road Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Well knowing everything depends, If my wife wants to know where I am, I really dont mind telling her but too much will just be TOO MUCH for her. Of course would want to know where I am but not every sec of the day It is not right and never will be right for another person to decide what someone else should know.
katielee Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 It is not right and never will be right for another person to decide what someone else should know. This!! If people only understood how very detrimental it is for another person to make decisions for you....and how very disrespectful it is. If my husband and I divorce it may be over this - that he continues to determine what is right for me. 2
badkarma2013 Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Are you so sure about EVERYTHING? No stone unturned? What went on privately between two consenting albeit cheating adults? How do we talk about truth when the subject is oral sex? Each and every sordid 2 hour love making session? Where each of their mouths went? do we want maps of their erotic desire? Does your WS have the right to his private thoughts? Do you? YES I wanted everything...the Om answered that question by showing me pics of my EXWW and Him doing everything to her she never did with me in 22 years.. Decision was very easy at that point...No Forgiveness...No Reconcilitation...NO Marriage... Edited June 21, 2014 by badkarma2013 add
fellini Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) YES I wanted everything...the Om answered that question by showing me pics of my EXWW and Him doing everything to her she never did with me in 22 years.. Decision was very easy at that point...No Forgiveness...No Reconcilitation...NO Marriage... Yes I remember. But having someone show you photographic evidence of what you already know is going on is going to hit in a psychological way that not seeing them might not. I know that my WS and her AP had tons of oral sex, I know this because she was stupid to tell me he had problems with testosterone levels so he could not have regular sex. I did NOT WANT THIS INFORMATION. It has made recovery from the trauma of the affair EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. But if he showed me selfies he took of the two of them doing each other then I would probably like you, end my marriage. Not because of what they had done: but because I would be unable to forgive and to forget those images in my head. In other words, not because of what i knew, but because those images would mess up my brain forever. Im not saying this is your case. But I do know that would be my difference. The same if I had walked in and saw them doing their business on my bed. I would not be able to overcome the level of privacy that that image entails so as to move forward with her. I would have walked away forever. So obviously I disagree with a previous posters little quibble that privacy is about going to the bathroom. I do not care what some people believe being "in a union" means. A "union" is not a friggin FUSSION. My S does not own me, and I do not OWN her. She has no right to my PRIVATE thoughts. Nonewhatsoever. If I thought I would have to "confess" every private thought I had walking down the street and seeing an attractive woman, or becoming excited watching Scarlett Johannsen in a tight suit in a movie, or having fantasies about ways of doing it, I would SUFFOCATE in this marriage. No one signed up for 100% transparency of the mind when they said I DO. A slow honest read of Esther Perel's chapter "The shadow of the third" in which she talks about the healthy and vital concept of the third in a union of two would be useful for those who think that a union is nothing less than fusion. Edited June 21, 2014 by fellini 1
purplesorrow Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Yes I remember. But having someone show you photographic evidence of what you already know is going on is going to hit in a psychological way that not seeing them might not. I know that my WS and her AP had tons of oral sex, I know this because she was stupid to tell me he had problems with testosterone levels so he could not have regular sex. I did NOT WANT THIS INFORMATION. It has made recovery from the trauma of the affair EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. But if he showed me selfies he took of the two of them doing each other then I would probably like you, end my marriage. Not because of what they had done: but because I would be unable to forgive and to forget those images in my head. In other words, not because of what i knew, but because those images would mess up my brain forever. Im not saying this is your case. But I do know that would be my difference. The same if I had walked in and saw them doing their business on my bed. I would not be able to overcome the level of privacy that that image entails so as to move forward with her. I would have walked away forever. So obviously I disagree with a previous posters little quibble that privacy is about going to the bathroom. I do not care what some people believe being "in a union" means. A "union" is not a friggin FUSSION. My S does not own me, and I do not OWN her. She has no right to my PRIVATE thoughts. Nonewhatsoever. If I thought I would have to "confess" every private thought I had walking down the street and seeing an attractive woman, or becoming excited watching Scarlett Johannsen in a tight suit in a movie, or having fantasies about ways of doing it, I would SUFFOCATE in this marriage. No one signed up for 100% transparency of the mind when they said I DO. A slow honest read of Esther Perel's chapter "The shadow of the third" in which she talks about the healthy and vital concept of the third in a union of two would be useful for those who think that a union is nothing less than fusion. If my WH had disclosed he was attracted to a coworker who was flirting with him it could have changed the course of everything. Instead he kept it private which helped it to become a dirty little secret and her a dirty little habit. I don't believe it is a fusion. That being said if one is trying to protect their marriage as they should, anything that could be detrimental should be shared by both partners. 1
