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Why does god neglect the starving kids in Africa?

TylerDurdenn

By TylerDurdenn
in Spirituality & Religious Beliefs

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umirano Established Member

umirano

Posted
Posted
everyone makes their own choices in life including the choice to believe or not believe you have to believe in what feels right

 

If you have to believe in what is right then it isn't really a choice, right? I don't feel like my non-believing is a choice at all. I just can't believe in a deity, as proposed by the abrahamic religions (and any other religion I've heard of). Having an evil and very powerful being toying with us would make a whole lot more sense. BUT along the same lines, I have no a priori reason to think it exists either, as all the suffering in the world can be very well explained without invoking any kind of super natural entity.

  • Like 3
umirano Established Member

umirano

Posted
Posted
Going with option 3 is free will in practice.
No, that's incorrect. That is logic in practise, combined with the application of meaning to the terms used in the problem of evil.

 

God gave you that choice, and it most certainly is a choice.

You are assuming a god before allowing to determine whether there's a god. That renders the whole consideration pointless. And it is not a choice either. It's a conclusion. It's demanded by applying the laws of logic to the meanings of the terms in the problem of evil.

 

But I highlighted where you say, if he CAN'T. Because someone or something does not do something does not automatically follow that he or it CAN'T. I can do lots of things, but I don't.

 

  1. God exists
  2. God can eliminate evil
  3. Evil exists

  1. Conclusion: God wants evil to exist
  2. Conclusion: God is not omnibenevolent

 

There is something in the bible that says basically, because we are less than perfect beings, we cannot possibly understand a perfect being. That makes logical sense.

No it doesn't. I take it you mean god by the expression "a perfect being". If what you're saying is true, any claim about god is as useless as the other. If what you're saying is true no one knows anything about god, we would have no way of ever comparing, or even verifying two statements about god.
  • Like 3
firmness Established Member

firmness

Posted
Posted
Ummm, can you please find and quote wherein I said you will burn in hell if you don't believe in God???

I cannot take this comment seriously. I am assuming you are a Christian or a Muslim. Both of these systems are based on adherence and belief. If you do not get this about your own belief system, then there is nothing I can say to help you. Sort of like when someone is in love with a player. They are just doomed and it is only when it all falls apart that they see it.

 

 

 

 

Right out the gate your comments to me are all over the place. For starters, 'free will isn't what I think it is.' I haven't even begun to state what my thoughts on free will are. Our discussing and holding opposite views on the existence of God is PROOF in and of itself we are exercising free will.

You claimed that freewill is given by god. You said that. Since there is no such thing as god, you cannot claim that freewill comes from a mythical creature. What if I claimed it came from Zeuss? You might let me believe that but you would feel deep inside you that I was wrong. In fact you would KNOW that I was wrong. Because there is no Zeuess. He is an ancient myth. Try telling that to a believer.

 

 

YOU happen to believe differently than I do about where that free will comes from, but you certainly do not need to resort to being intolerant of me because I believe in God.

 

This is a common and sad tactic by believers. They can say whatever they want. They can make claims - the most preposterous claims imaginable "God was mysterious and just for flooding the entire planet and killing every unborn fetus and little innocent child because he felt like it" "Mary was a virgin"

 

We would not tolerate this in any other context. This is not me being intolerant, it is me being shocked!

 

 

You would do your argument a service if you were less accusatory and insulting and presumptious regarding my thoughts, and putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

 

Look. I get what you are saying, but please do not insult me by doing the whole new trendy thing where you claim a belief systems (Christian, I suspect) but every inconsistency, every past and current atrocity, every damage inflicted is dismissed with "Well, that is not MY Jesus. MY personal Jesus is the god of love and happiness"

 

Of COURSE I can make assumptions about belief systems. They are set in stone in a bible that everyone keeps referring back to over and over and over. How is it that you can rest your entire argument on that bible, but when I point out the inconsistencies in it, you say this ^^^?

 

I know I am wasting my time here. Only a non-believer can take in information and process it. Believers have faith and faith is the opposite of reality, truth, reason, and evidence. Faith is what you hold onto in the absence of those things - by its very definition!

 

So hold onto your belief. I would not begrudge you that. And I will step back and let you be. But you are online and you are making claims that are patently false. Just because you do not see this does not mean that it is okay.

 

There could be someone here who is hurting or despondent. We should all be offended if someone from a religious cult came here and tried to recruit them. That is how I see all of this. You did not do this explicitly, it is just part of the whole system. It is how the whole thing works.

