Boiling point...

[oldshirt]

Trying to confront her mama bear instincts is NOT the way to get what you want. There are plenty of ways to make it work.

 

 

 

Both of these are good ideas. You have to remember who you were when you were dating too... were you a guy trying to "shut that sh&t down", who got angry and frustrated when you didn't get sex?

 

 

 

.

 

I usually agree with many of Pteromoms posts but she is not taking the child in the bed issue seriously enough in this instance.

 

A two year old sleeping between parents in the marital bed is a very serious and dysfunctional issue on many levels that goes way beyond just being an impediment to normal marital sexuality.

 

"Mother Bear" protectiveness does not apply in this situation as this is not about her "protecting" the child but something much deeper and maladjusted. This is also negatively affecting the child and can cause issues in the child's development and wellbeing as well.

 

In simpler terms, this is also harming the child in addition to negatively impacting the marital sexlife.

 

IMHO this is the #1 issue you have in your family at the moment and needs top priority in fixing.

 

Your wife has an actual dysfunction of some kind taking place here and "talking to her numerous times" is not going to fix it. This needs immediate and decisive intervention and will probably need professional intervention as well. This is harming your child, harming your wife and harming your marriage. As the husband and father of this family, you need to address this. You can't just "talk" to your wife and leave it up to her to fix it. She is past that point and will have a thousand excuses and a thousand justifications on why she needs to continue it.

 

She will likely need to hear it from a professional child therapist tell her to her face why this needs to stop and even then she will resist as strong as she can.

 

Then she will need to hear it from a professional marriage therapist on the harm being done to your marriage and she will still push back.

 

This goes way deeper than just not getting enough loon and the ramifications go far beyond some issues with your sexuality with your wife. Your child can also be harmed by this if this dynamic continues.

 

Priority # 1 needs to be addressing this issue for the wellbeing of everyone.

 

Once that's addressed and corrected, then assuming the sex issue is even still problematic, then you can start addressing the sex issue.

[giotto]

I usually agree with many of Pteromoms posts but she is not taking the child in the bed issue seriously enough in this instance.

 

A two year old sleeping between parents in the marital bed is a very serious and dysfunctional issue on many levels that goes way beyond just being an impediment to normal marital sexuality.

 

"Mother Bear" protectiveness does not apply in this situation as this is not about her "protecting" the child but something much deeper and maladjusted. This is also negatively affecting the child and can cause issues in the child's development and wellbeing as well.

 

In simpler terms, this is also harming the child in addition to negatively impacting the marital sexlife.

 

IMHO this is the #1 issue you have in your family at the moment and needs top priority in fixing.

 

Your wife has an actual dysfunction of some kind taking place here and "talking to her numerous times" is not going to fix it. This needs immediate and decisive intervention and will probably need professional intervention as well. This is harming your child, harming your wife and harming your marriage. As the husband and father of this family, you need to address this. You can't just "talk" to your wife and leave it up to her to fix it. She is past that point and will have a thousand excuses and a thousand justifications on why she needs to continue it.

 

She will likely need to hear it from a professional child therapist tell her to her face why this needs to stop and even then she will resist as strong as she can.

 

Then she will need to hear it from a professional marriage therapist on the harm being done to your marriage and she will still push back.

 

This goes way deeper than just not getting enough loon and the ramifications go far beyond some issues with your sexuality with your wife. Your child can also be harmed by this if this dynamic continues.

 

Priority # 1 needs to be addressing this issue for the wellbeing of everyone.

 

Once that's addressed and corrected, then assuming the sex issue is even still problematic, then you can start addressing the sex issue.

 

you are making a mountain out of a molehill... where does it say that the child sleeps every night in their bed? Nowhere. Being 2, it's very possible he just woke up frightened or he had a nightmare. Assuming things and calling people "maladjusted" and "dysfunctional" without knowing for sure is rather silly, if you allow me to say so... I can tell you are not a woman...

[oldshirt]

 

Kids are 4 and 2...the 2 year old sleeps between us...and I have numerous times told her enough is enough.

 

 

 

 

Giotto - this statement above leads me to believe that the two year old has slept between them on an ongoing basis since birth.

