Why does god neglect the starving kids in Africa?

[umirano]

i want to ask you honestly what you believe in,

Well, if I look at the problem of evil and the four possibilities of answering it, obviously I think it's #1. All the evil, the suffering in the world is perfectly explained by the nature of our universe. Catastrophes happen. We know how drought, diseases, asteroids, etc. come about. Asking why opens a can of worms in the sense that people want to assign meaning to them. I believe there is no meaning to a flood or a storm. Believers assume there's a god who at least looks on if not actively causes the disaster.

 

because this argument is circular

Which argument is circular?

 

about god is or god isnt you have left out number three

Number three of what have I left out??

 

...i think it i simportant a topic

I agree.

 

.......what do you believe evil is

Well, the thought of someone having all the possible powers in our universe and using it to cause suffering, and simultaneously claiming to be omnibenevolent that seems to be a very good example of evil.

 

Generally I'd say evil is the negligent or intentional causing of unnecessary suffering. In this thread it has been argued the godly causing of suffering is necessary (to prove a point, to make us see his plan, etc.). I'm still a little appalled by that.

 

.....evil in people where does it come from......deb

In people? Greed, not caring about others, not taking someone else's POV, putting oneself first. Being taught the wrong values: I deserve more/better things than someone else because I'm XYZ. XYZ being one of the many many justifications given for violence against others. I think the evil is in the universe because to some extent living beings are selfish. And then there's the suffering caused by natural disasters (i.e. suffering without anyone's negligence or intention behind it).

[todreaminblue]

Well, if I look at the problem of evil and the four possibilities of answering it, obviously I think it's #1. All the evil, the suffering in the world is perfectly explained by the nature of our universe. Catastrophes happen. We know how drought, diseases, asteroids, etc. come about. Asking why opens a can of worms in the sense that people want to assign meaning to them. I believe there is no meaning to a flood or a storm. Believers assume there's a god who at least looks on if not actively causes the disaster.

 

 

what is the nature of the universe where were these qualities inherited from?

 

 

The nature of natural disasters where were they born from?

 

 

Which argument is circular?

 

 

trying to argue if there is a god or not a god is circular...infinite possibility it doesnt end the battle of this has raged for centuries no closer to resolution then to now.....circular in other words.....

 

 

Number three of what have I left out??

 

 

you stated must be two or four any takers? in your comment i wanted to know why you didnt include your number three.......

 

 

I agree.

 

 

yay

 

woot woot common ground

 

 

Well, the thought of someone having all the possible powers in our universe and using it to cause suffering, and simultaneously claiming to be omnibenevolent that seems to be a very good example of evil.

 

Generally I'd say evil is the negligent or intentional causing of unnecessary suffering. In this thread it has been argued the godly causing of suffering is necessary (to prove a point, to make us see his plan, etc.). I'm still a little appalled by that.

 

.....evil in people where does it come from......deb

In people? Greed, not caring about others, not taking someone else's POV, putting oneself first. Being taught the wrong values: I deserve more/better things than someone else because I'm XYZ. XYZ being one of the many many justifications given for violence against others. I think the evil is in the universe because to some extent living beings are selfish. And then there's the suffering caused by natural disasters (i.e. suffering without anyone's negligence or intention behind it).

 

who says evil isn't necessary? for if we know not evil we know not what is good......if we didn't know of suffering would we want to ease what we do not know......deb

 

 

Do you feel natural disasters might occur because something needs to be done or stopped with the earth, that preparation for future disasters needs to be considered ......and that in times of natural disasters you actually see humanity pull together for the good of all who suffer...you see heroism and unfailing charity ........courage in the face of suffering....and on the flip side you get to see the worst in some......looting pillaging.......to counteract ......you see good and evil..therefore you recognize and seek to do good see good admire good.......and the traits most admired of course.....is good

 

even though evil abounds ....grace super abounds in suffering, in wretched, in torn places and in people...so therefore that the word hope is also found and known in the word hope"less"..........deb

Edited June 27, 2014 by todreaminblue

[umirano]

what is the nature of the universe

That's a good question. By that expression I mean the collection of physical processes that take place and influence our environment and thus our well being.

 

where were these qualities inherited from?

By asking this question you're implying that they were inherited in the first place. I don't know that, so I wouldn't know where they would be inherited from.

 

natural disasters where were they born from?

Natural disasters take place because the universe (and the area where humans live included) is a chaotic, unstable environment. The earth mantle isn't a stable crust, the atmosphere is subject to extreme changes due to the spin of the earth, chemical and physical changes over time, etc.

 

What I mean is that the processes that lead to natural disasters are understood. No one placed the disasters here for us.

 

 

 

trying to argue if there is a god or not a god is circular...infinite possibility it doesnt end the battle of this has raged for centuries no closer to resolution then to now.....circular in other words.....

Oh I see what you mean. Normally circularity of a logical argument means something else (namely basing the premise on the conclusion). You're talking about the constant return of this debate. I don't quite agree that we're no closer to resolution. Clearly pushing religion back, mostly from politics and science has vastly improved our circumstances. So I don't think it is a bad thing for this debate to be brought up again and again. We wouldn't be where we are now if every skeptic shut up every time he had the chance to change someone's mind throughout history.

 

 

you stated must be two or four any takers? in your comment i wanted to know why you didnt include your number three.......

I meant #2 to #4 including #3, I abbreviated with the '-' .

 

 

who says evil isn't necessary? for if we know not evil we know not what is good......if we didn't know of suffering would we want to ease what we do not know......deb

Ok, when there's an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent god, what exactly is evil necessary for? From your response I take it you're going for #3 then: What we say is evil, isn't really, because it is necessary to teach us what good is. Do I understand you correctly?