fellini Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 If my WH had disclosed he was attracted to a coworker who was flirting with him it could have changed the course of everything. Instead he kept it private which helped it to become a dirty little secret and her a dirty little habit. I don't believe it is a fusion. That being said if one is trying to protect their marriage as they should, anything that could be detrimental should be shared by both partners. I agree. Had my WS disclosed she was attracted to a coworker who she was interested in flirting with it could have changed the course of everything. IN fact it was the moment that something happened between them that she failed to tell me about, that converted it into a secret. Once a SO deliberately knows that what they are doing is wrong, they are on the path of betrayal. This is why I suggested there is secrecy (and it's concomitant "lies") and there is privacy. The first lie is when the WS says, I'm not going to mention this little event to my spouse. And does not ask him/herself, WHY NOT. But please READ what others here are saying. They are imagining that married life means you DIVULGE EVERYTHING TO YOUR SPOUSE!!! 1
badkarma2013 Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I agree. Had my WS disclosed she was attracted to a coworker who she was interested in flirting with it could have changed the course of everything. IN fact it was the moment that something happened between them that she failed to tell me about, that converted it into a secret. Once a SO deliberately knows that what they are doing is wrong, they are on the path of betrayal. This is why I suggested there is secrecy (and it's concomitant "lies") and there is privacy. The first lie is when the WS says, I'm not going to mention this little event to my spouse. And does not ask him/herself, WHY NOT. But please READ what others here are saying. They are imagining that married life means you DIVULGE EVERYTHING TO YOUR SPOUSE!!! So true..However most of us here saw Dozens maybe Hundred red flags but chose to do nothing...Because of the thought .."Your wife would Betray you..Mine wouldnt..." How foolish. Every Dog will Bite you...every one of them given the right set of circumstances ....EVERY ONE OF THEM.
Trustnoone Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 When it comes to infidelity the BS should know what they feel comfortable with. What you hear cannot be unheard. So if you want all the details then get them from the WS. My WW said I don't remember many times during our conversations. After one conversation she went to bed. On her way past me she said I love you. I said nothing and after she got ten feet away she asked if I heard her. I said yes. She said, well? I said I don't remember. Needless to say WW didn't say that again. I get answers to my questions. For me it helped but for others it destroys. Each affair is different along with recovery. What may work for you might not for me. If your gut is unsettled then get to that truth. When your gut says I'm good with what I have then make a decision. Allow for your anger to subside and use time as there is no statue of limitations involved. Good luck to you. 1
Author Ultramarine Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 Before my wife's affair, I think I thought of marital infidelity in a very abstract sense. It's like it happened in the movies or perhaps to other people but certainly wouldn't apply to my wife and I. I almost think I thought we were too smart for that. I was obviously quite wrong. It startles me to see how prevalent it is. I still have these moments. It can't be happening to me. This recent discovery that there is something else to be discovered is like yet another DDay. I am probably still stuck between denial and anger. And I am also waiting to be hit by something down the road, when he decides he's ready to talk about it...hopefully, sooner than later. In a similar fashion, even after I learned all of this, it wasn't until I started reading infidelity forums (especially wayward and OM/OW forums) that I thought people would be so low as to put a spouse through multiple Ddays and false reconciliations. I guess I figured that once the secret was out, well the jig is up and people would just leave or stay, not resume the disaster. Yes. I told H a couple of days ago that I wish he would just pick a day and tell me everything he's been lying to me about or hiding from me (same thing, really) for the last seven years. I would like to not have any more surprises in the future that will send me back to DDay 1. Or probably worse...I didn't know everything on DDay 1 and I held up a lot better. This past week, I've been having flashback after flashback, every single one of them sending me into a panic attack; having trouble sleeping and eating and I can't stop thinking about it and imagining anything possible...It's cruel to do this to people, especially to do this more than once. It's a tall order and it can take years to even have faith that you know what kind of WS you have on your hands. The patience required is mind-boggling. So, I can understand a policy of never reconciling with someone that has betrayed me. Except that the next person may be no better. If they're a fWS, how do we know that they learned their lesson if we never saw any of it first-hand? If they've never been on any point of the triangle, they probably don't know crap about healthy boundaries (which would make me really nervous). If they were a fBS, perhaps they are broken and bitter and have decided that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." (...) There's no guarantees and any relationship requires you to be vulnerable. You can either decide at some point to risk it or you can become a cat lady. Some risk it with the devil they know and some try to start with someone new. Agree with that. For a person like the OP, I wouldn't remotely hesitate to dredge up the past and I would be looking for my wayward to be carrying a shovel. No rug sweeping, no going around it, and no nonsense about it being in the past, being private or other such bullsh*t. That kind of crap would NOT speak to true remorse to me and I would have boundaries crashing down (via divorce papers) until I got exactly what I needed to feel safe. True, I saw lack of remorse or at least avoidance of guilt. He changed his mind somewhat the same day. He said that he was afraid of how I would take the news and that he would consider talking about it at a later date. His counselor advised waiting until things stabilize a bit. I don't know how much sense it makes though...it just seems like prolonging my misery. To those who said "listen to your gut" - my gut tells me I need to know everything. Not because I want our sex life to be ruined by intrusive thoughts but because I need him to undo the lies...I don't know how much sense I'm making. I'm beginning IC next week which, I hope will help me make sense out of things and get my mental health under control. I'm guessing I will need anti-anxiety pills to even continue to deal with this. I really want to start MC but H keeps saying he wants to sort his own issues out first.