 

There's nothing wrong with occasionally having a family night with the kids and mom and dad all having a camp out in the family room or a kid in the bed for a night when sick or a nightmare etc but a mother insisting on sleeping with a child indefinitely and on an ongoing basis is indicative of much deeper issues.

 

If this child has been basically sleeping in the parents bed nightly as a matter of practice, that is a serious issue on many levels.

 

Cigarsherlock - please clarify if the child sleeping with you is a random and occasional event or is an ongoing regularity. It makes a huge difference.

[giotto]

Giotto - this statement above leads me to believe that the two year old has slept between them on an ongoing basis since birth.

 

There's nothing wrong with occasionally having a family night with the kids and mom and dad all having a camp out in the family room or a kid in the bed for a night when sick or a nightmare etc but a mother insisting on sleeping with a child indefinitely and on an ongoing basis is indicative of much deeper issues.

 

If this child has been basically sleeping in the parents bed nightly as a matter of practice, that is a serious issue on many levels.

 

Cigarsherlock - please clarify if the child sleeping with you is a random and occasional event or is an ongoing regularity. It makes a huge difference.

 

 

ok, missed that bit... I wonder how they manage to have sex once a week, then...

[oldshirt]

 

The porn she knows about, doesn't have a problem with just says that is between me and God. Well I've let God down so many times with that issue it's about making me sick. I get it, wish I could just quit cold turkey but that would make me a monster around here.

 

 

 

 

I see this as priority # 2. This is also an issue on many levels.

 

Even though she says, "it's between you and God.." the truth is it is a major turn off to her and she can't help but lose attraction and desire for you knowing that you are spanking to porn all the time.

 

Some women may like porn when it is something that a couple does together for their mutual excitement and benifit. However any time a man poops himself down in front of a glowing rectangle and entertaines himself, she subconsciously sees him as weak and lazy and inept and she loses desire. Electronic entertainment is a major DLV for men. This also applies to video games, TV etc and yes, even Loveshack (my wife would never have sex with me again if she knew I was on here LOL)

 

- porn adds an extra layer of DLV because you are spanking to an electronic screen by yourself. If you were messing around with a flesh and blood woman she would probably fight tooth and nail for you, but since you are bopping your baloney like a 13 year old, she is instead losing respect and admiration for you.

In her subconscious eyes, you might as well be that fat, pathetic loser in his mom's basement with his underwear down around his ankles every night that can't get a real woman.

 

....cont

[Waverly]

I usually agree with many of Pteromoms posts but she is not taking the child in the bed issue seriously enough in this instance.

 

A two year old sleeping between parents in the marital bed is a very serious and dysfunctional issue on many levels that goes way beyond just being an impediment to normal marital sexuality.

 

"Mother Bear" protectiveness does not apply in this situation as this is not about her "protecting" the child but something much deeper and maladjusted. This is also negatively affecting the child and can cause issues in the child's development and wellbeing as well.

 

In simpler terms, this is also harming the child in addition to negatively impacting the marital sexlife.

 

IMHO this is the #1 issue you have in your family at the moment and needs top priority in fixing.

 

Your wife has an actual dysfunction of some kind taking place here and "talking to her numerous times" is not going to fix it. This needs immediate and decisive intervention and will probably need professional intervention as well. This is harming your child, harming your wife and harming your marriage. As the husband and father of this family, you need to address this. You can't just "talk" to your wife and leave it up to her to fix it. She is past that point and will have a thousand excuses and a thousand justifications on why she needs to continue it.

 

She will likely need to hear it from a professional child therapist tell her to her face why this needs to stop and even then she will resist as strong as she can.

 

Then she will need to hear it from a professional marriage therapist on the harm being done to your marriage and she will still push back.

 

This goes way deeper than just not getting enough loon and the ramifications go far beyond some issues with your sexuality with your wife. Your child can also be harmed by this if this dynamic continues.

 

Priority # 1 needs to be addressing this issue for the wellbeing of everyone.

 

Once that's addressed and corrected, then assuming the sex issue is even still problematic, then you can start addressing the sex issue.

 

This seems like an over-reaction to me. Co-sleeping is pretty normal in a lot of cultures and for a lot of parents. I am not interested in starting a debate on parenting styles, but having a two-year-old sleep next to his/her parents (whether occasionally, part of the night, or other) isn't something that should really merit this level of judgment -- there's no maladjustment or harm being done to the child through this. You make it sound like abuse. It's not. And your statement about "As the husband and father of this family, you need to address this" -- well...I hope I'm reading that wrong, but I really think the wife and mother of the family should have an equal say in things as well. The right answer is different for every family, but it's not unilaterally up to the Man of the Household to take a firm stand and "fix" things.

