cannot-decide Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 I have been married to my wife for 14 years and we have two wonderful children ages 3 and 7. We have always had our challenges, but things just seem to be getting worse, to a point where I find myself working extra just to avoid seeing her. I manage a small business and, if I can get out in time to put the kids to bed, I rush home. If I can't get out until after they are asleep, I stay until I know my wife is already asleep. My wife is from another country and I do believe that some of our differences are cultural. But the bottom line is that I find her to be too negative. I am very playful and like to joke around a lot. She ridicules me and tells me that I need to grow up. The best way to describe her is "a glass half empty" kind of person. She is a SAHM and has never worked in this country. Our children go to private school, we live in a nice house and drive nice cars, but she insists that I am "financially unstable" because I told her that we cannot afford for her to take the children to her home country for a month this summer as she usually does. Even when we were first together, there were signs of trouble, but I felt like I needed to "follow through" since she had left her home country to be with me. I was convinced that things would get better. I was foolish. They never did. Even my brother once asked me "Does she always talk to you like you like that? Like you are a child?" She finally agreed to marriage counseling and it has been difficult. She has done about 80% of the talking so far. Last week the counselor asked me about her positive qualities and I responded that she was "pretty, smart, hard-working, fun to share activities with, and loved her family a lot." When the counselor asked her, she would say a positive, but qualify it with a negative like: "He is smart, but needs to be more organized." The counselor interrupted stating that she wanted only the positives. She countered with "He is good looking, but could really lose some weight." After a second redirect from the counselor, she finally stated that I am "handsome, smart, her husband and the father of her children". That just felt superficial to me. In a one-on-one session with the counselor, she suggested that my wife very much needed individual counseling if there was any hope at saving our marriage. She told my wife the same the next day, but she thinks that is ridiculous and accuses us of ganging up on her. Another relevant issue is that I believe I have been having an emotional affair with another woman. This woman was a casual acquaintance 16-18 years ago (though we did not see or speak to each other for many many years as I was living on the "other coast".) We go out to eat and discuss our lives a couple times a week, and even went to a baseball game with both our children a few months ago. We hug goodbye, but that is it. I have not and will not kiss her, but I do think about her often. I have always enjoyed her company and she is very thoughtful and I feel free to be my true self around her. My greatest fear is that, because she is a SAHM, she would get custody and has already told me that if I leave her, she will move back to her home country with the children. I spoke to a custody attorney and he said that because she has no work skills applicable in this country, there is a good chance that a judge would allow her to leave with our children (they have dual citizenship.) That scares the crap out of me. I am lost and miserable most of the time, but I do not want to risk losing my children. Thoughts?
tojaz Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 Hard to say if you have a chance just from what you wrote. I will say that continuing with the EA (Emotional Affair) is not going to help your chances with your wife, if that is what you want. Daydreaming about all the possibilities with this other woman will always cast a shadow over how you see your marriage. How does your wife see things? Is she content where shes at? Does she want the marriage to work out? TOJAZ 2
Yasuandio Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 1. Your wife senses she's being avoided, that is obvious. 2. You are pouring your emotional attentions into an EA - not where they should be directed, towards your wife. It is a dead certainty she feels something is missing, whether she says so or not. 3. Your wife should have been in the Baseball outing, not the EA and her child. It is playing with fire to have your own child along to observe. Outrageous. 4. Get a better savings plan, and don't give your wife a line of bull about not being able to afford a visit to the family this year. You drive a nice car? Trade down then. Who do you think you are kidding? 5. You wanna real monkey wrench to savotage you're family? Just say "NO" to family visits, "Mr. Boss of Money." You are sealing your fate, and stamping it with an EA. I bet you spent some on her, didn't you? 6. You will lose your kids if you do not apply yourself to your wife, as you promised - when you became her husband. No dang wonder she see the glass half full (if she really knew, the glass is really empty according to this post). 7. Your MC is a scam. Recommendation for her to have IC? What is her problem? Glass half full? Something missing in the marriage she can't quite put her finger on? Maybe it's her imagination? Oh, dear - she must need IC, right? Get her into a therapist stat. Now, have you admitted your withdrawal from the marrage and your EA in the MC sessions? Yeah, man. Keep us posted. Yas Find a way to take your family on that trip.
