Why does god neglect the starving kids in Africa?

[TheFinalWord]

If Satan can manipulate God so easily - and let's be honest this is not the first time - Garden of Eden, tempting his son in the desert etc. - then who is the real God?

 

Jesus overcame the temptation in the desert. Interestingly, many of the same questions you are asking, Jesus answered during the temptation.

 

After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. Then the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

It is very common to struggle with some of the statements in the bible. This is because God does not always reveal the "why" to us, only the "what." God permitted satan to sift Job like wheat, as satan desired to to do Peter.

 

“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

 

We know what happened. But why? Not easy to answer.

 

Often times, those with the greatest faith (e.g. Job) are often put through extreme trials. It is the age old question of why do bad things happen to good people. As an example, nearly all of the apostles, were executed for preaching the gospel.

[Scorpio Chick]

I cannot take this comment seriously.

Why? I, by virtue of the fact that I responded to you, have taken your comments and question, 'seriously'.

 

I am assuming

 

We are in a discussion about God. There is no place for assumptions in a discussion. It only heats it up more, and strays off topic. I'd like to stick to why I believe in God rather than spend time disspelling your assumptions about me. You don't know me as I don't you.

 

you are a Christian or a Muslim.

 

I suppose I am a Christian since I believe in God and that he sent his son Jesus to earth. I don't necessarily behave Christian-like all the time. My belief has always been that it is not for me to state or say that "I am a Christian." I think the only being qualified to do that is not my neighbor of BFF, but God Himself.

 

Both of these systems are based on adherence and belief. If you do not get this about your own belief system, then there is nothing I can say to help you. Sort of like when someone is in love with a player. They are just doomed and it is only when it all falls apart that they see it.

 

I would suggest that I don't 'need help' and I would say that you say such things in a condescending manner. Umiron did the same thing with me, stating such things as I am not even trying to understand this discussion, and I am "poisoning" the discussion. I truly don't understand how such personal attacks further the discussion at hand.

 

You claimed that freewill is given by god. You said that. Since there is no such thing as god,

 

Well, should we just stop the discussion now? What a bold statement there! Umiron stated that we do not have the ability to verify independently what any of us are doing or not doing, so, I would have to ask, if umiron is right, how you can make such a bold statement regarding the existence of a spiritual being if we can't verify anything regarding a non-spiritual being?? I have said I BELIEVE in God. I have never said THERE IS A GOD. There is a difference, a HUGE difference and I'm certainly not going to deny that. I'm not stupid! I know sure as the nose on my face if I ever said, 'Okay, peeps, THERE IS A GOD' someone out there is gonna get all demanding and say "WHAT SAY YOU? SHOW US YOUR PROOF!!" Funny how that is but I get it! And I can't prove there is a God. But I do believe in him. I feel like I should ask permission from you, Tyler, and umiron, like, 'ummm, I believe in God, I know y'all don't, is that ok?' Especially when ya'll think I'm POISONING the discussion and all! You and umiron and Tyler Durden claiming THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOD is fine, it's your right, your WHATEVER, but if you're going to start talking like you have proof, then, I have no choice but to demand your proof. After all, having faith and not knowing, is a bit exhausting. It would certainly save me from having to keep defending my belief to atheists!!!

you cannot claim that freewill comes from a mythical creature.

 

And there we have it!! God is a mythical creature!! It took ya'll a bit of time to finally come out with that. Whatever. What I don't get is this: I get people spending time defending what they believe exists, but I simply cannot wrap my mind around spending time defending what I firmly believe doesn't exist! Isn't there something you would rather be doing than that?

 

What if I claimed it came from Zeuss? You might let me believe that but you would feel deep inside you that I was wrong. In fact you would KNOW that I was wrong. Because there is no Zeuess. He is an ancient myth. Try telling that to a believer.

 

Try telling what to a believer? I don't understand what you're saying here. Try telling a Zeus believer that Zeus doesn't exist? Aren't you and umiron and Tyler Durden trying to tell God believers that God doesn't exist?

This is a common and sad tactic by believers.

 

How can a tactic be sad?

