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Why does god neglect the starving kids in Africa?

TylerDurdenn

By TylerDurdenn
in Spirituality & Religious Beliefs

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veggirl Established Member

veggirl

Posted
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children are naturally more intelligent than adults.......its natural intelligence.......ever talked to a child and been blown away with logical succinctness...ask a child to solve the worlds problems pick any problem you will see what i mean......we make life complex when it doesnt need to be......

 

 

children well....be as children we were told.......god got it right......as always and forever......deb

 

The "we" in your post really reminds me of evangelicals who do quite a dance to explain things away. Logically, your god is a very vengeful, mean...thing. I bet the super wise children would agree.

 

To those people whom I've been debating with:

 

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you protesting and criticizing the way the world is (whoever created it), or are you just trying to make sense out of the world and understand it better? I know this sounds like a stupid question but how you answer it completely alters the discussion.

 

I'm trying to understand how people can accept a god who can, but doesn't, stop horrible things from happening. a god who made us susceptible to temptation, therefore damning us to live in a world like we do?

 

I guess needless suffering is just like a big spanking, god-style. We are apparently all bad, so some of us get spanked god-style to teach everyone a lesson. I guess it's easy to say "god works in mysterious ways" and all that rhetoric when we aren't the ones living literally day after day in horrific conditions. "don't worry, god has a plan!"

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TylerDurdenn Established Member

TylerDurdenn

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God himself came down from his eternal throne and died as a common criminal so that you and I would have an option out of eternal damnation. Anything that happens in these temporary years on earth is like chump change in comparison.

 

Surely a man of his power could cure world hunger in an instance, why is this such a task for him? Does he enjoy watching people suffer? The estimated population of the world 2000 years ago was 231 million, today it is 7.2 billion, surely he should realise that we really need him now?

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taiko Established Member

taiko

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Posted
Surely a man of his power could cure world hunger in an instance, why is this such a task for him? Does he enjoy watching people suffer? The estimated population of the world 2000 years ago was 231 million, today it is 7.2 billion, surely he should realise that we really need him now?

 

If God always stepped in why would man do anything? Perhaps he wishes us to be beings of free will not livestock.

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TigerLilly78 Established Member

TigerLilly78

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Please tell me?

 

 

To me the idea of one all powerful all knowing loving god is not logical I believe he was invented like many other icons to help people deal with the randomness of every day life good and bad.

 

Now im not putting anyone down for believing in it that's just my personal view I think we should all have these qualities inside us with out the need to "fear god" if we do not act a cirtin way...

 

There for to answer your question there are starving children in Africa because of human choices and failures but the good news is the prob can also be helped by the kindness of the human heart and the parents taking responsibility to make better choices..

pureinheart Established Member

pureinheart

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Oh, and BTW TD, thanks for keeping up with your thread (I know that's not easy) and responding because this is a very interesting subject. Please know that I am not making light of this topic, what I mean to say is that I enjoy seeing people engaged towards matters that matter:)

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LivingWaterPlease Established Member

LivingWaterPlease

Posted
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Surely a man of his power could cure world hunger in an instance, why is this such a task for him? Does he enjoy watching people suffer? The estimated population of the world 2000 years ago was 231 million, today it is 7.2 billion, surely he should realise that we really need him now?

 

Tyler, any man who has as much power as God has would cure world hunger in an instant. I agree with you.

 

That is because such a man isn't as wise as God is.

 

Because He is wiser than you, me and Steven Hawking (who is, btw, an intellectual dwarf compared to God) combined He is not following a plan you, I and Steven Hawking might think best.

 

You didn't answer my question. I asked you if you knew any of the starving Christian children in Africa.

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amaysngrace Established Member

amaysngrace

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Please tell me?

 

Not sure what you mean by that. Kids suffer all over the world and God has nothing to do with it.

 

Why does God let kids get cancer? Beaten? Raped? Kidnapped?

 

Same answer...

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Scorpio Chick Established Member

Scorpio Chick

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If you believe in what the bible says, He gave us free will. Free will is free will. So in effect, he 'lets' everything happen.

