Do you need to know everything?

[Ultramarine]

Hi there. Some background to my story here

To my knowledge, the extent of H's infidelity in the past has been kissing a girl 5 years ago, sexting/inappropriate photos 2.5 years ago, and several EAs. Up until today, I thought that was the truth.

 

In an effort to move past our infidelity issues, I realized that I've never really dealt with any of it or established any boundaries for H or for myself (other than that a PA would not be tolerated). What I did instead was avoid conflicts (to a degree) and ignore my feelings. And get depressed, and question myself, and then desperately try to trust him again - which seems a bit messed up...on one hand, I try to keep respecting his privacy, on the other hand, I have no trust.

 

Anyway, I think that in order to move past this %$##@, I really need to dig up the past. I feel that I need to know everything, the worst of it, and let myself feel and talk through it.

 

When I brought this up to H, he let me ask a couple of questions but got defensive very quickly...I really only asked about that affair 5 years ago. He says that everyone is entitled to their secrets and there is no point in dredging up the past.

 

Is there? Do you think you have to know everything in order to move past it and try to build trust in the future? I feel that I can't really allow myself to trust him if he's not even letting me in on what already happened.

 

On the other hand, should you dig something as far as 5 years ago? Is there a statute of limitations on these things?

Edited June 17, 2014 by Ultramarine

[2sunny]

Oh wow, I'm sorry for you - you have every right to ask for his truth and feel that he should be honest with you - the idea that he won't just sucks - I'm not sure I could live that way.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Some people need to know everything to move on, whether it be with their partners via reconciliation or with themselves, via divorce. One might argue that the past is the past and that to know the full truth can only hurt you more and for some people that's true, but you should be the one to decide that and you alone.

 

My own mother dug back more than a decade when she found out about my stepfather's affair and kept digging until she was satisfied she got the full truth. It was painful as hell, and the more she dug the worse it got - there was a second lovechild, an affair with a close friend of hers and a neighbor, etc. But she couldn't rest until she felt certain she knew it all.

 

My stepdad did the same thing as your husband....tried to deflect or claim that since some things happened so long ago he either "forgot" or that it was pointless to discuss it then anyway. A BS copout that even a child could see through.

 

As for me, when I found out about my boyfriend cheating there really wasn't much to do in the way of digging in secret. No going though his phone or checking emails, all I did was ask. And ask, and ask, and ask. I pryed until I got dates, times, names, extents, etc.

 

I kept at it until I could be sure to some degree I knew everything. It hurt, yes. And as was true in my mom's case, the more I uncovered the worse it got. But there has never been a moment when I wish I never knew. I think if he had continued to lie or evade my questions I would never have been able to forgive him. The worst thing in the world is not knowing. Especially when you know there is more to, well...KNOW.

 

 

Everyone is entitled to their secrets, but no one is entitled to have affairs and continue lying to their partners and expect things to be swept under the rug.

 

There is no statute of limitations on the truth. You deserve to know everything and if your husband can't be honest then he doesn't deserve you.

[BetrayedH]

Of the 5 stages of grief, they say denial is the first stage and acceptance is the last.

 

Personally, I don't know how you ever accept something (let alone, forgive it) until you know what exactly you're accepting.

 

I also believe that if a wayward wants you to reconcile with them, they owe you whatever details you request. They are not entitled to hiding their affair if they expect you to forgive it.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Of the 5 stages of grief, they say denial is the first stage and acceptance is the last.

 

Personally, I don't know how you ever accept something (let alone, forgive it) until you know what exactly you're accepting.

 

I also believe that if a wayward wants you to reconcile with them, they owe you whatever details you request. They are not entitled to hiding their affair if they expect you to forgive it.

 

This! Yes, especially the bolded. I was trying to get at something like this but sort of rambled in another direction. Anything other than knowing the full truth is really just blind forgiveness. It's accepting lies and putting your faith in someone who has proven to be faithless all over again.