 

They can say whatever they want. They can make claims - the most preposterous claims imaginable "God was mysterious and just for flooding the entire planet and killing every unborn fetus and little innocent child because he felt like it" "Mary was a virgin"

We would not tolerate this in any other context. This is not me being intolerant, it is me being shocked!

How old are you? You've known there are believers and there are atheists. The difference is tolerated by the vast majority of the people. Then there are the 'few' that do make a ruckus.

 

Everything you just said, but more, in HOW you say things, can be reversed to atheists. So what? I don't understand if you're over 20 years old how any of this is shocking though. This can't be the first time you've engaged in a heated discussion about the existence of God. As the Beatles would say, Let it Be. Let us believe and you go on about your life not believing. We can still be kind to each other and try our best to help others in need of help.

 

Look. I get what you are saying, but please do not insult me by doing the whole new trendy thing where you claim a belief systems (Christian, I suspect) but every inconsistency, every past and current atrocity, every damage inflicted is dismissed with "Well, that is not MY Jesus. MY personal Jesus is the god of love and happiness"

 

First, please don't assume I would think, let alone say what someone else has said to you. I have never insulted anyone here, well, I did say umiron was being juvenile by saying the things he or she was saying to me. As far as atrocities? I think we can pin those squarely on the shoulders of evil.

 

Of COURSE I can make assumptions about belief systems. They are set in stone in a bible that everyone keeps referring back to over and over and over. How is it that you can rest your entire argument on that bible, but when I point out the inconsistencies in it, you say this ^^^?

 

I would suggest you haven't yet pointed out any inconsistencies in the bible, if so, I haven't read them yet. Please provide a link back to where you have, I'd be more than happy to read them.

 

I know I am wasting my time here.

 

You make A LOT of assumptions. I'm reading your post, how have you wasted your time? If you failed to convert me to atheism, that doesn't mean you have wasted your time. You tried. Sometimes though, you might want to be cautioned, you may actually push a lukewarm believer over that fence into a stronger faith in God. Either way, you're not wasting your time. And you have all the right in the world to do what you're doing, as do I.

 

Only a non-believer can take in information and process it. Believers have faith and faith is the opposite of reality, truth, reason, and evidence. Faith is what you hold onto in the absence of those things - by its very definition!

 

Exactly!! And actually, the bible does not dispute your statement! DON'T YOU SEE THAT THAT'S WHAT SUCKS ABOUT IT? Faith is faith, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with INFORMATION!! How I wish I KNEW for a fact there was a God.

 

So hold onto your belief. I would not begrudge you that.

 

I disagree with you there. The majority of your posting screams otherwise.

 

And I will step back and let you be. But you are online and you are making claims that are patently false. Just because you do not see this does not mean that it is okay.

 

Please find in any of my posts wherein I claim your claims are false. Because this is a big problem in the atheist vs believer 'discussions'. Hint: you won't find anywhere where I state your claims are false.

 

There could be someone here who is hurting or despondent.

 

Safe to say, most of here came to Loveshack hurting.

 

We should all be offended if someone from a religious cult came here and tried to recruit them. That is how I see all of this. You did not do this explicitly, it is just part of the whole system. It is how the whole thing works.

Umm, I RESPONDED to Tyler Durden's post, so who is doing the recruiting???? And he abandoned posting on his own thread!! What is the opposite of thread jack cuz that's what Tyler did!!!!!

 

I am sorry for you. For whatever led you to these conclusions. And I wish you well and hope that religion gives you what you need and are looking for.

 

That is dripping with so much insincerity. WHY are you SORRY for me? Am I some pathetic creature BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN GOD? PUHLEEZE. Come on. Knock it off. I don't feel bad for you that you're an atheist. Your choice! Again, stop with saying religion!!! Define religion and go to my response post to umiron to know a little bit more about me, before you spout off as if you know me personally.

[Allumere]

I am convinced that a lot of the suffering in the world is due to religious thinking in particular and a lack of skeptical inquiry in general. Compare the levels of religiousness with health indicators, with life span, with average intake of calories, with average hourly salaries, with work hours per week, with teenage pregnancy rates and with violence against children, women, disabled or foreigners/other races. You will find that the least religious societies on this planet are surpassing every religious place in terms of life quality. I do not think that is a coincidence. Thus I think, instead of sending money to Africa and hoping, or praying , that it'll end up in the hands of a person in need, it is more effective, and thus more moral really, to fight for more skeptic inquiry and local change. Religion is a huge road block in this regard.