Author cannot-decide Posted June 18, 2014 Author Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) Wow. I guess you weren't pulling any punches. In the interest of explaining things further, I will respond to your points below one by one. 1. Your wife senses she's being avoided, that is obvious. Yes. I think you are absolutely correct on this one. I have been avoiding her the past few months, and my only excuse is that most of the time that we are together, she makes me feel bad about myself. I have explained to her how her comments make me feel, and she tells me that she doesn't mean them that way and it is not her problem that I am so "delicate". Basically, when I tell her that her words hurt, she responds that I am not a real man. 2. You are pouring your emotional attentions into an EA - not where they should be directed, towards your wife. It is a dead certainty she feels something is missing, whether she says so or not. She is open that she feels I am distant. I am open with her that I feel that way as well. But this was happening long before I began spending time with the EA. The EA is an old friend and it started out as just friends, but then feelings came up. We would grab a bite twice per week after work until about a month ago. 3. Your wife should have been in the Baseball outing, not the EA and her child. It is playing with fire to have your own child along to observe. Outrageous. EA works with me. There were three employees going originally and I invited my wife, but she hates sporting events and crowds. So I asked my friend (which is all she was at that time) if she would like the other tickets. The third co-worker was a no-show, so it ended up being only us. I have tried for years to take my wife to games, but she thinks my pleasure in watching games is a sign of immaturity. 4. Get a better savings plan, and don't give your wife a line of bull about not being able to afford a visit to the family this year. You drive a nice car? Trade down then. Who do you think you are kidding? Actually, she drives the nice car, a 2012 Lexus. I am driving a 2007 Honda. And as far as going home, she has been back to her home country at least once a year since coming to the US (19 trips over 14 years), usually for 4-7 weeks at a time. The cost of this (including the kids) is about $6-8k, which is not insignificant. CI cannot get that time off, so she would be going alone. My other concern, besides money, is that she has threatened to take the kids to her home country. I am honestly afraid that she would not return. 5. You wanna real monkey wrench to savotage you're family? Just say "NO" to family visits, "Mr. Boss of Money." You are sealing your fate, and stamping it with an EA. I bet you spent some on her, didn't you? I actually spent next to nothing on the EA -- we always went dutch. As far as being "Mr. Boss of Money", she has free reign and spends at least $5k per clothes, shoes, purses, etc. I probably spend less that $1k per year on clothes. When we lived on the other coast, we spent my annual vacation time in her country and if my family wanted to see us, they had to come to us. She drives the nice car -- at her insistence. I stopped contact outside of work with the EA when my wife agreed to go to counseling. 6. You will lose your kids if you do not apply yourself to your wife, as you promised - when you became her husband. No dang wonder she see the glass half full (if she really knew, the glass is really empty according to this post). I cannot really disagree with this. My question is whether I should be miserable if my wife continues to treat me poorly. I have a feeling that a woman who was treated this way would get a different response. I recently agreed to switch days with another manager, to which she responded "Wow. How lucky for his family that he actually LOVES them!" That is just mean and causes me to resent her more. She recently informed me that it is my fault that she complains so much because I just need to listen and do as she says. She also told me that when she is angry, I should comfort her as she tells me how terrible I am. I used to do this, I just don't think I have it in me anymore. 7. Your MC is a scam. Recommendation for her to have IC? What is her problem? Glass half full? Something missing in the marriage she can't quite put her finger on? Maybe it's her imagination? Oh, dear - she must need IC, right? Get her into a therapist stat. Now, have you admitted your withdrawal from the marrage and your EA in the MC sessions? She chose the marriage counselor as she is from her home country. The MC suggested IC when my wife said that it was not her fault when she spoke harshly to both me and the kids (she makes at least one of them cry every couple of days). She also argues that she doesn't mean it and can't control her words when she is angry, and that I should learn to just ignore it. And the MC made the suggestion during my one-on-one and then to my wife directly. My wife then relayed to me how angry it made her. And no, I have not admitted to the EA, as I know that would really cause too much pain. But like I said above, I cut that off when we began seeing the MC. Yeah, man. Keep us posted. Yas Find a way to take your family on that trip. Like I said above, I can't get that much time off work. Not many people can take more than a month of vacation every summer. Edited June 18, 2014 by cannot-decide