 

Do you feel natural disasters might occur because something needs to be done or stopped with the earth

No, I don't think they have a deeper meaning or an intention behind them.

 

, that preparation fro disasters needs to eb considered ......and that in times of natural disasters you actually see humanity pull together for the good of all who suffer...you see heroism and unfailing charity ........courage in the face of suffering....and on the flip side you get to see the worst in some......looting pillaging.......to counteract ......you see good and evil..

Yeah, obviously not all of humanity is evil, and not all are good. But this observation doesn't answer the problem of evil.

 

therefore you recognise and seek to do good see good admire good.......and the traits most admired of course.....is good

Ok so god and his creation pays a price for learning "good". The price is suffering. This certainly violates the claim of absolute omnibenvolence. Now you could argue a relative omnibenvolence, i.e. that the overall suffering is outweighed by the overall good. Is that what you are saying?

 

Regards, Umirano

Edited June 27, 2014 by umirano

[DarkKnight1]

He/She/It Doesent. Africa Is One of The RICHEST Lands ,But Unfortunately Colonialism caused the land to be raped and the people to be poorly treated by its captors. this is not gods work but Mankinds but the law of cause and effect is incoming!!!

[todreaminblue]

That's a good question. By that expression I mean the collection of physical processes that take place and influence our environment and thus our well being.

 

 

By asking this question you're implying that they were inherited in the first place. I don't know that, so I wouldn't know where they would be inherited from.

 

 

 

Nature has inherited physical processes, existing as inseparable and permanent elements, qualities and attributes that allows us to exist as natural man........why is this so......why does it matter.......and since we are basically atoms and molecules that are inherited why have we inherited similar characteristics as a whole species? What purpose do we have with the inherited characteristics and atoms and molecules.....what purpose does nature have to be here......

 

why do we exist is it to influence change to our natural environment......and if this is the case how can we exhibit change to an innate world, change would not happen would it? if chaos reigned supreme the world would have died out a logn time ago

 

 

 

 

Natural disasters take place because the universe (and the area where humans live included) is a chaotic, unstable environment. The earth mantle isn't a stable crust, the atmosphere is subject to extreme changes due to the spin of the earth, chemical and physical changes over time, etc.

 

 

so the chaos theory ...not a fan of this theory as it doesn't allow for hope to exist......people need hope to survive, a world without hope well thats end of days in my mind not chaos just the end

 

 

 

What I mean is that the processes that lead to natural disasters are understood. No one placed the disasters here for us.

 

not one person did place a natural disaster but we do as you have stated influence change to the natural environment often not for the greater good.....often forcing natural disasters to build....the ozone layer, the melting caps, deforestation erosion of top soil etc.....land slides......rising sea levels

 

we are influencing a perfect design.....why was that design created...fro no reason? just sprung up because the universe was bored and decided to form random things and place them in a perfect design...clever molecules.....amazing to think about ...a molecule that creates basically a perfect design but, cant exist to be on its own and is useless actually if it were to be a single entity, only makes sense if you add an opposing factor a contributing equation and or theory...and a resolution then for its existence.......

 

 

 

Oh I see what you mean. Normally circularity of a logical argument means something else (namely basing the premise on the conclusion). You're talking about the constant return of this debate. I don't quite agree that we're no closer to resolution. Clearly pushing religion back, mostly from politics and science has vastly improved our circumstances. So I don't think it is a bad thing for this debate to be brought up again and again. We wouldn't be where we are now if every skeptic shut up every time he had the chance to change someone's mind throughout history.

 

 

no i truly believe everybody has a right to share with respect given openly, to thoughts and beliefs held by others, and to discuss topics it is growth and to ask questions....i love asking questions and getting answers..... i dont like infinite circles......they are tiring and to me bring us back to the same impasse where we started at, that is why i chose to ask questions with you , i respect you, also then, i can understand you as a person and what you believe in and share with you my own thoughts and ask even more random childish questions......

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, when there's an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent god, what exactly is evil necessary for? From your response I take it you're going for #3 then: What we say is evil, isn't really, because it is necessary to teach us what good is. Do I understand you correctly?

 

 

No, I don't think they have a deeper meaning or an intention behind them.

 

Yeah, obviously not all of humanity is evil, and not all are good. But this observation doesn't answer the problem of evil.

 

Ok so god and his creation pays a price for learning "good". The price is suffering. This certainly violates the claim of absolute omnibenvolence. Now you could argue a relative omnibenvolence, i.e. that the overall suffering is outweighed by the overall good. Is that what you are saying?

 

Regards, Umirano

 

 

i am saying that if evil didnt exist we wouldnt know good and that if good didnt exist, we wouldnt know evil, we would not distinguish anything, or everything as having either inherent characteristics , we would not aspire to be good or aspire to be evil if those words were not in direct opposition of each other..that god is omnipresent because he exists in all places at all times allowing both evil adn good to exist in tandem and harmony of the agency to choose, and mercifully and eternally for omni's sake he gave us agency to decide ourselves

 

 

the ultimate in omni...all times all places everywhere all people good and bad.....exist as a design that has purpose and reason for being

 

 

 

god super abounds grace among evil as he is omnibenvolence absolute he is all and never less....that agency graciously was given so that we may know and see the difference and choose as our god given right to be whither way inclined......

 

 

what do you aspire to umi? what is your most cherished aspiration umi is it to try and prove god doesnt exist......to sway people of faith or do you really want to believe......

 

with equal regards...deb

Edited June 28, 2014 by todreaminblue

[pie2]

“Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

 

Sad, but true.