 

I would argue based on what I have read over the years that it is the existence of faith (without being specific) that is a common denominator of longevity and satisfaction in life (not the only one but a consistent one). I believe the most recent trending observation of this is regarding Blue Zones. Can you provide example of these "least religious societies?" I am thinking you may be referring to areas in Europe. With that said, is it because these folks don't believe in God or is it because they don't affiliate with a specific religion.

[Scorpio Chick]

You say that God can do it, but chooses not to,

 

Technically, I never said God can do it. Read back on my post. I said just because someone can do something it does not automatically follow that they will do it. So technically, I never said God can do it. Remember, and a perusal of my posts will confirm, I don't even KNOW that God exists. I believe.

 

just as you have some capabilities that you choose not to use. OK, but that doesn’t refute my point that his inaction or his choice to not help could easily be construed as evil, and can only lead to a direct contradiction with the notion of his being omnibenevolent.

 

If the bible is true, and bear in mind the words I use, I said IF - the bible states that our ways are not God's ways. The way we think is not the way God thinks. I take from that a thought which doesn't provide me with comfort and that is that I THINK CHILDREN SHOULDN'T STARVE. I think a mother should not be allowed to abort her unborn baby. I think priests that rape boys and girls should be castrated without benefit of anesthetics. I think the father that claims he forgot his 22 month old son in a car in July should be tortured to within an inch of his life, and preferably by me, and then killed. I think a lot of things. Doesn't mean God thinks that way. IF the bible is true, there is a reason it states therein that God doesn't think like we do. The fact that children starving upsets you, and me, is a sign that we care. Caring is not a physical thing. I can't touch your caring. I can't touch your thoughts of horror about starving children. But it is interesting to note that we have those thoughts that if taken to a physical level, would help end the suffering of someone else. Why do we have those thoughts? Just a question.

 

Let me give you an example:

A man is walking down the street. He’s the only one he can see, until he comes across a screaming, bleeding little boy. The boy has been stabbed multiple times, and will bleed to death unless someone helps him. The man has the power to help him, but instead, chooses not to. The reason is honestly irrelevant because the outcome is almost certain that unless someone else comes by quick and intervenes, this child is going to die.

And first, anyone could think that would come upon this scene, and happen to witness what played out that the man may have brought the harm to the child.

For him not to intervene on the child's behalf to the degree it would help him would be evil. That I agree with. But refer to my posting about our ways and our thinking is not the same as God's.

 

I will try to briefly explain my thoughts on this: we have math. We have science, english, spelling, physics, and math. I'm stronger on the english side of things, so I really don't understand math, but I've done some research and it is clear, and scientifically documented that our earth is a manifestation of a heck of a lot of mathematical prinicples. Do a little research on pi and The Golden Ratio, and nature, and prepare to have your mind blown.

 

So what I think, I THINK, notice I didn't say, I KNOW, that God is the ultimate mathematician. Let's say He exists. If so, there is God and then there's us. We are beings He created. If true, then by logical and probably MATHEMATICAL necessity, we are LESS than He. I do not mean in any quality sense, but just physical sense. And we know we are finite beings. For whatever reason, I'm NOT going to live forever. I stubbed my toes yesterday and it hurt like a motherf---er! I could get cancer. I am clearly, not a perfected being. I get sleepy when I would rather be able to stay awake, and yadda yadda yadda.

 

When I think about God and about human suffering I have come to my own conclusion that this a mathematical (for lack of a better term) issue. God also claims to administer perfect justice. As evidenced by juries that free a guilty person and as evidenced by juries that convict innocent people who have spent years in jail wrongly convicted, WE, humans, do NOT administer perfect justice. Perfect justice to me would be, someone innocent is suffering, STOP IT IMMEDIATELY. Intervene God!!! But He doesn't. I think, there MUST be a reason. I don't think, as you do, that it means he doesn't exist, or that he is evil. If you attribute the evil in the world to him, then first, you are confessing to a belief in Him, and secondly, to be fair, you have to attribute good in the world to Him too.