Mr. Lucky Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 My greatest fear is that, because she is a SAHM, she would get custody and has already told me that if I leave her, she will move back to her home country with the children. I spoke to a custody attorney and he said that because she has no work skills applicable in this country, there is a good chance that a judge would allow her to leave with our children (they have dual citizenship.) That scares the crap out of me. I am lost and miserable most of the time, but I do not want to risk losing my children. I'd consult with a new attorney, specifically one that specializes in multi-national divorces. You'd want joint physical custody which would then require judicial approval for a move. BTW, if you're concerned about a divorce, the EA path you're on is one of many wrong moves... Mr. Lucky 1
Yasuandio Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 If my H was dissing me by purposing staying late at work, and I knew something was up, (which it is - your EA), and I couldn't put finger on it, I'd be very frustrated. I would behind to notice a pattern of the kids getting the affection at "tuck-in" time - yet an absence for absence affections towards me (cause they are being withdrawn, and/or going elsewhere - no matter you careful analysis). Then suddenly, you pull the family trip - the place the woman can get dome real affection - I'd feel really isolated - and perplexed, perhaps even punished. It wouldn't make sense to me - since you been working those extra hours. All this mind - it can become a gaslighting situation for a woman. I've been in a similiar situation - and I lashed out - from an inability to make sense out the situation. There seemed to be a missing piece. Maybe your wife is seating desperately for the missing piece in MC, and you are not forthcoming about the EA - therefore, it appears to be "her problem." That would drive me crazy. And I have been driven crazy only to find the truth after the fact, that my instincts were correct. You are making a fool out of your wife by engaging in MC sessions without fill disclosure - I hope you know that. I have a feeling she is not the type that is as forgiving as I was during the marriage. If she finds out about this EA - you better watch it dude. I wouldn't blame her in the least for whatever choice she wants to make. Work on making your wife happy. Get a bank loan and use this trip to repair your marriage so you can keep your family. The grass will not be greener than your beautiful family your wife made for you. Be good to her, and she'll be good to you. Big deal about any bad words - that's nothing, forget it, grow up. Words are words. People get pist and say things they don't mean. What do you expect? Some people commit crimes of passion due to conduct like yours. One more point I will make about the EA business, be prepared not to be believed. The EA is the "Nouveau Affair," some say it is more damaging than a PA. Personally, I think EA is just a fancy term for a post-modern PA, and I don't believe you. And if it is indeed at the emotional level, and I'm wrong, it will be physical soon enough. Hope this helps. Yas
tojaz Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Easy Yas. Lets not skip ahead and write the rest of the story for him! The way I read it, the problems with his wife predate the trip, his working late to avoid her and the EA. Symptoms, not causes. like most stories on LS, there's plenty of mistakes made on both sides. C-D came here looking for help and we have to assume that what he is telling us is on the level. TOJAZ
Eivuwan Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Hey, can you tell us where your wife is from. The critical remarks are cultural I am afraid. Some culture show love primarily through acts of service or by providing for the family. It is very hard for people from these cultures to show emotional support. They often think they are being helpful by criticizing you and that's "tough love." It's a mentality that is very hard to get rid of and my own parents have only mellowed out after a decade of being in the US and me arguing with them about these days all day long. It's exhausting. They are less critical today, but they will never be like a nice supportive person. Perhaps go to marriage counseling again with a therapist who understands her culture better so that she wouldn't feel the need to be on the defensive. 1
Yasuandio Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Easy Yas. Lets not skip ahead and write the rest of the story for him! The way I read it, the problems with his wife predate the trip, his working late to avoid her and the EA. Symptoms, not causes. like most stories on LS, there's plenty of mistakes made on both sides. C-D came here looking for help and we have to assume that what he is telling us is on the level. TOJAZ Thank you for reeling me in, Tojaz. It appears I'm on a manic streak. I'll back off of LS. My apologies, "Mr. Can't Decide," my bipolar illness sometimes gets out of wack. I didn't mean any harm. I was trying to help you save your marriage and keep kids in US by making it look REALLY urgent. But I got carried away and my perception is off. Again, I am very sorry. Yas
Eivuwan Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Oops, I missed the part in which your counselor is from her country. Then in a sense, her issues are not just cultural. I wonder what will happen if you tell your wife that you're the man of the family and she's the woman and she needs to listen to you. Lol, just wondering. But maybe what you need to do is find out about how people from her culture deal with these kinds of behaviors. It seems that having the heart to heart talk doesn't work with her.
