I can't prevent her trial by fire

[EC]

With women like that you have to be strong.

 

I know you like her and might not be so happy losing her but my advice is say I won't be your play toy. I am young, single and goodlooking and I don't have to give you the time of day if I don't want to. Say I won't wait around for ever and if you still want your ex then go ahead and wait for him then but I am moving on. And show her you mean it.

 

If she likes you as much as you think she does then she sould snap out of the ex drama bullsh*t.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by iceisles

Here's the thing - we hardly ever talk about her ex. That has just been the last two days, and only for a few minutes out of the 90. Most of the talk is about "us" - things we'd like to together. Like, she was saying "When we go to Myrtle Beach..." and "It'll be fun going to Tennessee." We had talked about this before, and she continues to reference me in her future. She also calls me "honey" and "sweetie" on occasion, so I can't help but think that she REALLY does want to be with me but isn't (at least at this second) strong enough to drop the ex cold-turkey. We are also planning on going to a concert together in a couple of weeks, and she wants to continue to hang out and spend time together.

 

I know this may look the same as the other girl on the surface, Bronze, but the difference here is that this girl is actually into me. The emotional support I'm providing is just a small part of the overall picture. She does think very highly of me, and like I said previously, we would probably be together if that moron wasn't around.

 

OK, do you think her ex knows about you? Do you think she may be using you to get back with her ex by making him jealous? Besides that point.

 

She is living the best of both worlds. She wants her ex back but has you on the side in case of anything. Talking and making promises, giving you false hopes.

 

Don't you feel like a third wheel?

 

If she was really into you she would have forgotten about her ex and moved on with you.

 

To be honest with you, she doesn't sound like a nice person to me. Look at it this way. Put yourself her situation. Here you are, you have an ex and you are trying to get back with her. You also have a friend who you know is interested in you. Your first priority is to get back with your ex but your also keeping the friend on the side in case things don't work out with your ex. Telling her your going to do all these things with her in the future but at the same time your hoping that your ex gets back to you. Sounds selfish and insensitive.

 

Ice, I don't want to see you get hurt again.

 

Here is my advice.

 

Tell her to give you a call when she is ready to date you exclusively and her ex is history to her.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd

With women like that you have to be strong.

 

I know you like her and might not be so happy losing her but my advice is say I won't be your play toy. I am young, single and goodlooking and I don't have to give you the time of day if I don't want to. Say I won't wait around for ever and if you still want your ex then go ahead and wait for him then but I am moving on. And show her you mean it.

 

If she likes you as much as you think she does then she sould snap out of the ex drama bullsh*t.

 

I hope she does. So far, she knows I like her, but she may not be fully aware that she could lose if she waits too long. I am going to make that clear tonight. She is probably concerned about that anyway, but it will be good to reinforce the notion that she needs to find some direction relatively quickly because I'm not going to be a puppet on a string. She has said that I am so much nicer, better, and romantic than any other guy she has ever known or dated. If that's true, the choice should be easy. Her opportunity is knocking. I hope she is listening.

[EC]

Tell her to give you a call when she is ready to date you exclusively and her ex is history to her

 

Exactly. Like Tupac said " Here's my number but don't call me till your sure"

 

LOL Im telling you I know girls like this. And even though she may think your great she is still in love with her ex and wont be ready to settle down. Shes going to go through the "what if" stage. Where its all I cant get TOO serious with anyone because "what if " my ex comes back.

 

Then shes going to go through the f*ck my ex stage and she will date guys to spite him. Then she needs to go through the damn it really is over stage and she'll probably be alone for a while.

 

I mean not all cases are like this but I ve seen it happen.

 

If you think shes cool enough to wait around for the by all means wait around for her but she better be freaking really cool.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd

Exactly. Like Tupac said " Here's my number but don't call me till your sure"

 

LOL Im telling you I know girls like this. And even though she may think your great she is still in love with her ex and wont be ready to settle down. Shes going to go through the "what if" stage. Where its all I cant get TOO serious with anyone because "what if " my ex comes back.

