What's the difference between privacy and secrecy in a marriage?

June 17, 2014

For me, loyalty, honesty, and trust have been separate, if somewhat related, concepts.

For me, loyalty is a non-negotiable in a relationship.

Honesty is desirable, but my standards aren't strict. Im ok with white lies, and I think there is such a thing as context, and judgement.

But transparency... I'm not sure I want it, and sure I dont want to give it. I feel entitled to some level of privacy. I need it to feel like my own person.

June 18, 2014

My question is, does he know about you and the contact that you have with her, and essentially respects that (offering her "privacy" by my definition) or is he unaware of you, due to the lengths she goes to to keep your contact out of his sight (thus you would be a "secret" by my definition.)

While this is a fine point, I think it's an important one. Choosing not to read the emails would be respecting her privacy. Being unaware of their existence is secrecy. The difference illustrates exactly what this thread is about...

Mr. Lucky

June 18, 2014

So why exactly are secrets bad? What if you are on the same page re: boundaries- you both highly value fidelity' date=' for example -what is so wrong with some thoughts kept to yourself?[/quote']

It's amazing how those boundaries can change - sometimes on an individual and unilateral basis - over decades in a marriage or relationship. If my partner doesn't keep secrets from me, I can attempt to understand those changes.

And why do but do you need to know EVERYTHING about your spouse, to "trust" them?

As Reagan famously said, trust but verify...

Mr. Lucky

June 18, 2014

Privacy is when your boyfriend or girlfriend has some stuff which they want to keep to themselves when they are in a relationship.

Respect is needed in all relationships. You need to respect your boyfriend or girfriend's privacy, They need their own space and ensure they can trust you to ensure they have "room to breath"

June 18, 2014

The definition of INTIMACY is NOT keeping secret your thoughts, feelings emotions.....

THAT is EASY in an affair...Nothing long-term is truly at Stake....That is what makes them so risk-free and easy....IT is always 2 a.m.....closing time and I may never speak, see you again....so I can reveal all....

IN a TRULY intimate relationship, there is NOTHINg in my thoughts, my past, my journal that you do NOT ALREADY know.

I TRUST YOU THAT MUCH.

If you do NOT have that with your SO, you do not have true intimacy.....IMHO.

June 18, 2014

There is a big difference between privacy and secrecy in marriage. Your spouse or partner does not need to know every conversation you have with friends or your thoughts at every moment. Bathroom and grooming are individual decisions.

The line gets crossed when the crap starts with locking your phone , private passwords and e mail accounts , and having conversations with members of opposite sex that you would not have if your partner was standing there.

If you are married you are not entitled to privacy to behave inappropriately on social media:. And that is the big problem today. Just look at the amount of infidelity that start with too much privacy. If you want total privacy and autonomy stay single or talk about open marriage.

June 18, 2014

How many of our spouses know we post on LS? For me this is like journaling - or individual therapy - or more like group therapy - and as such I am entitled to keep these thoughts and venting private. But it is a secrete in my marriage that I post here.

My wife found I out was on a support group for a medical issue a ways back, and was not happy I was sharing (anonymously) my feelings on the issue with fellow patients (some where female). Too bad, it was a support group I needed and my conversations were private.

Dichotomy -- was the support group for the medical issue an online thing? And in any event, how did you and your wife resolve that issue, after she found out you were using that resource? Did she learn to accept it, or was there some other resolution?

June 18, 2014

It seems to me that the people who say that secrets are okay in a marriage are usually the people who have ones. And I'm not talking about "birthday present" secrets...I'm talking about "I have a credit card he doesn't know about" or "I have an online dating profile she doesn't know about" or "I got fired from my job" size secrets.

The reason I think this is because before and when I was in my A, I thought, heck yeah secrets are okay! Why do we need to know every single thing about the other? Isn't that intrusive? Aren't I going to lose "myself"? I need to have something that is just "me."

Now, after years of reconciliation, I have no need for secrets. If it's important, I tell him. I feel our relationship is stronger sharing everything. Yes, my H knows I post on this site. He's welcome to read everything but hasn't. Yes, I have a journal. He's welcome to look at that but has never asked. He can look at my computer, phone, whatever. I don't care. He doesn't because he respects my privacy, as I do with him. But we both understand that if we want to know something, all we have to do is ask.

