I can't prevent her trial by fire

[iceisles]

A good friend of mine still has feelings for her ex and is clinging to hope that he will somehow change from the argumentative, selfish person he was prior to their breakup. I can understand still caring about him, but as many of us know, it is a foolish notion to think you can change someone. Look how many threads are on here about people getting back together with exes just to regret that decision. It's because the entire dynamic changes once you've split up. Things rarely are ever the same, and only once in a blue moon do things actually get better the second time around. 99% of the time, the problems between two people will always exist. That's why you broke up to begin with.

 

What sucks is that she doesn't want anyone's help or guidance on this. She wants to cling to false hope and try to continue believing that things will be easier and less complicated by continuing to hang out with her ex. She has refused my advice, and thinks that coming to boards like this (even just to browse) is only for "weak" people. Personally, if she is still clinging to her ex after he demanded to be having more sex, she should reconsider who is the weak one.

 

This is just a rant because I can't stand when people want to walk right into the firing squad without any help. I know some people want to handle things on their own, but relationship problems are often way too overwhelming to handle on your own. I guess I just have to sit back and know that she will have to learn the hard way here. I don't like being on the sidelines, though.

[d'Arthez]

It sucks watching people making mistakes. But for a lot of people it is the only way to learn.

 

I know a lot of people who think of the first 10 years they have relationship as "time to acquire experience." They even prefer to be royally screwed over a couple of times! For the "experience." Makes rationally no sense at all.

 

For some people a relationship can be addictive. As if they want more punishment. They fool themselves in believing people like her ex can change. Again and again. Sure, sometimes the person who is abused breaks up. But also tries to return not once, not twice, but maybe even 10 times.

 

Another question is, and this is not easy to answer, can you and will you be her safety net now she has willingly ignored your advice? Using you for sympathy and her (ex)bf for her addictive needs. If that is the case, you should consider your position very carefully.

[Sckott]

It's because the entire dynamic changes once you've split up. Things rarely are ever the same, and only once in a blue moon do things actually get better the second time around. 99% of the time, the problems between two people will always exist. That's why you broke up to begin with.

 

I've split up with an ex only to get back together again. Yes, it's rare as hen's teeth that it works out. She wanted to move to California, came back 2 years later with her tail between her legs (it turned out it didn't work for her) and we reunited. Course, another 2 years and we split again.

 

The point about the dynamic is absolutely correct IMHO. It's very self-defeating to rely on the broken love to repair. If anything, you need to let things go (and I learn this over and over) or you obsess and gather unhealthy feelings for yourself and the other person. If this person comes back, it still takes work, compassion on both sides.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

Another question is, and this is not easy to answer, can you and will you be her safety net now she has willingly ignored your advice? Using you for sympathy and her (ex)bf for her addictive needs. If that is the case, you should consider your position very carefully.

 

Well, here's the thing. We also like each other a lot - in the romantic sense. She's caught in limbo trying to figure out what his deal his, while at the same time, she thinks I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. As much as I like her, my priority is having her seek some kind of closure or reconciliation with her ex, because I do not want to date her while her mind is still on him. Either they will get back together or they won't, but I won't be acting on my romantic interest until she unilaterally makes up her mind.

 

She's a very nice girl, just very independent and refuses to ask for her help with her problems. I find that noble sometimes, but not with this. I think her trampled heart is about to be walked on again.

[debs]

Ice some NEVER learn or move on!

 

I have a female friend, her and the guy broke up near 3 years ago. Still to this day she comes online and I see his away message and know she is up to her delusions again! *sigh*

 

I have since broken off with this female due to her emotionally draining me to no end! I have enough of my own grieving to also deal with her dysfunctional selfishness now or in the near future!

 

A co-dependency relationship is of no service to me!! Yes I confronted her that she needs help which she did seek out, but as I just saw late last night she again is bothering the guy and his away message said a thousand words to me!

 

It is hard letting go of someone you truly feel your in love with. But!!! If people would truly look very closely and observe the ex from afar, sometimes you can see why you no longer are together! And wonder what it was you actually saw in the person!? I saw mine in his full light not so long ago and am happy to say though it hurt, it is best I have NC and avoid all future contacts with a selfish user he is!

[d'Arthez]

I am sorry for your situation . The problem is, she can't get closure from the ex, but she has to find it in herself.

She's a very nice girl, just very independent and refuses to ask for her help with her problems.

 

I don't doubt she is a nice girl. You feel she is not acting smart in this situation, and you know she won't take advice online. Unless you can really talk deeply with her about her issues, you can't do a thing. You have tried that, and have failed. That's no fault of yours though.