 

Then shes going to go through the f*ck my ex stage and she will date guys to spite him. Then she needs to go through the damn it really is over stage and she'll probably be alone for a while.

 

I mean not all cases are like this but I ve seen it happen.

 

If you think shes cool enough to wait around for the by all means wait around for her but she better be freaking really cool.

 

Yeah, you and Bronze are right. I'm just going to say that she'll have to decide if it's him or me. If she can't make up her mind, she has my number and she can call me with that answer when she has it. By that time, I may still be interested or I'll be with someone else.

[EC]

Yeah, you and Bronze are right. I'm just going to say that she'll have to decide if it's him or me. If she can't make up her mind, she has my number and she can call me with that answer when she has it. By that time, I may still be interested or I'll be with someone else.

 

Thats awesome I hope you can stick by that!!!

[iceisles]

Originally posted by EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd

Thats awesome I hope you can stick by that!!!

 

You and me both. I talk a lot of sh__, but backing it up is sometimes inconsistent.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

Yeah, that would be great advice if the majority of teenagers and 20+ people did not mind screwing other people over. Organize a poll on LS, and we will find out that at least 95% of people on LS have major issues. Some issues are acknowledged, most are not even acknowledged. A fact of life is that 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in a life-time. Will they somehow forget the assault? Of course not. Are they all damaged beyond hope? No.

 

Generalizing.

 

Don't lump all issues into one basket.

 

Iceisles is dealing with someone that still has feeling for another person but has Ice on the side in case things don't work out.

 

This is highschool drama.

 

I strongly disagree with Bronzepen, since Iceisles is already caught up in the situation. If someone is caught in a game, you can't suddenly drop out of the game, especially in the bottom of the ninth, with a tied score line, all bases covered and no outs.

 

Relationships is not a game.

 

Iceisles can walk away from this situation. No diffrent then she would wallk away from him if she gets back with her ex. He is not committed to nothing and neither is she.

 

She must overcome her ex. Unless she were unable to feel emotional pain it would be impossible to turn the switch in a matter of a few weeks. That is the reason you have to force the choice. If you don't do that you will be trapped in the friends zone for sure. You make your offer, and that is the best you can do. I am fairly hopeful she turns around, too. If she does not, you must make it clear to her, you will be dating other girls.

 

Either way, it may not win a prize for morally outstanding performance, but then again if you would win that prize, you would never be in a relationship. I know.

 

Iceisles cannot force her to do anything. She is obviously not over her ex. Iceisles came along an consoled her. He is her support. Nothing more.

 

He should have walked away as soon as she mentioned that she still missed her ex.

 

He should have told her, good luck and call me when your over your ex.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by iceisles

Yeah, you and Bronze are right. I'm just going to say that she'll have to decide if it's him or me. If she can't make up her mind, she has my number and she can call me with that answer when she has it. By that time, I may still be interested or I'll be with someone else.

 

 

That's the attitude.

 

Don't give so much time and effort into something only to have nothing to show for it.

 

 

Lot's of fishes out there. Keep fishing.

[d'Arthez]

The break-up was not too long ago EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd. It is not as if she already had been clinging on an idealized idol of her ex for months.

 

The fact is, that she has issues. We can all long to meet a person without emotional bagage, but that is pointless. Unless after your first break-up in your life you want to remain celibate. I take it you are not as much of a purist in that regard.

 

You are going to have to force this issue with her. And you will, because otherwise you will be stuck in the emotional draining friendship zone. But given the enormous investment she had made with her ex (they were in a relationship), you'd be shooting yourself in your foot if you put it bluntly.

 

Call her today (this evening?) and explain to her, what you want, what you offer and what you are looking for. Take it, great!, leave it, you'll be dating other girls.

[EC]

The break-up was not too long ago EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd. It is not as if she already had been clinging on an idealized idol of her ex for months.