 

In my experience, there are always going to be people who have been taken advantage of by someone more powerful. There will always be people who were born into a certain lot in life.

 

And there will always be some people who, though the claim to want something different, really don't want a change in their circumstances. People who, even if they're given an opportunity, will shy away from it, or sabotage it, or just throw the opportunity away. The idea of change and the unknown is too scary. Even if they live in poverty and are offered a new life, they may not know how to handle the different style of living.

 

And I can see how thinking outside of the box and imagining a different life can be difficult. I personally don't love too much change! In fact, most of us get stuck in certain patterns of living, and don't know how to do it differently.

 

But yeah, the problem of poverty is much bigger than just throwing money at it. It is sometimes inevitable. And in other ways it's such a monumental problem, even the most powerful nations on earth don't know quite how to tackle it.

 

(Obviously children are innocents in all of this...they're not really responsible for providing for themselves)

[TheFinalWord]

Sad, but true.

 

In my experience, there are always going to be people who have been taken advantage of by someone more powerful. There will always be people who were born into a certain lot in life.

 

And there will always be some people who, though the claim to want something different, really don't want a change in their circumstances. People who, even if they're given an opportunity, will shy away from it, or sabotage it, or just throw the opportunity away. The idea of change and the unknown is too scary. Even if they live in poverty and are offered a new life, they may not know how to handle the different style of living.

 

And I can see how thinking outside of the box and imagining a different life can be difficult. I personally don't love too much change! In fact, most of us get stuck in certain patterns of living, and don't know how to do it differently.

 

But yeah, the problem of poverty is much bigger than just throwing money at it. It is sometimes inevitable. And in other ways it's such a monumental problem, even the most powerful nations on earth don't know quite how to tackle it.

 

(Obviously children are innocents in all of this...they're not really responsible for providing for themselves)

 

Good points!

 

Interestingly, Israel had a system in place to assist the poor and hungry, called gleaning:

 

“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the Lord your God.’”

 

Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. `Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God.

 

"When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. "When you beat your olive tree, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow. "When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not go over it again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.

[pie2]

Good points!

 

Interestingly, Israel had a system in place to assist the poor and hungry, called gleaning

 

So true, TFW .

 

And I think similar systems are in place around the world. Not necessarily as obvious as gleaning the fields, but people are given opportunities to work when they want to. Not always. But there are many opportunities out there.

 

When I think of starving children in Africa, I think of images like (warning: they are very heartbreaking images) these or these. The media influences our perception of the problem in major ways (in good and sometimes bad ways).

 

Personally, I think the children in these pictures are suffering from a lack of medical care, not just a lack of food. There are many children around the world who need medical treatment to get their nutrition (through feeding tubes and nutritional supplements). If they didn't get their food through alternate methods, they would starve. Or, the children in the images need medical treatment for parasites...not necessarily just food.

 

Ugh! Seeing those pictures is so sad! I don't want one single child to suffer hunger for one day, one meal, one anything! I only mention the above because sometimes we perceive a problem to be simple (they're starving?! just give 'em food then!), when it's really much more complicated than we can possibly imagine.

 

If anyone is interested in reading more about why God, who is supposed to be all-powerful, allows pain and suffering, I recommend,

 

"The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis

 

Great author, great book. I hope someone can benefit from it as I have.

[TheFinalWord]

If anyone is interested in reading more about why God, who is supposed to be all-powerful, allows pain and suffering, I recommend,

 

"The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis

 

Great author, great book. I hope someone can benefit from it as I have.

 

Interesting and true!

 

Great story concerning Africa:

[pie2]

Interesting and true!

 

Great story concerning Africa:

 

Amazing story!! (I saw the video previously...on LS, I imagine ).

 

I love how he starts the video explaining a little about how he is the right person to be able to do such dramatic things in life. God had been prepping him from day one to be able to leave his life, withstand extreme danger, give unconditionally.

 

Earlier it was mentioned on this thread about why don't we all pick up and go to Africa to help? That would be nice, probably ! But truly, God did not make all of us to be able to do that. There are suffering people everywhere. And we can all contribute to the needs of others in different ways, different capacities, from different places in our lives. imo

Edited June 28, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed off topic remark

[William]

Noting Robert did some work in here, I'll post up a reminder that there is no LoveShack rule which requires members to post to any or every thread and such postings are completely voluntary and without duress. Hence, if the questions posed in this thread do not meet a particular member's standards of internet discussion, it's completely within our boundaries of decorum to ignore this thread, or any thread, like it never existed. It's OK!

 

If the topic is of interest, and note my purposeful emphasis on *topic*, then please discuss it. We welcome your input. Thanks!

[Arieswoman]

This might be of interest to the OP ;-

 

Why does God let bad things happen in the world? - explore faith

[LivingWaterPlease]

Nature has inherited physical processes, existing as inseparable and permanent elements, qualities and attributes that allows us to exist as natural man........why is this so......why does it matter.......and since we are basically atoms and molecules that are inherited why have we inherited similar characteristics as a whole species? What purpose do we have with the inherited characteristics and atoms and molecules.....what purpose does nature have to be here......