 

I am sorry for you. For whatever led you to these conclusions. And I wish you well and hope that religion gives you what you need and are looking for.

  • Like 1
firmness Established Member

firmness

Posted
Posted (edited)
Firmness, would it be horrific and sad to you if I believed in cute fairies? Why?

 

Because to my knowledge, no women were burned at the stake because the fairies told them so. No fairies raped little boys by the thousands (or more). Fairies did not orchestrated the Inquisitions, 9/11, the Crusades, Genocide, or the Holocaust (Hitler was a Christian - look it up). Fairies have not castigated, arrested, tortured and murdered countless scientists for trying to explain the world around us and holding back progress to a degree that we will never know how far we could have come otherwise.

 

Fairies do not commit atrocities. That's why.

 

 

 

Is it really horrific, HORRIFIC, to you that people believe in God?

Yes. It is.

 

Imagine if everywhere you turned you saw a swastika perched on top of random buildings. Imagine if you lived in a country in which random people wore swastika's around their neck on chains and had them tattooed. Imagine a world where Nazis when into sick people and tried to heal them by preaching the word of Hitler.

 

THAT is how it feels to me to see crosses everywhere.

 

Just the same way you can never separate that swastika from the atrocities committed in its name, you can never separate the cross from the atrocities committed in its name - and let's be clear; there have been significantly more atrocities committed in the name of the Judeo-Islamo-Christian god than any other tyrants including Hitler. The Nazis were around for about 11-12 years. Christianity has had 2,000 years. I am sure that Nazi supporters would come after me with the same zeal and self-righteousness that you are. But I will not have it and will call it out every time.

 

 

 

Do you realize what you're saying? Do you know how many people believe in God and act on that faith for the GOOD of others?? What is horrific is that you are feigning to be horrified at people's CHOICE to believe in what they want and can believe in. What's it to you?? I mean, really? So what if they are deluded?? So what if someone could prove God doesn't exist?

 

 

Just because a lot of people do it does not make it right. This is something I have only ever had to say to religious people. Think on that.

 

 

I suggest that you have the luxury of being an atheist, but why would you try to make people not believe something that gives them some comfort? Who are you to do that?? Would you tell a small child who is praying to a God they believe in, who is praying for an ill sibling, that there is no God?? Why would you??

Atheism a luxury? Wow. That's a new one.

 

I am not trying to make people believe or not believe anything. I just hate lies. I do not tolerate political parties, religions and any other "ism" that spews hate, racism, and other injustices on top of a history of atrocities against humanity that goes back several millennia, and then tries to couch it as "Comforting"

 

I just cannot believe you can write these things are really truly justify this.

 

You might as well be wearing a swastika on your t-shirt and claim: "this is MY swastika - MY Nazism is the belief system of love, and peace, and comfort. Why do you want me to give up my swastika."

 

That is honestly how I see it. What scares me the most is that so few believers have really ever read the bible and get what it is really about. That so many millions of people need this mess in order to feel good about themselves and treat others with basic human respect.

Edited by firmness
Missed some quote brackets
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firmness Established Member

firmness

Posted
Posted

 

A man is walking down the street. He’s the only one he can see, until he comes across a screaming, bleeding little boy. The boy has been stabbed multiple times, and will bleed to death unless someone helps him. The man has the power to help him, but instead, chooses not to. The reason is honestly irrelevant because the outcome is almost certain that unless someone else comes by quick and intervenes, this child is going to die...

.

 

Maiden, I like this one. It becomes very clear what this all means. The bible was written across several centuries by different people. There are numerous inconsistencies and fatal moral and ethical flaws.

 

And it is this singular characteristic that makes it most dangerous. People are looking to a corrupt, unethical, and immoral belief system for their morals and ethics.

 

I have never once seen a believer acknowledge any fact. Ever. I am still waiting. One of the thrills of my lifetime was when I was a teenager and a priest admitted to me that he wavers between atheism and faith. What a good man! They do not make them like that any more I can tell you.

 

All you are likely to get here is what we always get. Repetition, emotion, and claims that YOU are angry, bitter, mean, judging.

 

There is no fixing or changing this. All we can do is hope that just one single young person can read this and know that there are others out there who are not afraid. That we are morally and ethically way beyond such systems and that they are not alone.

 

Just one and this becomes all worth it.

 

Keep going Eowyn. And for the record, Aragorn chose the wrong woman...