 

I know this thats why I said

 

LOL Im telling you I know girls like this. And even though she may think your great she is still in love with her ex and wont be ready to settle down. Shes going to go through the "what if" stage. Where its all I cant get TOO serious with anyone because "what if " my ex comes back.

 

Then shes going to go through the f*ck my ex stage and she will date guys to spite him. Then she needs to go through the damn it really is over stage and she'll probably be alone for a while.

 

She still has a lot to go through and learn about herself after the break up before she can commit to someone else or give iceisles what he wants.

[d'Arthez]

Originaly posted by EtErNaLlYCoNfUsEd: She still has a lot to go through and learn about herself after the break up before she can commit to someone else or give iceisles what he wants.

The question is, if Iceisles is willing to accept the bagage. As far as I know most people actually get into relationships to learn about relationships. It's a catch-22 for most people. Most people are blind to the dynamics of relationships. And they have to get burned repeatedly before they realize somewhere there's fire out there.

Of course a lot of people think they know what they want. And think they know it all.

 

Of course the whole issue is based on the premise that Iceisles is willing to accept her as a gf with some issues. If not he had wasted his time.

 

I don't claim I have all the answers on these questions.

 

If Iceisles does not take some action, he will be stuck in the friendszone.

 

1) If she chooses him, great. Issue resolved.

 

If he does take some action, and she rejects him for whatever reason she comes up with, she may find out that the friendship did not mean the same thing to her than to him.

 

2) If he remains there for her as a friend great. Issue resolved, albeit not as hoped for.

 

3) If Iceisles withdraws completely from her, the consequences will probably be severe. Given the fact that she is bi-polar, that can have spectacular consequences on her. Not his fault, but if his intentions were not unselfish he could better not be in a relationship with her.

[iceisles]

The breakup is still in the infancy stage, at just 3 weeks. I cannot expect her to jump onto the Ice Ship right away. In fact, I would be a little concerned if she just moved on that quickly. What I need to establish, however, is that I will need a decision from her relatively soon. If not a definitive "me or him" answer, I need to know which way she is leaning. I don't want to hang in limbo much longer.

[moo]

There is sooo much to read here that I have just skimmed after the first page. I apologize in advance if i repeat, or am out of date.

 

I have had "friends" like you. Firstly you say you are the first guy that's really been there for her, but you are not there for her. You are there for you, plain and simple.

 

You have already admitted that you won't just be her friend if she doesnt want a relationship with you. You have refused to talk about the very thing that she is fu(ked up about right now and really needs advice and help for.

 

She knows this. She knows you wont be around as her friend without thinking you are going to end up with her. She thinks you are selfish. She will therefore give you the impression that she may want something more, but this is because this is the only way she can keep you around. You make her feel good because you WANT her. You make her feel bad because you WANT her, but you don't CARE about her.

[iceisles]

She wasn't really happy with me saying this, but I told her that I didn't think we should talk again until she makes a decision about who she wants to be with. I care about her dearly and will miss talking, and while I feel awful for making her upset, I just can't handle being stuck in the middle of all this. I have instituted immediate limited contact - I will only be returning her phone calls and e-mails, but even those replies won't be nearly as prompt as they used to be and I won't be talking about her and the ex anymore - period. I am going to send a message that I won't be the convenient emotional support guy, even if she sees me as so much more than that.

 

Love is rough. I sure could use a mixed drink right about now.

[nicki]

Hey, Ice, hang in there. You are doing the right thing. I've been involved in this situation on both sides. It sucks big time either way.

 

You are right about not being her "emotional go-to guy." She will use you like a therapist and NEVER see you as a boyfriend. When she complains about this guy, I'd say something like "I would never have done that to you. That really stinks." Then I'd smile, shut up and do something fun with her.

 

The guy who is fun and makes her laugh will win her. That way she can distance herself from the pain. You don't want to be associated with the pain of this guy. That's what can happen if you listen to her go on and on and try to "help" her figure it all out....arghh! very confusing....i remember...

