Do you believe in god?

[umirano]

Not try to start crap. But, they say that humans are not functionally able or created to be monogamous. That we're supposed to have multiple partners. If this is the case. Then why the hell does it hurt so much to get cheated on. It shouldn't if we are following scientific principals. And yet, we get crushed when it happens.

 

Actually the two (hating to be cheated on and cheating a lot) do not exclude each other. Both are 'beneficial' for spreading one's genes. What our nature "makes" us do does not have to feel good all the time.

 

We do stupid things all the time, that we know will bite us later. We gamble, we get drunk and hate the hang over, we fall for someone, knowing it can't work out. Just because something can be scientifically explained and "makes sense" it doesn't have to feel right. Eating meat feels right for most of humanity. Yet very few people would eat as much meat if they had to kill every calf and every chicken themselves.

 

Rejecting the idea of a god does not equate with naturalism (= arguing natural behavior is the good or agreeable behavior).

[umirano]

Despite all the bad that has happened to me in the last year, yes, I believe in God. I believe humans have free will, which He gave them.

He made the board, the pieces and the rules. Where's the free will?

 

The sadness of the world, the hurt put on others by people they love does not negate the existence of God.

The existence of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god is not possible. Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, having an evil, omnipotent god would explain a lot of things But I guess that's not what the average believer puts forward. And neither do I. I think all the suffering in the world is perfectly explained by the nature of our universe. It's a place that allows for some personal growth and fulfillment of dreams, but it has to be hard earned in competition with the rest of the universe.

 

But after I found out about my husband's affair, after a year of dealing with horrible health issues, more than one tragedy in my family and then a miscarriage, I seriously questioned it.

 

This past year has made me question a lot -- yes, God being one of them.

I'm sorry for the tough things you went through. Good luck with the questioning. I hope you'll find satisfying answers.

[umirano]

In a purely abstract way I would say that it is impossible to conceive of this World and in fact the Universe having come into existence without there having been a "Super Intelligence" or a "Creator" to have been the architect of such complex systems and processes as exist and which guide and control everything that goes on in the "World" and "Universe" as we know it. Can you imagine a beautiful flower coming up without there being a Celestial Being behind the fact? Babies being born, the Seasons occurring with regularity and so on and so forth.

All those things are already explained. Without a god.

 

So, you're saying it's hard, or impossible even, to conceive of the universe being here without the intervention of a super intelligence. Why does this assumption, and it really isn't anything else, not apply to the existence of the super intelligence? In simpler words: If the universe needs a creator, why doesn't the creator need a creator?

 

The fact is that we expect a God or the Almighty to intervene in everything that we do or advise us on our courses of action. The fact is that the Almighty has given us two very important and unique gifts, which he has not given any other animal( Yes we are animals in spite of our conceit and elevated thinking about ourselves)and these are Intellect and Free Will. Having given us these he has set us free to make our own choices and take our own courses of action as we go along ion this life.

Do you have any proof that we actually have free will? You don't? Then don't call it a fact.

 

Our progress of our lives is the result of the choices that we continually make in our lives as we go forward.

I doubt that. What you become in life largely depends on where you're born, and at what time. If you're a child in Ruanda and your parents get shot in their heads 4 weeks after your birth and you get sent off to a refugee camp, become force-recruited as a child soldier and your limb is blown of by a mine, you can wish to become an athlete, or a heart surgeon for that matter, all you want. Your chances are minimal.

The kind of society that very remotely allows for something like your fantasy of total self responsibility is an equal opportunity society. Based on human law. No god, no religion has ever provided anything like that. Earth as a whole certainly isn't that kind of place.

 

Some people choose to become athletes and they practice hard and set high standards for themselves, denying themselves pleasure and enjoyment while their peers are out doing that exactly, till they achieve what they want which is a medal/medals in some International event. Their achievements are the result of the choices that they made continually along the way to their success.

Yeah... I find it odd that anyone with a functioning brain would say something like that. Read the news. Many sports competitions are heavily tampered. Doping and staged results, betting scandals, you name it.

 

 

Similarly if someone chooses to become a drug addict then by making choices along the way which deepen their habit, they end up become human wrecks worthless to everyone including themselves.