 

I’d wager that you wouldn’t spend any length of time defending the reprehensible, and repugnant actions of this man, much less, consider him worthy of worship.

 

I have never spoken about worship. I understand plenty of Christians claim to 'worship' Him, but please be careful, since it is I you are engaged in a discussion with, of attributing something said to me having said it. I do not attend any church or read the bible.And I certainly would not worship another human being.

Instead, I’d be willing to bet that you’d attribute the rightful quality of evil to this man’s name. Exchange “a man” with “god,” and tell me how it is any different. God apparently has the power to ease and even end suffering, but he elects not to. I call that evil, and I declare that if such a god does exist, he would not be worthy of worship.

You can call my lack of belief in god a “choice” or an act of free will, all you want. It makes no matter to me. I don’t regard my lack of belief a choice, so much as the only conclusion that I can reasonably draw from the evidence (or lack thereof) presented to me. Call it a choice all you want, I don’t perceive it as such. I couldn’t believe in god (unless sufficient evidence or a very convincing argument was presented to me) even if I wanted to.

 

A lack of belief is a passive thing. You are not passively not believing in something, as evidenced by your continued discussions.

 

That last sentence baffles me since you ARE engaged with believers in a discussion regarding the existence of God. If you already have concluded that you DON'T believe in God and more importantly, as your last five words in that sentence assert, you WOULDN'T EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO, then, why are you discussing any of it?

 

I absolutely believe a woman has a right to abort her fetus, but it is not relevant to the topic and as such, any further questions should be left to PM regarding the abortion issue.

 

Why wouldn't it be relevant to a topic regarding young, starving children specifically, and what you and Tyler Durden claim is an evil disregard by an omnipotent being that doesn't intervene to stop starving? Who is allowing the woman the right to abort her fetus? My point as to why it's exactly relevant, not to get on the issue of abortion, but is that you are now saying humans have the right to do stuff that impacts the living status of another being, creature, what have you, and suddenly you're not blaming God for it. Do you see now how it is relevant? In what situations to you is God exempt from being required, in some moralistic sense, to intervene in?

Edited June 29, 2014 by Scorpio Chick

[Haydn]

Now that is frankly inane to compare the 2.

 

A random African poster asks,

 

"Why does gOD neglect the obese kids in America that have pediatric diabetes?"

 

Childhood Obesity and Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus

 

Childhood Obesity and Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus

[Haydn]

If god existed would he oppose abortion? Thought he was all about free will? If you believe in god then you can`t blame the morality of humans for whatever state we think we are in. Blame him.

 

 

Why wouldn't it be relevant to a topic regarding young, starving children specifically, and what you and Tyler Durden claim is an evil disregard by an omnipotent being that doesn't intervene to stop starving? Who is allowing the woman the right to abort her fetus? My point as to why it's exactly relevant, not to get on the issue of abortion, but is that you are now saying humans have the right to do stuff that impacts the living status of another being, creature, what have you, and suddenly you're not blaming God for it. Do you see now how it is relevant? In what situations to you is God exempt from being required, in some moralistic sense, to intervene in?

[todreaminblue]

Thank you, deb, for taking the time to share your story which ties in so beautifully with this thread about God caring for starving children in Africa as I will illustrate in the paragraphs to follow!

 

It seems your grandfather was the first to tell you about God? But, you knew Him in your little heart before your grandfather told you?

 

I had a client who was raped by her teen-aged cousins repeatedly for a year at the age of five. She, too, is a strong Christian. She describes herself at that age as being similar to the way you described yourself.

 

The way your personal story (and the story of my client I just mentioned) ties in with this thread about the starving children in Africa, actually, is that folks may assume God is not tending to starving children just as they may also assume God isn't/wasn't tending to other suffering children (you, my client, others of us who may have suffered as children) when He actually is/was.

 

He has given you faith in Him, more valuable than a physically safe childhood without faith in Him would be.

 

And it seems He has given you not a small faith but a very large faith! What a gift!

 

In eternity one day we may hear the stories of some of the starving children in Africa who were also given gifts from God and also possibly came into a life of comfort here on this earth.