 

She may well need a push to get over this guy. So, do what you said. Stop indulging her talk. Go out with other women. Let her know you are there for her, but don't be her therapist. Be the fun guy who is dating OTHER women.

 

Take it from experience on this one, from both sides...but again, just my humble opinion...

 

[moo]

When she complains about this guy, I'd say something like "I would never have done that to you. That really stinks." Then I'd smile, shut up and do something fun with her.

 

 

did this win you her affections? did you end up getting your relationship with her?

the line "I would never have done that to you" immediately exposes you as somebody who is only hanging around to get what you want!! its so transparent.

 

 

You are right about not being her "emotional go-to guy." She will use you like a therapist and NEVER see you as a boyfriend.

 

true true!

 

Go out with other women. Let her know you are there for her, but don't be her therapist. Be the fun guy who is dating OTHER women.

 

 

this is much better advice. just get on with your life and really try to stop seeing her as someone you want to go out with for awhile at least. have some fun. wait until you can see her and just have a laugh with her and stop talking about who is she gonna be with etc etc

nobody likes pressure

[d'Arthez]

She wasn't really happy with me saying this, but I told her that I didn't think we should talk again until she makes a decision about who she wants to be with. I care about her dearly and will miss talking, and while I feel awful for making her upset, I just can't handle being stuck in the middle of all this. I have instituted immediate limited contact - I will only be returning her phone calls and e-mails, but even those replies won't be nearly as prompt as they used to be and I won't be talking about her and the ex anymore - period. I am going to send a message that I won't be the convenient emotional support guy, even if she sees me as so much more than that.

 

Love is rough. I sure could use a mixed drink right about now.

 

Yes, but you need to wonder how her mind processes this, at the current moment. Because of your timing, she may possibly think (assuming an elated mood): "ex wants to f*ck me this Friday. When I am done with ex, and give Iceisles a call, he wants to f*ck me. He calls it a new relationship. What is the difference? I can't talk with ex, I can't talk with Iceisles anymore. Screw it all!" Part of the thought processes may be unconcious.

 

Even though she suffers from a bi-polar disorder, it does not mean she is stupid. She will be wondering if you were just playing the good friend, to become involved with her.

 

You should not be too surprised if she hooks up with her ex again. If she does call in the near future, you might risk the possibility that she has become sexually promiscuous. Not what you want.

 

Maybe she was too much to handle, but if that is the case, you better make certain you never get involved with her. I can understand that you don't want to be her emotional support guy. But even if she were over your ex, the issues because of the bi-polar disorder remain. They don't magically vanish, when her ex is completely out of the picture.

 

The die have been cast ...

[iceisles]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

Yes, but you need to wonder how her mind processes this, at the current moment. Because of your timing, she may possibly think (assuming an elated mood): "ex wants to f*ck me this Friday. When I am done with ex, and give Iceisles a call, he wants to f*ck me. He calls it a new relationship. What is the difference? I can't talk with ex, I can't talk with Iceisles anymore. Screw it all!" Part of the thought processes may be unconcious.

 

Even though she suffers from a bi-polar disorder, it does not mean she is stupid. She will be wondering if you were just playing the good friend, to become involved with her.

 

You should not be too surprised if she hooks up with her ex again. If she does call in the near future, you might risk the possibility that she has become sexually promiscuous. Not what you want.

 

Maybe she was too much to handle, but if that is the case, you better make certain you never get involved with her. I can understand that you don't want to be her emotional support guy. But even if she were over your ex, the issues because of the bi-polar disorder remain. They don't magically vanish, when her ex is completely out of the picture.

 

The die have been cast ...

 

I understand the importance of the Bipolar disorder, but I look at it like this - I only want a romantic relationship with her. I don't want to be a ping-pong heart being smacked around between two players. She IS smart and knows this. If I retract from her life substantially (but not completely), it will send a very clear message that I am unhappy with the circumstances and that I will not stick around if she runs back to him. I do expect her to f*ck her ex tonight despite my strong words of advice not to. She recognizes that it wouldn't be smart but that she probably wouldn't have the will-power to say 'no'. For someone who claims to be strong, she is speaking in contradictions.