What you're saying is very offensive to people who are sick from an addiction and to their families. Research shows that for instance alcoholism is heavily correlated with certain genes and their expression. You could as well say that deaf people chose to be deaf. And that garbage about them being worthless is just arrogant, heartless religious ugliness. You're not holier than anyone else. You just showed you're aggressive and that you think of yourself very highly.

 

Unfortunately there's no god to punish you for your sin against fellow humans.

[2sunny]

HE?

 

I suppose you are assuming your God is male?

 

There's no evidence that God is male or female. What if God is neither - or both? Or none of those at all?

 

God could be a simple concept = such as love...

[Just a Guy]

I'm sorry Umirano you are right and I am wrong. Thank you for for educating me. Have a good day!

[Spectre]

This thread has the potential to go into some..weird territory. People are weird about religion. I'm actually surprised this topic has still been kept open. I guess I will answer that no I do not believe in "God". The biblical God is not a nice person/deity anyways, so even if I was given proof it existed I would think "you are kind of a douche". Actually, I'd be quite terrified. Old Testament God thought people should be executed if they did things so horrible such as..working on a Sunday. That isn't me slandering any religion, that is actually in the bible. Just so the mods know I am not just making crap up, but yeah..I find the idea of evolution much more preferable to some magic man in the sky who has racked up a body count higher then any single living person ever, in history.

 

I don't know anymore. That feels scary to put that in writing, for the world to see.

 

I grew up in a Christian household. Have continued to go to church, and about 12 years ago, really recommitted myself.

 

Now I find that I'm questioning everything. Is it because of my A? Am I just trying to justify? My problem is that I've had this moment of thinking, my goodness, the idea of god is just freakin' crazy!! There is some magical being in 'heaven' watching us, judging us, asking us to worship him? Listening to our prayers, even though as an omniscient being, he should know what we're even going to pray about? And he intercedes with some and not others? He created us for what? So that we could be 'tested' on this earth? And if we pass the test we get to live FOREVER?? Really?

 

Sorry...not meaning to be disrespectful. I guess I'm just curious about those who have cheated, and how you reconcile that with your faith.

 

I can truly say I don't have guilt, from a god perspective. I have guilt for hurting my H and family. My AP (or xAP??) is Christian and he has TONS of guilt, though the opposite of mine. He is more guilty for 'sinning' than feeling bad towards is W.

 

Thoughts? Would love opinions here.

 

My question would be..why(and how) do you know how much guilt the man you cheated with is feeling?

Edited July 7, 2014 by Spectre

[Spectre]

Drifter, I think we are actually agreeing here. If you and your spouse decide it's okay to have sex with someone else, it's okay. I don't think some deity is going to smite the couple, or send them to hell for it.

 

Plus, how terrifying would it be to know some omnipotent being is concerned with who you personally boink?

[jnel921]

Faith in and of itself is not much of a deterrent when it comes to immorality. Faith is a belief in something without empirical/material evidence, not a guarantee of morality. In fact, some would argue that it can actually make it easier to commit a "sin" when you can be forgiven so easily.

 

Still, the grounds of a relationship are a contract between 2 or more people. Those people can be gay, straight, monogamous, swingers, etc. and choose the boundaries they feel comfortable with. Marriage was created by humans and humans get to choose the rules for their marriage. Marriage is not some fundamental law of physics that cannot be changed.

 

It is a deterrent, as you will have to answer to a higher power in the next life. As far as forgiveness... Yes The Lord will forgive your sins, but it is you The BS or BH that need to do the forgiving. M rules are simple love, honor and cherish. Where is it in the M license that I signed that he vowed to lie, hurt and cheat?..

 

There are basic rules for M....anything outside of that is an excuse to cheat.... But let's see...it seems to some here it justifies open Marriages. If you need more than one D*** or P*** then why get married???

[soccerrprp]

But that's kind of the catch, isn't it. Why be in a "committed" relationship, especially a married one, if you're interested in having sex with someone else? And you're damn right about not being able to do this without hurting someone else, especially one who isn't on board with your philosophy of casual and meaningless sex. Guess I'm too old fashioned. I've always believed that married couples should be faithful to each other physically and emotionally. Looks like I'm in the minority view. Sad really.