 

why do we exist is it to influence change to our natural environment......and if this is the case how can we exhibit change to an innate world, change would not happen would it? if chaos reigned supreme the world would have died out a logn time ago

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so the chaos theory ...not a fan of this theory as it doesn't allow for hope to exist......people need hope to survive, a world without hope well thats end of days in my mind not chaos just the end

 

 

 

 

 

not one person did place a natural disaster but we do as you have stated influence change to the natural environment often not for the greater good.....often forcing natural disasters to build....the ozone layer, the melting caps, deforestation erosion of top soil etc.....land slides......rising sea levels

 

we are influencing a perfect design.....why was that design created...fro no reason? just sprung up because the universe was bored and decided to form random things and place them in a perfect design...clever molecules.....amazing to think about ...a molecule that creates basically a perfect design but, cant exist to be on its own and is useless actually if it were to be a single entity, only makes sense if you add an opposing factor a contributing equation and or theory...and a resolution then for its existence.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

no i truly believe everybody has a right to share with respect given openly, to thoughts and beliefs held by others, and to discuss topics it is growth and to ask questions....i love asking questions and getting answers..... i dont like infinite circles......they are tiring and to me bring us back to the same impasse where we started at, that is why i chose to ask questions with you , i respect you, also then, i can understand you as a person and what you believe in and share with you my own thoughts and ask even more random childish questions......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i am saying that if evil didnt exist we wouldnt know good and that if good didnt exist, we wouldnt know evil, we would not distinguish anything, or everything as having either inherent characteristics , we would not aspire to be good or aspire to be evil if those words were not in direct opposition of each other..that god is omnipresent because he exists in all places at all times allowing both evil adn good to exist in tandem and harmony of the agency to choose, and mercifully and eternally for omni's sake he gave us agency to decide ourselves

 

 

the ultimate in omni...all times all places everywhere all people good and bad.....exist as a design that has purpose and reason for being

 

 

 

god super abounds grace among evil as he is omnibenvolence absolute he is all and never less....that agency graciously was given so that we may know and see the difference and choose as our god given right to be whither way inclined......

 

 

what do you aspire to umi? what is your most cherished aspiration umi is it to try and prove god doesnt exist......to sway people of faith or do you really want to believe......

 

with equal regards...deb

 

deb, I checked out the threads you've begun but didn't notice any that give the story of how you came to believe in God. Have you written it on LS? Don't want to t/j. Thanks.

[Scorpio Chick]

Isn't that obvious? At least for an omniscient being? Don't starve kids to prove a petty point.

 

Again, WHO is starving the kids? What do YOU do, besides posting on a forum, to help those children get fed? Honestly, do you do anything? Send money? Anything? If not, don't criticize anyone or shake your fist even at an all knowing God when YOU DO HAVE IT WITHIN YOUR CAPACITY TO DO SOMETHING. It doesn't make sense.

[todreaminblue]

deb, I checked out the threads you've begun but didn't notice any that give the story of how you came to believe in God. Have you written it on LS? Don't want to t/j. Thanks.

 

what does t/j mean?

 

 

hey living water....i had a few of my first threads removed but i have only ever once been asked about my faith by cerridwen actually she asked me why i am like i am.....luv cerri.....lol....

 

i would say i have always had faith because in a way i have always felt protected since about three when i was locked in a car in the middle of the outback and what i thought were wolves as a three year old(actually dingos)surrounded the car while my parents slept in the caravan they left me in the car because they were frisky .....i was too scared to get out for good reason and i had wet myself......so more dingos were attracted to that ....a voice told me to hide under the seat and to not run to the caravan because i was thinking about it......i got a very firm message to stay and hide.....that was my first time i had heard god......and i dont know why i was praying to him or how i even knew to pray but it was just there to pray.......if my mother were here i would get her to verify for you and anyone else who reads this that this occurred.....she still feels guilt though......

 

 

 

whne i was raped at five it was ongoing......for months......i became incontinent......and i would hide my underwear and clothes when i wet myself.....i would bury them...i would go for walks in the bush and i would stay there and talk to god.....i isolated myself from other children, from my parents and become extremely introverted......my grandpa was a man of faith......strong faith and a soldier too he was the first to notice a change in me he built my confidence up and i was able to tell my parents who then told him......then there was war....kidding....but the males in my family were very upset.......uncles grandparents with weaponry not so good......but my rapist and his wife disappeared lucky and i am glad they did...because my family would have got in trouble.....,......they took off......so they were never bought to justice......my grandfather gave em a book of old testament stories and told me hsi own stories about god.....i developed a fierce love of god....adn m grandpa didnt live very long in my life......but that time we spent together was always beautiful inspiring and uplifting.......

 

this gets harder now........

 

when he died i was in bed asleep....he came to me in a dream and he had his lovely dark shining hair again he was surrounded by a light.....and he was smiling at me like he always had......even when he was sick.....

 

he said to me everything is going to be ok deb, told me never to give up, told me he loved me and would see me soon, he told me not to cry......

 

when i came out in the morning my parents were crying on the lounge they said to me deb we have to tell you something......i said as soon as they said that ....i know mum grandpa is dead he told me not to cry he would see me soon.......my parents can verify that too......so i already knew before they even told......i have lots of incidents i have survived including violence where my bones or back should have been broken.......the only thing that makes any sense .....is god......and his love for me to keep living....i have a high iq could read before i was three...was writing stories at five for sick kids i knew.....god is good......no one can tell me different....without him....i would have been puppy chow at three and never got a chance to tell you or anyone else how i feel......and of this.....i will fiercely protect and say ....god is awesome even if bad things happen....i guess its what you do after those bad things that counts.......you can make a difference or go woe is me....woe is me sounds pretty boring........i choose to make a difference with the life i was given and the protection i have been afforded to make it through all i have without one broken bone......without god......i wouldnt exist and neither would anyone else...................deb

[todreaminblue]

Is this even for real?

 

God is supposedly an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being that could easily solve the world's hunger problem, if he wanted to. If he can't, let's scratch the omnipotent part out of his description because it clearly does not apply. People also have a tendency to claim that he's all-loving too, which is kind of hard to believe since he allows so much suffering to exist in the world, and does naff all about it (don't worry though-it's all for our own good really) and it's brought upon by us anyway, right? . It's simply hard for me to wrap my head around a supposedly all-loving god that allows suffering to happen on an epic scale. It doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very nature of love.