 

He also lets babies be born prematurely, and some die. But he lets people go to school and learn to take care of them and nurse them to health. He also lets people realize that parents have to work and can't be there to provide physical, human touch to those struggling babies, and he lets some people volunteer to go in and hold and rock those babies.

 

He also lets some people become mothers and he lets those mothers murder their own children. He lets some fathers forget that their small children are in the car with them, and he lets those children die.

 

He doesn't 'let' so much as, He has stepped back from. He no longer steps in on ANYONE'S behalf. He doesn't stop a murder in progress, or a plane from crashing, he doesn't make your number come up in the lottery and he doesn't, as a friend of mine thought, make all the stoplights green so he could get to work on time. He doesn't intersect with our world in that kind of capacity.

 

The thing that sucks, if you read the bible and believe it, is that God supposedly created us for Himself. For His own pleasure, and we screwed up and disobeyed. I don't particularly like that we are created beings, not created for ourselves and for our own plans, etc... I just don't like it. I really would rather not follow 'the rules' and I really don't and I keep 'meaning' to. It sucks, and I don't like it.

 

I think I understand the spirit of your post. The truth is, we humans have a lot more 'control' or effect on other humans, and it is getting worse and worse how many of us turn a blind eye to the behavior of other people, behavior that impacts and hurts other people. So where does it start and end? If I know a friend got pregnant by her married man, do I just stand by and not say anything to her husband? Do I LET him be horribly deceived?? We LET things happen all the time, and we could do something about it, but most of us don't.

Edited by Scorpio Chick
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LivingWaterPlease Established Member

LivingWaterPlease

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Religion requires little intelligence. My daughter believes in father christmas as did i at her age. A little fantasy is healthy.

 

 

Haydn, you state a beautiful truth! Religion requires little intelligence! In God's great love He has arranged salvation and restoration for all, even the unintelligent!

 

Because He is a God of love He excludes no one!

 

It requires only faith in Jesus Christ! And the Bible teaches that even that (faith) is a gift from Him, not something we conjure up! So, it is very simple to be saved!

 

That said, I've observed there are many brilliant Christians!

 

You might counter with, "And there are many brilliant atheists!" And you would be right! :)

 

Christianity is for all! Brilliant and simple, both. Because of God's great love, mercy, compassion and power!

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pureinheart Established Member

pureinheart

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Started by Bob Geldolf in the UK.

 

Maybe they don`t have the 2nd amendment. Not sure Jesus did either.

 

I was referring to USA for Africa. Sounds like a good argument for the 2nd Amendment. Jesus's ministry wasn't about overturning the oppressive Roman Empire, it was not His purpose. His main purpose was to be a perfect sacrifice for sin.

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pureinheart Established Member

pureinheart

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Posted
Haydn, you state a beautiful truth! Religion requires little intelligence! In God's great love He has arranged salvation and restoration for all, even the unintelligent!

 

Because He is a God of love He excludes no one!

 

It requires only faith in Jesus Christ! And the Bible teaches that even that (faith) is a gift from Him, not something we conjure up! So, it is very simple to be saved!

 

That said, I've observed there are many brilliant Christians!

 

You might counter with, "And there are many brilliant atheists!" And you would be right! :)

 

Christianity is for all! Brilliant and simple, both. Because of God's great love, mercy, compassion and power!

 

You know, this is such a humble and just plain really good post. In thinking about what you said, in essence we replace our limited intelligence for His infinite intelligence. Without Him I. am. nothing.

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M30USA Established Member

M30USA

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Posted (edited)
Surely a man of his power could cure world hunger in an instance, why is this such a task for him? Does he enjoy watching people suffer? The estimated population of the world 2000 years ago was 231 million, today it is 7.2 billion, surely he should realise that we really need him now?

 

When God steps in to eliminates all evil, he will correct it ALL. Do you understand the implications of this? If you, yourself, do ANY evil things at ANY time, you will be eliminated too. Unless your transgressions of his law have been covered in the blood of Jesus, you will be wiped out, my friend. Are you ready for this?