 

I have family members who were at one time starving children in Africa and now live in safe secure homes in my country with plenty of food. They were brought into the safe homes of my relatives (who have also established a charitable foundation that feeds and houses children who are still there in Africa) by conviction of God and in the name of God. So, God truly has not abandoned these starving children in Africa.

 

God even now continues to convict hearts and minds of many people to provide relief for starving and suffering children who live in various parts of the world and they are being helped by respondents who are people of faith.

 

I also believe that if a person doesn't associate with people who have faith in God they likely may not realize how much is actually being done all over the world for suffering and needy people. Because I find in the many churches I have belonged to or visited that I'm often hearing of individuals who are sponsoring other people or even small groups that are sent out all over the world to provide relief from suffering. If a person doesn't go to church and associate with those who are doing this they may possibly be unaware it's happening because this isn't being reported in the news.

 

But, as surely as I write this post, God is tending to suffering children all over the world, those we may be aware of and those we may not be aware of. He is a mighty God full of love and compassion who cares for the little ones He has given life to!

 

(t/j is the way I refer to thread jack)

 

I have had many tests of my faith living water, i feel in times of struggle that is when your faith is tested....not when everything is going right but when everything goes wrong, i want to thank god not blame god....for i made it .....many times with a sense of homour i still have for some reason and a voice to sing......no one has cut out my tongue yet....so i think ill take up singing..smilin..make up a rap .....and get down with no frown..for there will be a time to dance.....god likes it when i do....deb..

[Scorpio Chick]

God allows us to have free will and does not interfere.

 

We all have and make choices in life. God could intervine if He wanted to but it may infringe on our right to free will.

 

We have to accept responsibilities for the choices we make in life, both the good and bad consequences.

 

 

My question is, why are people in Africa in these starving areas having children that they can't feed?

 

Shouldn't they be the ones who are ultimately responsible for the caring and feeding of these children?

 

Why can't I be concise like you are?? What took you five short, easily understood paragraphs to state takes me twelve, long winded!!! Great post.

[lil hoodlum]

You clearly misunderstand the concept of the right to life. We all have the same right to life, including fetuses. That right to life does not and should not come at the expense of another living being.

 

Example: Matthew needs a kidney transplant, and John is the only available matching donor, but John refuses to give him it. If Matthew does not get the donor, he will surely die. Since Matthew has the right to life, should he able to force John to hand over that much needed kidney?

 

If not, why not? After all, we all have the right to life, right? And since I think most sane people would err on the side of "No, Matthew should not be granted the right to forcibly remove John's kidney" regardless of his need for it, I have to ask, why do you want to grant special rights to a fetus?

 

Should God intervene in these matters? No, but if he's so dang against it, and it's in his power, why doesn't he? You're asking me what god should intervene on when I don't believe god even exists. That's patently ridiculous.

 

 

 

Speaking about the right to life or rather LIFE itself.

 

 

Who or what do you think ultimately created life to begin with?

[firmness]

No matter how preposterous the claims, no matter how horrific the atrocities, no matter how damning the evidence against any organized religion, we always wind up in the same place. Locked in this battle where justice, honesty, reality and reason are on one side, and religious dogma, spin, and emotions on the other side.

 

There are quite literally thousands of rebuttals, and volumes of scientific facts that debunk most religious beliefs (Christianity in particular). But there are only about 3 repeated responses from religious people.

 

 

What is odd to me and frustrating is that the spin is so wild and seemingly erratic. It feels like arguing with an angry teenager: "You said this, but what about YOU" or "You said whoseywhatsy, but whoseywhatsy is spelled incorrectly so your point is invalid" (I saw that here once)." Or "Are you saying that Zeuss believers do not believe in Zeuss or that God believers do not believe in God. Which is it"

 

My head spins sometimes because the original point gets lost and to address each issue that gets raised would take months getting mired down in crazy land only to have the person continue to believe anyway. There is no real openness there. Ever.

 

And there you have it. Religion in a nutshell. Claims are made - preposterous claims. And when challenges, those who make the claims start rattling off even more questions and points that are more whackadoodle and confusing than the original claim! And the original questions are never really answered.

 

Every time I try to ignore religion and just let people be, there is some Islamo-Christian nutcase trying to pass laws to force me, my children or my fellow Americans to pray in schools, to control women's rights, or to attack other people religions.