June 18, 2014

There is a big difference between privacy and secrecy in marriage. Your spouse or partner does not need to know every conversation you have with friends or your thoughts at every moment.

Why not? If they wanted to, is there any reason why they should be allowed to have that information if they wanted, and you were able to provide it? What does not being willing to share that information gain for someone?

Bathroom and grooming are individual decisions.

Granted. I don't insist on being in the bathroom with her, or having her in there with me...but I don't care one way or another if she chooses to stay or asks me to stay to talk about something.

The line gets crossed when the crap starts with locking your phone , private passwords and e mail accounts , and having conversations with members of opposite sex that you would not have if your partner was standing there.
If you are married you are not entitled to privacy to behave inappropriately on social media:. And that is the big problem today. Just look at the amount of infidelity that start with too much privacy. If you want total privacy and autonomy stay single or talk about open marriage.

I'd agree with what you list here...but its clear that others have outlined that they feel these are privacy issues, not secrecy issues (email/phone/etc...).

I guess that my experience has led me to be comfortable wth far less 'privacy' than most folks prefer.

I just don't feel the need for these kinds of boundaries that others seem to want.

I just don't understand why others see the need for them...how they benefit from them?

June 18, 2014

Why not? If they wanted to, is there any reason why they should be allowed to have that information if they wanted, and you were able to provide it? What does not being willing to share that information gain for someone?

I'm not about to recount every conversation I have with a friend to my husband nor do I expect a rehash of his interactions. However, if asked of course I'd tell him & I'd expect the truth if I asked.

June 18, 2014

It seems to me that the people who say that secrets are okay in a marriage are usually the people who have ones. And I'm not talking about "birthday present" secrets...

My wife believes love means that you will not do anything to hurt the person you love. That includes not telling thoughts or things from the past that can be hurtful. It includes not telling about personal mistakes that she had in the past. That is the explanation she has for not telling me about an EA she had.

This is the reason she will not tell her mother about our marital problems - she does not want to hurt her because she loves her.

When I ask her to be open it hurts her to reveal things. If I truly loved her I would not be bringing up conversations that give her emotional pain.

She does not believe in telling children everything, because they are too small and fragile.

This is how she feels about keeping small secrets from her husband and I don't know if this is right or wrong.

But may be she has a point about doing everything in order not to hurt the person you love, even if that means taking a secret to the grave.

June 18, 2014

I don't believe love includes secrecy.

Secrecy grows distance.

Privacy is shutting the bathroom door to do your thing - secrecy involves deception from truth.

Secrecy grows negative energy bigger and encourages denial = not healthy for love to flourish... In fact, squishes the capacity to love because it's detrimental to love growing bigger.

June 18, 2014

First off, OP - congrats on rebuilding your marriage!

My missus has secrets I don't need to know.....

but that's because they're the kind of secrets that do me no harm.

(the kind that still curl up in my eyebrows every time I get that "look" in response to something ourtageous that I say.)

I'm no more of an open book to her, either.

Yet anything truly important involves no guesswork. Straight talk clears the mind, the air, and paves way for more important things.

All that being said - I'm a writer.

And when I'm in work mode (unfinished business) the writing room becomes a private domain (unless invited.)

Funny thing is.....songwriters require not only visual but audio privacy as well.

And the emotional intensity of the activity is just too primal.

But there's never been a challenge to that personal space.

I don't ever "cheat" with a guitar in my arms (as lovely as THAT feels...)

And do I give back the same?

Of course. Whatever she writes, records, sets down in physical form - is her own business (until I'm invited.)

It's those invitations.....................those are the bread and butter times.

They're well worth the wait.

But then.........I've never been the curious obsessed type.

As to bathroom privacy? Ha!

I'm a total prude.

Live long and die hard. (champagne & candle bubblebaths)

June 18, 2014

I'm with you, Owl. My marriage doesn't have privacy or secrecy. I am an open book.

When I have talked about this to family and friends, they seem to think that the reason we have no privacy with each other is because we starting dating so young (in high school).

They seem to think if we had past lives before we met each other, we would have more secrets.

I'd like to that that would NOT be true with us, as I truly feel that secrets can block true intimacy.

June 18, 2014

We've all done things we are not proud of. There are very few pure souls out there.

For example women rarely tell the truth about the number of partners they've had. Or that they've poached someone's marriage when they were "young and stupid" .