  • Like 2
KathyM Established Member

KathyM

Posted
Posted

Why do people neglect the starving kids in Africa? God provided all the food necessary to feed the people on earth. If people fail to distribute it to those in need, then that is their fault, is it not? When was the last time you sponsored a starving child or sent a care package to a starving child, or do you just like to complain and blame God rather than doing something about it yourself and encouraging others to sponsor a hungry child?

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KathyM Established Member

KathyM

Posted
Posted
Of course, God is blameless. Let's not blame the alleged omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being for anything that goes wrong in the world that he apparently has the power to fix, but chooses not to. :rolleyes:

He gave us the resources. If we chose not to distribute them, then that is the fault of man, not God.

  • Like 4
KathyM Established Member

KathyM

Posted
Posted

In fact, God instructed us to feed the poor, clothe the poor, and care for the poor. We have the ability and resources to do that, but some choose not to, and then blame God.

  • Like 3
umirano Established Member

umirano

Posted
Posted (edited)
Why do people neglect the starving kids in Africa?

They actually don't. God does. The only ones doing something about the kids in Africa are people. Not god.

 

God provided all the food necessary to feed the people on earth.

You assert a god. Why?

 

If people fail to distribute it to those in need, then that is their fault, is it not?

Famines happened before people could influence the eco system on today's scale. Are humans also responsible for earthquakes and asteroid impacts?

 

When was the last time you sponsored a starving child or sent a care package to a starving child

Argument from authority. A logical fallacy. Not a logical argument helping your cause.

 

or do you just like to complain and blame God

You assert he exists. Explain why he is so cruel.

 

rather than doing something about it yourself and encouraging others to sponsor a hungry child?

Holier than thou.

 

Also:

Believing (and telling others) that every evil and suffering will be rectified "later" by a magical power is what prevents people from helping NOW and HERE. It prevents people from taking care of themselves and others, and it makes them leave their well being to an imaginary being. So, what are you doing to better our circumstances?

Edited by umirano
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KathyM Established Member

KathyM

Posted
Posted
They actually don't. God does. The only ones doing something about the kids in Africa are people. Not god.

 

You assert a god. Why?

 

Famines happened before people could influence the eco system on today's scale. Are humans also responsible for earthquakes and asteroid impacts?

 

 

Argument from authority. A logical fallacy. Not a logical argument helping your cause.

 

 

You assert he exists. Explain why he is so cruel.

 

Holier than thou.

 

Also:

Believing (and telling others) that every evil and suffering will be rectified "later" by a magical power is what prevents people from helping NOW and HERE. It prevents people from taking care of themselves and others, and leaving their well being to an imaginary being. So, what are you doing to better our circumstances?

Well, I'm spending a heck of a lot of time caring for the poor by providing them with much needed psychological services. People who are poor, depressed, abused, dysfunctional, etc., etc. How about you? Or are you all talk and no action?

  • Like 2
umirano Established Member

umirano

Posted
Posted
In fact, God instructed us to feed the poor, clothe the poor, and care for the poor.

But you'd also help the poor if there was no god to instruct you so, right?

 

We have the ability and resources to do that,

Actually we don't have the resources to prevent hurricanes or earthquakes. You know there's a god. He actively kills, or at least negligently looks on when thousands die in a hurricane?

 

Your god looks on every day when little kids are raped behind closed curtains or in basements. He has the power to stop the rapists. He doesn't. At best he says "Go on, I'll deal with you later." He has no mercy for the child. I'd do something if I was omnipotent. You'd do something if you were omnipotent. Every single poster on this thread would probably. We're all more moral than your god.

 

but some choose not to, and then blame God.
So everybody who points out the problem is guaranteed to never ever have chosen to help? I have helped. I'm a first responder in case of natural and technical disasters in my country. I'd risk my life for others. Your assertion is arrogant.
umirano Established Member

umirano

Posted
Posted
Of course, God is blameless. Let's not blame the alleged omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being for anything that goes wrong in the world that he apparently has the power to fix, but chooses not to. :rolleyes:

 

Right, in a family where the children beat each other up and where the river at the far end of the garden floods the house regularly and kills the toddlers no one would blame the father in the household for making bad choices (where to live) and not stepping in when violence rages among his kids.

 

In any other setting the person with the most power, knowledge and rank is ultimately responsible. Always. Somehow in religion, which claims to explain everything, from purpose of life to natural history these customs are completely ignored.