RonaldS Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Yas, sometimes you just need to pump the brakes a little, you know? You're just in attack mode right now. Having been in what appears to be a very similar situation as the OP, I can say from experience that he's playing a zero sum game. It's not going to matter what he does for her, how much he gives, how much effort and focus he puts in. Won't make a bit of difference. She'll probably never be satisfied. Yas, if youre an investor, do you keep pouring money into a stock that is tanking and has been tanking for a while? Like your investments are going to single-handedly reverse the trajectory of the stock, regardless of the fact that the reason the stock is tanking is because the company is being run by morons? Come on. My XW was exactly like that. I was never going to do anything right, never going to be able to make her happy. Guess what? She's gone now and I could not be happier. I don't miss her presence one iota.
Eivuwan Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Yas, sometimes you just need to pump the brakes a little, you know? You're just in attack mode right now. Having been in what appears to be a very similar situation as the OP, I can say from experience that he's playing a zero sum game. It's not going to matter what he does for her, how much he gives, how much effort and focus he puts in. Won't make a bit of difference. She'll probably never be satisfied. Yas, if youre an investor, do you keep pouring money into a stock that is tanking and has been tanking for a while? Like your investments are going to single-handedly reverse the trajectory of the stock, regardless of the fact that the reason the stock is tanking is because the company is being run by morons? Come on. My XW was exactly like that. I was never going to do anything right, never going to be able to make her happy. Guess what? She's gone now and I could not be happier. I don't miss her presence one iota. The problem is that he has young kids with her and she'll take them back to her home country if they divorce.
oldshirt Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I'd consult with a new attorney, specifically one that specializes in multi-national divorces. You'd want joint physical custody which would then require judicial approval for a move. BTW, if you're concerned about a divorce, the EA path you're on is one of many wrong moves... Mr. Lucky This ^^^^^^^^ Get an attorney that has the background and skills and resources to deal with international custody issues and nip this in the bud and get this option off the table before she even comes up with the idea. You haven't mentioned what cultures and what countries you are from but if you are a US citizen residing in the US then the chances are there shouldn't be any reason you couldn't be awarded joint custody unless it is shown that you are somehow and unfit parent (which she will surely try to do, up to and including accusations of child abuse and molestation so start circling your wagons and building your case now without her knowledge) And since it is already known that she is from another country and that the children have duel citizenship, the courts should be somewhat prepared to address this issue right from the outset of the case. You just need to have an attorney that's up on such matters and willing and able to put in the time and effort to protect your custody rights and access to the children. The more educated you are in your custody rights and the more prepared you are in having your parental rights protected, the less fearful and less hesitant you will be to get away from this person. Start doing your homework now and start looking for a good attorney now before she takes the initiative and beats you to the punch. This will definitely be a case of whoever gets their $hit together and files first with their ducks in a row will have the upper hand. If you can get her on the ropes and her back up against the wall and on defense from the opening salvo, you will stand the best chance.