Does it mean none of them are worthy of a true loving relationship? What's the point of telling these things to their partners? It can only hurt and trigger resentment, IMO. Why not let your spouse keep some secrets, and don't dig up the past?

June 18, 2014

Secrecy usually involves willful deceit.

Privacy IMO is space to have things for yourself and some spaces of separateness or solitude and for self-care. I think everyone needs this and especially for me, with friends, family, boyfriends, doesn't matter who, I cannot be wholly enmeshed with no spaces of solitude. I would go crazy! I think healthy relationships have spaces of intimacy and then spaces for being separate or caring for self by doing things or having spaces that are yours that are not necessarily couple spaces. I see people conflating privacy and secrecy when even in the dictionary they mean different things...so I'm not sure everyone is working under the same understanding of what each mean.

I love for example taking a shower by myself so that I can think, I love using the bathroom by myself, sometimes I want to be at home alone to watch my shows, eat lol, type on LS. I like taking walks by myself sometimes to just think. I have journals I write in that I don't show anyone. None of these things are secretive things done to deceive a partner or maliciously exclude him. I couldn't be with someone who insisted that this kind of space was unnecessary. Likewise, I welcome my SO having that kind of space.

Each couple decides on the levels of this that are fine for them.

I think you know when privacy is becoming secrecy or when trust/transparency is becoming surveillance. Healthy privacy is something like being able to keep a journal, your partner knowing where this journal is but never feeling the need to read it and you never feeling the need to hide it because you trust them and them you and you respect each other and are secure enough to feel okay with this. Secrecy is feeling the need to put your journal in a lock box in the attic and only taking it out when your partner is away and being fearful of them discovering it and surveillance is an overt concern with knowing your partner's every move and action for fear of wayward behavior.

When you're a couple you choose to share your life (not give up all rights to any kind of solitude or separateness), you choose to be emotionally and physically intimate and to blend certain areas of your life and you choose what personal boundaries or spaces of privacy that you need. Post-infidelity I understand needing to adjust ideas about privacy and I think that's simply an unfortunate fall out of betrayal and it isn't like the reason why the betrayal happened was because of it...which is a big distinction. I think betrayal makes us hyper aware of particular boundaries but sometimes this can become confused and people can wrongfully think that policing certain boundaries would have stopped it or can now prevent it when that's not necessarily the case.

Edited June 18, 2014 by MissBee

June 18, 2014

See...I felt that was fine...right up until that trust was broken and my wife abused that right to 'privacy' to cover her 'secrecy' while having an EA with someone.

She used the phone, the social media accounts, and emails/texts to conduct the affair.

So in order to rebuild trust, she HAD TO give up those passwords to me.

Now...10 years later, I don't recall any of those things. But they're mine for the asking anytime I want. And it works the other way in reverse as well. She's welcome to access any of those things she needs.

I don't feel a need for any kind of 'privacy' like that. Never have...but never worried about it until it turned into 'secrecy' by the above definition.

I've just never really understood the point of 'privacy' like that in a close emotional relationship. What does it gain for you?

I understand that after infidelity, the rules of the game change, but I've approached this discussion from a more general point of view. I think we also need to be careful not to mix cause and effect/means. I don't know what prompted your wife's affair, but it wasn't the fact that she hadn't shared her passwords for social media. Social media was a vehicle. If she had known at the time that you could access her social media accounts, she would probably have found another way of contacting OM. Of course, I have no knowledge about your wife in particular, but my point is that in general, those who really want to deceive, find a way of doing so - although I realise that FB makes it easier to 'reconnect' and so on and so forth.

In terms of your question: I've never thought about it much in that way, because I've always taken those kind of boundaries for granted. The first time I ever read about spouses having the passwords for each others' email accounts were on LS a few years ago, and it seemed weird to me (I'm now excluding situations where it's clear that infidelity has occurred, which is a different scenario). It's simply never occurred to me that I would want that kind of access to my husband's correspondence. To turn your question on its head, I don't see what I gain from that.

But since you started this thread a couple of days ago, I've tried to think a bit more about it. For me, what someone wrote upthread resonates - that to express yourself knowing that no one will read it later can be an important space for processing your thoughts and for self reflection (there's been quite a lot written on that in the wake of the Snowden affair. I think some of those points are applicable to human interactions more generally, even though the context is otherwise different). I also like Miss Bee's discussion of secrecy as being associated with wilful deceit, which I don't associate with 'privacy' at all. To use the bathroom analogy (and my H and I have no problems using the bathroom at the same time if the need occurs) - I have a general idea of what happens when my H uses the bathroom, but I don't feel the need for the details. I also have a general idea about what my H uses his email account for, but I similarly don't see any need or rationale for knowing or accessing the details.