 

So we have three options here:

1)God can help, but chooses not to, and that would make him, well, for lack of a better word, evil.

2) God can't help because its not in his power to do so-so why call him god?

3) He does not exist.

 

I don't know about anyone else, I'm going with option 3.

 

 

everyone makes their own choices in life including the choice to believe or not believe you have to believe in what feels right what i am curious about is why it upsets you that people have faith?

 

and yes it is for real, the faith the poster has is a living and followed faith......so anything that is alive with a beating heart in my mind is real.....anything that can be followed has a right to lead in thoughts and purpose.......

 

 

so her belief is as real as your disbelief ...in direct opposition. and no less important to be considered than your own thoughts....and i would feel stronger than your disbelief is the power of belief

 

 

 

for having faith has a purpose to it.....a hope for peace and strength for all the bad things and thanks for all the good things...so yes a purpose is evident but i am unsure of your purpose?.....

 

 

 

having faith in all its entirety instigates change ,or cause and effect in an innate world............

 

 

 

what is your purpose in saying god doesnt exist?

 

what change do you want to see in people of faith?

 

 

what affect and or purpose does the spreading of a hope less world without a plan or design for being,or words of a rootless existence have for you and the the ones you love, who surround you?

 

 

 

.....cheers...deb

Edited June 28, 2014 by todreaminblue

[bubbaganoosh]

Because there's no oil where they are.

[Scorpio Chick]

God is supposedly an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being that could easily solve the world's hunger problem, if he wanted to. If he can't, let's scratch the omnipotent part out of his description because it clearly does not apply. People also have a tendency to claim that he's all-loving too, which is kind of hard to believe since he allows so much suffering to exist in the world, and does naff all about it (don't worry though-it's all for our own good really) and it's brought upon by us anyway, right? . It's simply hard for me to wrap my head around a supposedly all-loving god that allows suffering to happen on an epic scale. It doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very nature of love.

 

So we have three options here:

1)God can help, but chooses not to, and that would make him, well, for lack of a better word, evil.

2) God can't help because its not in his power to do so-so why call him god?

3) He does not exist.

 

I don't know about anyone else, I'm going with option 3.

 

Going with option 3 is free will in practice. God gave you that choice, and it most certainly is a choice.

 

But I highlighted where you say, if he CAN'T. Because someone or something does not do something does not automatically follow that he or it CAN'T. I can do lots of things, but I don't.

 

There is something in the bible that says basically, because we are less than perfect beings, we cannot possibly understand a perfect being. That makes logical sense. Plus, if God DID intervene on anyone's behalf, we would clearly cease to be living in the world we are living in. The day that there is an intervention by God, to me, would surely be the day the world as we know it has come to an end.

 

Do you believe women have the right to abort their babies? Please answer that question, because your answer will inform another question I'd like to ask you.

[firmness]

Going with option 3 is free will in practice. God gave you that choice, and it most certainly is a choice.

 

There is no god, and freewill is not what you think it is.

 

Think about what you are saying here - "You have the freewill to chose god/jesus, but if you do not you will burn in hell forever"

 

How is this freewill? This is coercion at best.

 

There have been so many hundreds of arguments and debates that absolutely and completely debunk the notion of a benevolent omnipotent god, that it shocks me that anyone who can use the internet would still believe this ancient myth - and take it as "truth".

 

What a scary thing. This is so deeply sad to me. Are we so flawed as a species that we can take a book that makes a bunch of claims, and use those claims as the proof of the claims? Think about any other phenomenon in which the claim and the proof are the same thing. This would never fly in any other case -only the case in which a child or emotionally broken person has been indoctrinated to believe does this work.

 

It would not be so bad, but the harm that these beliefs have done and continue to do are so vast, so horrific, and so egregious, that one wonders what believers really believe?

 

Why god let's children in Africa starve has nothing to do with god, belief, faith, mystery, or anything supernatural. It is about very human domination, racism, slavery, genocide, and a bunch of other horrible dark aspects of socioeconomic and political power. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

What I find most interesting is that religion is often used as the reason for such atrocities. How is it possible to ignore this in the face of such overwhelming evidence.

 

Hitler himself invoked god in his writings to justify what he did.

[Scorpio Chick]

There is no god, and freewill is not what you think it is.

 

Think about what you are saying here - "You have the freewill to chose god/jesus, but if you do not you will burn in hell forever"

How is this freewill? This is coercion at best.

 

There have been so many hundreds of arguments and debates that absolutely and completely debunk the notion of a benevolent omnipotent god, that it shocks me that anyone who can use the internet would still believe this ancient myth - and take it as "truth".

 

What a scary thing. This is so deeply sad to me. Are we so flawed as a species that we can take a book that makes a bunch of claims, and use those claims as the proof of the claims? Think about any other phenomenon in which the claim and the proof are the same thing. This would never fly in any other case -only the case in which a child or emotionally broken person has been indoctrinated to believe does this work.

 

It would not be so bad, but the harm that these beliefs have done and continue to do are so vast, so horrific, and so egregious, that one wonders what believers really believe?

 

Why god let's children in Africa starve has nothing to do with god, belief, faith, mystery, or anything supernatural. It is about very human domination, racism, slavery, genocide, and a bunch of other horrible dark aspects of socioeconomic and political power. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

What I find most interesting is that religion is often used as the reason for such atrocities. How is it possible to ignore this in the face of such overwhelming evidence.