[Speakingofwhich]

How can you question someone who has betrayed you and lied to you about it and expect you're going to finally get the truth of the matter(s) from that person?

[HereNorThere]

You don't have to know everything, but it sounds like you're bothered by the fact you don't know anything. The issue here is that you don't believe him, but why would you? No one has this many slip ups without it ever turning physical, especially guys, lol.

 

Decide whether you can live with a lie or the truth. It's odd to me that some people just don't want to know, but there are a lot of people like that.

[BetrayedH]

How can you question someone who has betrayed you and lied to you about it and expect you're going to finally get the truth of the matter(s) from that person?

 

A truly remorseful wayward will go to great lengths to prove themselves. Unfortunately for the OP, it sounds like she's dealing with the opposite.

[Speakingofwhich]

A truly remorseful wayward will go to great lengths to prove themselves. Unfortunately for the OP, it sounds like she's dealing with the opposite.

 

If a person is remorseful and seems to be trying to prove themselves by going to great lengths that's a sign they are telling the truth?

 

Not being facetious, just not sure how one could ever believe another who had lied to them. It seems naive to me.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Speakingofwhich

[BetrayedH]

If a person is remorseful and seems to be trying to prove themselves by going to great lengths that's a sign they are telling the truth?

 

Not being facetious, just not sure how one could ever believe another who had lied to them. It seems naive to me.

 

The operative phrase is "consistent actions over time." That's how trust is built and it's how trust is rebuilt.

 

If you're asking for a guarantee of honesty or fidelity, well, there isn't one - with anyone. That's a lesson we all learn as BSs. Many of us eventually choose to trust again, not because we necessarily believe in blind trust again but because life without love and companionship (which is inherently risky) is not a good way to live.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm prone to trust a wayward that has learned their lesson about the destructiveness of affairs moreso than an innocent virgin who knows nothing of them.

[Speakingofwhich]

The operative phrase is "consistent actions over time." That's how trust is built and it's how trust is rebuilt.

 

If you're asking for a guarantee of honesty or fidelity, well, there isn't one - with anyone. That's a lesson we all learn as BSs. Many of us eventually choose to trust again, not because we necessarily believe in blind trust again but because life without love and companionship (which is inherently risky) is not a good way to live.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm prone to trust a wayward that has learned their lesson about the destructiveness of affairs moreso than an innocent virgin who knows nothing of them.

 

Thanks for expounding, BH. Most of your post makes sense to me.

 

I find that I trust a wayward who is out of the R (especially if the BS has left him) he cheated in because then it seems to me he has truly learned his lesson.

 

But, frankly, as an OW (FOW now) I watched my MM go through two D days and convince his BS that he had changed his ways, when in reality he hadn't skipped a beat in his behavior with me.

 

After the second D day he was so good at convincing her that he was being faithful to her that she actually apologized to him for doubting him (he told me, not sure why he'd have reason to lie about it). So it seems she believes his actions have been consistent over time. I guess because I've seen (lived) this behind the scenes action if anyone ever cheated on me in the future I wouldn't be able to stay with them.

 

But, yes, could trust a reformed wayward whose BS had left him. Have dated and trusted such a person.

[Oberfeldwebel]

This is exactly why you don't want to rug sweep issues. They don't go away they just continue to simmer, until they eventually they boil over. If this relationship is ever going to heal, you have to deal with the problems. I recommend counseling, so it isn't just unreasonable you (his view), vs him. They can give an unbiased perspective, allowing you to vent and heal, while giving him an understanding of the hurt that he has caused to the relationship. This is something that he obviously is missing at this time. Best of luck to you and your family.

[road]

 

On the other hand, should you dig something as far as 5 years ago? Is there a statute of limitations on these things?

 

 

 

Yes dig.

There is no limit.

[BetrayedH]

Thanks for expounding, BH. Most of your post makes sense to me.

 

I find that I trust a wayward who is out of the R (especially if the BS has left him) he cheated in because then it seems to me he has truly learned his lesson.