I'm not sure the fact that your wife said that she needed 'privacy' is really about privacy - what she was in fact saying was that she wanted time out to focus on OM, which is about infidelity and wilful deceit.

June 18, 2014

We've all done things we are not proud of. There are very few pure souls out there.

For example women rarely tell the truth about the number of partners they've had. Or that they've poached someone's marriage when they were "young and stupid" .

Does it mean none of them are worthy of a true loving relationship? What's the point of telling these things to their partners? It can only hurt and trigger resentment, IMO. Why not let your spouse keep some secrets, and don't dig up the past?

Because every married person has a right to understand exactly who they are married to.

Pretending otherwise is just creating an illusion based on untruths.

With holding info is still lying by omission.

June 19, 2014

Secrecy usually involves willful deceit.

Privacy IMO is space to have things for yourself and some spaces of separateness or solitude and for self-care. I think everyone needs this and especially for me, with friends, family, boyfriends, doesn't matter who, I cannot be wholly enmeshed with no spaces of solitude. I would go crazy! I think healthy relationships have spaces of intimacy and then spaces for being separate or caring for self by doing things or having spaces that are yours that are not necessarily couple spaces.

Yes! This really resonated with me.

I wonder if our varying answers to this question have a lot to do with our personality types?

Some people seem to need more quiet/private time than others do, for sanity purposes.

I am the type of person who is very introverted, one of my fundamental needs is to have sufficient personal space and private time to recharge so that I can come back and give my best to the relationship.

That's different to keeping secrets, I think. If my partner wants to know what I did on that afternoon or weekend when we were apart - I'll tell him! It's usually pretty boring. But despite the fact I am transparent with what I do, I still need the private time.

June 19, 2014

I truly believe privacy is important in marriage ......secrets like surprise birthday parties are ok...secrets like surprise presents are ok....i think its ludicrous to think if you have a secret for reasons that are negative that you wouldnt know you shouldnt have that secret omisssion......its not privacy or justness to have deception(secret ommissions) of a negative nature.....and secrets like that i feel have the real capacity to destroy relationships. because they snow ball......one secret becomes a necessity to have another then another then another ...and then they get found out.....and it is grenade and landmine city where one sets off another and the secret buildings all fall down....and deception becomes a way of life to stop that from happenning...ok dramatic.....but i cant get that song out of my head grenade .going to listen to it.....by the way i have never married due to grenades....secrets are ommissive grenades that eventually always are revealed and they go off like landmines........deb

June 19, 2014

Dichotomy -- was the support group for the medical issue an online thing? And in any event, how did you and your wife resolve that issue, after she found out you were using that resource? Did she learn to accept it, or was there some other resolution?

Yes it was an online thing. She was told by me (and in a nicer way by therapist) to deal with it, as it was appropriate for me to seek emotional and other support with fellow patients male or female and it was anonymous.

My wife had caught crap from me and therapist for sharing this medical issue about me to her GF's when I asked her to keep it private and never share it with anyone..... So she tried to use this (me using online anonymous support group of fellow patients) to try to get back at me. "your talking to some strange woman online about your personal feelings... sharing things!" Not the same of course.

An example of privacy

Edited June 19, 2014 by dichotomy

June 19, 2014

Secrecy usually involves willful deceit.

Privacy IMO is space to have things for yourself and some spaces of separateness or solitude and for self-care. I think everyone needs this and especially for me, with friends, family, boyfriends, doesn't matter who, I cannot be wholly enmeshed with no spaces of solitude. I would go crazy! I think healthy relationships have spaces of intimacy and then spaces for being separate or caring for self by doing things or having spaces that are yours that are not necessarily couple spaces. I see people conflating privacy and secrecy when even in the dictionary they mean different things...so I'm not sure everyone is working under the same understanding of what each mean.

I love for example taking a shower by myself so that I can think, I love using the bathroom by myself, sometimes I want to be at home alone to watch my shows, eat lol, type on LS. I like taking walks by myself sometimes to just think. I have journals I write in that I don't show anyone. None of these things are secretive things done to deceive a partner or maliciously exclude him. I couldn't be with someone who insisted that this kind of space was unnecessary. Likewise, I welcome my SO having that kind of space.