 

This is where it gets serious and the main reason I am even here. We cannot let religious intolerance and ignorance win the day. We have come so far. Science has debunked spirits, geocentrism, demonic possession, the origins of the universe, the age of Earth, and just about every other single claim made in the bible. We know exactly where the Judeo-Islamo-Christian belief system came from and why it is here.

 

Yet people continue to try to make America a theocracy.

 

I just don't get why.

[KathyM]

the majority of the pain and suffering in the world are not caused by the will of intelligent agents who have free will.

Isn't it? Wars cause a lot of pain and suffering. Men start wars. God believes in making peace with others. Oppression causes a lot of pain and suffering. Leaders of countries and dictators cause oppression. Fighting with others, steeling from others, harming others, causes a lot of pain and suffering. That is man's doing. God instructs us to love our enemies and make peace with them. The poor suffer because governments (of man) and people do little or nothing to help the poor. Again, man's failure to help others. God instructs us to help the poor, feed the poor, clothe the poor, and care for the poor.

[Scorpio Chick]

Because to my knowledge, no women were burned at the stake because the fairies told them so. No fairies raped little boys by the thousands (or more). Fairies did not orchestrated the Inquisitions, 9/11, the Crusades, Genocide, or the Holocaust (Hitler was a Christian - look it up). Fairies have not castigated, arrested, tortured and murdered countless scientists for trying to explain the world around us and holding back progress to a degree that we will never know how far we could have come otherwise.

 

Fairies do not commit atrocities. That's why.

 

This is arguing semantics. Think about it: it isn't God really that is at discussion here. It is BELIEF in Him. You have a problem with our belief in Him. Swap out God for 'fairy', you're left with nothing else to discuss. Atrocities exist. The question Tyler Durden posited is that there is a God and that He does not stop starvation. Since none of us can claim that it is a fact that God exists, all any of us can do is allege why He doesn't, at least according to our sense of vision, intervene. That's all any of us, including Tyler can do. The subject needs to boil down. If Tyler is an atheist, he should have stated that. All I can state is, I believe there is a God. So naturally, all I can then do regarding what He does or doesn't do is speculate. It is equally ludicrous as an atheist to state the reason the entity you DON'T believe in does or doesn't do something as it is for me as a believer to state, emphatically, that He is or isn't doing something based on my belief only. It is all only SPECULATION. If you or Tyler have PROOF of God's existence or PROOF He does not exist, PLEASE, present it.

 

If you want to argue that only believers in God have committed atrocities, then you will have to start a new thread, because that is not what this is about. No one has argued that God Himself intervenes to stop starvation.

 

 

Imagine if everywhere you turned you saw a swastika perched on top of random buildings. Imagine if you lived in a country in which random people wore swastika's around their neck on chains and had them tattooed. Imagine a world where Nazis when into sick people and tried to heal them by preaching the word of Hitler.

 

THAT is how it feels to me to see crosses everywhere.

 

Please do some research on swasitka's. They pre-date the Holocaust. Please. Research it. Native American Indians used it, if my memory serves me correctly, as a good luck symbol. The symbol, as I said, predates the Holocaust. In any event, the swastika as utilized by the Nazi's was a symbol that meant death to Jews. The cross does not symbolize death to anyone. If you're going to say it symbolizes that if you don't believe in it you're going to hell, then, what do you have to worry about? It's just a tenet of a belief you don't believe in. Should we start ripping down things that bother us, because if so, I would like every abortion clinic taken down.

 

Just the same way you can never separate that swastika from the atrocities committed in its name, you can never separate the cross from the atrocities committed in its name - and let's be clear; there have been significantly more atrocities committed in the name of the Judeo-Islamo-Christian god than any other tyrants including Hitler. The Nazis were around for about 11-12 years. Christianity has had 2,000 years. I am sure that Nazi supporters would come after me with the same zeal and self-righteousness that you are. But I will not have it and will call it out every time.

 

Research the swastika symbol. Please. And if more atrocities have been committed in the name of a Christian god, then it just might be that historically speaking, there have been more believers in God than atheists.

Can we dispense with name calling and insults and dramatics? You "will not have it". Please. We are discussing. No need for all that. You have to be able to be non-emotional if you want to have stamina in an intellectual discussion.

