joeymas Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Wow, I am reading some of these posts and my biggest question is: Why do most of the people here feel the need to compete with their spouse's activities? Be it: Sports, Porn, TV, Other People People do not give up their identity when they marry... They enhance it. A husband or wife should either embrace the things their spouse's enjoy or decide that they should move on if they can not deal with these things. To me, this is the same as having a bird for a pet. A bird's most prized asset is it's ability to fly. To capture it, clip it's wings and place it in a cage is the most selfish thing a person can do. Why would you treat your spouse the same? Back when my wife was having an on-line relationship, I told her this: "I will not tell you to quit communicating with this man, but in the same respect, I will not live with it." She left for a while and later decided what she wanted. We have been married for 9 years. This happened 6 years ago. Stop trying to police your marriage, it never works.
Owl Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 So, would you have simply walked away if she had decided to keep communicating with this OM online? Or what would you have done had she lied to you about it, and you found out later? How is what you did NOT competing?
Author joeymas Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 Good questions. If she would have chose to continue the relationship, well that would make it obvious that the marriage was over. By putting her in a position to make a choice I have taken the ball and put it into her court. Now she can make a decision instead of me having to change my personality in such a way that I win her back. Therefore I am not in competition with the other man. The worst part about a lie is that you never know it happened until it is too late. Now that things are out in the open you can again force a decision. I don't believe in fighting for a relationship. If you need to watch over your spouse to insure they are not cheating on you, then your relationship has already failed.
Owl Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 So you have no doubts that this will ever happen again? Also, so WHY do you think your wife started an EA to begin with? I don't know if you've read anything about the whole "emotional needs" thing, but does it occur to you that there are factors on BOTH sides that lead up to her looking for something outside of the marriage? From what I've seen, typically there is a "reason" that this happens...this is NOT justifying an affair mind you, but if things were so perfect, why did she begin to have one in the first place? Not attacking you...my wife too had an emotional affair. But...I can look back and see what it was she was looking for in him that she wasn't getting from me at the time....or more accurately, what she was UNABLE to get from me at the time. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's NOT changing your personality "just to keep them". It's realizing your own stake in the marriage, and working to make the marriage the best you can for BOTH of you. Just delivering an ultimatum like you did, without working to improve the marriage strikes me as more likely to create the environment for it to happen again. What gives you the confidence that it won't?
Author joeymas Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 I have no idea if it will happen again or not. I do not really think about it. Sure there were problems. I was not a great husband back then. No matter how or why she found this other person, he was there to tell her anything and everything she wanted to hear. When I say not to compete with the other person that does not mean that you should not try to be a better spouse. But there is no way to do that if there is a 3rd party involved. Once we got "super-man" out of the picture, then, and only then, can we begin to work on the original problems. Between you, me and the board (lol) I would have rathered she went out and had a real "One Night Stand" It would have been easier to deal with.
Owl Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Hehehe, OK, I'm following you now friend. And you're right...there is no real way that you can compete with the "fantasy" of the OM. In truth, ESPECIALLY if it's an emotional affair...because if it's not gotten physical yet, there's still the whole 'anticipation' that exists around the idea of it getting physical. In the way that you refer to competing now, I would have to agree with you that I never had to do that. Even after the affair, there wasn't a lot of that kind of thinking...I concentrated on re-building OUR relationship than worrying about what he was or wasn't to her. I have my own doubts at times mind you, but I too know that I'm a good husband, and a good man. She realizes now how lucky she is to have me, and she's so glad that I did have the strength to work through this with her to save our marriage. As far as the "one night stand" thing, I sometimes think that too. But then, I'd be tormented with the pictures of what DID happen. And in my case, I at least have the comfort of KNOWING it was never physical at all...he lives on the other side of the US from us, and there'd been no chance for them to meet in any way.