 

Read the parable of the weeds in Matthew. Lots of weeds began to grow in a farm and choked some of the good crops. The servants (you and I) asked the farmer (God) why there are weeds (evil) if he planted only good seed. The farmer said he did plant good seed but an enemy came at night and sowed weeds. The servants asked the farmer if they should pick out the weeds (just like you are asking God to get rid of evil) but the farmer said no--that he didnt want to rush uprooting any good crops while trying to pull weeds. He said they would wait until the harvest (judgement), at which point ALL crops would get pulled. The good crops will go into the barn (heaven) while the weeds will be cast into the fire (hell).

 

I hope this parable helped you. It's one of many that Jesus used.

Edited by M30USA
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Scorpio Chick Established Member

Scorpio Chick

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Erm starving kids need.... Food? He created the world so why can't he create food for these people? He's starting to sound pretty cruel if he is using people to test others.

 

Religion showing it's true colours.

:(

 

God despises religion. It is strange that people HAVE answered your question AND more importantly, they've actually accepted the premise of your argument. It is an argument, too, you were not, be fair, genuinely asking to be enlightened on your question, you clearly have a strong opinion on it. Which is fine, but I'm noticing a pattern of intolerance towards what people are replying to you and I don't see how that serves any purpose other than to throw up a mental barricade to really hearing what people are saying.

 

One person can indeed make a huge impact. For good or bad. Martin Luther King, Jr was one, for starters. What about people that were German that brought tremendous risk to themselves to house Jewish people? Did not what they did count for something huge? What was it IN them that prompted them to stand up and take action to change something that was wrong and hurting people?

 

You and people that are supporting your viewpoint that God is being cruel and letting things happen, does that absolve YOU or ME from stepping in to stop something from happening because you don't see with your human vision that God might be doing something? And for all you know, he might be actually doing something that with our limited senses we cannot detect. But who is to define suffering? Aren't there degrees and isn't it subjective? For instance, do you watch porn? Let's say you watch hetero porn. How do you, YOU know, KNOW, that the girl in the video is not being raped, or intimidated in some other way, maybe being paid because she's a runaway? But you're contributing to that by consuming the porn. You are LETTING that crime go on (only if you partake of porn). It is a fact that a lot of 'performers' in porn, are young girls that are being forced. There is all kinds of suffering, and you can't tell me that in some way, at some time, you're not contributing to someone's suffering. You're letting it happen.

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pie2 Established Member

pie2

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First off, TD, I just want to say that I am glad you're searching for answers. I admire and respect people that are passionate about what they believe in, and don't ride the fence with issues as important as God.

 

OP, in an ideal world, where would you see this thread going? Do you see it meandering down a path of logical arguments until eventually at least one religious poster has an "Ah-ha!" moment, and renounces any faith in God? Because surely a loving Creator wouldn't allow suffering, so there must be no creator at all, right?

 

If that is ultimately your goal with posting this thread, why is that? What is the point, in relation to the topic at hand?

 

Because the religious believers are offering more of their time, money and services to those in need than non-believers (excluding major governmental interventions, which is a different topic). So, you may convert some thinkers to the "logical side", but, sadly enough, the only result will be less help for the unfortunate children in Africa. The atheist members of our society just don't put the same effort into helping their neighbors as the religious do.

 

Article: Religious Americans Give More

 

So, if you gain any atheist converts by your debates, you may have "won a battle", but you certainly won't win the war (on poverty, or any other tragedy on Earth). The children in Africa will go on starving. In fact, the problem will most likely escalate.

 

And taking the discussion a little further, what are the alternative answers for starving children in Africa, OP? You are an atheist, I assume? So why are there children that suffer, and why do you care? Are you not just an animal in the animal kingdom, created by a random chain of events? Out of these random chemicals that make up our beings, where did that care for your brother come from? Why might you have compassion for someone you'll never know? How do you explain it all?

 

Anyway, TD, thank you for starting this discussion :).