 

I don't know how deep your relationship is with her, and how long it has existed et cetera (and as I don't have the time at the moment, I can't look in other threads now, so lack of information at the moment). But as long as you don't force the issue, you'll be left in limbo. She might think of you as a great friend, but that's not the way you'd like her to think about you.

 

As long as you act as her safety net, she will by relying on you for the emotional support, but not share with you the benefits of a relationship. In all honesty I can't give you advice how to resolve the situation further.

 

Good luck

[iceisles]

I've told her that I want a relationship with her, but only after her past issues are resolved. I also explained that I could not (and would not) remain just friends with someone I have a romantic interest in. If she ultimately decides to go back with her ex and just wants to be friends with me, I'll be heading for the exits...at least until I become interested in someone else.

[Hund1976]

You are in a horrible situation. She most likely considers you her friend but her heart still belongs to her ex. Probably the best thing to do is to stay away from her for the time being. Even if she does break up with the guy she will probably need some time to get over it before she is ready for a new relationship. You don't want to wind up being the rebound guy, or the friend whose shoulder she cries on. Your best bet is to stay away for awhile and then the next time you run into her maybe she'll be single and ready to go out with you.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by Hund1976

You are in a horrible situation. She most likely considers you her friend but her heart still belongs to her ex. Probably the best thing to do is to stay away from her for the time being. Even if she does break up with the guy she will probably need some time to get over it before she is ready for a new relationship. You don't want to wind up being the rebound guy, or the friend whose shoulder she cries on. Your best bet is to stay away for awhile and then the next time you run into her maybe she'll be single and ready to go out with you.

 

I completely agree with everything you just said. The thing is, she hardly ever talks to me about him, so I'm not really a shoulder to cry on. We have spoken for 90+ minutes for 12 consecutive nights, so obviously she likes me a lot and considers me dating material. I have made my position clear - that I don't want to be a rebound, and that I am not happy with being just friends forever. She seems to be totally fine with that. I don't mind talking to her every day, but we have to be moving forward each day - even if it's just a little.

[Hund1976]

I would tread carefully, girls can do some whacky things. You don't want to be getting to into her and then all of a sudden she says one day "I'm sorry I decided to get back with my ex to work things out" and then your left standing there alone. She will need to sort out her feelings before you guys can have a true relationship. So just make sure you don't put too much on the line until her head is on straight.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by Hund1976

So just make sure you don't put too much on the line until her head is on straight.

 

Yeah, I won't. I've made that mistake before. Like The Who say, "I won't get fooled again."

[iceisles]

For the first time, she opened up to me big time last night. She said she wants him to love her again, and even went to far so say that "Maybe I'll just have sex with him - that will make him love me again, right?" I explained that sex is never the answer to a conflict and should not be treated like a band-aid for deeper problems. This is especially true since he broke up with her because he wasn't getting it enough. If she gives in to him, he will assume that she thought things over and agreed with his selfish notions. I think she realizes that jumping him will only complicate things, but of course I fear her hormones may overtake her very shaky sense of logic right now.

 

She obviously cares for him a lot, so I sent her a very firm e-mail last night. I basically said that we can keep talking for now, but I want to be kept out of all that crap. Honestly, she can't expect me to be objective when I have a crush on her anyway. And since I have mostly negative things to say about her ex, it will always seem like I'm trying to keep them apart.

 

Personally, I don't care if she humps the guy or not. I don't care if she wants to be with me or not - at least until her mind clears and she can make a definitive decision. In the meantime, I am going to stand way back in the shadows. She may be crazy for me, but as long as she's holding on to thoughts of him, I'm off limits. Plain and simple.

[d'Arthez]

So sorry

 

She did not open to you, last night, in fact she closed to you last night. This might seem strange. But she talked so much about her ex, and in ways that must have made you realize that a potential relationship between you and her, without the drama, is at least months away.

She sounds very much confused. Don't expect her to act rationally, even on the things she believes to be true. Women or men in love, with an emotional hangover don't act rationally, especially to the person(s) of their desires.

 

It is good to see that you have sent a firm email to her. You'd be driving yourself insane everytime you speak about him. And as you know the guy personally (it seems) you can't advice her at all. If you don't know the guy at all, you would be able to talk in plain terms about why she should not return to him, solely based upon her description of the break up and the relationship. Either way, it would be a torment for you.

 

Likewise, if she is going to act upon her confusion, you'll have some sort of answer. And probably she will be dumped again a few months down the line. Maybe the answer definitive in your mind, maybe not. That is for you to decide, not her.