Author joeymas Posted February 18, 2005 Author Posted February 18, 2005 The one thing I tell people that I talk to. I feel that traveling to "hell" and being able to work through it and make it back has made our relationship stronger than those who have never had to deal with this. My wife and I learned everything there was to know about each other during that time in our lives. We have also seen the worst in each other and know what it is like to be inches from divorce. "Sometimes you have to find the cliff first, to have the ability to avoid falling over it." We have now separated love and sex in such a way that "jealousy" is not a part of our lives anymore. We also now have the confidence to give each other our privacy. We do not need to know what the other is doing, or has done or will do. We love each other. We have great sex every couple of days, but only make love a few times a year. lol
MWC_LifeBeginsAt40 Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Originally posted by joeymas Between you, me and the board (lol) I would have rathered she went out and had a real "One Night Stand" It would have been easier to deal with. With women and affairs, whether in real life or on the internet, it's not just about sex. For guys, it's all about sex.
passem Posted February 18, 2005 Posted February 18, 2005 Joeymas, I think it's great you and your wife have such a wonderful relationship. So what brings you here?
sylviaguardian Posted February 20, 2005 Posted February 20, 2005 Originally posted by joeymas We have now separated love and sex in such a way that "jealousy" is not a part of our lives anymore. So how have you separated love and sex? In my experience love often leads to sex and vice versa. Are you saying it would be OK for your wife to have sex as long as she didn't love the guy? Or would it be OK to love someone else but not have sex with them?
Author joeymas Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 Joeymas, I think it's great you and your wife have such a wonderful relationship. So what brings you here? I post in many forums mostly to think out loud. I like these forums because I have been in these situations that I am reading about and found my way clear of them. Don't worry... I am sure that I am due for many new adventures and I will be back here asking questions rather than posting answers.
Author joeymas Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by sylviaguardian So how have you separated love and sex? In my experience love often leads to sex and vice versa. Are you saying it would be OK for your wife to have sex as long as she didn't love the guy? Or would it be OK to love someone else but not have sex with them? This is not something that can be turned on and off by a switch. Just because there is a separation of love and sex does not give anyone of us the right to cheat. We can also say that "robbing banks" and "love" are not connected in our relationship but yet one of us robbing a bank would still not be acceptable. Once we accepted the fact that our relationship was a multi-level entity, dealing with common situations became easier. We commit to the fact that the "marriage level" is the outer limits of the relationship and do not approach that line lightly. Let me see if this helps. In a marriage there are plenty of things to fight about. Small things ---------Toothpaste usage, messy living room, etc Medium Things ------ Money, Bills, Time, etc Huge things ---------- Cheating, Jealousy, Happiness, etc All I am saying is to take sex and flirting and drop it down to the small things. If your spouse looks at another person or flirts, know that it is harmless and brush it off instead of making a small situation huge. Forget the invisible line of love - it is blurry / With that gone now we can say that an action "is or "is not" ok with me if we are to remain married. So performing this action has nothing to do with love but went against what was clearly not acceptable to me as a person. "Life is 10% what happens and 90% how you handle it"
whichwayisup Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 All I am saying is to take sex and flirting and drop it down to the small things. If your spouse looks at another person or flirts, know that it is harmless and brush it off instead of making a small situation huge. Sometimes where there is abit of smoke, a fire could start...Innocent flirting is fun once in a while, we all do it at work - share afew laughs then go about our day...Those are great for the ego and fun!! But flirting flirting and taking it in and enjoying it too much CAN lead to other things...Just check out some of the threads throughout LS! Just my opinion on this one...
Owl Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 Well, I'd say that PERHAPS for a marriage that has never suffered an affair, flirting COULD be a small thing. It depends on a lot of things...the maturity of the people involved, the maturity of the marriage, the current state of the marriage, etc... For ANY marriage that has been through an affair, flirting will NEVER be a small thing. Because of the destroyed/damaged/fragile trust, the fact that it DID get out of hand once, all of that. It may be a small thing for you and your spouse. It will never be a small thing for me...and because of that, it won't be a small thing for my spouse. Because for anyone who's been through an affair, it's tied irrevocably to the possibility of an affair. Maybe not anyone who's been through it...but darn sure most of us!