 

I don't know, thummper, I tend to believe that MOST are with you or want to believe it. Just their experience has tainted their views to the point of trying to rationalize it (infidelity), but not so deep down, they want to be in a monogamous, healthy, loving, faithful relationship.

[compulsivedancer]

I don't know, thummper, I tend to believe that MOST are with you or want to believe it. Just their experience has tainted their views to the point of trying to rationalize it (infidelity), but not so deep down, they want to be in a monogamous, healthy, loving, faithful relationship.

 

Since thummper's post was directed to me originally, I'm going to answer this. My views on open marriages have nothing to do with my infidelity. H and I have discussed the topic since early on our marriage. We always agreed that it was morally fine, but pragmatically challenging.

 

If anything, my infidelity made me LESS interested in an open relationship because my eyes are now truly open to all the practical challenges of consensual non-monogamy. Emotions are messy and irrational. That means I can believe something rationally but not be able to emotionally handle it personally.

 

The Old Testiment laws require all kinds of bizarre things that seem to be related more to health codes and building codes than to actual moral good. Being killed for having sex outside marriage fits in well with that society, but not so much with today's society.

[thummper]

CD, I hope you didn't take that as a personal affront! I merely don't understand how a person can be married and then have a sexual relationship with someone outside that marriage. To me, that makes the whole concept of marriage somewhat meaningless. Like I mentioned, I'm VERY old-fashioned when it comes to fidelity among marrieds. It seems to make me somewhat of a dinosaur in a society in which more and more anything goes. I watched a series on TV about a group of swingers, and I noticed that a lot of distrust and jealously began creeping into their relationships. There seemed to be some real trouble brewing. The series apparently ended without bringing these problems to a head. Again, please don't take my comments personally. You and H seem like fine people.

[Spectre]

CD, I hope you didn't take that as a personal affront! I merely don't understand how a person can be married and then have a sexual relationship with someone outside that marriage. To me, that makes the whole concept of marriage somewhat meaningless. Like I mentioned, I'm VERY old-fashioned when it comes to fidelity among marrieds. It seems to make me somewhat of a dinosaur in a society in which more and more anything goes. I watched a series on TV about a group of swingers, and I noticed that a lot of distrust and jealously began creeping into their relationships. There seemed to be some real trouble brewing. The series apparently ended without bringing these problems to a head. Again, please don't take my comments personally. You and H seem like fine people.

 

I have to agree, for me..part of being in love means NOT wanting other people. This isn't the same thing as saying you will never again be attracted to another person, I just think at the end of the day it should be your spouse you go home to.

 

I don't think you are old fashioned, I was born in the mid 80's, and I was raised in an age where women were not slut shamed for embracing their sexuality as much as they were in the past, and I am not one of those guys who wants a woman I am with to be a virgin or anything. At the same time, I don't want her to of been the town pump either. I want a woman who loves me to such an extent that she never seriously entertains the idea of sex with someone else.

 

I'm not trying to knock open marriages, if both parties agree that is fine, but for me..if I am in love with a woman then she is enough for me, I don't need to go out and screw other women as well, I won't feel less satisfied at having not been allowed to do so..especially if I am married..since the reason I married her would of been exactly because she is the only one I want for the rest of my life.

 

That is why I agree I will never understand open marriage, since the very concept of marriage suggests the opposite of that. If I want to still sleep with other women then for me that would be a sign I'm not ready for marriage in the first place. I realize others view marriage differently.

 

I can also identify with feeling older then you really are due to views on sex. I'm still a young guy and I enjoy sex, but I would never ever want to be a swinger or in an open relationship and I would never want to date a person who would be into those things. I am ALL for some nice wild kinky sex, but I am also ALL for doing all that with just the person I am with. That to me is part of the fun, looking for new ways to spice up your sex life that do not involve what to me seems like the easy way out, which is to just go bang others. You can find all kinds of ways to become emotionally closer to your partner in trying to figure out ways to spice it up without involving third parties.