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pureinheart Established Member

pureinheart

Posted
Posted

Actually we don't have the resources to prevent hurricanes or earthquakes. You know there's a god. He actively kills, or at least negligently looks on when thousands die in a hurricane?

 

 

Prior to the Flood, I don't believe there were natural disasters, but someone with more knowledge might have to correct me on this one. If this is correct then again this would be man and the state this earth was in....hummm it's just about there again...

BetheButterfly Established Member

BetheButterfly

Posted
Posted
Please tell me?

 

God doesn't neglect them.

 

God does want people to help them. If you read Jesus' teachings accounted in the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus stresses the importance of helping those in need. Jesus told the following parable that shows the vital importance of helping them:

(I boldened some.)

 

Matthew 25 (Complete Jewish Bible)

"34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you made me your guest, 36 I needed clothes and you provided them, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the people who have done what God wants will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and make you our guest, or needing clothes and provide them? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 The King will say to them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you did these things for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did them for me!’ 41 “Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, ‘Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 a stranger and you did not welcome me, needing clothes and you did not give them to me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, a stranger, needing clothes, sick or in prison, and not take care of you?’ 45 And he will answer them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you refused to do it for the least important of these people, you refused to do it for me!’ 46 They will go off to eternal punishment, but those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life.”

 

 

God wants us to help other people. It is our responsibility to do so and we will be judged for if we help others or not.

  • Like 3
BetheButterfly Established Member

BetheButterfly

Posted
Posted
There's a great limit to what one person can do.

 

True.

 

TD could sell all his possessions and use all his money to buy food for starving kids in Africa, talk himself hoarse trying to get others to do the same, petition his government that's far more interested in spending half a trillion dollars a year on weapons than on alleviating poverty, and probably not even make a tiny dent in the problem.

 

Untrue. Every person can help other people. Some people help only a few. Others help many. However, to the one person who is being helped, that person is not a "tiny dent" but rather a person who is worth it.

The same is true of every other person in the world. To say nothing of the fact that mobilizing all those people and producing a sociologically seismic shift in priorities, if it is possible at all, will take years to accomplish. In the meantime, millions more will starve to death.

 

If every person who has would use his or her wealth to help those in need instead of spending his/her with on his/her own desires, then nobody would be starving to death.

 

You're right in that not all people are going to care about those in need. That's a sad fact of life, that many people would rather spend their wealth on themselves than help those in need. However, when people choose to help those in need instead of satisfying their own material desires, that helps make the world a better place and helps at least one less person from starving to death. Every one counts.

"God", being all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful, knows all of the above and yet chooses to do nothing. Which means one of two things:

 

1. He/she/it is negligent, willfully blind, or malicious.

 

2. He/she/it doesn't exist.

 

Those who know God personally understand that life on earth is not all there is. While some people believe there are other dimensions, the spiritual realm is not understood by many people who judge God. Why? Because they don't have a "spirit scope" to be able to see the spiritual domain that encompasses and surpasses the physical.

 

just like people use a microscope to see what is too tiny for human eyes to see without one, and people use a telescope to see what is too far for human eyes to see without one, so people cannot see the Spiritual with their limited physical eyes.

 

Life on earth is only a test. It's not the all in all to life.

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Clair93 Established Member

Clair93

Posted
Posted

I find it strange that when non-believers state the problem of evil, some believers think we're blaming God for the suffering and evil in the world. Things that we don't believe exist can't obviously be responsible for anything.

 

It's all about the God character, as explained in major religions, being incompatible with our observations in the world (i.e. a contradiction). An all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving God cannot allow evil to exist. And no, free will does not solve the problem of evil, and the majority of the pain and suffering in the world are not caused by the will of intelligent agents who have free will.

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firmness Established Member

firmness

Posted
Posted

 

Life on earth is only a test. It's not the all in all to life.

 

Thanks for this. I agree. Job might disagree, but I never asked him:

 

Job 1: God To Satan: Hey, check out Job. He is amazing and he loves me.

Satan: Oh yeah, prove it!

God: I will make him suffer unbelievably. I will smite the living crap out of him and he will not curse me.

Satan: Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you - ahem - I mean. Okay.

God: *Zaps the living crap out of Job. Farm animals gone, wealth gone, kills children, plagues sores, disease, etc.*

Job: Long rant, followed by "God, what did I do wrong? Ouch - this hurts. A LOT!