 

Just because a lot of people do it does not make it right. This is something I have only ever had to say to religious people. Think on that.

 

Again, as I've already stated, check your definition of 'religion'. I believe in God. I am not a religious person.

 

Atheism a luxury? Wow. That's a new one.

 

Read carefully what I say, because it matters. Try to have an open mind with the same. I never said 'atheism is a luxury'. I said you have the luxury of being an atheist. Ever heard the expression, 'there is no atheist in a foxhole'? Because soldiers surrounded by enemy fire seem to go to a default prayer to a God to help them. Think on that!! And I love that I'm presenting new ideas to you.

 

I am not trying to make people believe or not believe anything. I just hate lies. I do not tolerate political parties, religions and any other "ism" that spews hate, racism, and other injustices on top of a history of atrocities against humanity that goes back several millennia, and then tries to couch it as "Comforting"

I just cannot believe you can write these things are really truly justify this.

 

You might as well be wearing a swastika on your t-shirt and claim: "this is MY swastika - MY Nazism is the belief system of love, and peace, and comfort. Why do you want me to give up my swastika."

 

Is that what you call 'calling' me out on something? Saying I might as well be wearing a swastika?? Ruh huh huh EALLLLLLLLLLYYY???? Are you discussing this topic still or should I just assume you went completely off the emotional rails here?

 

That is honestly how I see it. What scares me the most is that so few believers have really ever read the bible

 

And you know this, how? And why do I think that the person who just said I might as well be wearing a swastika on my shirt, NOT KNOWING ME AT ALL, isn't really scared if believers haven't read the bible?

 

and get what it is really about.

What is the bible really about? Please tell us.

 

That so many millions of people need this mess in order to feel good about themselves and treat others with basic human respect.

 

First, what's it to you if someone you know or don't know believes in "this mess" to feel good? Secondly, why would you take that away from someone, when all your posting would have us all believe is that your so peace loving?

[umirano]

I will not engage in an online p!ss!ng contest on who helps more. Because the the problem of evil is not answered even if you could prove that those presenting it are the worst people by any moral standard.

 

The problem of evil stands on it's own feet. God has the power to stop the child rapist but doesn't. By getting hung up on the illustrative example of starving children the believers keep dodging the fact that evil and suffering exist for many other reasons than famine. Many evil things happen all the time and all the donating and volunteering in the world could not redeem them. The tsunami 2004 could not have been avoided by volunteering. It killed several 100'000 people within a few hours. No man on earth is responsible for this disaster.

 

The believer claims these deaths are a result of our wrong use of free will how exactly?

[Haydn]

This is pretty simple. The non believers among us simply, simply do not believe in what you believe in. There are no instructions from anyone or anything.

[KathyM]

But you'd also help the poor if there was no god to instruct you so, right?

 

 

Actually we don't have the resources to prevent hurricanes or earthquakes. You know there's a god. He actively kills, or at least negligently looks on when thousands die in a hurricane?

 

Your god looks on every day when little kids are raped behind closed curtains or in basements. He has the power to stop the rapists. He doesn't. At best he says "Go on, I'll deal with you later." He has no mercy for the child. I'd do something if I was omnipotent. You'd do something if you were omnipotent. Every single poster on this thread would probably. We're all more moral than your god.

 

So everybody who points out the problem is guaranteed to never ever have chosen to help? I have helped. I'm a first responder in case of natural and technical disasters in my country. I'd risk my life for others. Your assertion is arrogant.

Why do you say you don't believe in God, and then you blame Him for everything? Makes no sense. Those who are Christians realize that our perfect world, where there is no pain or suffering, is in heaven. That is God's promise, where there will be no pain and suffering. This earth is a fallen world. A temporary one. Not a perfect one. And man has corrupted it with his sin.

[umirano]

Prior to the Flood, I don't believe there were natural disasters, but someone with more knowledge might have to correct me on this one. If this is correct then again this would be man and the state this earth was in....hummm it's just about there again...

 

I'm very sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. Why do people die and get injured in hurricanes when god has the power to stop hurricanes and doesn't want people to suffer?

 

 

And why do you believe there was ever a time where humans did not face natural disasters? Do you have any indication of this other than an old book?