 

Hitler himself invoked god in his writings to justify what he did.

 

Ummm, can you please find and quote wherein I said you will burn in hell if you don't believe in God??? Right out the gate your comments to me are all over the place. For starters, 'free will isn't what I think it is.' I haven't even begun to state what my thoughts on free will are. Our discussing and holding opposite views on the existence of God is PROOF in and of itself we are exercising free will. YOU happen to believe differently than I do about where that free will comes from, but you certainly do not need to resort to being intolerant of me because I believe in God. You would do your argument a service if you were less accusatory and insulting and presumptious regarding my thoughts, and putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

[Scorpio Chick]

Firmness, would it be horrific and sad to you if I believed in cute fairies? Why?

 

Is it really horrific, HORRIFIC, to you that people believe in God? Do you realize what you're saying? Do you know how many people believe in God and act on that faith for the GOOD of others?? What is horrific is that you are feigning to be horrified at people's CHOICE to believe in what they want and can believe in. What's it to you?? I mean, really? So what if they are deluded?? So what if someone could prove God doesn't exist?

 

I suggest that you have the luxury of being an atheist, but why would you try to make people not believe something that gives them some comfort? Who are you to do that?? Would you tell a small child who is praying to a God they believe in, who is praying for an ill sibling, that there is no God?? Why would you??

[todreaminblue]

I fear that you misunderstand me. I do not have any problem with people having faith that a higher being exists, until they try and impose that belief onto other people, in any and all ways that it so often manifests itself. The belief, in and of itself, is unremarkable to me. If people want to believe something on faith, that is no skin off my nose. Personally, I don’t want to have beliefs founded only systems of faith because I don’t find faith is a reliable means of finding out what is true and what is not.

 

 

we all have impositions we put on people just like i did with my post just like you are doing with yours......as you can see the opening post has been skewed about the starving children and why god isnt helping.... to there being no god....that's a pretty big imposition

 

You misunderstand my post, and its intentions. It was not written to denigrate her beliefs, nor yours or anyone else’s, but rather, to share my own perspective, which is the whole purpose of having discussion, is it not?

 

 

if you are using denigration in the sense of showing god in a derogatory light...yes you are...exactly doing... that you are saying even the idea of god doesnt have merit in a thread full of people who are trying to say he has merit.....and i refute that and say god does have merit.....more than my own life has merit .....

 

The poster you are referring to asked how the OP could question God, an all-knowing, all-powerful being for not helping starving children/people, if he, himself, was not helping them, and frankly, I found the comparison absurd. Humans are not all-knowing, all-powerful beings with the capacity to wipe out famine with the blink of an eye, unlike this alleged God. We absolutely can question the notion that god is an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being that allows suffering to happen under his nose, and does not a thing to stop it.

 

 

you are not only questioning but ridiculing and as a person who once held faith you would know that to have faith you need to stand up for it...in spite of ridicule...so i see no abdurdity whereas you do.....i see peopel standign up fro what the believe in...you find this absurd.....so I agree to disagree.....

 

For me, God is nothing more than an idea. Something cooked up by a bunch of people to explain something they could not explain at the time. For others, God is more than that, and they believe he is real. Not only that, they also believe that God holds the characteristics I mentioned above, whilst, if this is true, he displays next to none of them.

 

 

 

what or who gave you the idea that god is cooked up?????....what books do you read......

 

My point about God not existing, is that, very simply, for me, he doesn’t. I do not believe in God. He either exists or he doesn’t, and I reject all of the proposed deities. Ultimately, when discussing the issue of suffering and tie in God with that, we have a three-fold issue to uncover. I’ll repeat my first post a little:

 

 

 

it is your right to reject your right to choose what you believe in and my right to defend what i believe in just as vehemently as you

 

For God to exist and suffering to exist we have two options about God’s characteristics:

1) 1) God is powerful enough to stop suffering, but chooses not to for whatever reason. It truly does not matter the reason. This eliminates the characteristic of all-loving in one swoop, and brings forth a new, more sinister characteristic of evil.

2) 2) God is not powerful enough to stop suffering, and that is why he does not do it simply because he can’t. So that eliminates all-powerful, and could even wipe out the title of “god.” For either option, neither would be worthy of worship.

 

Now, we can easily draw a third option, and this is the one I find most likely: he does not exist. You’re entitled to not accept that, and to continue believing whatever it is you want to believe. My lack of belief does not determine anything about what you believe.

 

There’s often this big assumption, and you’ve just made it that life is purposeless without god, even hopeless without him. It couldn’t, for me, and many others that I know, be further from the truth. My life has as much meaning and purpose as I wish to imbue it with, as yours and anyone else’s. I do not derive hope from the pages of a 2,000 year old book, but that doesn’t make my life or any other atheist’s life is hopeless. I have hope for this life, and just because I see no just cause to believe that there will be a next life, does not make my life any less meaningful.

 

Also, if you and others can spread your religious message, I am perfectly free to spread my non-religious message.

 

 

you are making assumptions and quite a fair bit of unproven unknown conjecture aren't i allowed the same....i am also perfectly free to ask questions and offer assumptions based on what i know and what i feel and what i think......

 

 

and you didnt answer my question what purpose does it have for you to share your message and be derogatory towards the existence of god to give your own personal conjecture on why god isnt real..to state absurdity in other peoples posts that i dont find absurd at all and bias on your behalf due to you having an intellectual capacity that doesnt involve belief in a deity or belief in what others have said on here that you would ridicule ....and then claim you werent ridiculing when you were......i actually want to know.....i mean no disrespect i would like to understand what your purpose is ...you say you have one in life, i am happy for you...but what is your purpose in being derogatory towards god.....