Eivuwan Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 I think we should also keep in mind that no matter how bad the wife sounds, it would be cruel to force her back to her country without her children. She has no skills here apparently and would not be able to survive in the US. So if he keeps the children, she would be back in her home country alone. It is best to work this out keeping the children's interests in mind. They need their mother too. 2
trippi1432 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 I think we should also keep in mind that no matter how bad the wife sounds, it would be cruel to force her back to her country without her children. She has no skills here apparently and would not be able to survive in the US. So if he keeps the children, she would be back in her home country alone. It is best to work this out keeping the children's interests in mind. They need their mother too. And just to keep in mind that "just for the kids" is not a way to live in an emotional and verbally abusive marriage, no matter the gender. Something here has to change. C-D, she does need IC, but you also cannot force her to go there. She sounds stubborn and stuck in her ways....that's not just a cultural thing...it can also be a pride thing. You don't give a lot of background on your wife....let's step outside of the EA for a moment (and I applaud you for stopping it so you can concentrate on more important matters), what do you know about your wife's background that makes her like this?
oldshirt Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 I think we should also keep in mind that no matter how bad the wife sounds, it would be cruel to force her back to her country without her children. She has no skills here apparently and would not be able to survive in the US. So if he keeps the children, she would be back in her home country alone. It is best to work this out keeping the children's interests in mind. They need their mother too. If she doesn't have skills in the US then what skills would she have in her native country?
Eivuwan Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 If she doesn't have skills in the US then what skills would she have in her native country? Who knows the OP didn't tell us much. Maybe in her home country she can knit baskets and sell them, but that won't be enough to make a living here.
Author cannot-decide Posted June 22, 2014 Author Posted June 22, 2014 After taking a break for a few days, I decided to return hoping to see some comments from people other than Yaz. I am happy to see that some of you seem to identify more with the situation. I also would like to clarify some things and address some of the questions that people posed. My wife is from Latin America. I am not of Latin descent, but learned to speak Spanish through studying it in college and practicing. As a result, we only speak Spanish in our house (we both agreed that it would be good for the kids!) Our MC sessions are also completely in Spanish. As far as her skills, she speaks English well and could survive here in the US, but she was quite a successful entrepreneur back home before moving here, so her prospects are better. One key to this is that, in the case of a divorce, I would offer her long-term alimony in an amount that would still require her to find a job, but she would be able to live comfortably. I also saw my own IC on Friday for the first time. No real feedback yet, but it did help me just to talk through some things. The one thing that really elicited a reaction from my IC was the fact that my wife consistently comments about anything positive that another husband does for his wife. He asked me whether my wife believes that I should be a combination of only the positives of every man she knows, or accepts me as the man that I am. I responded that is was the former, and he wants to discuss that further in the next session. The truth is that I am kind of losing hope for ever being happy with my wife. Although my wife has been incredibly sweet to me for the past several days, she seems to be taking it out on the children. My wife complains that the children only listen to me. My younger one responded the other day that he behaves better for me because he likes me better because I don't yell at him. She has had at least one of them in tears every day for the past week from yelling at them. My older one also expressed a preference in living with me if it comes down to that. I just changed the subject to the USA win over Ghana in the World Cup. I thought one of the added benefits of her going to IC would be that she would learn to deal with the children without getting angry. But she still is adamantly opposed to that. It is hard to see my children treated so harshly. Thank you again for the input everyone. It really has helped me to put some things in perspective.