 

Also while I do know couples who have been swingers or in an open marriage and were happy, but for every couple like that there are several more who tried it and it caused irreparable damage to their marriage. I can't even count the amount of times I have seen a situation like "we had a 3some and now my wife is jealous" or "we had a 3some and now my husband can't get the image of me and that other guy out of his mind", etc. For me it is kind of like playing russian roulette with your marriage. Even if you *think* you would be okay with it..it doesn't mean you actually will be after all is said and done.

 

I remember a couple I was acquainted with a few years ago, they had a 3some with another man. The other man ended up causing the wife to orgasm during the act. After that the marriage fell to pieces because the H just couldn't have sex with his wife because every time he'd hear her moaning in pleasure..his mind would just conjure that image of her moaning in pleasure while another guy makes her orgasm. The wife didn't love this OM or want to be with him, and she was of course upset at how hurt the husband was.

 

She did everything she could to try to get him past it..and so did the husband. He even acknowledged that he should of never agreed to do it in the first place, but that he also couldn't help how he feels about it after it is done. About 7-8 months later..one day the H came home from work and told the wife he just couldn't do it anymore, and they got divorced and the wife was absolutely devastated. It made me sad because..there was so much pain being caused, so much damage being done to their lives..and for what, a one time sex act? Just one of the reasons I will never play with fire like that. I would get any experimenting like that out of the way before I decide to commit to one person(which is exactly what marriage is supposed to be IMO).

Edited July 8, 2014 by Spectre

[Just a Guy]

Sex is a basic human drive and depending on one's testosterone levels it's degree varies from one person to another. As I had mentioned before we human beings have been blessed, if you will, with Free Will and Intellect. We can choose to be monogamous or non monogamous and religion and morality do not have anything to do with it, at least as far as Nature or our Creator or what you will is concerned. If Nature was concerned with morality then fathers impregnating their daughters or sons doing the same with their mothers would not happen. However biology does not distinguish between the sperm of a father while impregnating his daughter or a son doing the same to his mother. I know what I am stating is extreme and may be considered objectionable by some but the fact is that it happens in real life. My point here is that this whole moral question being brought up does not really stand the test.

 

Morality and Religion are creations of the human mind. They were introduced eons ago to keep the wild behaviour of human beings in check. Later as civilization developed and became more sophisticated morality and religious practices became more protracted and complex. The priestly class made sure that they kept a tight control over their flock by propagating and perpetuating more and more complex rules and regulations for correct behaviour. The idea of abstinence was introduced by the priestly class to keep people in check and make them feel guilty if they broke the rules. People were encouraged to go to church or to the synagogue or the temple on a regular basis to have their sins cleansed and then many people would go back from church and happily sin again for the next week till the next Sunday. Free will and one's own intellect which was a gift of Nature were given the go by. People were programmed to behave in certain ways and believe certain things(Among them that sex was sinful) and this got ingrained in humanity over eons.

 

The fact is that as intelligent species we have learned that in breeding is harmful to the propagation of the human race. As such fathers should not be impregnating daughters or sons do the same with their mothers. Because Nature loves diversity it has built within us the inclination to 'stray'. Our human genes get reinforced if males and females alternate partners. Also Nature in built an instinct in males to spread their genes far and wide. This was because in the wild males were much more vulnerable than they are now. They had to fight for their harems and often got killed in the process. As such they did their best to spread their genes while they could and before they got killed. These instincts although now very subdued in the modern human are still very much potent and present. They may be dormant but they are not absent. The Church and most religions have striven to control and subjugate these instincts but in reality have not succeeded. Also the fact is that as Intelligent and sophisticated beings we, of our own free will decide NOT to act on our instincts as otherwise most men would be rampaging bulls and most women would be breeding factories coupling with any and all men who they came across!

 

Having said this the fact is that our instincts boil just below the surface of our conscious thought and feelings and some times they just burst through as a volcano explodes into activity. This is when you have men and women, who you would never have thought capable of doing so, indulging in sexual escapades or having affairs.

 

So I guess that affairs are something that we will have to live with for a long time to come. The wrong and the right of affairs is only so far as our agreements with our spouses goes. If it was tacitly agreed that the marriage was to be affair free then when one partner breaks that code, feelings will get hurt and turmoil will occur. It is very much like a business partnership. It is agreed by the partners (with legal safe guards) that they will be honest and up front with their partners about all matters and if one partner breaks that agreement then legal recourse is taken by the other partners to sort out matters.

