just don't see that happening with her ex, and it pains me to think that she may be walking into gunfire tonight. I have to go with limited contact here. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do for her, but it is for me. I need to protect my own mental state and sanity. And I don't want to hear about him at all - not even to listen. I know that's not being a great friend, but it hurts too much to hear her talk about him.
d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 I can understand the LC deal. If you are not strong enough to handle it, it is best that you look out for your own sanity. It's a hard situation to be in. You must just hope she is not too confused by your sudden withdrawal (that is how she sees it). And hope that she is in the right mood and mindset to go through with this all. She sounded good, but I take it these were the words, before the confusion set in. I hope however she is firmly convinced of the truth of her own statements, and able to act upon this. Don't worry too much anymore. You don't have control of the situation, but that does not necessarily mean she will screw up.
shamen Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by iceisles Thanks you two. Underneath all this mess are two people that care very much for each other... ...It sounds selfish, but I wish she would just give me a chance. She says I make her happy, and that's all I want to do. Even in this incredibly stressful predicament, I just want to see her happy. I just don't see that happening with her ex, and it pains me to think that she may be walking into gunfire tonight. I have to go with limited contact here. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do for her, but it is for me. I need to protect my own mental state and sanity. And I don't want to hear about him at all - not even to listen. I know that's not being a great friend, but it hurts too much to hear her talk about him. You absolutely do both care about each other. It does suck. She probably does want to give you a chance, but she's just not ready. You have to let her walk into the gunfire. You can't protect her from her own stupid decisions. She's got to see them through and then she can get herself together. Nothing wrong with the limited contact. You are being a great friend by being honest and letting her know that you don't want to discuss something on which you have an un-objective viewpoint. You are doing all that you can do, I'm sure she knows that somewhere underneath. If you're not ready to hear her talk about the ex, that's perfectly OK too. *BIG HUG*
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by d'Arthez I can understand the LC deal. If you are not strong enough to handle it, it is best that you look out for your own sanity. It's a hard situation to be in. You must just hope she is not too confused by your sudden withdrawal (that is how she sees it). And hope that she is in the right mood and mindset to go through with this all. She sounded good, but I take it these were the words, before the confusion set in. I hope however she is firmly convinced of the truth of her own statements, and able to act upon this. Don't worry too much anymore. You don't have control of the situation, but that does not necessarily mean she will screw up. What should I tell her when she starts asking where I've been? She always gets curious whenever my away message says I'm out or if I don't call her back right away. Should I pretend that I'm going on dates or something? Even though I won't contact her, she will continue to look for me - guaranteed.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by shamen You absolutely do both care about each other. It does suck. She probably does want to give you a chance, but she's just not ready. You have to let her walk into the gunfire. You can't protect her from her own stupid decisions. She's got to see them through and then she can get herself together. Nothing wrong with the limited contact. You are being a great friend by being honest and letting her know that you don't want to discuss something on which you have an un-objective viewpoint. You are doing all that you can do, I'm sure she knows that somewhere underneath. If you're not ready to hear her talk about the ex, that's perfectly OK too. *BIG HUG* Thanks for the hugs, shamen. Next time I speak to her on the phone, which will probably be tomorrow, I'm just going to reiterate my commitment to being a part of her life, but that I can't emotionally handle discussing issues with her ex. I will let her know that she can tell me if she decides to get back together with him or not, but other than that, I need to distance myself from everything. Honestly, I think she will agree with that and be fine with me not wanting to talk about the guy. But while I do that, I'm not going to continue talking to her every night, and certainly not for an hour and a half - that kind of commitment is reserved to dating someone, IMO.
shamen Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by iceisles What should I tell her when she starts asking where I've been? She always gets curious whenever my away message says I'm out or if I don't call her back right away. Should I pretend that I'm going on dates or something? Even though I won't contact her, she will continue to look for me - guaranteed. Don't lie to her. Pretending to be doing something that you are not isn't going to help the situation any. When she starts asking where you've been, hmmm. You've already told her how you feel, right? Maybe just tell her that you realize that you can't be totally objective in your friendship? I don't know. D'Arthez?