[iceisles]

The only problem is that I am clearly the first guy who has ever truly been there for her. She thinks I am so much different/better than any other guy, and feels awful that she can't move past her ex. I don't think she is playing me - after all, they've only been broken up 3 weeks, which is nothing. I fear that backing off too far will make me seem like "every other guy" to her, effectively destroying my chances with her in the future. Therefore, I need to strike a delicate balance of some kind, which is why I'm going to talk to her but not volunteer any opinions on things between her and her ex. I do think that we would make an outstanding couple, and I'm willing to wait around to see how the cards play out. I will keep dating and having fun with other girls in the interim, however.

[d'Arthez]

I did not mean to imply in my post that she was playing you. Playing someone requires a concious act of will. She is confused, therefore in fact not playing you. Of course that does not mean your feelings can't be hurt because of her confusion.

 

What you are going to do seems sensible. I can understand your fears of backing off too much. But it can also be the wake-up call she desperate needs to snap out of her confusion. If she truly believes you are the best for her, and feels herself entitled to the best she can get (which might be another hidden problem), she will come to you.

 

There might be some minor issues for her, which make it difficult for her to move on to you. She might not feel entitled to the best guy she can get. Maybe she has a hard time to face the fact that she might have been used in her previous relationship. I don't know her, so the only one here who can observe that, is you.

 

How long have you known her?

[iceisles]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

How long have you known her?

 

About a month, but we have spoken every day on the phone for 90+ mins and hung out last weekend, so obviously we have an attachment to each other. She has a lot of self-confidence problems and has said that she has just gotten used to guys treating her like crap. She kind of thinks that's the best she can do, which is why I think she likes me so much, and which is why I would love to show her that romance can be good. Unfortunately, she has quite a few strings she'll need to cut free from before I am ready to be with her. Unless she realizes that her ex is a jerk and fully commits to me, I don't want to be with her.

 

IMO, she likes me a lot, probably even wants to be with me, but she typically has run back to the comfort/"safety" of the ex instead of finding the inner strength to start something brand new. This is why I'm waiting, but not putting all my eggs in one basket here.

[d'Arthez]

About a month, but we have spoken every day on the phone for 90+ mins and hung out last weekend, so obviously we have an attachment to each other. She has a lot of self-confidence problems and has said that she has just gotten used to guys treating her like crap. She kind of thinks that's the best she can do, which is why I think she likes me so much, and which is why I would love to show her that romance can be good. Unfortunately, she has quite a few strings she'll need to cut free from before I am ready to be with her. Unless she realizes that her ex is a jerk and fully commits to me, I don't want to be with her.

 

IMO, she likes me a lot, probably even wants to be with me, but she always runs back to the comfort/"safety" of the ex instead of finding the inner strength to start something brand new. This is why I'm waiting, but not putting all my eggs in one basket here.

 

She wants to be with you, but feels she does not deserve you. Staying around her will not make her feel good enough for herself, and your agreement that she should have cut the strings won't be beneficial for the both of you either.

 

But also realize that she can't make herself ready for you to be Ms. Perfect. She needs help, from people who can help her to rise to Ms. Perfect. She can't get that help from her ex-boyfriend, or anyone else who doesn't mind treating her like crap. Deep down the both of you know that, and that's why she appreciates you so much. Because you offer her support.

 

What follows might be controversial and almost anti-logical. But I want to share this story with you:

 

One good friend of mine wormed herself in a relationship with a great guy. My friend had a lot of issues, and of course the great guy also was not perfect. He never made her doubt that she could always fall back on him. Once inside the relationship she was able to slowly resolve her issues. And there were a lot of issues.

At first of course there existed a strange situation in which neither of them knew what to expect, and how to behave. But they found out, and are still together, almost ten years later now.

 

The paradox in your current situation might be, that she needs to commit to you, before she can forget the ex.

[iceisles]

That's an interesting story, and I agree about the paradox. She is obviously crazy about me - she IM's and/or calls me every morning before she leaves for work, always talks to me every night, and has been so incredibly appreciative of everything I have done for her. She has always kept her promises about when she would call or e-mail me, as well. She has said that she has never met anyone like me, and while she is not used to it, it's a welcome change. If the ex wasn't in the picture, we would probably be together right now.

 

It may take some time, but I think this girl (with my help) will break free from her ex and will want to pursue something with me. Will she still miss him and get upset over that failed relationship for awhile? Of course. But if and when I sense her heart is with me, I'm not letting this one get away. She has so many incredible qualities and I find it absolutely baffling why so many guys have treated her like crap all these years.

[d'Arthez]

She is obviously crazy about me - she IM's and/or calls me every morning before she leaves for work, always talks to me every night, and has been so incredibly appreciative of everything I have done for her. She has always kept her promises about when she would call or e-mail me, as well. She has said that she has never met anyone like me, and while she is not used to it, it's a welcome change. If the ex wasn't in the picture, we would probably be together right now.