God: Job 38 "How DARE you question me! Where were you when I made everything. Stop complaining. Satan tricked me into a bet and you passed my "test" now stop complaining or I will smite you even more. How dare you question me! The almighty smiter of all smiters!

Job: Okay. Okay. Shutting up.Sorry god. It's just these sores are oozing. If forgot my place. No more smiting. I love you. Let me put my freewill into action and worship you for this.

 

_________________________________

 

Or perhaps this little number from Exodus:

 

God: Go tell Pharaoh to let my people go. I will send swarms and palgues and stuff and kill the first born of Egypt. Then he will let you go, but then I will harden his heart and send him after you (when when he changes his mind because of the infanticide I inflicted). Then check this out, you can dramatically part the seas and make a hasty retreat - into the miserable scorching desert to wander aimlessly for 40 years. Yeah, do that.

 

Moses: Uh. Okay.

_______________________________

Then there is this great classic:

 

Mary: Um Joseph. I have something to tell you.

Joseph: My 13/14 year old virgin wife. Mary. Love of my life. Tell me. I am here.

Mary: Well, I am pregnant.

Joseph: Um. What did you just say?

Mary: Before you get upset, just hear me out. You see, in the middle of the night, this "angel" "Came upon me" (Luke 1:35)" and, well, gave, um bequeathed, um...no...inserted..well. I am just pregnant. But ignore the obvious, I really AM a virgin. Just know that it is because GOD said so.

Joseph: Ohhh. God. Why didn't you say so. I love you Mary. We are so blessed. Blessed be God! What's for dinner?

 

Yes. Life is a test indeed.

LivingWaterPlease Established Member

LivingWaterPlease

Posted
Posted

Not sure if this is allowed on LS or not. Guess it will be removed if not:

 

If you doubt God is helping starving children of Africa here are a couple of links where you can read what He is doing to help them through believers in Him.

 

This group visited our church many years ago and gave us the opportunity to sponsor a child for food and education.

 

Sponsor a Child

 

Here's another group I'm familiar with:

 

ADRA

 

These are just two of the probably many Christian organizations who have offered to allow others to help children and adults, both, around the world, including Africa, who need it.

 

ADRA also helps people in the USA who are victims of floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. Not sure about World Vision's policy on this.

  • Like 2
LivingWaterPlease Established Member

LivingWaterPlease

Posted
Posted

Just posted links to a couple of Christian non profit organizations dedicated solely to feeding and helping the poor in Africa and all around the globe. It may be taken down if it's not appropriate for LS. Don't know the rules on this.

 

However, if it is you can google, "International Christian organizations helping feed the poor" and come up with quite a good list of people helping feed the poor in third world countries that proves God is not ignoring the starving children of the world.

Scorpio Chick Established Member

Scorpio Chick

Posted
Posted
We might as well discuss YOUR morality?

 

Interesting you bring up the notion of MORALITY. Would you mind giving your definition of morality and then expounding on that definition about how it matters in a universe where God doesn't exist?

 

Is this the subject of the thread? To me it's the problem of evil.

 

Interesting you bring up evil, further qualifying it as being a "problem". Pray tell (pun intended ;)), what is evil? What is umirano's definition, thoughts, and understanding of what evil is, and further, if you wouldn't mind, expound upon if there is evil, then is there also good, and if so, WHERE *might* that good stem from? And if we are just beings that somehow randomly got formed and are just here, why would good and evil even be on our minds or rather, how is that we recognize it?

 

I am not accountable to Scorpio Chick in any way.

 

Of course you're not accountable to me, in any way. You might, however, be accountable to something that created me. Jus' sayin.

 

I could claim to have started a famine or having saved a hundred thousand children. No one here has the ability to verify independently any of my claims to my donating.

 

Tyler Durden seems to have proof that not only God isn't doing anything to help starving children in Africa, but worse, he is maliciously not intervening. I agree with you, NO ONE HERE HAS THE ABILITY TO VERIFY INDEPENDENTLY to your claims, or my claims, or whatever claims I am alluding to by my questions, so I ask you: if we are unable to do that with each other, with other humans - HOW IN THE HECK CAN WE DO THAT WITH GOD????? Tyler Durden and people that think in alignment with him sure profess to KNOW what a God that they assert doesn't even exist is or isn't doing. :confused:

 

Independent verification of proof is something the religious seem to avoid like the pest, so your demand fits right in.