[d'Arthez]

The same can be said of her thought processes concerning you. Your actions are wildly contradictory in her mind. She probably considers this: "Iceisles says he is a friend. But ... A friend should be there in a time of need. A friend does not want to f*ck me into a relationship with him ... "

 

Both are strictly rational thought patterns. Her disorder does not make it impossible for her to think rationally about the people around her. She is about as smart as a normal person without the disorder. What is a problem, is that she loses her inhibitions in her elated mood, and overestimates her willpower. She may or may not f*ck her ex tonight. But she now feels it does not make too much of a difference for her if she does or does not. Which is exactly what you should have avoided.

 

The romantic relationship without the disorder will be out of the picture for several years at least. You know that. If you feel unable to deal with that part of her life, give her that piece of honesty then.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

The same can be said of her thought processes concerning you. Your actions are wildly contradictory in her mind. She probably considers this: "Iceisles says he is a friend. But ... A friend should be there in a time of need. A friend does not want to f*ck me into a relationship with him ... "

 

Both are strictly rational thought patterns. Her disorder does not make it impossible for her to think rationally about the people around her. She is about as smart as a normal person without the disorder. What is a problem, is that she loses her inhibitions in her elated mood, and overestimates her willpower. She may or may not f*ck her ex tonight. But she now feels it does not make too much of a difference for her if she does or does not. Which is exactly what you should have avoided.

 

The romantic relationship without the disorder will be out of the picture for several years at least. You know that. If you feel unable to deal with that part of her life, give her that piece of honesty then.

 

Honestly, I don't care anymore. And it has nothing to do with her disorder. I just need to find someone who is ready and willing to be with me now. I'm not a young kid anymore. I will still talk to her casually, but in the back of my mind, I will just wish her the best and move on.

[iceisles]

Addendum to the above: I'm going to lose a lot of respect for her when she does that tonight. I don't want to be with the kind of girl that thinks a romp in the sack will fix things. Maybe it's none of my business what she does tonight, but here's how I see it: she says sex is no big deal to her. Fine - it isn't to a lot of folks. But it IS a big deal to me, and if she really cared how I felt about her, she would do everything in her power to resist the temptation. In other words, it's hard for me to believe that I mean so much to her when she is willing to have just have some casual sex with him at my emotional expense.

[d'Arthez]

If you say you are going to lose a lot of respect for her because she might have sex with her ex. The thing is: she is not attached. And as long as she is not attached, and has sex with someone who is not attached, you cannot morally condemn her. Unless you feel everybody should save themselves for marriage. But I take this is not the case.

 

Furthermore you deserve to be honest with yourself. The next words sound harsh, I know:

 

You only were friends for the possible future benefits. If you really cared about her, you would be her friend without even thinking of the possible benefits. You would not have played the LC game. You were honest, and admitted you had an interest in her. But only because of your romantic interest in her, you talked to her. Not because you care truly about her as a person.

 

You are holding her hostage, which is not fair. I can't make a demand on any of my friends on how they behave in their personal lifes. If they ask for advice I will give it. If they don't act upon my advice it may have consequences, on my future interactions with them, but to morally condemn them for doing what they believed was right is a bridge too far. Where is the compassion? Where is the understanding that people make mistakes in their lifes?

 

You want her to behave to your own moral standards, but you can't control any person except for yourself. Regarding friendships she may even have higher standards than you. Without doubt, she is a user in your eyes. Without doubt you are too, in her eyes.

[shamen]

Wow, I wish I read this thread earlier. I'm sorry to hear that you are ready to move on. That sucks.

 

I was a woman very much in the position that your friend is currently in. I was with my ex for years while I had this other male friend in my life. Just a little story for you...

 

I had no idea that my friend had any feelings for me until he asked me to come home with him (admittedly he was a little buzzed). That was a year and a half ago.