[oldshirt]

........ porn also affects yourself and affects how you view and relate to your wife and other women.

 

Women have what is called "responsive desire" You can look up the term but in a nutshell it is that women's desire is greatly influenced by men's desire and vigor.

Women often do not feel any attraction or desire for a man unless the man shows desire for them.

 

Porn short-circuits that system. When you spank to porn, you are giving your desire and your sexual energy and your attention to an electronic device and not a real woman. You drain you tank so when you are around your wife you are a calm, tame, obedient puppy dog that lets her cuddle her two year old in bed at night instead of taking care of Big Daddy like the good Lord intended.

 

This "Monster" that you talk about and are trying to keep at bay, is the man Mother Nature intended you to be. Mother Nature wants you to be horny and driven by masculine energy. Mother Nature wants you to build a castle for your queen, go out and slay dragons and bring home the meat by day, and then lay the lumber to the queen and procreate prince's and princesses by night.

 

That doesnt happen when your sperm goes into a wad of tissue in front of an electronic screen at night.

 

Porn also raises your expectations to an unrealistic and unattainable level. Even the porn stars themselves don't have sex lives that come anywhere close to what a guy surfing youporn for an hour will see. Even Ron Jeremy and John Holmes themselves, never had as much sex in one day or screwed as many women in one or had as many orgies in one day as what an hour of surfing porn will show.

 

You are having marital sex on average of once a week with small children in the house. That is darn near a miracle in and of itself.

 

.....cont

[oldshirt]

.....the issue here isn't the frequency of sex. You are getting more than a lot of us here. The issue is the quality and enjoyment and the connection that you two are feeling.

 

Your porn use is a big issue because it is making you feel less desire and appreciation for your wife. And it is making her feel less attraction, respect and admiration for you.

 

Your wife is also having some kind of attachment issue where she is seeking intimacy and comfort from the child in replacement of you in the marital bed.

 

Her having him in between you and her in bed is not just a metaphor, she is intentionally blocking you two from sleeping together and this is not only going to harm your relationship it is going to harm your child if left to continue.

 

IMHO your situation can be remedied and fixed if you act decisively NOW. get into counseling and address the child in bed issue and address the porn issue.

 

Your wife is seeking intimacy and connection through the child in bed. And you are seeking intimacy and connection through porn.

 

Get the kid out of the bed and quit giving your time and attention and desire to an electronic box and your marital sex issues may take care of themselves.

 

None of this will be fixed by talking though. Both issues need action and decisiveness and most likely professional intervention.

[oldshirt]

This seems like an over-reaction to me. Co-sleeping is pretty normal in a lot of cultures and for a lot of parents. I am not interested in starting a debate on parenting styles, but having a two-year-old sleep next to his/her parents (whether occasionally, part of the night, or other) isn't something that should really merit this level of judgment -- there's no maladjustment or harm being done to the child through this. You make it sound like abuse. It's not. And your statement about "As the husband and father of this family, you need to address this" -- well...I hope I'm reading that wrong, but I really think the wife and mother of the family should have an equal say in things as well. The right answer is different for every family, but it's not unilaterally up to the Man of the Household to take a firm stand and "fix" things.

 

Some of this depends on if the child in the bed is an occasional event or an ongoing practice. We are waiting for Cigarsherlock to clarify that.

 

If this is an occasional, infrequent and random event, then I agree with you.

 

However if the mother is insisting on the child sleeping between them all night, every night on an indefinite and ongoing basis, then it is a dysfunction on her part in which case she loses her equal say in the matter and it will be his responsibility to take corrective measures.

 

This is about matter of degrees. If she is placing the child between them on an ongoing basis for no valid reason, it is a dysfunction and it is up to the other person to set boundaries and limitations.

 

This is like If some is a cutter and is slicing their bodies with knives all the time, they waive their right to have an equal say in where the knives are stored in the house and who gets to carry them, or if someone is a puritanical and is setting fires, they lose their equal say in who gets to keep the matches and gasoline.