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Scorpio Chick Established Member

Scorpio Chick

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God will bless them with food if they put faith in him? Or still no?

 

Well, since we're all being completely honest, you have the luxury of having the free time to post on a blog. And you have the luxury of freely complaining about a spiritual being, without fear of your government arresting you for it. I presume you have the luxury of having a full belly right now and I presume you have a roof over your head.

 

So, honestly, what stops you, even though YOU are not all-powerful and all-knowing and you're not God, what stops YOU, right now, while you're actually upset about these starving children and the cruel being that created them from not putting food in their mouths, closing your laptop or whatever, what is stopping YOU from hopping on a plane and going to Africa, getting your hands dirty, and doing whatever YOU can to put food in starving children's mouth right now? Seriously? It's an extremely fair question and I would really like to see you answer it, honestly. As TD would say: please tell me.

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Scorpio Chick Established Member

Scorpio Chick

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Why not just punish them then? Why the need to use innocent people as pawns? God can help but won't or he can't help? Would you blame those kids for turning their back on god?

 

Who said those starving children turned their backs on God? No one so far from what I read has. For all any of us knows, God might be intervening, maybe he has input something in those children's brains, or whatever, and they are not actually suffering, but God lets us see a vision of them suffering. Can you scientifically prove that isn't happening? You cannot nor can I. After all, WE are not all-knowing. Maybe the only ones being tested are you and me. The ones who engaged this conversation.

 

One thing I know, a lot of people are getting worked up at their computers DISCUSSING something, rather than taking one bit of meaningful action to put food in those children's mouths. That's a fact no one on here right now, can deny.

pie2 Established Member

pie2

Posted
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I think what Tyler wants is to sit God down in a courtroom and be his judge and jury. No matter how many satisfactory answers he gets, it will never be enough. God must completely align with each of his opinions 100% of the time or he won't believe in God...er, wait...that would just be himself. No, God...uh, what?

 

Never say never. Even if no one admits it here, I'm sure we all take some of the points raised in these discussions and give them a little thought. Hopefully even TD.

umirano Established Member

umirano

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Your critique of God implies that you know a better way and are higher than him. Please tell us what God should be doing in this matter.

 

Isn't that obvious? At least for an omniscient being? Don't starve kids to prove a petty point.

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umirano Established Member

umirano

Posted
Posted
To those people whom I've been debating with:

 

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you protesting and criticizing the way the world is (whoever created it), or are you just trying to make sense out of the world and understand it better? I know this sounds like a stupid question but how you answer it completely alters the discussion.

 

I'm trying to understand how believers usually respond to the problem of evil

 

Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The detailed version goes like this:

 

  1. God exists.
  2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
  3. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
  4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
  5. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
  8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

 

To invalidate the conclusion (a omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being cannot exist) you'd either have to show that

  • the premises are wrong
  • or that evil doesn't exist.

 

I'm really curious how the average believer reconciles this obvious contradiction. I haven't seen anyone argue that there's no evil in the world. Most seem to take issue with the premises in some way or another. Believers must have a different understanding of the terms

 

  1. omnipotent
  2. omniscient
  3. omnibenevolent

 

than skeptics.

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bostonterrier Established Member

bostonterrier

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There are starving people all over the world, not just in Africa, and why does it matter if it's a starving kid or a starving adult?:rolleyes:

Madman81 Established Member

Madman81

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It sounds like you are looking for a reason to blame it on God. There are starving people so it must mean God doesn't care.

Why doesn't God just take care of all suffering?

 

I think what Tyler wants is to sit God down in a courtroom and be his judge and jury. No matter how many satisfactory answers he gets, it will never be enough. God must completely align with each of his opinions 100% of the time or he won't believe in God...er, wait...that would just be himself. No, God...uh, what?

I'm going to venture out on a limb and suggest that Tyler isn't trying to blame God or hold God accountable for his actions or lack thereof. Rather, he's pointing out the logical fallacies inherent in arguments supporting the existence of God.