Author joeymas Posted February 22, 2005 Author Posted February 22, 2005 Owl, if you wake up each morning worried that today may be the day your spouse has an affair... well that is a problem. I understand that just coming out of an affair and working to rebuild the trust is the hardest thing anyone can ever do. If he/she were to flirt during that period well this is not somebody you want to be with. Don't compete with that - drop em - it is disrespectful But that trust does return over time. If you can survive after going through the horror and return that union to it's perfect state. That means that the affair was a mistake and your partner knows it. The process of coming back takes years. Any 2 people that can surpass that time to make a marriage work belong together. After that recovery time you can rest assured that your partner had plenty of chances to leave you if they wanted to. I do not believe that flirting leads to cheating. But I will agree that cheaters like to flirt like everyone else does and use it as a tool. Cheating is a self control issue. PS: Sorry if I come off cocky in these posts, I don't mean too and it is just the way I express myself. I type like I talk. These thoughts apply to my situation and maybe not to yours... please share.
sylviaguardian Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Originally posted by joeymas This is not something that can be turned on and off by a switch. Just because there is a separation of love and sex does not give anyone of us the right to cheat. We can also say that "robbing banks" and "love" are not connected in our relationship but yet one of us robbing a bank would still not be acceptable. Once we accepted the fact that our relationship was a multi-level entity, dealing with common situations became easier. We commit to the fact that the "marriage level" is the outer limits of the relationship and do not approach that line lightly. Let me see if this helps. In a marriage there are plenty of things to fight about. Small things ---------Toothpaste usage, messy living room, etc Medium Things ------ Money, Bills, Time, etc Huge things ---------- Cheating, Jealousy, Happiness, etc All I am saying is to take sex and flirting and drop it down to the small things. If your spouse looks at another person or flirts, know that it is harmless and brush it off instead of making a small situation huge. Forget the invisible line of love - it is blurry / With that gone now we can say that an action "is or "is not" ok with me if we are to remain married. So performing this action has nothing to do with love but went against what was clearly not acceptable to me as a person. "Life is 10% what happens and 90% how you handle it" Okay, I am a bit confused. Are you saying that sex with another person and flirting are fine? What is not fine then? Is it fine as long as tell each other? On the list of HUge things, I would have put Trust and Honesty. Are you saying that it's OK to have sex with another person as long as you tell the other person? From my own experience, I know that my H flirting with someone at work led to our marriage almost being totally destroyed. The flirting developed into feelings etc and...you know how the rest goes. My H might have told me that he was flirting with this person. What I didn't know was that she had totally fallen for him too and the flirting was just the spark that lit the explosion. IMO flirting is not that innocent, in that it implies receptivity. The only other essential ingredient is another person who is just as receptive, then BANG - they think they are (or are) in love and that they have something 'special' that's worth risking a marrige for. Anyway, just my thoughts Syl
Author joeymas Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 When it comes to flirting, I am saying - don't worry if it is OK or not OK. Let your partner be his or her own person. Flirting does not lead to cheating - but a person looking to cheat may flirt first. I see so much control in these posts. "How do I make him stop?" "How do I get more attention?" "How do I make my partner see things the way I see them" The other one I like is "I won't give an inch and all this has to change." You are becoming a parent instead of a partner. You can not solve relationship problems by directly controlling your partner. If you could, Would you want to? You can however control your partner indirectly by changing your reactions to the things he/she does. In order for a person to change they need to think it was their own idea.
emopunk Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 A quote by Stephen Covey from "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People": "We obviously value the difference between men and women, husbands and wives. But what about the social, mental, and emotional differences? Could these differences not also be source of creating new, exciting forms of life--creating an environment that is truly fulfilling for each person, that nurtures the self-esteem and self-worth of each, that creates opportunities for each to mature into independence and then gradually into interdependence? Could synergy not create a new script for the generation--one that is more geared to service and contribution, and is less protective, less adversarial, less selfish; one that is more open, more trusting, more giving, and is less defensive, protective, and political; one that is more loving, more caring, and is less possessive and judgemental?" Hmm... working with others to mature?