Author Ultramarine Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 What did you actually brought up to him? The direct questions about the past, or the struggle you are in because of the trust issue and the unknown? I think it is better to separate those two, and work on it one at a time. Convey to him thoroughly about you struggle first, and left the questions for another time. Make him really understand what and why you want it (as in the bold part of your quote). After all that, evaluate his understanding and readiness to conform to you, and to work with you. Obviously if he doesn't, then no matter how much you ask, he won't provide you with satisfactory answer. If that all is just to hard, you can skip it all and try this: Basically, try to start a new relationship of openness and transparency based on the present time. The downside is of course you have to bury the past, and to deem them to be insignificant for the present. At least, perhaps by doing that, you can minimize this trust issue, and focus on other aspects of the relationship. Yeah, too optimist, very naive, but workable. However, having said all that, I can't help but be quite skeptical too. Reading through your threads, it seems your H is just like so many other MM. More willing to be fantastic with other women, rather than spend the required effort on the marriage issue (which is always more difficult than having an affair). So sad.. reminds me very much of that famous quote of Edmund Burke. What quote? I brought up exactly what you describe above. I probably should have saved the questions for another time, true, but he wanted to talk then, so I went along. It seems that once he had some time to think about it, he was able to see where I was coming from and he said that if I absolutely need to know, he will talk about it. Right now, the tentative timeline is after I talk to my counselor next week. The important thing to me is that, instead of pulling the bs about how everyone has their secrets, he admitted that he doesn't want to go there because he's not proud of it. Thanks for your suggestions about starting a "new relationship." This is a sentiment that my H voiced and that I asked myself if I could do. I can't.
Author Ultramarine Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 I wanted to know everything, I needed to have an idea of what it was, to not have it all, warts and everything else meant I painted pictures in my head based upon what me and H had. Romance, love, respect, the truth was far from it and that was shared by OW and H. Knowing everything meant they had no shared secrets, all was spread out and as hard as it was to hear some stuff, it also meant I was able to make an informed decision based upon what was rather than anything I might imagine. This. Thank you.
Author Ultramarine Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 So obviously I disagree with a previous posters little quibble that privacy is about going to the bathroom. I do not care what some people believe being "in a union" means. A "union" is not a friggin FUSSION. My S does not own me, and I do not OWN her. She has no right to my PRIVATE thoughts. Nonewhatsoever. If I thought I would have to "confess" every private thought I had walking down the street and seeing an attractive woman, or becoming excited watching Scarlett Johannsen in a tight suit in a movie, or having fantasies about ways of doing it, I would SUFFOCATE in this marriage. No one signed up for 100% transparency of the mind when they said I DO. A slow honest read of Esther Perel's chapter "The shadow of the third" in which she talks about the healthy and vital concept of the third in a union of two would be useful for those who think that a union is nothing less than fusion. I have to reluctantly agree with you. And, incidentally, I enjoyed Perel's book very much. But...how do you balance the shaky trust (or lack of it) with the distance you are advised to keep, and even more, with the "shadow of the third"?
Oberfeldwebel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Some people just don't have it in them to be honest after they have invested so much in their lies. I sometimes wonder if they have been lying for so long, they don't know the lie from the truth. In the long run it didn't matter to me. I just woke up one day and just said f-it, I really don't care anymore, I knew she had cheated and that was enough. Because at that point I didn't really care, it was easy to move on. It took awhile to get to that point, but I finally made it happen.
StrongHusband Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 Well, for me it would be a good opportunity for a conversation. So yes, I would ask my WW to tell me everything. But this is not for the weak of heart. As the truth can hurt like hell. In the end, it is up to you. If you can take it, why not? If you think it would help, why not? Just be ready to face the pain.
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