 

I've said it before on this board, but I'll say it again. You can't win an argument with people who don't share your beliefs, or convince them to agree with your beliefs, by throwing out quotations from your beliefs. Doing so is the same as me trying to convince you that the earth is round "because somebody else said it in a book, and I believe them." Now, if I show you photos and videos taken from space, or take you in a spacecraft into orbit, that's another matter -- at least I'm showing you some EVIDENCE to support my "orthodoxy". Not just more of the orthodoxy.

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TheFinalWord Established Member

TheFinalWord

Posted
Posted

Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

 

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

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M30USA Established Member

M30USA

Posted
Posted (edited)
Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

 

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

 

I think TheFinalWord's username is appropriate here.

 

Also I would like to add that the only disciple concerned with acquiring wealth was Judas.

Edited by M30USA
todreaminblue Established Member

todreaminblue

Posted
Posted
The "we" in your post really reminds me of evangelicals who do quite a dance to explain things away. Logically, your god is a very vengeful, mean...thing. I bet the super wise children would agree.

 

 

 

I'm trying to understand how people can accept a god who can, but doesn't, stop horrible things from happening. a god who made us susceptible to temptation, therefore damning us to live in a world like we do?

 

I guess needless suffering is just like a big spanking, god-style. We are apparently all bad, so some of us get spanked god-style to teach everyone a lesson. I guess it's easy to say "god works in mysterious ways" and all that rhetoric when we aren't the ones living literally day after day in horrific conditions. "don't worry, god has a plan!"

 

i was the super intelligent child that was raped veg girl....top ten per cent iq.....and i know a man raped me it wasn't god just a man...does that make sense from child logic.......a super mean sick man and his wife who knew, who stood in the kitchen and did nothing........god had nothing to do with that.......that the guy didn't kill me and bury me under the floor.....that was probably gods hands......that i went on to have five babies ....gods hands..

 

everything that is good and true in my life how lucky i am ho wblessed i feel at times when i have nowhere to turn and my back is up against the walls...then comes the loving hands of god to guide me through.....and i mean that literally.....back against the wall facing things i shouldnt have to face....sometimes i get up and run away sometimes i hobble away when its over.......

 

 

and what i do know from seeing what i have and had done to me....there's a god.....and then there's satan....and the eyes of people who have hurt me i have seen through a child's eyes, drunkards drug addicts, callous individuals who didnt even seem to there at all to tell the truth..covered a guy on the ground to stop him getting his head kicked in and all i got was a "you look like a s lut".....when he got up.god is not responsible for the cruelty, the disregard, the disrespect of human life we were given, of men and women who dotn believe and go around hurting others .....thats child logic...we are responsible fro what we do in this life .....thats our agency...that includes doing bad things to others....and not giving a crap who you leave broken and bleeding on the ground...child logic because i have been broken and bleeding...i know because i have been there........... guys who have beaten me stupid.........there was no love of god in those eyes....they were cold veg girl....and it had nothing to do with god....you can blame god for all the horrible things that happen to others.....i have had things happen to me personally and i don't blame god.......is that a sogn adn dance......if it is ....i am dancing then veg girl and i say to you i respect you veg girl.......i think you should respect me too .....i dont know what you have been through and i hope you find peace....allow me to have peace and simply believe veg girl...i deserve that.....god has put it in my heart i do deserve respect just as much as you do.....i have the personal right to share why i have hope as you have the personal right to share what you dont have hope for....peace out..inner child and all...deb

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umirano Established Member

umirano

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Posted (edited)

The Kingdom of God is neither proven nor disproved through argument but rather it is proven to exist through revelation to those who choose to believe.

 

I don't know what the kingdom of god is. I thought we were discussing god. Anyway, so far I see no response to the problem of evil as per my post up-thread.

 

There are essentially four possibilities:

 

  1. No god exists
  2. God isn't omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent
  3. There's no evil
  4. Omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent mean something else to the believers

 

Since #1 is vehemently rejected by believers, it's got to be one of #2-#4. Any takers?

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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