d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Why play games at this critical hour? If you have planned an evening with your friends, tell her you spent the evening with friends. Considering the distance that exists between you (2 hours) she can't possibly know every spot you could hang out. Also if you have made any promises in the past days that you would move on Saturday, don't confuse her by moving on on Friday. Even without the promise, a dating statement would be confusing to her. In the future, you can tell her whatever you want to tell her. You had agreements with her, and if you are sticking to them it will only help improve her trust. So if you have a date next Monday, tell her that when she asks what you have done on Monday, when she asks you. Added: As always honesty is best. If you are not waiting on her (which you should not) be honest with her. If you had a date, tell her you had a date. If you hung out with your friends, tell her you hung out with your friends. As long as she is confused, about what she wants, you don't need to be available all the time to her.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by d'Arthez Why play games at this critical hour? If you have planned an evening with your friends, tell her you spent the evening with friends. Considering the distance that exists between you (2 hours) she can't possibly know every spot you could hang out. Also if you have made any promises in the past days that you would move on Saturday, don't confuse her by moving on on Friday. Even without the promise, a dating statement would be confusing to her. In the future, you can tell her whatever you want to tell her. You had agreements with her, and if you are sticking to them it will only help improve her trust. So if you have a date next Monday, tell her that when she asks what you have done on Monday, when she asks you. The thing is, I don't do much. I hardly ever hang out with friends (they are all married) and dating is a rare thing for me. Most times I am home doing nothing. But I don't want her thinking that. I don't like playing games, but I don't want her thinking that I'm just sitting at home waiting for her to call or contact me. I need to keep up some kind of appearance, even if I don't have much of a life.
shamen Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by iceisles Thanks for the hugs, shamen. Next time I speak to her on the phone, which will probably be tomorrow, I'm just going to reiterate my commitment to being a part of her life, but that I can't emotionally handle discussing issues with her ex. I will let her know that she can tell me if she decides to get back together with him or not, but other than that, I need to distance myself from everything. Honestly, I think she will agree with that and be fine with me not wanting to talk about the guy. But while I do that, I'm not going to continue talking to her every night, and certainly not for an hour and a half - that kind of commitment is reserved to dating someone, IMO. You're welcome! These all sound like great ideas! And you're right, talking for an hour and a half should be reserved for someone that you are dating... D'Arthez, I don't get the part about the moving on Saturday thing... I agree with d'Arthez's statement about sticking with the agreement that you made to her: LC. It will help improve the trust by you being there, but not being committed to her emotionally without being in a committed relationship.
d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Your last statement is good, and it will be clear to her, what she can and can't expect from you. Concerning the excuses: Tell her you are reading, tell her you are studying. There are a lot of ways one can enjoy oneself without even leaving the home. As long as you are not looking at p0rn on the internet or watching stupid TV all evening, girls don't mind that. Furthermore, you stated you were trying to understand her disorder. If there is ever an excuse she will love, it is that one. shamen: as far as I understand (and I am practically 40% of this thread, lol), Iceisles has told her that he will be moving on and consider dating other girls, after Friday, if she has not made up her mind. Hence he should not tell her he is dating her today. That statement does not shut the door for her, but also lets her know she has not all the time of the world to find out if she wants to be with Iceisles.
Bronzepen Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by iceisles I really just feel like crying. This is such a hard position to be in. Part of me wants to just give up, but I DO give a damn about this girl. Sure, I have some romantic motives, but I do care for her as a friend, as well. I want her to be happy, even if ultimately (and painfully) that means it's not with me. If she was an average girl, I would walk away from this for my own sanity. But this is someone I am crazy about and passionate for, and she knows it. She also said last night that she "sees potential" for "us" down the line, and that she feels bad for me being in this position. I could sense the sadness in her voice last night when I suggested that we shouldn't talk until she straightens things out. It was like I was creating a void in her life or something. d'Arthez, you are right about the whole condemning thing. I just don't want anything to happen tonight and can't get the thought out of my head that something will. Is she obligated to my feelings? No. Can I control her actions tonight? No. But I do think I have a right to be unhappy with the way she tosses sex around like a multi-purpose problem solver. I am not saying that she should adopt mine (or anyone else's) beliefs, but that kind of behavior/thinking is so off-center. She explained that she does this because she is good at sex, and I explained that being good at it is irrelevant - it should not be the solution, especially since he broke up with her for not getting enough of it. What do I do from here? I am a whirlwind of emotion right now and I don't know what to do. I still want her in my life, but I also don't want to know anything about her and her ex. Essentially, I