 

I would refer you to your own statement right above, the one wherein you state, "NO ONE HERE HAS THE ABILITY TO VERIFY INDEPENDENTLY...." what any of us are doing or not doing. Yet you not only assert but not knowing me personally, you still make an assumption that because I claim to believe in God that I am "religious". You need to check your definition of religious. Believing in something does not make you religious. I 'religiously' wash my face morning and night. I 'religiously' go to the gym. I haven't stepped inside a church of any denomination in over a year and I haven't read the bible in a longer amount of time. So, provided I am telling the truth, umiron, am I religious?

 

Your getting so worked up what I did personally has no bearing on the gravity of the problem of evil. All you're showing is that you have no idea what this thread is about, and you're not willing to understand it. You're returning to the Argument from Authority which is a grade A logical fallacy. You're not furthering the discussion at all.

 

You can call my posting on a thread that captured my interest as 'getting worked up', presumably you lob that meaning to insult me, so be it. And further, to state I have "no idea what this thread is about", well, it's just juvenile and does not serve to stay on topic. To say also that I'm not furthering the discussion is also juvenile in clear, verifiable light of the numerous posts I have made on here and the truth is, while he is under no obligation to do so, the very person who started this thread has apparently abandoned it. Oh, he has liked several posts I see, since he stopped posting, and all the posts he has liked, coincidentally - are posts that are in alignment with his paradigm of thought on the subject he raised. He hasn't 'liked' one of my posts yet. I still have hope, being the hopeful person I am. :cool:

 

Given the above limitations on the usefulness of accounts of personal involvement, here is some of what I do, to make earth a better place. I donate to several local organizations and I volunteer in my country. I oppose religious thinking and the resulting lack of morality. I oppose the resulting poisoning of the discussion (such as Scorpio Chick's posts).

 

Wow, umiron. I'm POISONING the discussion? Do you always insult people that disagree with you?

 

I try to help people by teaching them to think realistically,

 

Are you a teacher? I have to say in all my life, it has never occurred to me to "teach" someone how to think!

to focus on what is in our power to change.

 

I would suggest when children are starving, WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO BE TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO THINK. Look, I have money in my pocket RIGHT NOW, and maybe I don't think the same way you do, umiron, but I think food is a lot more nutritious to a starving child than realistic thinking!

 

To separate the relevant from the irrelevant, the observable from speculation. The real from the imagination and wishful thinking. None of the developments that improved our living circumstances (medicine, technology for communication, mobility, shelter against natural forces, rule of law) have come from prayer.

 

Again, how can you verify that independently?

Everything has come from hard work (manual and intellectual).

True! And I would further suggest that the intellectual has to come, pretty much before the manual. So you're right, and when children are starving, the time for discussing is OVER. Arguing with believers gets NOTHING accomplished. It does not put food in the mouths of starving children. Period. And tell me how the following statement is wrong: if the only reason someone were to contribute financially to aiding the starving children, was solely based on their belief in God, would you talk them out of that belief? Would you tell them they donated for the wrong reason? You believe in discussing, so please, discuss that.

 

Religion has only marginally contributed in the sense that it was a first, very naive attempt at metaphysics and it may have helped starting a system of education. But it failed at explaining the world, we know that now.

 

Again, how can we know that if your previous statement regarding our inability to verify is true? The moral claims are outrageous.

 

It has caused suffering

 

Believing in God has caused suffering? Ok, I will indulge you on that. So if everyone was an atheist, would suffering cease?

 

Get off your high horse Scorpio Chick. Sending money half way around the earth and washing your hands over it and calling yourself more moral than anyone non-believer doesn't cut it. You probably should look at the amount of money that is diverted away from humanitarian aid and goes directly into arms purchases. Actual influence does change things. Here I am doing something which will help humanity in the long run. I assure you I do so offline too.

 

HOW are you helping humanity? I mean, specifically? By trying to change believers into atheists? How does that help humanity? If you believe that it should be no problem to explain it because I would love to know how to help humanity.

I am sure you will dodge most of my post, especially me calling you out on diverting the discussion away from the unresolved problem of evil. Todreaminblue is the only poster who actually started addressing it so far. Can you keep up with her? Or are you going to escape to another unrelated question?

 

Okay, umiron. As you can see, I didn't dodge! Let's engage! :) And, could you lighten up on the insulting??

  • Like 1
lil hoodlum Established Member

lil hoodlum

Posted
Posted

God allows us to have free will and does not interfere.