[LivingWaterPlease]

what does t/j mean?

 

 

hey living water....i had a few of my first threads removed but i have only ever once been asked about my faith by cerridwen actually she asked me why i am like i am.....luv cerri.....lol....

 

i would say i have always had faith ................................................................................................................without god......i wouldnt exist and neither would anyone else...................deb

 

 

Thank you, deb, for taking the time to share your story which ties in so beautifully with this thread about God caring for starving children in Africa as I will illustrate in the paragraphs to follow!

 

It seems your grandfather was the first to tell you about God? But, you knew Him in your little heart before your grandfather told you?

 

I had a client who was raped by her teen-aged cousins repeatedly for a year at the age of five. She, too, is a strong Christian. She describes herself at that age as being similar to the way you described yourself.

 

The way your personal story (and the story of my client I just mentioned) ties in with this thread about the starving children in Africa, actually, is that folks may assume God is not tending to starving children just as they may also assume God isn't/wasn't tending to other suffering children (you, my client, others of us who may have suffered as children) when He actually is/was.

 

He has given you faith in Him, more valuable than a physically safe childhood without faith in Him would be.

 

And it seems He has given you not a small faith but a very large faith! What a gift!

 

In eternity one day we may hear the stories of some of the starving children in Africa who were also given gifts from God and also possibly came into a life of comfort here on this earth.

 

I have family members who were at one time starving children in Africa and now live in safe secure homes in my country with plenty of food. They were brought into the safe homes of my relatives (who have also established a charitable foundation that feeds and houses children who are still there in Africa) by conviction of God and in the name of God. So, God truly has not abandoned these starving children in Africa.

 

God even now continues to convict hearts and minds of many people to provide relief for starving and suffering children who live in various parts of the world and they are being helped by respondents who are people of faith.

 

I also believe that if a person doesn't associate with people who have faith in God they likely may not realize how much is actually being done all over the world for suffering and needy people. Because I find in the many churches I have belonged to or visited that I'm often hearing of individuals who are sponsoring other people or even small groups that are sent out all over the world to provide relief from suffering. If a person doesn't go to church and associate with those who are doing this they may possibly be unaware it's happening because this isn't being reported in the news.

 

But, as surely as I write this post, God is tending to suffering children all over the world, those we may be aware of and those we may not be aware of. He is a mighty God full of love and compassion who cares for the little ones He has given life to!

 

(t/j is the way I refer to thread jack)

Edited June 29, 2014 by LivingWaterPlease

[umirano]

Again, WHO is starving the kids? What do YOU do, besides posting on a forum, to help those children get fed? Honestly, do you do anything? Send money? Anything? If not, don't criticize anyone or shake your fist even at an all knowing God when YOU DO HAVE IT WITHIN YOUR CAPACITY TO DO SOMETHING. It doesn't make sense.

 

We might as well discuss YOUR morality? Is this the subject of the thread? To me it's the problem of evil.

 

I am not accountable to Scorpio Chick in any way. I could claim to have started a famine or having saved a hundred thousand children. No one here has the ability to verify independently any of my claims to my donating. Independent verification of proof is something the religious seem to avoid like the pest, so your demand fits right in. Your getting so worked up what I did personally has no bearing on the gravity of the problem of evil. All you're showing is that you have no idea what this thread is about, and you're not willing to understand it. You're returning to the Argument from Authority which is a grade A logical fallacy. You're not furthering the discussion at all.

 

Given the above limitations on the usefulness of accounts of personal involvement, here is some of what I do, to make earth a better place. I donate to several local organizations and I volunteer in my country. I oppose religious thinking and the resulting lack of morality. I oppose the resulting poisoning of the discussion (such as Scorpio Chick's posts). I try to help people by teaching them to think realistically, to focus on what is in our power to change. To separate the relevant from the irrelevant, the observable from speculation. The real from the imagination and wishful thinking. None of the developments that improved our living circumstances (medicine, technology for communication, mobility, shelter against natural forces, rule of law) have come from prayer. Everything has come from hard work (manual and intellectual). Religion has only marginally contributed in the sense that it was a first, very naive attempt at metaphysics and it may have helped starting a system of education. But it failed at explaining the world, we know that now. The moral claims are outrageous. It has caused suffering and it prevented men and women from progressing, often by means of inflicting cruel, inhuman psychological and bodily harm. We can move on from it now. We can discard it like we discarded stone age medicine, stone age civil and criminal law and like we discarded stone age astronomy.

 

I am convinced that a lot of the suffering in the world is due to religious thinking in particular and a lack of skeptical inquiry in general. Compare the levels of religiousness with health indicators, with life span, with average intake of calories, with average hourly salaries, with work hours per week, with teenage pregnancy rates and with violence against children, women, disabled or foreigners/other races. You will find that the least religious societies on this planet are surpassing every religious place in terms of life quality. I do not think that is a coincidence. Thus I think, instead of sending money to Africa and hoping, or praying , that it'll end up in the hands of a person in need, it is more effective, and thus more moral really, to fight for more skeptic inquiry and local change. Religion is a huge road block in this regard.

 

Get off your high horse Scorpio Chick. Sending money half way around the earth and washing your hands over it and calling yourself more moral than anyone non-believer doesn't cut it. You probably should look at the amount of money that is diverted away from humanitarian aid and goes directly into arms purchases. Actual influence does change things. Here I am doing something which will help humanity in the long run. I assure you I do so offline too.

 

I am sure you will dodge most of my post, especially me calling you out on diverting the discussion away from the unresolved problem of evil. Todreaminblue is the only poster who actually started addressing it so far. Can you keep up with her? Or are you going to escape to another unrelated question?