jakrbbt Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) It sounds like you are in what my excellent MC called a "cycle of criticism and defensiveness." He told us that that cycle is very painful and very difficult to break, but that he has seen couples break it. Once you break that cycle, you can have actual conversations about actual issues. If you can't break the cycle, then in my opinion, you can't discuss the issues an any constructive way. If your issues themselves are hopeless (true incompatibility, broken trust, someone already on the way out), then all that might be a waste of time better spent with divorce preparation. I also think you'd benefit from some assertiveness training, so that when your wife crosses boundaries, you can deal with it in some way other than absenting yourself, which doesn't seem like a satisfying situation for you any more than for her. Edited June 23, 2014 by jakrbbt
tojaz Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 . Although my wife has been incredibly sweet to me for the past several days, she seems to be taking it out on the children. My wife complains that the children only listen to me. My younger one responded the other day that he behaves better for me because he likes me better because I don't yell at him. She has had at least one of them in tears every day for the past week from yelling at them. My older one also expressed a preference in living with me if it comes down to that. I just changed the subject to the USA win over Ghana in the World Cup. I thought one of the added benefits of her going to IC would be that she would learn to deal with the children without getting angry. But she still is adamantly opposed to that. It is hard to see my children treated so harshly. Has she said why she is so opposed to IC? Did you point out how she has treated the children?... if not, start. Not looking for a fight, but just try to politely point out when things are too harsh for what is called for. I'm also going to go back to my original question How does your wife see things? Is she content where shes at? Does she want the marriage to work out? TOJAZ
Mr. Lucky Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 My older one also expressed a preference in living with me if it comes down to that. At this point, why would you be discussing these things with your children ??? Mr. Lucky
Eivuwan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 At this point, why would you be discussing these things with your children ??? Mr. Lucky Yeah, why bring the children into it. They are too young to know what's best. Also, if they have to pick between their parents, it would just lead to more family conflict and dysfunction.
Author cannot-decide Posted June 24, 2014 Author Posted June 24, 2014 TOJAZ -- How does my wife see things? She has expressed both to me directly and in counseling that she does not want a divorce. She is also insistent that I should love and accept her the way that she is. I told her point blank that I cannot do accept her negativity as it brings me down and is, frankly, quite mean. Mr. Lucky -- Why bring the children into it? I didn't. I spent a night at my sister's house recently to watch her children on a school night. When I came home, my eldest begin asking why mommy had to move back to her home country. I responded that it was a possibility due to her mom's health, but we didn't know yet. I had no idea until this point that she had spoken to both of the children. I confronted her about it and she said that she wanted to do it before I did. I was very upset. My older child has brought it up several times and I just tell him it depends on his grandmother's health. CD
tojaz Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 TOJAZ -- How does my wife see things? She has expressed both to me directly and in counseling that she does not want a divorce. She is also insistent that I should love and accept her the way that she is. I told her point blank that I cannot do accept her negativity as it brings me down and is, frankly, quite mean. Yet for some reason you don't warrant the same respect that she demands... She ridicules me and tells me that I need to grow up. The best way to describe her is "a glass half empty" kind of person. She is a SAHM and has never worked in this country. Our children go to private school, we live in a nice house and drive nice cars, but she insists that I am "financially unstable" because I told her that we cannot afford for her to take the children to her home country for a month this summer as she usually does. Has that come up in counseling? How does she see the way she treats you, or has the comparison never come up? TOJAZ
trippi1432 Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 I didn't. I spent a night at my sister's house recently to watch her children on a school night. When I came home, my eldest begin asking why mommy had to move back to her home country. I responded that it was a possibility due to her mom's health, but we didn't know yet. I had no idea until this point that she had spoken to both of the children. I confronted her about it and she said that she wanted to do it before I did. I was very upset. My older child has brought it up several times and I just tell him it depends on his grandmother's health. CD CD - Is your wife upset because her mom is in bad health and trips to her country to see her mother are not affordable...now? Our children go to private school, we live in a nice house and drive nice cars, but she insists that I am "financially unstable" because I told her that we cannot afford for her to take the children to her home country for a month this summer as she usually does. Because here you state she usually goes to see her family in the summer. Granted, private school, a nice house and nice cars are something to build to in a material world......but is that financial instability, no...misaligned priorities....most likely. Anyone can get another car, every year there is a new make and model, but I sense that it's more about family that your wife is upset about. While I do agree taking it out on the kids is not right, culpability typically falls on both sides in a marriage where power struggles exist. Perspective is a really hard thing to reconcile, until you step outside of just yours and she steps outside of just hers. 1
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