 

But, frankly, as an OW (FOW now) I watched my MM go through two D days and convince his BS that he had changed his ways, when in reality he hadn't skipped a beat in his behavior with me.

 

After the second D day he was so good at convincing her that he was being faithful to her that she actually apologized to him for doubting him (he told me, not sure why he'd have reason to lie about it). So it seems she believes his actions have been consistent over time. I guess because I've seen (lived) this behind the scenes action if anyone ever cheated on me in the future I wouldn't be able to stay with them.

 

But, yes, could trust a reformed wayward whose BS had left him. Have dated and trusted such a person.

 

I can understand all that. Before my wife's affair, I think I thought of marital infidelity in a very abstract sense. It's like it happened in the movies or perhaps to other people but certainly wouldn't apply to my wife and I. I almost think I thought we were too smart for that. I was obviously quite wrong. It startles me to see how prevalent it is.

 

In a similar fashion, even after I learned all of this, it wasn't until I started reading infidelity forums (especially wayward and OM/OW forums) that I thought people would be so low as to put a spouse through multiple Ddays and false reconciliations. I guess I figured that once the secret was out, well the jig is up and people would just leave or stay, not resume the disaster.

 

So, to a real extent, I find myself agreeing with your perspective more and more over time. I used to be a real champion for reconciliation. Now I'm a bit more of a skeptic. When you hear me say 'true remorse,' it's pretty much a technical term in my mind. It requires far more than words, although the words say a lot, too. To me it's about openness and transparency. It needs to be not just voluntary on the part of the WS but proactive. And the BS needs to embrace hypervigilance (including asking ALL of the questions) so that the WS can prove themselves. This is besides IC (to determine the 'why') and MC (to provide reassurance) and the other basic tenets of reconciling.

 

It's a tall order and it can take years to even have faith that you know what kind of WS you have on your hands. The patience required is mind-boggling. So, I can understand a policy of never reconciling with someone that has betrayed me. Except that the next person may be no better. If they're a fWS, how do we know that they learned their lesson if we never saw any of it first-hand? If they've never been on any point of the triangle, they probably don't know crap about healthy boundaries (which would make me really nervous). If they were a fBS, perhaps they are broken and bitter and have decided that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." That's honestly a big part of what happened to me when I had my own affair and became both a WH and an OM to a married woman.

 

The fact is that there are a lot of broken people out there who will jump at the opportunity for some external validation, especially once the limerance of a nee relationship wears off. And it's damn near impossible to KNOW anything. There's no guarantees and any relationship requires you to be vulnerable. You can either decide at some point to risk it or you can become a cat lady. Some risk it with the devil they know and some try to start with someone new.

 

I really have no idea who is right. What I'm learning is how to be a little better at communicating my boundaries and I've shed my notions of naivete and blind trust. I will ask whatever questions I like, I will verify whatever I need, and I will trust my gut. For a person like the OP, I wouldn't remotely hesitate to dredge up the past and I would be looking for my wayward to be carrying a shovel. No rug sweeping, no going around it, and no nonsense about it being in the past, being private or other such bullsh*t. That kind of crap would NOT speak to true remorse to me and I would have boundaries crashing down (via divorce papers) until I got exactly what I needed to feel safe.

 

For others, their mileage may vary. Hopefully something in here is of use to the OP.

[A.Moscote]

...and then desperately try to trust him again - which seems a bit messed up...on one hand, I try to keep respecting his privacy, on the other hand, I have no trust.

 

Anyway, I think that in order to move past this %$##@, I really need to dig up the past. I feel that I need to know everything, the worst of it, and let myself feel and talk through it.

 

When I brought this up to H...

What did you actually brought up to him? The direct questions about the past, or the struggle you are in because of the trust issue and the unknown? I think it is better to separate those two, and work on it one at a time. Convey to him thoroughly about you struggle first, and left the questions for another time. Make him really understand what and why you want it (as in the bold part of your quote). After all that, evaluate his understanding and readiness to conform to you, and to work with you. Obviously if he doesn't, then no matter how much you ask, he won't provide you with satisfactory answer.