whichwayisup Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Joey, flirting is fun once in a while, WE all do it...At work, fun play and laughter - Makes the day go by faster. BUT FLIRTING flirting is dangerous continuiously, especially when you're with somebody else. What is the purpose? Why? Do you know when you openly sexually flirt with someone else alot it just is disrespectful to your partner? This is honestly a battle of each person's view on relationships and crossing the line. IF my husband came home and I heard through the grapevine, or even SAW him openly flirting most of the day it would really piss me off and hurt my feelings. Yes, I know he won't cheat on me...But by doing what he's doing he is dangerously crossing a line and who knows if this other girl is more into him than he knows? Feelings could be hurt and/or she could come on to him. I know him well enough he would walk away...I also know this whole senario would NEVER EVER happen because my husband doesn't do stuff like that...But that's just him, He's not a flirty person. He respects women and honestly doesn't feel the need to do that. He's secure and confident in himself. Flirting is an attention gathering thing to make ONE feel good about themselves. TO the extreme's I am talking about here. Obviously Joey, you have a completely different way of thinking and handling relationships than others do, and that's okay. It works for you. But most of us feel threatened by stuff like that. WHY put yourself in a situation when there's a chance it could be hard to say NO. CUZ it does happen. Look around the threads here and on infidelity. Most don't 'go' looking for an affair or a one night stand...It just happens. They don't mean for it to, but it just does....Think of it like this....You're a horny teenager and alone in the house. Your girl comes over...Getting all hot and passionate...You know your folks are gonna come home any moment but you're so caught up in the moment. You don't wanna stop, you're too far in so it happens...Then you get caught naked in bed by your parents!!! You knew they were gonna come home but didn't care because you're too busy wanting to get yer rocks off. WELL, same senario goes here about how dangerous flirting and crossing the line can be...Why put yourself in a spot where you can't say no or don't want to because you're too caught up in the heat of the moment. Yes, I'm exaggerating here to make a point that's all.
emopunk Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 It's all about compromise people. You just need to figure out what is worth compromising on, and if you can live with the compromise. No change comes without a price.
uberfrau Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 I can't agree with joeymas more. You simply can't control another person. If they are going to cheat, they are going to cheat, no matter what you do or how much control you try to impose on them. We are talking about another person, not an animal amenable to proper training. Porn is a dealbreaker for me. If i find out husband has a secret porn habit, he's gone. I know myself well enough to know this. If i give husband a chance to rid himself of it and he doesn't, that's his problem not mine, and he's out. I'm not going to waste my time changing somebody who doesn't want to change. I've got better things to do in this life. I mean, it's no fun 'policing' your spouse. My ex-boss was telling me about his wife. SHe wrote $1600 worth of bad checks in a months time some years ago. As he said "she thinks all the checks mean we have all that money." Ever since then he has had complete control of the finances, she's a stay at home mother (I don't know if she was when she bounced the checks). In fact, she had to call HIM at work to pick up stupid things like diapers and salsa. I mean, she has NO money at her disposal. He told me he was 'thinking about getting her a debit card into which he would put money." Some weeks prior to this disclosure, he told me he thought women used sex as a weapon to get what they wanted. I immediately berated him for this sexist comment. But when he told me about the above situation, i could see why he said that. SHe's chafing under his control, and their sex life suffers. NO surprise there.
whichwayisup Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 I'm not going to waste my time changing somebody who doesn't want to change. I've got better things to do in this life. People don't change. They can work hard on making more of an effort but when it comes right down to the bone we are who we are...So either accept it and deal with it or move on. Just because somebody cheats once doesn't mean they will do it again...Depends on cirumstances and who the person is in general. Some are serial cheats, some aren't. Doesn't make them a terrible person either, just a person who made a really bad choice, a mistake and has to live with the consquences of it forever.
sylviaguardian Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Originally posted by uberfrau Porn is a dealbreaker for me. If i find out husband has a secret porn habit, he's gone. I know myself well enough to know this. If i give husband a chance to rid himself of it and he doesn't, that's his problem not mine, and he's out. I'm not going to waste my time changing somebody who doesn't want to change. I've got better things to do in this life. Okay - so you have been with your husband, say 10-15 years. You have a couple of kids with him, a house, mortgage etc...... You find out about his secret habit - BANG he's gone. When the kids ask you where their Dad went to, why they have no money, why they had to move house, you say "He was looking at porn and not telling me" and they say "Okay, sounds reasonable - a good enough reason to grow up without a Dad" Come on - its not that simple. As for trying to prevent our spouses doing anything - nobody is trying to do that. What we are trying to do is make sure we know this time, if and when it happens. Syl
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