Edited June 13, 2014 by oldshirt

[Cigarsherlock]

To clarify about my two year old..yes he has slept between us since about 7 weeks old. Oldshirt: I find it interesting that you compare me to a 13 year old spanking the monkey for the first time when millions of men struggle with Porn addictions. And masterbation is practiced by most I would imagine, just not with the use of pictures on an electronic device. I already explained how I feel about it and that the issue is my worst character vice. I also want to apologize and clarify that this isn't all about sex. By intimacy I mean she doesn't touch me, show me affection etc..and I get that she just bore two children..I was there. I worry because I don't want to be alone in a marriage for the rest of my days. Women enjoy conversation, guess it would be similar if I just never spoke to her. Just a comparison to help show how I feel.

[Cigarsherlock]

Oh and I forgot to add she presented research about kids sleeping in the parents beds..it was supportive material. Just depends on the author these days. I put him upstairs last night and will continue to do so.

[oldshirt]

To clarify about my two year old..yes he has slept between us since about 7 weeks old.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

This will spark debate and it is something that is debated amongst the child development professionals.

 

This is why I think it is such an issue in this particular case. I believe she is using the child as a shield against you. Perhaps not consciously but I think she is insisting on the child between you as a shield against intimacy with you.

 

That is an issue and will negatively affect your relationship as well as negatively affect the child even if children sleeping with parents isn't that bad of a thing otherwise.

 

If she is strongly defending a two year old between you all the time indefinitely, this is the hill to die on and is justification for counseling.

[oldshirt]

 

 

Oldshirt: I find it interesting that you compare me to a 13 year old spanking the monkey for the first time when millions of men struggle with Porn addictions. And masterbation is practiced by most I would imagine, just not with the use of pictures on an electronic device. I already explained how I feel about it and that the issue is my worst character vice.

 

 

 

.

 

I'm not calling you a 13 year old. I'm saying that your wife's subconscious is probably seeing you as one and is causing her to lose respect for you as an adult man, husband and father. Women cannot desire or sexually respond to men they cannot respect and admire.

 

I don't care how enlightened a woman thinks she is or how much she says it's ok with her if her man way he's porn and spanks, when he actually does it, she loses respect and then attraction for him.

 

Many couples can get away with for awhile if it is random and occasional. However if it is chronic and ongoing, she will lose respect and attraction and will cause resentment and disgust eventually.

 

This may be going hand-in-hand with the child in the bed issue. She may have lost respect and sincere desire for you way down deep in her psyche and so she shields herself with the child in bed.

 

But her logical, thinking brain knows you'll leave without sex so she sets aside some time to put out some duty sex every week or so and lays there and watches the lock tick.

 

These are serious issues and do need to be addressed for both of your sakes.

[oldshirt]

I want to add one more thing real quick. I realize my position on these things are going to generate some defensiveness in many people because we all let our kids sleep in our beds from time to time (me included and my wife would have them in our bed untill college if it were up to her) and we all like some porn (i love certain kinds of porn. My wife likes Brazilian porn) now and then and everyone masturbates at times.

 

But this is a matter of degrees and the impact that it has.

 

An occasional spank is good for us and doesn't hurt anyone else. A little porn is a good pick me up at times. And having an occasional sleep over in mom and dads bed is usually no problem.

 

But when these things become chronic and ongoing and are used to avoid intimacy with our spouse and become used as substitutes for healthy connection and interactions, they become very dysfunctional and harmful and need to be addressed and perhaps even professional intervention is required.

[giotto]

I wouldn't have a child sleeping in our bed at his age... our children slept in our bed until 6 months old and then to their own bedroom! Having said that, there is a school of thought that promotes this kind of upbringing, and your wife obviously seems to share this view.

 

About porn and masturbation: some wives are actually happy about these... so their husbands don't bother them too much... I think, without masturbation, I would have left years ago...

[atreides]

Cigar, would you consider your use of porn as a reaction to the lack of sexual intimacy?

 

I ask because i know of quite a few couples where children are allowed in the marital bed. Porn became an outlet no matter how hard the husbands fought. I have been present to arguments at social gatherings where the wives fought vigorously to keep the child in the bed with them. Those men used Porn as a reaction to sexually vent.