 

My ex is an alcoholic and a drug addict and my friend and I talked a lot about my relationship until this event happened with my friend. A year ago, I admitted that I had feelings for my friend when we were out one night and we started spending even more time together and even took a weekend trip together (unbeknowst to my exbf). Nothing happened with the friend.

 

As I was finally going through the break up, my friend dropped out of my life almost completely. It hurt me so much that when I felt like I needed my friend the most, he left me there by myself. We talked a month or so later, he saying that he was the third wheel in my relationship and that he couldn't be there to help me because I was so confused and he couldn't be rational with any suggestions as he had alterior motives. We didn't spend a lot of time together as I was trying to get over the ex. I was a mess.

 

Fast forward to this past September, my friend and I got really drunk and ended up fooling around. We weren't hanging out as much (he's got his own issues with depression and alcohol), so it was good, but kind of confusing. I ended up back together with my ex. Stupid, stupid me. My friend told me that us fooling around was just some drunken thing that happened (he told me this after I told him that I had gotten back together with my ex).

 

My ex and I broke up again a month and a half ago. I called my friend, but didn't say that I had finally broke up with my ex, as I didn't want to confuse the friendship anymore than it already was. Eventually, the subject of my ex came up and I told him that we were no longer together. He sent me an email after I didn't hear from him for a couple of weeks, saying that he was dating someone and that it could become serious.

 

Needless to say, I'm really sad, but I completely understand. To this day, I have no real idea what he thinks about me. He admitted to me at the end of December that I told him that night that we fooled around that I said that it didn't mean anything to me. I was really buzzed and don't remember saying that. I told him that I would like the experience to happen again and he said that we would need some ground rules.

 

Oh well. The whole experience has left me sad as I've probably lost a good friend, who I think that I've been in love with for over a year. I miss him so much. I wasn't ready or willing to leave my already dead relationship because I was silly, silly. My exbf and I were together for over 4 years. That last 3 I knew that it would never work out.

 

I don't mean to hijack your thread (I'm sorry that it's so long) and I won't say more about my past experience. I just wanted you to see this from the other side for just a moment. I'd be happy to comment on what the other side of this may feel like, if you'd like.

[iceisles]

I really just feel like crying. This is such a hard position to be in. Part of me wants to just give up, but I DO give a damn about this girl. Sure, I have some romantic motives, but I do care for her as a friend, as well. I want her to be happy, even if ultimately (and painfully) that means it's not with me. If she was an average girl, I would walk away from this for my own sanity. But this is someone I am crazy about and passionate for, and she knows it. She also said last night that she "sees potential" for "us" down the line, and that she feels bad for me being in this position. I could sense the sadness in her voice last night when I suggested that we shouldn't talk until she straightens things out. It was like I was creating a void in her life or something.

 

d'Arthez, you are right about the whole condemning thing. I just don't want anything to happen tonight and can't get the thought out of my head that something will. Is she obligated to my feelings? No. Can I control her actions tonight? No. But I do think I have a right to be unhappy with the way she tosses sex around like a multi-purpose problem solver. I am not saying that she should adopt mine (or anyone else's) beliefs, but that kind of behavior/thinking is so off-center. She explained that she does this because she is good at sex, and I explained that being good at it is irrelevant - it should not be the solution, especially since he broke up with her for not getting enough of it.

 

What do I do from here? I am a whirlwind of emotion right now and I don't know what to do. I still want her in my life, but I also don't want to know anything about her and her ex. Essentially, I still want to build on the foundation of our friendship but strip away my emotional support so that she is not reliant on me for it. And also, not talking about him will make me less likely to wonder about when she is hanging out with him or what she might be doing, etc.

 

My friends are saying to remain in her life, and that limited contact is good. For example, don't call her tonight and if she calls me, screen it and return it sometime tomorrow afternoon. They want me to give the appearance of being the fun guy who is moving forward with my life even if she is spinning her wheels. But I don't know. I really don't. I just feel like leaving work and going home to cry, and I'm usually stronger than this. She has drained so much energy out of me.