[Scorpio Chick]

Now that is frankly inane to compare the 2.

 

Wha?! So we are going to start qualifying the things WE think God should and shouldn't intervene it?

 

Actually, bringing up childhood obesity is the flipside to starving children!! It's brilliant! Think about it. If you and Tyler Durden's supposition is correct, that if the God we claim to believe in exists, then the continuation of starvation is an assertive and necessarily evil act by Him, then wouldn't it stand to be explored that how can there be children that are in the opposite scenario - extremely well fed? In fact, why wouldn't you look at it that that is this evil God's plan, to rub it in the faces of the world that He lets some children starve and others be too well fed?

 

Haydn?

[Haydn]

He did not say that. He said your god if you believe. Believers was the clue.

 

Why do you say you don't believe in God, and then you blame Him for everything? Makes no sense. Those who are Christians realize that our perfect world, where there is no pain or suffering, is in heaven. That is God's promise, where there will be no pain and suffering. This earth is a fallen world. A temporary one. Not a perfect one. And man has corrupted it with his sin.

[umirano]

Why do you say you don't believe in God, and then you blame Him for everything?

I'm just playing along, it's called a thought experiment. I place myself in your shoes for a second and pretend to think there's a god. The next question that comes to mind, is why he'd let evil prevail. Isn't that an obvious question for you?

 

And man has corrupted it with his sin.

Did the children being raped by family members corrupt the world? Or are they just collateral damage?

[lil hoodlum]

Life wasn't "created."

 

 

If life wasn't "created", where did life come from?

[Haydn]

I think you answered your own question. `Your so called creator`, decides to starve children then overfeed others? You belief is skewed to say the least.

 

Wha?! So we are going to start qualifying the things WE think God should and shouldn't intervene it?

 

Actually, bringing up childhood obesity is the flipside to starving children!! It's brilliant! Think about it. If you and Tyler Durden's supposition is correct, that if the God we claim to believe in exists, then the continuation of starvation is an assertive and necessarily evil act by Him, then wouldn't it stand to be explored that how can there be children that are in the opposite scenario - extremely well fed? In fact, why wouldn't you look at it that that is this evil God's plan, to rub it in the faces of the world that He lets some children starve and others be too well fed?

 

Haydn?

[Scorpio Chick]

Imagine if everywhere you turned you saw a swastika perched on top of random buildings. Imagine if you lived in a country in which random people wore swastika's around their neck on chains and had them tattooed. Imagine a world where Nazis when into sick people and tried to heal them by preaching the word of Hitler.

 

THAT is how it feels to me to see crosses everywhere....

 

 

You might as well be wearing a swastika on your t-shirt and claim: "this is MY swastika - MY Nazism is the belief system of love, and peace, and comfort. Why do you want me to give up my swastika."

 

Firmness, here is a wikipedia link to the history of the swastika.

 

Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Haydn]

Whats your point with this? Are you a Hindu? All symbols religious or otherwise are appropriated by nutters at sometime or another.

 

Firmness, here is a wikipedia link to the history of the swastika.

 

Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[TheFinalWord]

Now that is frankly inane to compare the 2.

 

Actually, not at all. Both are issues dealing with malnutrition. A large amount of obesity is due to modifiable, environmental conditions. There is a positive relationship between socio-economic status and obesity, in America.

 

The Obesity-Hunger Paradox

 

Global report: Obesity bigger health crisis than hunger - CNN.com

 

Obesity is a bigger health crisis globally than hunger, and the leading cause of disabilities around the world, according to a new report published Thursday in the British medical journal The Lancet.

Edited June 29, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[Haydn]

Sorry, silly. Very. What does your god think about this? Not much obviously. Maybe he has gone for a take out?

 

 

Actually, not at all. Both are issues dealing with malnutrition. A large amount of obesity is due to modifiable, environmental conditions. There is a positive relationship between socio-economic status and obesity, in America.

 

The Obesity-Hunger Paradox

 

Global report: Obesity bigger health crisis than hunger - CNN.com

 

Obesity is a bigger health crisis globally than hunger, and the leading cause of disabilities around the world, according to a new report published Thursday in the British medical journal The Lancet.