 

The same women, in front of me mind you actually counter argued their husbands to attempted romantic advances by their husbands in favor of being a mother and keeping the child in the bed as something obligatory.

 

To me it is a HUGE no no. I have had a little fight in my years with when my kids were little they would fall asleep but then be moved to their room but our children never slept with us in the bed. I would never allow it, it is an immovable point with me but my wife never really made it an issue to fight back.

 

It's not so much a child abuse issue to me but the learned trait of independence to me, just my opinion.

No, it is more an issue with keeping things romantic and the married couple strong. It is the vacation within the home child free to be a couple.

 

If that is the case, i don't think anything subconscious is going on but she does know about the porn vs the other men who keep it to themselves. It may end up being a vicious cycle but i am curious if your wife fits the profile of the couples i described above. In my social circles those couples have sex very rarely, heck one let their child sleep with them into preteen years. I think sex was once in 4 months for them, if that.

Edited June 13, 2014 by atreides

[giotto]

In my social circles those couples have sex very rarely, heck one let their child sleep with them into preteen years. I think sex was once in 4 months for them, if that.

 

 

I know a woman who breastfed her child until he was 6... her husband was an alcoholic... I wonder why...

[oldshirt]

I wouldn't have a child sleeping in our bed at his age... our children slept in our bed until 6 months old and then to their own bedroom! Having said that, there is a school of thought that promotes this kind of upbringing, and your wife obviously seems to share this view.

 

does she share that view or does she just want something between her and him to avoid contact with him????

 

About porn and masturbation: some wives are actually happy about these... so their husbands don't bother them too much... I think, without masturbation, I would have left years ago...

 

proves my point. If she'd rather have him spank than be with her, then there's a big problem.

 

 

 

Response above in bold

[Hattie]

I have been staying away from LS for a bit...but darn that oldshirt! Couldn't help but log in on this one!!

I am not going to quote all of what Oldshirt wrote...but yay! Spot on about the porn!

I am past small children and babies....but I am a mom and NOWAY would I have let them in my bed regularly! Strictly because I needed my own time/space...even if it was at night in bed. Important me time...and with or without sex, it was always good just to be in bed alone with my husband.

Back to the porn; good for you in realizing or admitting that porn may not be good or healthy! Stay on track with that. That realization is more than half the battle. Don't let 10 or 15 more years of that go by! Get a grip on it now.

I can speak from the other side as a woman. I let the porn go in my marriage....my libido slipped a bit after having the kids....motherhood can be quite unsexy! I was super busy....so husband 'bopping the bologna' was tolerated. I never liked it, but at least he could curb the urges at home without the use of another woman!

Fast forward....kids are grown. I am in my sexual prime!!! So excited to empty nest and enjoy my sexual relationship with my husband with no kiddos knocking on that door!!!!

Guess what!?!?! Hubby has porn induced erectile dysfunction! His mind is programmed/wired for porn, he can go all day on porn but limp noodle with me.

To my dismay, my empty nester/sexual primed years will be spent with the 13-year old in the basement with knickers around his ankles utilizing that box of Kleenex! (Figuratively)

Hindsight....I would have stopped that nonsense 15 years ago!

[SoleMate]

The urges to have marital sex on the part of the husband are actually similar in a very broad sense to the urges that a new mother has to keep her children close to her and nurture them. They are both deeply ingrained urges given to us by nature. Fulfilling them provides tremendous satisfaction and oxytocin.dopamine.endorphin pleasures and not having a chance to fulfill them can result in anger, anxiety, and/or sadness. Mother (?) Nature basically set us all up with this system of inherent conflict. The solution is for each party to understand the strength of the other's feelings and needs and work as a team to get all needs met. Again, check out the book because Michele provides all the facts and techniques needed.

 

As much as I'm a mommy who loved intensely to snuggle her babies in bed, I have to agree that a 2-year-old in our culture should not routinely sleep in the parents' bed. Co-sleeping was near universal and worked great for the people of Çatal Hüyük in 8000 BC, as well as most pre-industrial peoples and even modern Japan. However, they all had different expectations about the relative importance of maternal and marital intimacy compared to the modern Western world. Co-sleeping today is just too big of a barrier to our expected marital intimacy without which a happy marriage and family cannot survive. (Not saying the transition is going to be pretty.....2 year old is now completely habituated to the comfort of the parents' bed. You'll need a book for that and prepare for a few uncomfortable nights.)