[umirano]

Nature has inherited physical processes, existing as inseparable and permanent elements, qualities and attributes that allows us to exist as natural man........why is this so......why does it matter.......and since we are basically atoms and molecules that are inherited why have we inherited similar characteristics as a whole species? What purpose do we have with the inherited characteristics and atoms and molecules.....what purpose does nature have to be here......

You're assuming inheritance a lot. I cannot comment on that as I do not know we a) what you mean exactly by it and b) that we or nature or molecules "inherited" anything in the first place.

 

Also, the nature of our purpose, if there is one to begin with, should not necessarily be related to any type of inheritance. You'd really have to define for me what you mean by it, before I can try to answer your question.

 

I don't think there is a purpose for nature to be here. It just is. The sensible questions are How ...?, not Why ...?. What reason do you have to assume a purpose? Could you imagine that this is just a human assumption that may have no justification, to always ask for a purpose?

 

why do we exist is it to influence change to our natural environment......and if this is the case how can we exhibit change to an innate world, change would not happen would it? if chaos reigned supreme the world would have died out a logn time ago

No we don't exist to change the environment. We exist and change the environment in order to improve our circumstances. And yes, change would still happen if we didn't exist, because it isn't a static, stable universe for a very long time to come, see Heat death of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

 

 

 

so the chaos theory ...not a fan of this theory as it doesn't allow for hope to exist......people need hope to survive, a world without hope well thats end of days in my mind not chaos just the end

But the world we live in is quite chaotic. Obviously it is possible to have a good life and enjoy things despite the chaos. So I don't find completely hopeless.

 

 

 

not one person did place a natural disaster but we do as you have stated influence change to the natural environment often not for the greater good.....often forcing natural disasters to build....the ozone layer, the melting caps, deforestation erosion of top soil etc.....land slides......rising sea levels

But not all disasters are anthropological. Volcano eruptions, changes in long-term rain patterns causing famine or asteroids would happen even if there was no human population large enough to influence the eco system.

 

we are influencing a perfect design.....

Why assume a design?

 

just sprung up because the universe was bored and decided to form random things and place them in a perfect design

I don't think the universe decides anything. Why do you?

 

...clever molecules.....amazing to think about ...a molecule that creates basically a perfect design but, cant exist to be on its own and is useless actually if it were to be a single entity, only makes sense if you add an opposing factor a contributing equation and or theory...and a resolution then for its existence.......

The answer is probably much simpler and more elegant than that: We find "perfect" molecules because they're the only ones of the uncounted numbers of molecules that made it, that sustained our particular circumstances. So it isn't a surprise that we find things to be so well adapted. It's not design, it's not random either. It's the subset of molecules that was right for the circumstances and that found fitting partner structures. And together they built up life as we know it today. I find the simplicity of this much more convincing than the unfounded insertion of an intelligent entity who "designed" the world. Because from an engineering, or designing POV the world is not so perfect. There would be no need for diseases or catastrophes, right?

 

 

 

 

no i truly believe everybody has a right to share with respect given openly, to thoughts and beliefs held by others, and to discuss topics it is growth and to ask questions....i love asking questions and getting answers.....

Agreen

 

i dont like infinite circles......they are tiring and to me bring us back to the same impasse where we started at

I agree. But why do they end up where they started? I worry that many times people aren't clear about the definitions and even change them when it's convenient. I think the lack of progress has more to do with human laziness and a disregard for thoroughness than with the impossibility of ever agreeing on a chain of thoughts or observations leading to a conclusion.

 

that is why i chose to ask questions with you , i respect you, also then, i can understand you as a person and what you believe in and share with you my own thoughts and ask even more random childish questions......

Thank you, same here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

i am saying that if evil didnt exist we wouldnt know good

Yes actually we would. It's just the rest, what there would be. We probably wouldn't call it anything because there's no need to, but we'd experience it nonetheless.

 

and that if good didnt exist, we wouldnt know evil, we would not distinguish anything,

Same thing as above. Not having a contrast doesn't mean we can't know something.

 

or everything as having either inherent characteristics , we would not aspire to be good or aspire to be evil if those words were not in direct opposition of each other..that god is omnipresent because he exists in all places at all times allowing both evil adn good to exist in tandem and harmony of the agency to choose, and mercifully and eternally for omni's sake he gave us agency to decide ourselves

Hm... that looks like circular argumentation to me : If there was no, say, evil, then we wouldn't need to aspire to be good, we would be good all the time, it would not be possible to be evil in the first place, because you have an all good universe. That's why I think this argumentation falls short to explain the necessity of evil.

 

what do you aspire to umi? what is your most cherished aspiration umi is it to try and prove god doesnt exist......to sway people of faith or do you really want to believe......

That's a deep question too And it made me think for a long time. I can see why you'd ask it. I agree, that isn't much of a life aspiration maybe, to only "preach" against religion. I can't help the fact though that it's a very important subject right now for me.

 

I guess one of my life aspirations is to spread the concept of arguing in a better way. Namely I hope to convince people to be looking at reality and clearly separating between beliefs without observation or logical arguments to back them up and observable facts that we can use to change our circumstances to achieve a better life for everyone.

 

This forum has helped me too in that sense, because I used to believe not very logical things about relationships and I have learned about my misconceptions by reading what others had to say. I find that a very moving experience. I think it's important to challenge people's beliefs, if I my beliefs hadn't been challenged by posters here and elsewhere, by friends IRL and some teachers, then I'd be worse off and less happy. I'd blame myself or others without justification for things that are either my fault or can't be changed anyway.

 

 

Take care Deb