 

Well I guess this has been long and I will call this off here now. Cheers!

Edited July 9, 2014 by Just a Guy

[Just a Guy]

Sex is a basic human drive and depending on one's testosterone levels it's degree varies from one person to another. As I had mentioned before we human beings have been blessed, if you will, with Free Will and Intellect. We can choose to be monogamous or non monogamous and religion and morality do not have anything to do with it, at least as far as Nature or our Creator or what you will is concerned. If Nature was concerned with morality then fathers impregnating their daughters or sons doing the same with their mothers would not happen. However biology does not distinguish between the sperm of a father while impregnating his daughter or a son doing the same to his mother. I know what I am stating is extreme and may be considered objectionable by some but the fact is that it happens in real life. My point here is that this whole moral question being brought up does not really stand the test.

 

Morality and Religion are creations of the human mind. They were introduced eons ago to keep the wild behaviour of human beings in check. Later as civilization developed and became more sophisticated morality and religious practices became more protracted and complex. The priestly class made sure that they kept a tight control over their flock by propagating and perpetuating more and more complex rules and regulations for correct behaviour. The idea of abstinence was introduced by the priestly class to keep people in check and make them feel guilty if they broke the rules. People were encouraged to go to church or to the synagogue or the temple on a regular basis to have their sins cleansed and then many people would go back from church and happily sin again for the next week till the next Sunday. Free will and one's own intellect which was a gift of Nature were given the go by. People were programmed to behave in certain ways and believe certain things(Among them that sex was sinful) and this got ingrained in humanity over eons.

 

The fact is that as intelligent species we have learned that in breeding is harmful to the propagation of the human race. As such fathers should not be impregnating daughters or sons do the same with their mothers. Because Nature loves diversity it has built within us the inclination to 'stray'. Our human genes get reinforced if males and females alternate partners. Also Nature in built an instinct in males to spread their genes far and wide. This was because in the wild males were much more vulnerable than they are now. They had to fight for their harems and often got killed in the process. As such they did their best to spread their genes while they could and before they got killed. These instincts although now very subdued in the modern human are still very much potent and present. They may be dormant but they are absent. The Church and most religions have striven to control and subjugate these instincts but in reality have not succeeded. Also the fact is that as Intelligent and sophisticated beings we, of our own free will decide NOT to act on our instincts as otherwise most men would be rampaging bulls and most women would be breeding factories coupling with any and all men who they came across!

 

Having said this the fact is that our instincts boil just below the surface of our conscious thought and feelings and some time they just burst through as a volcano explodes into activity. This is when you have men and women, who you would never have thought capable of doing so, indulging in sexual escapades or having affairs.

 

So I guess that affairs are something that we will have to live with for a long time to come. The wrong and the right of affairs is only so far as our agreements with our spouses. If it was tacitly agreed that the marriage was to be affair free then when one partner breaks that code feelings will get hurt and turmoil will occur. It is very much like a business partnership. It is agreed by the partners (with legal safe guards) that they will be honest and up front with their partners about all matters and if one partner breaks that agreement then legal recourse is taken by the other partners to sort out matters.

 

Well I guess this has been long and I will call this off here now. Cheers!

[Journee]

I guess I never really looked at my faith as "Well, I'm saved and a Christian now, so I'll never mistep, sin or falter again." I know better. I struggle within myself not because of or despite my faith but because I'm human. I have no doubt in the existence of God and I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior who died on the cross for my sins. Sins that are already paid for and covered in the blood of Christ. All that from a person that has told a lie, said things she has regretted, hurt people she loved and at one very dark time no longer wanted to live. I'm a sinner and I've fallen from grace several times. I can admit my troubles and shortcomings.

 

How does one reconcile any of their sins? Not just infidelity? Well, for me...I pray, I repent, I tell God I need him that I cannot do it on my own. It is silly to some but it's my life's blood. I pray not because I'm perfect or have all the answers (or any of them at this point and time) I pray because of the opposite.