 

If that all is just to hard, you can skip it all and try this:

...To me it's about openness and transparency. It needs to be not just voluntary on the part of the WS but proactive. And the BS needs to embrace hypervigilance (including asking ALL of the questions *of the present time) so that the WS can prove themselves.

Basically, try to start a new relationship of openness and transparency based on the present time. The downside is of course you have to bury the past, and to deem them to be insignificant for the present. At least, perhaps by doing that, you can minimize this trust issue, and focus on other aspects of the relationship. Yeah, too optimist, very naive, but workable.

 

However, having said all that, I can't help but be quite skeptical too. Reading through your threads, it seems your H is just like so many other MM. More willing to be fantastic with other women, rather than spend the required effort on the marriage issue (which is always more difficult than having an affair).

 

After the second D day he was so good at convincing her that he was being faithful to her that she actually apologized to him for doubting him (he told me, not sure why he'd have reason to lie about it). So it seems she believes his actions have been consistent over time. I guess because I've seen (lived) this behind the scenes action if anyone ever cheated on me in the future I wouldn't be able to stay with them.

So sad.. reminds me very much of that famous quote of Edmund Burke.

[Speakingofwhich]

I can understand all that. Before my wife's affair, I think I thought of marital infidelity in a very abstract sense. It's like it happened in the movies or perhaps to other people but certainly wouldn't apply to my wife and I. I almost think I thought we were too smart for that. I was obviously quite wrong. It startles me to see how prevalent it is.

 

In a similar fashion, even after I learned all of this, it wasn't until I started reading infidelity forums (especially wayward and OM/OW forums) that I thought people would be so low as to put a spouse through multiple Ddays and false reconciliations. I guess I figured that once the secret was out, well the jig is up and people would just leave or stay, not resume the disaster.

 

So, to a real extent, I find myself agreeing with your perspective more and more over time. I used to be a real champion for reconciliation. Now I'm a bit more of a skeptic. When you hear me say 'true remorse,' it's pretty much a technical term in my mind. It requires far more than words, although the words say a lot, too. To me it's about openness and transparency. It needs to be not just voluntary on the part of the WS but proactive. And the BS needs to embrace hypervigilance (including asking ALL of the questions) so that the WS can prove themselves. This is besides IC (to determine the 'why') and MC (to provide reassurance) and the other basic tenets of reconciling.

 

It's a tall order and it can take years to even have faith that you know what kind of WS you have on your hands. The patience required is mind-boggling. So, I can understand a policy of never reconciling with someone that has betrayed me. Except that the next person may be no better. If they're a fWS, how do we know that they learned their lesson if we never saw any of it first-hand? If they've never been on any point of the triangle, they probably don't know crap about healthy boundaries (which would make me really nervous). If they were a fBS, perhaps they are broken and bitter and have decided that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." That's honestly a big part of what happened to me when I had my own affair and became both a WH and an OM to a married woman.

 

The fact is that there are a lot of broken people out there who will jump at the opportunity for some external validation, especially once the limerance of a nee relationship wears off. And it's damn near impossible to KNOW anything. There's no guarantees and any relationship requires you to be vulnerable. You can either decide at some point to risk it or you can become a cat lady. Some risk it with the devil they know and some try to start with someone new.

 

I really have no idea who is right. What I'm learning is how to be a little better at communicating my boundaries and I've shed my notions of naivete and blind trust. I will ask whatever questions I like, I will verify whatever I need, and I will trust my gut. For a person like the OP, I wouldn't remotely hesitate to dredge up the past and I would be looking for my wayward to be carrying a shovel. No rug sweeping, no going around it, and no nonsense about it being in the past, being private or other such bullsh*t. That kind of crap would NOT speak to true remorse to me and I would have boundaries crashing down (via divorce papers) until I got exactly what I needed to feel safe.