 

Look at her behavior. She is already showing a lot of commitment to you. Be appreciative of the fact. You can't expect someone who has been down in the dumps, and who feels she deserves to be there, to be Ms. Perfect. Right now she is showing her good side to you.

 

You don't want to create a lot of distance between her and you. She is showing her commitment to you, even though the both of you don't dare to call this a relationship. Maybe you should take the gamble on the paradox. Especially if she has brought up the subject of a future relationship with you.

 

This can only work, if she wants to get over the ex, even though she might still be finding a way to get there. You want her to get over her ex, but don't know how to support her. Sometimes wounds sustained during a relationship can only be healed in a new relationship. Depends on the issues she has with her ex boyfriend. That is not necessarily the reason they broke up.

 

Whatever you decide to do, it won't be easy for you or for her. You realize that.

 

As always every generalization can prove untrue in a particular case.

[iceisles]

I called her at work today and she is doing MUCH better. She said she just had an emotional breakdown last night and realizes that she wasn't making much sense with the whole "I'll have sex with him" thing. She told me that she is a strong person, and I said that I've known that all along. I reaffirmed that's one thing about her I find incredibly attractive. She said she is going to make it clear to her ex that Friday's get-together will be non-sexual, especially after his most-recent e-mail asking if he could "see her boobs again". This guy clearly only had sex on his mind before the breakup, and it's obvious that's the only thing on his mind after the breakup.

 

You might as well put a picture of her next to "confused" in the dictionary, because she is a textbook example of it. I know she likes me a lot, and while I wish she had zero interest in him anymore, I don't think she's far enough along in the emotional process to feel that way. I'm almost wondering if she wants to see him Friday to confirm that he is a jerk moreso than actually expecting to have anything productive come out of it. If she doesn't let her hormones get to her, and he tries to make a sexual advance, that should seal his fate. Part of me is actually hoping he will try something so she can shut it down and start to close the door on him for good.

[d'Arthez]

What kind of event is taking place? Is it a private get together, or is it more of a public get together?

[iceisles]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

What kind of event is taking place? Is it a private get together, or is it more of a public get together?

 

He invited her over to his place Friday to watch movies. I don't know if you agree, but "watching movies" sound like guy-talk for "let me make some moves on you when the lights are off."

[d'Arthez]

I agree with what you wrote on your last post.

 

Whatever reason she has, it seems that she has decided she would have to see with her own eyes that he is only interested in her because of the sex. If she wants to go, never prevent her going to her ex. Probably she feels she must do this by herself. But that should not prevent you from inspiring her. Between the both of you, you know what that can possibly mean, if she can resolve the ex issue succesfully .

 

Speak with her about what she expects to happen Friday night. Not to judge her, or anything, but just plain understanding conversation. As she is confused, conversation will be beneficial for the both of you. It may clear things up for her, and give her valuable insight to where she should set her boundaries, and maintain them.

[iceisles]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

I agree with what you wrote on your last post.

 

Whatever reason she has, it seems that she has decided she would have to see with her own eyes that he is only interested in her because of the sex. If she wants to go, never prevent her going to her ex. Probably she feels she must do this by herself. But that should not prevent you from inspiring her. Between the both of you, you know what that can possibly mean, if she can resolve the ex issue successfully .

 

Speak with her about what she expects to happen Friday night. Not to judge her, or anything, but just plain understanding conversation. As she is confused, conversation will be beneficial for the both of you. It may clear things up for her, and give her valuable insight to where she should set her boundaries, and maintain them.

 

Your posts are very helpful, thanks. I agree that she wants to see things with her own eyes. What worries me some is that she has a touch of Bipolar disorder, and during the mania phase, a highly elevated sex drive is a very common. She has told me that there are times when she wants it all the time. Obviously, I am worried that her logic may be compromised if she is in such an elevated mood Friday. I would hope that she would resist the temptation, but I can not confidently say that will happen. And just to clarify, she is not promiscuous - but she enjoys sex with people she cares about.

 

I will just casually coach her to go there with certain expectations, and to make sure that HE does most of the talking. He invited her over, and she has to see what the deal is. IMO, he is not making any effort whatsoever to try and win her back. He just pops back in the picture when he's looking for some ass.

[iceisles]

I can't believe I forgot this, but he recently told her, "I love you, but I'm happier being single." What kind of guy says that crap? If you love someone, you want to be with them, right? You would stand by their side and fight for them when things got tough, wouldn't you? I think that line tells me that he's just looking for some fun in the interim while he dates other people. If a girl said to me, "I love you, but I'm happier being single", I would say adios!