still want to build on the foundation of our friendship but strip away my emotional support so that she is not reliant on me for it. And also, not talking about him will make me less likely to wonder about when she is hanging out with him or what she might be doing, etc. My friends are saying to remain in her life, and that limited contact is good. For example, don't call her tonight and if she calls me, screen it and return it sometime tomorrow afternoon. They want me to give the appearance of being the fun guy who is moving forward with my life even if she is spinning her wheels. But I don't know. I really don't. I just feel like leaving work and going home to cry, and I'm usually stronger than this. She has drained so much energy out of me. OK where to start.... If the relationship isn't going nowhere then don't remain friends. The attraction for her is always going to be there and your going to find yourself hurting whenever she talks about her ex or new guys she meet. Ice you seem to do things backwards when you meet women. Not trying to sound mean here. Hear me out. You became friends with her before asking her out. That's a no, no. When you meet someone of the opposite sex for the first time the first thing you should always ask yourself is this - If I was single and she was single then would I date her? If your answer is yes, maybe, not sure or possibly then you have an attraction to her. You then proceed to ask her out or let her know what your intentions are. If she responds with no, not ready, maybe in the future or we'll see then thank her kindly for her time and respectfully decline if she says "But we can still be friends." If your answer is no about whether to date her or not then it's up to you if you want to consider her as a friend. You then can really be there for her, as well as, her being there for you. But since you became friends with someone your attracted too, you have this big mess. As people have mentioned here, you can never really be a true friend to her because of your attraction for her. She needs a friend right now but you can't be that friend. You did the right thing by moving on. Yes, you hurt her but at the same time you weren't helping her either. Also, the whole situation was hurting you. Learn from this. In the future, ask yourself the question that I stated above and go from there.
shamen Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by iceisles The thing is, I don't do much. I hardly ever hang out with friends (they are all married) and dating is a rare thing for me. Most times I am home doing nothing. But I don't want her thinking that. I don't like playing games, but I don't want her thinking that I'm just sitting at home waiting for her to call or contact me. I need to keep up some kind of appearance, even if I don't have much of a life. Then maybe you need to start doing more. Find someone else who you can hang out with, so you don't focus so much of your time and attention on her. Start asking your married friends to go out and do something. Refocus some of your attention on yourself to find a new activity to do, if you need to. Get out of the house! It'll be good for you. That said, I know how you feel about hibernating. But if you are hibernating, do something useful with your time. Please don't start playing games with her now by lying (sp?) to her. If you're at home, why would she think that you're waiting for her to call? I've never thought this about any man in my life (I would never be so egotistical to think that and she probably isn't either). Just be honest about what you're doing with your time.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 I'm just going to rent some movies and get wasted tonight. I need a mental vacation from this frustration.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Ya know, there's a double standard here. She thinks it's ok for her to go out and have sex with me feeling this way, but if I were to go out tonight and get it on with someone, she would be hurt. That's not fair - if we aren't committed to each other, we should both have equal reign of our actions. I know she would be very disappointed with me if I hooked up with someone tonight, though.
nicki Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 wow, such great advice and support here for ice....i think we all really feel for you. you sound like a wonderful and thoughtful guy. I'm sure this girl knows that you are the best choice for her, but she feels out of control of her actions with this other guy....so much emotion still... From my point of view, I would say everyone is right about you being honest with her and yourself. There is no way you can be just a friend if you are attracted to her. This is not selfish. This is reality. You will always want more. Why deny it? Being a friend is part of it, not all of it. Bottom line: you must preserve your own sanity, and do whatever is right for YOU. Keep seeing her if you can. Keep talking to her if you can, but in a way that honors your own needs. I think that she will love your strength, and even borrow from it. And by the way, the whole reason I got over my ex was because there was a sweet wonderful man who listened to me b*tch about my ex. But he was smart. He would say "I never would have done that to you." It was exactly what i needed to hear! How could he know that i was afraid of picking the same kind of loser as my ex? He also cheered me up, took me out. I actually became afraid I was going to lose him to another woman if I didn't wise up and let go of my ex....otherwise, i might have wallowed in misery a whole lot longer if the new guy had listened to me and indulged my despair... I believe that there comes a time to act your way into a new attitude. It doesn't work the other way around. She may never understand her ex before she can move on. She will have to move on and then see he doesn't matter any more. You are patient, but it's up to you. Always be honest with her about what you need, in a sweet compassionate tone of voice. Just remember that you do have control of this situation. You are a good role model for her. Best of luck!