 

For others, their mileage may vary. Hopefully something in here is of use to the OP.

 

BH, this is, imo, right on the money. Hopefully, it will be helpful to the OP.

[fellini]

Yes dig.

There is no limit.

 

 

I disagree entirely, even as a BS.

 

He says that everyone is entitled to their secrets and there is no point in dredging up the past.

 

 

No, they are not entitled to their secrets, but yes, they are entitled to their privacy. I'll leave it for you to figure out what is what.

Edited June 17, 2014 by fellini

[BetrayedH]

No, they are not entitled to their secrets, but yes, they are entitled to their privacy. I'll leave it for you to figure out what is what.

 

IMO, a marriage is a union. Privacy is for the bathroom.

[Owl]

I think this poses an excellent question...what's the difference between 'privacy' and 'secrecy' in a marriage...and why are either needed in one?

 

I'm gonna start a thread on those lines over in the 'marriage' section for anyone interested.

[katielee]

Yes I need to know everything. And from his mouth too. Need to have all the facts so I can make a choice. Anything else is manipulating me...

[fellini]

Yes I need to know everything. And from his mouth too. Need to have all the facts so I can make a choice. Anything else is manipulating me...

 

Are you so sure about EVERYTHING? No stone unturned? What went on privately between two consenting albeit cheating adults? How do we talk about truth when the subject is oral sex? Each and every sordid 2 hour love making session?

 

Where each of their mouths went? do we want maps of their erotic desire? Does your WS have the right to his private thoughts? Do you?

[katielee]

when I say everything I mean every meeting, every time he lied to me, every phone call, what the text messages and emails said, if I have the truth, did they meet after dday, any other communication I don't know about - those kinds of things.

I'm not going to jumble it up in a "4 months when he lost his mind" thing. I need to know the scope of the disrespect, the everything of the betrayal, before I agree to recover with him.

[seren]

I wanted to know everything, I needed to have an idea of what it was, to not have it all, warts and everything else meant I painted pictures in my head based upon what me and H had. Romance, love, respect, the truth was far from it and that was shared by OW and H.

 

Knowing everything meant they had no shared secrets, all was spread out and as hard as it was to hear some stuff, it also meant I was able to make an informed decision based upon what was rather than anything I might imagine. It wasn't easy for any of us, but I have and had no mind movies, no thoughts that what they shared was anything like I would want or accept. It was quite different from what i thought, very destructive and showed that H and OW were two people in a very bad place who engaged in a not so nice time really.

 

I know all A's are as different as all marriages, so be careful what you ask for, be prepared to be hurt by it all, though nothing hurts more than knowing there was an A at all. If you ask for truth, be prepared to listen and don't flip out when you get it. What was, was, what is, is far more important. But that is just my take.

[kart180]

Well knowing everything depends, If my wife wants to know where I am, I really dont mind telling her but too much will just be TOO MUCH for her. Of course would want to know where I am but not every sec of the day

[BetrayedH]

I wanted to know everything, I needed to have an idea of what it was, to not have it all, warts and everything else meant I painted pictures in my head based upon what me and H had. Romance, love, respect, the truth was far from it and that was shared by OW and H.

 

Knowing everything meant they had no shared secrets, all was spread out and as hard as it was to hear some stuff, it also meant I was able to make an informed decision based upon what was rather than anything I might imagine. It wasn't easy for any of us, but I have and had no mind movies, no thoughts that what they shared was anything like I would want or accept. It was quite different from what i thought, very destructive and showed that H and OW were two people in a very bad place who engaged in a not so nice time really.

 

I know all A's are as different as all marriages, so be careful what you ask for, be prepared to be hurt by it all, though nothing hurts more than knowing there was an A at all. If you ask for truth, be prepared to listen and don't flip out when you get it. What was, was, what is, is far more important. But that is just my take.

 

Gotta love when you get you some Seren. Worth reading twice.