[Ultramarine]

I see this as priority # 2. This is also an issue on many levels.

 

Even though she says, "it's between you and God.." the truth is it is a major turn off to her and she can't help but lose attraction and desire for you knowing that you are spanking to porn all the time.

 

Some women may like porn when it is something that a couple does together for their mutual excitement and benifit. However any time a man poops himself down in front of a glowing rectangle and entertaines himself, she subconsciously sees him as weak and lazy and inept and she loses desire. Electronic entertainment is a major DLV for men. This also applies to video games, TV etc and yes, even Loveshack (my wife would never have sex with me again if she knew I was on here LOL)

 

- porn adds an extra layer of DLV because you are spanking to an electronic screen by yourself. If you were messing around with a flesh and blood woman she would probably fight tooth and nail for you, but since you are bopping your baloney like a 13 year old, she is instead losing respect and admiration for you.

In her subconscious eyes, you might as well be that fat, pathetic loser in his mom's basement with his underwear down around his ankles every night that can't get a real woman.

 

....cont

 

I could not agree more. Videogames are an instant turn off. Porn together may be fun. If we are apart and you are just taking care of yourself, fine, I will probably do it, too. But if we are in the same house and you entertain yourself at the screen while I'm sleeping or showering...Seriously? Why should I even try? You want sex, come get it from a real girl.

 

I've told my husband something along these lines and his usual answer is "Well, YOU are not doing anything anyway..."

[Got it]

I want to add one more thing real quick. I realize my position on these things are going to generate some defensiveness in many people because we all let our kids sleep in our beds from time to time (me included and my wife would have them in our bed untill college if it were up to her) and we all like some porn (i love certain kinds of porn. My wife likes Brazilian porn) now and then and everyone masturbates at times.

 

But this is a matter of degrees and the impact that it has.

 

An occasional spank is good for us and doesn't hurt anyone else. A little porn is a good pick me up at times. And having an occasional sleep over in mom and dads bed is usually no problem.

 

But when these things become chronic and ongoing and are used to avoid intimacy with our spouse and become used as substitutes for healthy connection and interactions, they become very dysfunctional and harmful and need to be addressed and perhaps even professional intervention is required.

 

But he isn't saying this. He is saying he is using porn so much BECAUSE his wife doesn't want to have sex with him. So it is a poor substitute.

 

And I really disagree about your assumptions about his wife and her views on his porn use. I have never thought poorly of any man that I have been with watching porn. It doesn't bother me. For all you know his wife is HAPPY he is watching poor because he can get his needs met that way and she doesn't have to actively confront the issue of their sex life. It gets him off her back so she can focus on other things.

 

 

I know my husband watches porn and I have no issues with it. I know he is very attracted to me and would rather have sex with me (and watch porn with girls that look like me) but due to time, travel, etc. us having sex doesn't always work out.

 

OP - I think counseling is needed as I stated above. I wonder if your wife may be avoiding it right now because at this time in her life it isn't a priority and isn't realizing the potential issue of that continuing down the road. I know that for women, myself included, it is hard to get your head back in the game but once you have it you are happy you did.

 

I like another posters suggestion about really hashing out the details and seeing if you can come to a happy medium. For some it is helping around the house, for others it is about other needs. Another poster talked about more "shades of grey" type things which another poster said. You guys are a team and need to priority each other's needs. A counselor will be able to help with it. It is a common problem but if you can find a happy medium you are light years beyond many.

[2sunny]

I know a woman who breastfed her child until he was 6... her husband was an alcoholic... I wonder why...

 

This wouldn't be the cause of alcoholism.

 

Back on topic. OP - have you had an honest talk in the past few days with your spouse about changing things?

[ConfusedMarriedOW]

Sex is all about the "not knowing what will come next" give her massages, yes, but give her massages that only go near the good bits and pull away. Make her beg.

[ConfusedMarriedOW]

Take the sex up in steps, don't expect every other day at first, ask for twice a week and more experimental.

 

She needs to realize that although she CAN ignore your needs, it likely isn't in her best interest. Infidelity happens when someone is terribly unsatisfied for a very long time. Not saying it is justified, but it is just reality.

 

In some cultures sex is considered a health requirement