 

I have seen and been subject to some of the most unholy things on earth. I've done things I'm not proud of. When the world turns it's back on you and writes you off. For some there is only one place to go. I don't deserve forgivenes but it's given to me. I don't need it from the general public, from society or anywhere else. What I need to learn to do the most is forgive myself.

 

So, since I just stepped all over brevity. Yes, I believe in God.

[Just a Guy]

In my earlier post I said that we humans have been gifted with Free Will and intellect to help steer us through the maze of this life. I wanted to add that, as Journee has said, there is the element of faith. Faith is that extra rational factor which helps us humans through unknown and uncharted waters when we have nothing else to hold on to, yet have a certainty in our hearts that all is going to be well in the end. It is as the Bible says that those who have faith equivalent to a single mustard seed will overcome any problem howsoever insurmountable it may seem. Quite frankly, one does not have to be very religious to have faith. Faith, in fact, is NOT the preserve of the religious or pious. Faith is the power that even the least of human beings is entitled to, irrespective of whether they consider themselves to be sinners or holy men. Also, it is the factor that empowers the lowliest of human beings to achieve the loftiest of goals.

 

I also have to say that I personally do not believe in the concept of Sin. Sin is a concept, which again, was introduced by Religious leaders to make people in their flock feel guilty and thereby being able to exercise control over them. It is a negative concept meant to demean ordinary people and make them feel ashamed of themselves. I believe that anything of a negative nature such as this is not conducive to a person's psychological and mental good health. I accept that people do wrong, sometimes things which are gravely wrong. But to call an error a sin is not in the interests of that person. If a person has done wrong he or she needs that it be pointed out to him/her and that then they are expected to take corrective action to right the wrong. Some of these concepts have helped propagate the power that religion continues to hold over us to this day. I think one of the reasons that Journee felt so low at one point in her life that she did not want to live is because of this. If God or Nature gives us life and continues to sustain us through thick and thin then who are religious leaders to condemn us with a concept so harsh that we would want to take our lives?

 

So is there a God? Well call Him/Her by any name you wish to but I think that by denying the existence of God we would be doing ourselves a great disservice. I think everything hinges on this one fact that there is a God. He/She is the Lynchpin that holds everything together in this tortured world of ours!Cheers!

Edited July 13, 2014 by Just a Guy

[Just a Guy]

In my earlier post I said that we humans have been gifted with Free Will and intellect to help steer us through the maze of this life. I wanted to add that, as Journee has said, there is the element of faith. Faith is that extra rational factor which helps us humans through unknown and uncharted waters when we have nothing else to hold on to, yet have a certainty in our hearts that all is going to be well in the end. It is as the Bible says that those who have faith equivalent to a single mustard seed will overcome any problem howsoever insurmountable it may seem. Quite frankly, one does not have to be very religious to have faith. Faith, in fact, is NOT the preserve of the religious or pious. Faith is the power that even the least of human beings is entitled to, irrespective of whether they consider themselves to be sinners or holy men. Also, it is the factor that empowers the lowliest of human beings to achieve the loftiest of goals.

 

I also have to say that I personally do not believe in the concept of Sin. Sin is a concept, which again, was introduced by Religious leaders to make people in their flock feel guilty and thereby being able to exercise control over them. It is a negative concept meant to demean ordinary people and make them feel ashamed of themselves. I believe that anything of a negative nature such as this is not conducive to a person's psychological and mental good health. I accept that people do wrong, sometimes things which are gravely wrong. But to call an error a sin is not in the interests of that person. If a person has done wrong he or she needs that it be pointed out to him/her and that then they are expected to take corrective action to right the wrong. Some of these concepts have helped propagate the power that religion continues to hold over us to this day. I think one of the reasons that Journee felt so low at one point in her life that she did not want to live is because of this. If God or Nature gives us life and continues to sustain us through thick and thin then who are religious leaders to condemn us with a concept so harsh that we would want to take our lives?

 

So is there a God? Well call Him/Her by any name you wish to but I think that by denying the existence of God we would be doing ourselves a great disservice. I think everything hinges on this one fact that there is a God. He/She is the Lynchpin that holds everything together in this tortured world of ours!Cheers!