Each couple decides on the levels of this that are fine for them.

I think you know when privacy is becoming secrecy or when trust/transparency is becoming surveillance. Healthy privacy is something like being able to keep a journal, your partner knowing where this journal is but never feeling the need to read it and you never feeling the need to hide it because you trust them and them you and you respect each other and are secure enough to feel okay with this. Secrecy is feeling the need to put your journal in a lock box in the attic and only taking it out when your partner is away and being fearful of them discovering it and surveillance is an overt concern with knowing your partner's every move and action for fear of wayward behavior.

When you're a couple you choose to share your life (not give up all rights to any kind of solitude or separateness), you choose to be emotionally and physically intimate and to blend certain areas of your life and you choose what personal boundaries or spaces of privacy that you need. Post-infidelity I understand needing to adjust ideas about privacy and I think that's simply an unfortunate fall out of betrayal and it isn't like the reason why the betrayal happened was because of it...which is a big distinction. I think betrayal makes us hyper aware of particular boundaries but sometimes this can become confused and people can wrongfully think that policing certain boundaries would have stopped it or can now prevent it when that's not necessarily the case.

OK...now someone here has used examples I can wrap around and agree with, and understand more.

Let me clarify a few things in my marriage, and it might make a bit more sense.

While I say that my wife and I don't worry about secrecy/privacy, I'd hazard that (after reading this post) this is both true and untrue.

Because there are indeed times when my wife enjoys her solitude. She'll occasionally spend a day upstairs in our bedroom. Now, I'm welcome to join her anytime, and I've even done so upon occasion, and she's made it clear that she enjoys my presence. By the same token, I understand why she does this. It's QUIET, unlike the rest of our house.

I do some of my best thinking in the shower, as you mentioned above.

I interact with people far more than I actually enjoy in my daily life, and often I get to a point where I've got to get away from them. Hence, my backpacking/camping trips. Usually with one or more of my sons, occasionally with my wife, or rarely, solo.

My wife doesn't share this need...she gets her time differently.

But...key to all of this...what makes it NOT 'privacy' or 'secrecy', is that my wife is always welcome to be with me on these trips, and I'm always welcome to join her when she's getting her quiet time. Its not each other that we're trying to get away from.

But I can agree with what you're saying. I'd guess that your idea of appropriate 'privacy' in a marriage is likely similar to mine.

Good conversation folks...thanks!

June 19, 2014

I am the type of person who is very introverted, one of my fundamental needs is to have sufficient personal space and private time to recharge so that I can come back and give my best to the relationship.

This is me as well! I'm fortunate that my H understands my introvertedness and gives me space when I need it. After our d-day it was a bit more challenging, but now we have a good balance. When I ask for some "me time" he knows to not take it personally. I guess this would be a version of privacy.

Thanks Owl, for starting an interesting discussion.

June 19, 2014

One of my fundamental needs is to have sufficient personal space and private time to recharge so that I can come back and give my best to the relationship.

That's different to keeping secrets, I think. If my partner wants to know what I did on that afternoon or weekend when we were apart - I'll tell him! It's usually pretty boring. But despite the fact I am transparent with what I do, I still need the private time.

I very much identify with this. I need time alone - completely alone. But that's very unrelated to having secrets, IMO. I wouldn't really call it privacy, either, I just think of it as 'time alone'.

June 20, 2014

But...key to all of this...what makes it NOT 'privacy' or 'secrecy', is that my wife is always welcome to be with me on these trips, and I'm always welcome to join her when she's getting her quiet time. Its not each other that we're trying to get away from.

Yes... and no. Or perhaps we just haven't communicated perfectly yet.

My SO is not welcome to attend my private time, unless he actually needs me (in which case, I will absolutely drop everything to be there and reschedule my "me" time). And there are times I may choose to travel or otherwise get away and he's just not invited. He's OK with that.

I understand how an extrovert could be made to feel unloved by this behaviour (or someone who had suffered a betrayal could be made to feel suspicious).

That's the benefit of two introverts becoming partners, I suppose. If he wants to go off for the afternoon hunting, or hang out in the shed totally by himself doing boy stuff, I'm not offended either. I wouldn't expect him to tolerate my presence 100% of the time. I'm sure I'd drive him nuts.

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