 

We all have and make choices in life. God could intervine if He wanted to but it may infringe on our right to free will.

 

We have to accept responsibilities for the choices we make in life, both the good and bad consequences.

 

 

My question is, why are people in Africa in these starving areas having children that they can't feed?

 

Shouldn't they be the ones who are ultimately responsible for the caring and feeding of these children?

lil hoodlum Established Member

lil hoodlum

Posted
Posted
Thanks for this. I agree. Job might disagree, but I never asked him:

 

Job 1: God To Satan: Hey, check out Job. He is amazing and he loves me.

Satan: Oh yeah, prove it!

God: I will make him suffer unbelievably. I will smite the living crap out of him and he will not curse me.

Satan: Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you - ahem - I mean. Okay.

God: *Zaps the living crap out of Job. Farm animals gone, wealth gone, kills children, plagues sores, disease, etc.*

Job: Long rant, followed by "God, what did I do wrong? Ouch - this hurts. A LOT!

God: Job 38 "How DARE you question me! Where were you when I made everything. Stop complaining. Satan tricked me into a bet and you passed my "test" now stop complaining or I will smite you even more. How dare you question me! The almighty smiter of all smiters!

Job: Okay. Okay. Shutting up.Sorry god. It's just these sores are oozing. If forgot my place. No more smiting. I love you. Let me put my freewill into action and worship you for this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that you have the main people involved wrong. It was not God who made Job suffer but Satan. God allowed Satan to do it as a test. He told him, Satan, that he could do anything to Job as long as it did not kill him. Yes, it was a test. Job passed the test as he would not renounce God. Afterwards God restored Job and blessed him beyond belief.

  • Like 2
firmness Established Member

firmness

Posted
Posted

 

 

It was not God who made Job suffer but Satan. God allowed Satan to do it as a test. He told him, Satan, that he could do anything to Job as long as it did not kill him. Yes, it was a test. Job passed the test as he would not renounce God. Afterwards God restored Job and blessed him beyond belief.

 

God "restored" Job? He "let Satan" kill his children.

 

God let Satan have his way with Job. God, goaded by Satan, let Satan attack Job and utterly ruin his life. Satan killed his entire family. If someone came to me and killed my entire family, and later said "Hey here is this replacement family, you are now restored" I cannot tell you what I would think of that person. Just the thought of that is so disgusting I can hardly believe you wrote it.

 

According to the bible, Satan says to God “Stretch out your hand and strike everything he has...and he will surely curse you to your face.”

 

God may have turned it over to Satan, but that is the same thing as Stretching out his hand. He is GOD for goodness sake. He made this whole thing happen. And what is with God negotiating with Satan in the first place. Does no one find this even slightly odd?

 

Satan played God for a fool and won. That one passage is enough for me. I need no further proof or anything.

 

If Satan can manipulate God so easily - and let's be honest this is not the first time - Garden of Eden, tempting his son in the desert etc. - then who is the real God?

 

If God is truly up there and in charge, we are in such deep deep trouble when we die. What happens the next time Satan gets a good idea and goes to God and says, "psst. Hey. God. lihoodlum looks yummy. Let's make a deal..."

lil hoodlum Established Member

lil hoodlum

Posted
Posted
God "restored" Job? He "let Satan" kill his children.

 

God let Satan have his way with Job. God, goaded by Satan, let Satan attack Job and utterly ruin his life. Satan killed his entire family. If someone came to me and killed my entire family, and later said "Hey here is this replacement family, you are now restored" I cannot tell you what I would think of that person. Just the thought of that is so disgusting I can hardly believe you wrote it.

 

According to the bible, Satan says to God “Stretch out your hand and strike everything he has...and he will surely curse you to your face.”

 

God may have turned it over to Satan, but that is the same thing as Stretching out his hand. He is GOD for goodness sake. He made this whole thing happen. And what is with God negotiating with Satan in the first place. Does no one find this even slightly odd?

 

Satan played God for a fool and won. That one passage is enough for me. I need no further proof or anything.

 

If Satan can manipulate God so easily - and let's be honest this is not the first time - Garden of Eden, tempting his son in the desert etc. - then who is the real God?

 

If God is truly up there and in charge, we are in such deep deep trouble when we die. What happens the next time Satan gets a good idea and goes to God and says, "psst. Hey. God. lihoodlum looks yummy. Let's make a deal..."

 

 

Maybe I don't understand but, how did Satan play God for a fool and win?

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