EC Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 How cruel of her to have you there waiting for her, telling you she likes you so much, but telling you she has feelings for her ex, telling she is going to have sex with him, but telling you to hold in case the sex doesn't change his mind to bring him back to her. I mean c'mon..your a man..where are your cojones..snap out of it.
d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 I see why you feel it is a double standard. But you can't honestly expect her not to hook up with anyone (not even the ex), while you would be playing the field. If you have played your cards right, you would have told her, "If you can't move on from your ex tonight, I also will be moving on." If she has sex, move on. You told her that, and stick to your guns. How cruel of her to have you there waiting for her, telling you she likes you so much, but telling you she has feelings for her ex, telling she is going to have sex with him, but telling you to hold in case the sex doesn't change his mind to bring him back to her. I mean c'mon..your a man..where are your cojones..snap out of it. EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd, she has not expressed her desire to have sex with her ex. It is a distinct possibility however. If your relationship would fail, (I hope not), and a guy was interested in you, everytime you will go back to the ex, it might be for sex. Especially to a guy who is interested in you, and knows how your relationship started, i.e. hooking up. How could he help thinking that? In his mind he had to be practically married to you, for him to feel even a bit safe.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd How cruel of her to have you there waiting for her, telling you she likes you so much, but telling you she has feelings for her ex, telling she is going to have sex with him, but telling you to hold in case the sex doesn't change his mind to bring him back to her. I mean c'mon..your a man..where are your cojones..snap out of it. She is confused, and while she mostly realizes that sex isn't the answer, she sometimes get overwhelmed by her hormones. I guess I can't blame her for that. Guys are often just as guilty of doing things and regretting them later. I think she will have to get beaten down just to finally realize that I will pick her back up. Nicki - thanks for the post and kind words. I am a very positive and confident person, and usually that attitude in life has brought me success. However, I'm not sure remaining positive will yield the same results in this situation. I don't know, it might. I have several e-mails from her saying that she could never repay me for being there for her and that she doesn't know what she would do without me. There may be a payoff for sticking around, but it's so damn hard. I just want her to make a decision. Either way I will be happy. She knows that I would treat her better than her ex, but I think she needs to see him before she can start to close the door on that relationship. And, to be honest, if my ex wanted to see me tonight, you could bet I'd be going over there, too. I just wouldn't pounce on her.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 She just e-mailed me: "what happened this morning u didn't im me or call me? and you haven't e-mailed me yet. i just want to make sure everything is ok with you? if it is, how is you day going? mine is busy as usually. well i will hopefully talk to you soon" What do I say to that? This was the first time in two weeks that I wasn't online this morning to wish her a good day at work. I'm thinking of replying, "Yeah, everything is alright, thanks. I hope you're having a good day." See what I mean? She is always concerned about me and misses me when we don't talk. I admit I really like that. I've never been treated that way before. You guys have any ideas what I should write back, or if I should even write back at all? As always, thanks for making time to help me.
d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Write her back, keep it short, and keep it lovely and inspirational. Considering today is D-Day, put in, a "Take good care of yourself", but don't mention the ex, or anything about what might happen tonight.
nicki Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 yeah, she can't make any good decisions while she is confused. but at least she has been HONEST with you about that! you might want to stick around and see what happens, but if you do, you should force yourself to date others so you don't commit too much to her right now. it really needs to be equal. i once had an ex who told me he was over the girl who dumped him before me. (i didn't want to get involved with him otherwise, and he knew that.) We started dating seriously. He said he loved me six months later, wanted a life with me, etc....then, bam over one year later, i caught him in a lie about contacting his ex. That's when he told me that he suddenly felt, at this point in our relationship, "relaxed" enough to commit to me... ouch, i felt so used...he said he would have gone back to his ex if she had wanted him anytime before that...and i knew none of this. i thought he really loved just me the whole time...so just when he was finally all comfy and committed to me, a year later than he originally said, i wanted to bail.... so, moral of the story, i wouldn't give all of my heart to this woman either way, for a long time. do what is right for you. please make sure it's equal, what ever you both have together.
Author iceisles Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by d'Arthez Write her back, keep it short, and keep it lovely and inspirational. Considering today is D-Day, put in, a "Take good care of yourself", but don't mention the ex, or anything about what might happen tonight. I'm finding it hard to be "lovely" or "inspirational" right now, because things really aren't alright. I don't like pretending that I'm alright when I'm not.
d'Arthez Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 I understand that. You don't need to write something Shakespearian, but something that shows that you care, without overdoing it. "Hi XXXX, Yeah I am fine. I have been busy this morning and lost track of time somewhat. I am still busy doing YYYY. Hopefully you are feeling positive. Thanks for showing your concern for me. Take good care of yourself, Iceisles"
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